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Win, Lose or Show: The Democrats Debate

Aired January 12, 2004 - 14:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former Bush Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill has given Democrats a bone to chew, and chew they did during last night's Iowa debate. In a book describing a rocky couple of years in the Bush cabinet, O'Neill says as far as he knew there was never any evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And he says the Bush administration was planning to get rid of Saddam Hussein almost from day one. The book was written by former "Wall Street Journal" reporter Ron Suskind, and it's called "The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill."
Well joining us to talk about that and other matters relating to the campaign, Democratic Strategist Kirsten Powers and Republican Strategist Cheri Jacobus.

Good to have you both with us.

Jacobus, I apologize.

CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hi. There you go. Thanks.

O'BRIEN: All right. Cheri, first of all, the debate last night, and we counted them up, depending on how you count them, whether you call them a forum or a debate or whatever, at least a dozen of them. Are we past the interest -- the attention span, I should say, of any voter, even in Iowa?

JACOBUS: I think so. You know these debates have become in some ways indistinguishable from one another. And if it weren't for the little word "live" in the top of my -- on the corner of my TV screen, I couldn't tell one from the other.

Last night was a little bit more interesting. They're getting kind of desperate. And it sounds like they're all trying to paint the other candidates as racists. So that at least made it somewhat different. But it's -- I mean we've got a dozen of these. Come on already, nobody is coming up with anything new.

O'BRIEN: Here's the -- here was the most interesting moment, to my mind, as long as you talk about this whole issue of people trying to paint others as racist, Carol Moseley Braun referring to Al Sharpton and talking to him.

Here is what she had to say about him as he attacked Dean for being racist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What are you going to do to bring people together, because this country cannot afford a racial screaming match?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to respond.

AL SHARPTON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think -- I think...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: All right. Kirsten, I guess the only person on that stage who could call Sharpton a racist was Carol Moseley Braun, of course. What is her strategy there, do you think?

KIRSTEN POWERS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what her strategy is really for even being in the race. So I'm not going to venture a guess of what she was doing last night.

I think that the race issue was brought front and center, first by Al Sharpton, and it's an important issue. And it's good that they're bringing it up in these debates and we're having a chance to talk about it. He kind of, I think, a little bit unfairly attacked Dean, although this has been a part of what Dean is dealing with, which is the daily trial of having to explain his past comments.

O'BRIEN: Well you know it's interesting, because up to this moment, Howard Dean, I think, has been -- I think we universally agree, both sides of the aisle, has been pretty graceful at deflecting that kind of stuff as the other eight go after him or seven or however many are there. Cheri, it seemed like he took a few body blows last night. Would you go along with that?

JACOBUS: You know I don't know. It depends how the viewer perceives it. I personally don't think that there should be a quota system in any governor's office. Vermont is 98 percent white. He says he had a senior staff member who was a minority and Al Sharpton decided on his own that that wasn't good enough. I said good for Carol Moseley Braun for jumping in there and sort of being the grown up in that situation. I actually think that Al Sharpton's attack on Dean on that instance was a little bit unfair.

O'BRIEN: What is Carol Moseley Braun's motivation, do you think, is she going for a cabinet slot or VP type thing? Who knows?

JACOBUS: You know I think that her performance has been consistent throughout all of the debates and clearly she doesn't have a prayer at the nomination. But she tends to be sort of the voice of reason when some of these candidates become so desperate they're grasping at straws to find anything that they can beat the other candidates over the head with. And she typically jumps in and sort of sets everybody straight. So I think her motivation is just that this might be who she is as a person and as a candidate.

O'BRIEN: Yes, and we've kind of seen that time and again, she kind of scolds them like a teacher would almost practically. All right, let's talk about this O'Neill thing. Kirsten, put this in perspective, if you can, O'Neill's statements, is it really going to change anybody's mind given the fact that people have very strong opinions about the war in Iraq already, fairly well baked in to this whole race?

POWERS: Well I think what this does is it's just more evidence to support what Democrats have been saying all along and that is important. It fits into a larger pattern of the Bush administration misleading and lying. And now we have one of their members of the cabinet coming out and confirming that they really were obsessed with Saddam Hussein, totally, separately from 9/11 and even though they have linked the two together.

O'BRIEN: Right. But will it move voters?

POWERS: And it will also help...

O'BRIEN: Will it really move voters -- Kirsten?

POWERS: Well, no, I don't think in itself it would move a voter. But like I said, it is part of a pattern. And I think in the beginning when Democrats were complaining, people were sort of saying you're crazy, that's ridiculous. And now what we have happening is consistently getting information about the Bush administration that supports what the Democrats were saying, which is that they're not telling the truth and that they -- you know that they are -- they're -- we have this evidence now that they were going to go and get Saddam no matter what happened and it had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. And this is what Democrats have been saying. And so I think that each time, you know, it's confirmed, it does chip away at Bush.

O'BRIEN: Cheri, would you go along with that?

JACOBUS: You know I...

O'BRIEN: Does Paul O'Neill add up to anything in the grand course of this campaign?

JACOBUS: No. And I -- and I think you have to be very careful with that word confirmed. He has not confirmed anything. He is an ousted former cabinet member, somewhat disgruntled, and he basically wants to hurt this president. Nobody's mind is going to be changed. You know it might even have some weight if he had come out and said this before the Democrats were saying this. But you know he's a former treasury secretary. I don't think he was privy to the same information that Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice were privy to. Remember Bill Clinton said that his intelligence said there...

POWERS: He provided 19,000 documents.

O'BRIEN: All right. Final thought, Kirsten, then we've got to go.

POWERS: And someone (ph) -- there is going to be an investigation on that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Final thought, go ahead.

POWERS: I was saying you know it's not just his word, it's -- he provided 19,000 documents to a very respected journalist who reviewed these documents. There are memos that show that what he is saying is in fact true.

JACOBUS: That is not true.

POWERS: So as much as the Bush administration and Republicans want to smear him and do one of their regular smear campaigns, that's not going to take away from the fact that there are 19,000 documents showing...

JACOBUS: Kirsten, there is really no evidence of that. This is every administration had a contingency plan for these.

POWERS: ... they were -- they were obsessed with Saddam Hussein.

O'BRIEN: All right. All right. Let's -- all right. We're going to leave it at that.

Ladies, thank you very much.

JACOBUS: Thank you.

POWERS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Cheri Jacobus and Kirsten Powers talking about the debate and the presidential season which is officially upon us one week from today. Thank you very much for being with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 12, 2004 - 14:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former Bush Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill has given Democrats a bone to chew, and chew they did during last night's Iowa debate. In a book describing a rocky couple of years in the Bush cabinet, O'Neill says as far as he knew there was never any evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And he says the Bush administration was planning to get rid of Saddam Hussein almost from day one. The book was written by former "Wall Street Journal" reporter Ron Suskind, and it's called "The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill."
Well joining us to talk about that and other matters relating to the campaign, Democratic Strategist Kirsten Powers and Republican Strategist Cheri Jacobus.

Good to have you both with us.

Jacobus, I apologize.

CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hi. There you go. Thanks.

O'BRIEN: All right. Cheri, first of all, the debate last night, and we counted them up, depending on how you count them, whether you call them a forum or a debate or whatever, at least a dozen of them. Are we past the interest -- the attention span, I should say, of any voter, even in Iowa?

JACOBUS: I think so. You know these debates have become in some ways indistinguishable from one another. And if it weren't for the little word "live" in the top of my -- on the corner of my TV screen, I couldn't tell one from the other.

Last night was a little bit more interesting. They're getting kind of desperate. And it sounds like they're all trying to paint the other candidates as racists. So that at least made it somewhat different. But it's -- I mean we've got a dozen of these. Come on already, nobody is coming up with anything new.

O'BRIEN: Here's the -- here was the most interesting moment, to my mind, as long as you talk about this whole issue of people trying to paint others as racist, Carol Moseley Braun referring to Al Sharpton and talking to him.

Here is what she had to say about him as he attacked Dean for being racist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What are you going to do to bring people together, because this country cannot afford a racial screaming match?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to respond.

AL SHARPTON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think -- I think...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: All right. Kirsten, I guess the only person on that stage who could call Sharpton a racist was Carol Moseley Braun, of course. What is her strategy there, do you think?

KIRSTEN POWERS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what her strategy is really for even being in the race. So I'm not going to venture a guess of what she was doing last night.

I think that the race issue was brought front and center, first by Al Sharpton, and it's an important issue. And it's good that they're bringing it up in these debates and we're having a chance to talk about it. He kind of, I think, a little bit unfairly attacked Dean, although this has been a part of what Dean is dealing with, which is the daily trial of having to explain his past comments.

O'BRIEN: Well you know it's interesting, because up to this moment, Howard Dean, I think, has been -- I think we universally agree, both sides of the aisle, has been pretty graceful at deflecting that kind of stuff as the other eight go after him or seven or however many are there. Cheri, it seemed like he took a few body blows last night. Would you go along with that?

JACOBUS: You know I don't know. It depends how the viewer perceives it. I personally don't think that there should be a quota system in any governor's office. Vermont is 98 percent white. He says he had a senior staff member who was a minority and Al Sharpton decided on his own that that wasn't good enough. I said good for Carol Moseley Braun for jumping in there and sort of being the grown up in that situation. I actually think that Al Sharpton's attack on Dean on that instance was a little bit unfair.

O'BRIEN: What is Carol Moseley Braun's motivation, do you think, is she going for a cabinet slot or VP type thing? Who knows?

JACOBUS: You know I think that her performance has been consistent throughout all of the debates and clearly she doesn't have a prayer at the nomination. But she tends to be sort of the voice of reason when some of these candidates become so desperate they're grasping at straws to find anything that they can beat the other candidates over the head with. And she typically jumps in and sort of sets everybody straight. So I think her motivation is just that this might be who she is as a person and as a candidate.

O'BRIEN: Yes, and we've kind of seen that time and again, she kind of scolds them like a teacher would almost practically. All right, let's talk about this O'Neill thing. Kirsten, put this in perspective, if you can, O'Neill's statements, is it really going to change anybody's mind given the fact that people have very strong opinions about the war in Iraq already, fairly well baked in to this whole race?

POWERS: Well I think what this does is it's just more evidence to support what Democrats have been saying all along and that is important. It fits into a larger pattern of the Bush administration misleading and lying. And now we have one of their members of the cabinet coming out and confirming that they really were obsessed with Saddam Hussein, totally, separately from 9/11 and even though they have linked the two together.

O'BRIEN: Right. But will it move voters?

POWERS: And it will also help...

O'BRIEN: Will it really move voters -- Kirsten?

POWERS: Well, no, I don't think in itself it would move a voter. But like I said, it is part of a pattern. And I think in the beginning when Democrats were complaining, people were sort of saying you're crazy, that's ridiculous. And now what we have happening is consistently getting information about the Bush administration that supports what the Democrats were saying, which is that they're not telling the truth and that they -- you know that they are -- they're -- we have this evidence now that they were going to go and get Saddam no matter what happened and it had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. And this is what Democrats have been saying. And so I think that each time, you know, it's confirmed, it does chip away at Bush.

O'BRIEN: Cheri, would you go along with that?

JACOBUS: You know I...

O'BRIEN: Does Paul O'Neill add up to anything in the grand course of this campaign?

JACOBUS: No. And I -- and I think you have to be very careful with that word confirmed. He has not confirmed anything. He is an ousted former cabinet member, somewhat disgruntled, and he basically wants to hurt this president. Nobody's mind is going to be changed. You know it might even have some weight if he had come out and said this before the Democrats were saying this. But you know he's a former treasury secretary. I don't think he was privy to the same information that Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice were privy to. Remember Bill Clinton said that his intelligence said there...

POWERS: He provided 19,000 documents.

O'BRIEN: All right. Final thought, Kirsten, then we've got to go.

POWERS: And someone (ph) -- there is going to be an investigation on that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Final thought, go ahead.

POWERS: I was saying you know it's not just his word, it's -- he provided 19,000 documents to a very respected journalist who reviewed these documents. There are memos that show that what he is saying is in fact true.

JACOBUS: That is not true.

POWERS: So as much as the Bush administration and Republicans want to smear him and do one of their regular smear campaigns, that's not going to take away from the fact that there are 19,000 documents showing...

JACOBUS: Kirsten, there is really no evidence of that. This is every administration had a contingency plan for these.

POWERS: ... they were -- they were obsessed with Saddam Hussein.

O'BRIEN: All right. All right. Let's -- all right. We're going to leave it at that.

Ladies, thank you very much.

JACOBUS: Thank you.

POWERS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Cheri Jacobus and Kirsten Powers talking about the debate and the presidential season which is officially upon us one week from today. Thank you very much for being with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com