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Saddam Continuing to Hold Out

Aired December 17, 2003 - 14:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: He's been described as being either aloof or a wiseass and Saddam Hussein's been showing some of his former arrogance with his U.S. interrogators. What tactics are they likely to use to get him to cave in and even talk? CNN contributor Kelly McCann is a former U.S. Marine specializing in counterterrorism, he's now a private security consultant. He join us live out of Baghdad. Good to see you, Kelly.
KELLY MCCANN, CNN ANALYST: Hi, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You have been known to do a number of interrogations, I guess we could say. I want to talk to you about the tactics here. As we've been reading about how interrogators are dealing with Saddam Hussein, I mean -- how forthcoming can you be with us? And be realistic with us. Can you really talk with a man like this? How do you establish rapport and how far can you go on the record or off the record?

MCCANN: Well, you know, Kyra, you can talk to a person like this but you have to be deferential and still get the mission accomplished. That's the interesting thing.

The comment about him being a wiseass, totally predictable. If you think about it here's a former head of state, good or bad. And now he's being questioned by an Army sergeant, an NCO, a well-intended young man who needs to get just basic health information from him.

So you can imagine he didn't want to talk to people like that in his own regime, let alone someone who came to this country and basically took it over. So very, very much predicted.

What they did, Kyra, basically was a health index. Checked his First they general health index, see if he had any problems that might interfere with an interrogation. You don't want to start that with an unhealthy person.

Than what they'll do is they'll actually assess personality. They'll send a team of people in to talk to him, and try to define exactly what are his soft spots, his hot buttons, if you will. That team won't do the interrogation. They'll hand that information over to an interrogation team, who will then kind of make an architecture or structure of how they'll proceed with the interrogation.

And that could be something as simple as pain/pleasure. In other words, he gets bedding when he speaks, he gets no bedding when he doesn't speak. It could also be deferential treatment, where they actually go to his ego and allow that he was the former president and treat him with quasi or pseudo respect, in order to get information. Very interesting process -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, part of that process is, I mean is this something that could get a taste of his own medicine? I mean, behind closed doors -- could it happen that he could get roughed up a little bit?

MCCANN: Not at the hands of the U.S. I mean, you know, it's -- the thing that makes a lot of stress and friction and anxiety in the interrogation process is the not knowing.

And I'm sure that him not knowing what his fate will be -- will he be turned over to the Iraqi people, something that I'm sure he has no interest in happening. Will he be taken out of the country to the Hague? Will he two to the United States? Or will he go to the United States that might not have those same kind of restrictions on interrogations? Surely will create friction. And I'm sure that will be used against him -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: The fact that he didn't resist, the fact that he didn't put up a fight, what does that tell you, as a former Marine, about somebody like this when it comes to interrogation? Is it likely he'll 'fess up, wuss out?

MCCANN: I'll answer in two ways, Kyra. I spoke to a very senior intelligence official here today, an old friend of mine. He had a talk with a tradesman. Basically he was talking to just Iraqi people and trying to sense what they felt about this.

And that person said from the time he was a child he was told, you fight to the death. And in the Iran/Iraq war many people lost their fathers and their cousins and their uncles and their grandfathers because they did fight to the death.

And what that tradesman said to this man -- and Saddam acted like a girl. He gave up. That really shows you -- here is a person who is a traders worker, he was a mason. A complete and total loss of respect for a man that, good or bad, was the country's leader. So interesting kind of thing happening here, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Kelly, for the record be we know there's a lot of girls that are a lot stronger than Saddam Hussein.

MCCANN: That wasn't a sexist comment at all. Basically what it was, it was just an indication of that kind of right and left opinion. You know what I mean?

PHILLIPS: I know what you're saying. Still, my final question, Kelly, the search for the king of clubs, the king of hearts, specifically his cohort, longtime confidant, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri. What's the likelihood that Saddam will fess up where these individuals are and do you think he could possibly not even know where they are?

MCCANN: Based on his actions, I'm not sure he has a lot of loyalty to anybody else but Saddam. I think he expected loyalty from everybody else. Will he roll over with other -- for other people, for personal comfort and personal gain? I think that will probably be the case. I think that he's seeking or will try to seek the best deal for Saddam like he did before, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: I can you what. If you were interrogating him I know we'd get everything that we needed. Kelly McCann from Baghdad, thank you.

MCCANN: Thanks, Kyra.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired December 17, 2003 - 14:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: He's been described as being either aloof or a wiseass and Saddam Hussein's been showing some of his former arrogance with his U.S. interrogators. What tactics are they likely to use to get him to cave in and even talk? CNN contributor Kelly McCann is a former U.S. Marine specializing in counterterrorism, he's now a private security consultant. He join us live out of Baghdad. Good to see you, Kelly.
KELLY MCCANN, CNN ANALYST: Hi, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You have been known to do a number of interrogations, I guess we could say. I want to talk to you about the tactics here. As we've been reading about how interrogators are dealing with Saddam Hussein, I mean -- how forthcoming can you be with us? And be realistic with us. Can you really talk with a man like this? How do you establish rapport and how far can you go on the record or off the record?

MCCANN: Well, you know, Kyra, you can talk to a person like this but you have to be deferential and still get the mission accomplished. That's the interesting thing.

The comment about him being a wiseass, totally predictable. If you think about it here's a former head of state, good or bad. And now he's being questioned by an Army sergeant, an NCO, a well-intended young man who needs to get just basic health information from him.

So you can imagine he didn't want to talk to people like that in his own regime, let alone someone who came to this country and basically took it over. So very, very much predicted.

What they did, Kyra, basically was a health index. Checked his First they general health index, see if he had any problems that might interfere with an interrogation. You don't want to start that with an unhealthy person.

Than what they'll do is they'll actually assess personality. They'll send a team of people in to talk to him, and try to define exactly what are his soft spots, his hot buttons, if you will. That team won't do the interrogation. They'll hand that information over to an interrogation team, who will then kind of make an architecture or structure of how they'll proceed with the interrogation.

And that could be something as simple as pain/pleasure. In other words, he gets bedding when he speaks, he gets no bedding when he doesn't speak. It could also be deferential treatment, where they actually go to his ego and allow that he was the former president and treat him with quasi or pseudo respect, in order to get information. Very interesting process -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, part of that process is, I mean is this something that could get a taste of his own medicine? I mean, behind closed doors -- could it happen that he could get roughed up a little bit?

MCCANN: Not at the hands of the U.S. I mean, you know, it's -- the thing that makes a lot of stress and friction and anxiety in the interrogation process is the not knowing.

And I'm sure that him not knowing what his fate will be -- will he be turned over to the Iraqi people, something that I'm sure he has no interest in happening. Will he be taken out of the country to the Hague? Will he two to the United States? Or will he go to the United States that might not have those same kind of restrictions on interrogations? Surely will create friction. And I'm sure that will be used against him -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: The fact that he didn't resist, the fact that he didn't put up a fight, what does that tell you, as a former Marine, about somebody like this when it comes to interrogation? Is it likely he'll 'fess up, wuss out?

MCCANN: I'll answer in two ways, Kyra. I spoke to a very senior intelligence official here today, an old friend of mine. He had a talk with a tradesman. Basically he was talking to just Iraqi people and trying to sense what they felt about this.

And that person said from the time he was a child he was told, you fight to the death. And in the Iran/Iraq war many people lost their fathers and their cousins and their uncles and their grandfathers because they did fight to the death.

And what that tradesman said to this man -- and Saddam acted like a girl. He gave up. That really shows you -- here is a person who is a traders worker, he was a mason. A complete and total loss of respect for a man that, good or bad, was the country's leader. So interesting kind of thing happening here, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Kelly, for the record be we know there's a lot of girls that are a lot stronger than Saddam Hussein.

MCCANN: That wasn't a sexist comment at all. Basically what it was, it was just an indication of that kind of right and left opinion. You know what I mean?

PHILLIPS: I know what you're saying. Still, my final question, Kelly, the search for the king of clubs, the king of hearts, specifically his cohort, longtime confidant, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri. What's the likelihood that Saddam will fess up where these individuals are and do you think he could possibly not even know where they are?

MCCANN: Based on his actions, I'm not sure he has a lot of loyalty to anybody else but Saddam. I think he expected loyalty from everybody else. Will he roll over with other -- for other people, for personal comfort and personal gain? I think that will probably be the case. I think that he's seeking or will try to seek the best deal for Saddam like he did before, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: I can you what. If you were interrogating him I know we'd get everything that we needed. Kelly McCann from Baghdad, thank you.

MCCANN: Thanks, Kyra.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com