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Interview With Author Ed Hotaling

Aired December 15, 2003 - 15:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In Iraq, where Islam is the principal religion -- I don't think we need to tell you that at this point -- two divisions of the faith may fall into a power struggle with the capture of Saddam Hussein. The Sunni Muslims, who live mostly in the center of Iraq, have aligned themselves with Saddam, who is a Sunni Muslim. The Shia, or Shiite Muslims, who staged an unsuccessful coup against Saddam in '91, are holding positions of power in post-war Iraq as well.
Ed Hotaling is author of the book "Islam Without Illusions." He joins us from Washington to sort of give us a sense of what lies ahead.

Ed, good to have you back with us.

ED HOTALING, "ISLAM WITHOUT ILLUSIONS: Hi Miles.

O'BRIEN: First of all, Sunni or Shia? Just for a moment, if you would, put me in the sense -- or from the viewpoint of the Arab street, so to speak. When they see those images of Saddam Hussein, disheveled, bewildered and being examined, "open up and say ah" and so forth, how does that play?

HOTALING: Well, it doesn't quite play the way many people in the West think it will play, because this man has been sought and a fugitive for something like eight months. So it's not unusual that he would be in rough shape or that he would be unshaven.

And even, you know, the idea that he was living in a hole in the ground, this has another image sometimes within Islamic countries, because even the prophet Mohammed, for example, when he was being chased by the Meccans, as he sought to establish as a religion, he hid in a cave. So it doesn't really work to say that -- in Islam, to say that Hussein had to live in a rat hole, as we've been saying, or that bin Laden has been hiding in caves. Caves have a different meaning in Islam.

O'BRIEN: Well, viewed through the prism of Islam, the fact that Saddam Hussein did not go down with guns blazing, that is viewed with askance, isn't it?

HOTALING: Well, we look at that, too, somewhat from a Western point of view, because suicide is not accepted in Islam. The terrorists have said that suicide to them is martyrdom. And you can find examples of martyrdom in the Quran.

But this wasn't a situation where Saddam was going to attempt in this one encounter any sort of martyrdom. What he wanted was to do clearly was to extend his life, and possibly more than that. Possibly in his state of denial he thought the longer he could hang around, the better chance he would have of political survival.

O'BRIEN: All right. Now, the Sunni and Shia rift is something that is deep-rooted. Many centuries old. And in many ways, transcends this moment by a long shot. But the fact that Saddam Hussein is absent, does that in any way -- does it embolden the Sunnis to fight harder to maintain their piece of the pie in Iraq, or are they apt to sort of allow some sort of cooperation with the Shias?

HOTALING: Well, the thought here had been in Washington -- had been that it would weaken the Sunnis because their figurehead, even if he was not in command operationally, that he was at least a figurehead. But as you've pointed out, he has had several pro-Saddam demonstrations in the past few hours.

And there was a car bombing just 12 hours after he was captured in Kardiyah (ph), west of Baghdad, where they car bombed the police station, killed several people, and later some of the Sunnis put on a demonstration carrying one of the bodies and saying, "God is great, America is the enemy of god." So it isn't an easy matter to dispense with the Sunnis.

On the other hand, with the Shiites, it may actually improve American relations and American dealings with the Shiites who, of course, have had their own causes for hatred of Saddam.

O'BRIEN: All right. And just a quick final thought here. Lots more talk these days about the artificial boundaries that are Iraq, drawn after World War I by the Brits. Do you see any sort of three- state solution here?

HOTALING: Well, they could be looking for that. But I think that's farther ahead.

You know, the president said the immediate threat is not only in Iraq, but it's around the world now with the terrorist threat heightened. And as you can imagine, the holiday period through the new year is going to see international airports, for example, at their highest security alerts in history.

O'BRIEN: All right. Ed Hotaling is the author of the book "Islam Without illusions." There it is right there. There's the graphic.

Thanks very much for being with us, Ed. We'll see you again soon.

HOTALING: Thank you, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 15, 2003 - 15:07   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In Iraq, where Islam is the principal religion -- I don't think we need to tell you that at this point -- two divisions of the faith may fall into a power struggle with the capture of Saddam Hussein. The Sunni Muslims, who live mostly in the center of Iraq, have aligned themselves with Saddam, who is a Sunni Muslim. The Shia, or Shiite Muslims, who staged an unsuccessful coup against Saddam in '91, are holding positions of power in post-war Iraq as well.
Ed Hotaling is author of the book "Islam Without Illusions." He joins us from Washington to sort of give us a sense of what lies ahead.

Ed, good to have you back with us.

ED HOTALING, "ISLAM WITHOUT ILLUSIONS: Hi Miles.

O'BRIEN: First of all, Sunni or Shia? Just for a moment, if you would, put me in the sense -- or from the viewpoint of the Arab street, so to speak. When they see those images of Saddam Hussein, disheveled, bewildered and being examined, "open up and say ah" and so forth, how does that play?

HOTALING: Well, it doesn't quite play the way many people in the West think it will play, because this man has been sought and a fugitive for something like eight months. So it's not unusual that he would be in rough shape or that he would be unshaven.

And even, you know, the idea that he was living in a hole in the ground, this has another image sometimes within Islamic countries, because even the prophet Mohammed, for example, when he was being chased by the Meccans, as he sought to establish as a religion, he hid in a cave. So it doesn't really work to say that -- in Islam, to say that Hussein had to live in a rat hole, as we've been saying, or that bin Laden has been hiding in caves. Caves have a different meaning in Islam.

O'BRIEN: Well, viewed through the prism of Islam, the fact that Saddam Hussein did not go down with guns blazing, that is viewed with askance, isn't it?

HOTALING: Well, we look at that, too, somewhat from a Western point of view, because suicide is not accepted in Islam. The terrorists have said that suicide to them is martyrdom. And you can find examples of martyrdom in the Quran.

But this wasn't a situation where Saddam was going to attempt in this one encounter any sort of martyrdom. What he wanted was to do clearly was to extend his life, and possibly more than that. Possibly in his state of denial he thought the longer he could hang around, the better chance he would have of political survival.

O'BRIEN: All right. Now, the Sunni and Shia rift is something that is deep-rooted. Many centuries old. And in many ways, transcends this moment by a long shot. But the fact that Saddam Hussein is absent, does that in any way -- does it embolden the Sunnis to fight harder to maintain their piece of the pie in Iraq, or are they apt to sort of allow some sort of cooperation with the Shias?

HOTALING: Well, the thought here had been in Washington -- had been that it would weaken the Sunnis because their figurehead, even if he was not in command operationally, that he was at least a figurehead. But as you've pointed out, he has had several pro-Saddam demonstrations in the past few hours.

And there was a car bombing just 12 hours after he was captured in Kardiyah (ph), west of Baghdad, where they car bombed the police station, killed several people, and later some of the Sunnis put on a demonstration carrying one of the bodies and saying, "God is great, America is the enemy of god." So it isn't an easy matter to dispense with the Sunnis.

On the other hand, with the Shiites, it may actually improve American relations and American dealings with the Shiites who, of course, have had their own causes for hatred of Saddam.

O'BRIEN: All right. And just a quick final thought here. Lots more talk these days about the artificial boundaries that are Iraq, drawn after World War I by the Brits. Do you see any sort of three- state solution here?

HOTALING: Well, they could be looking for that. But I think that's farther ahead.

You know, the president said the immediate threat is not only in Iraq, but it's around the world now with the terrorist threat heightened. And as you can imagine, the holiday period through the new year is going to see international airports, for example, at their highest security alerts in history.

O'BRIEN: All right. Ed Hotaling is the author of the book "Islam Without illusions." There it is right there. There's the graphic.

Thanks very much for being with us, Ed. We'll see you again soon.

HOTALING: Thank you, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com