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Live From...
Gay Rites
Aired February 20, 2004 - 13:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Sometime in the next few years, the gay marriage question will likely be decided, like so many other social and political issues before it, by a court ruling, or a law or a constitutional amendment, or maybe all the above. Nobody sees the unions being sanctioned unilaterally in San Francisco as a final solution, but they may speed the process. And in so doing, force millions of middle grounders to take side. Taking sides here on LIVE FROM, of course, California radio talk show host Karel Bouley and Paul McGuire, both of whom join us from our L.A. bureau, and you're both sitting together. No pun intended.
Hi, guys. Thank you for joining us.
Karel, let's start with you. Actually, I want you both to respond to this one. Karel, let's start with you. Gavin Newsom, first of all, as leader, as a mayor, isn't he supposed to uphold the law?
KAREL BOULEY, KGO TALK SHOW HOST: He is supposed to uphold the law, and -- but when there is an unjust law and you are in a position of power, it is also your responsibility to point that out.
We need to be very clear on this debate however. This debate is not about marriage. This is about a state and federal mandate against gays and lesbians. They want place a big no stamp on the foreheads of gays and lesbians in the state and in the country, and therefore, they've drawn their own battle lines. This is not about the sanctity of marriage. It is about a referendum against gays and lesbians.
PHILLIPS: Paul, is this an anti-gay issue, or is this about marriage?
PAUL MCGUIRE, KBRT TALK SHOW HOST: Well, really this is about marriage and the sanctity of marriage. You know, 68 percent of the people in California voted for proposition 22, which defined marriage as between a man and woman.
BOULEY: Well, then, 68 percent of the people in the state of California were wrong.
MCGUIRE: I think what is happening in San Francisco is breaking law. It's clear that homosexual and lesbian couples deserve some kind of legal sanction. But marriage is not the way to go, and certainly not marriage where you're breaking the laws of the state of California.
BOULEY: And what do you base that opinion on? PHILLIPS: All right, Karel, let's talk about the word "marriage" here. You've written a lot about the word marriage.
BOULEY: Yes, I have.
PHILLIPS: Let's define marriage.
BOULEY: All right, first of all, let's remember that marriage is about property. It was always about property. That property was the woman in fact.
PHILLIPS: It's not about love?
BOULEY: No, love was never even mentioned about marriage until the 17th and 18th century. Marriage was always about property. It was about the rights of secession, who inherited what. Men were known to have affairs, they wanted to protect their estates, they wanted to make sure there were no, quote/unquote, "bastard children" who could make claims against the estate, and that's what marriage was about. Marriage is a two-step process. It is a civil process, and then it is a religious process. And those two were never and not related in any way, shape or form.
So the history of marriage, if anybody would go back and look it up, is really all about property, all about finances, all about rights. It is not about love. It is not about religion --
PHILLIPS: Well, Karel, we know that America, historically, has been wrong about a lot of things, too.
BOULEY: Yes, yes, America was wrong about whether women should be able to vote. America was wrong about whether or not we should have slaves. America was wrong about so many things. America doesn't make policy on public opinion. We are a land of law, and the Constitution guarantees equal protection. That doesn't mean for people that you don't like, there to be excluded, particularly if you don't like them based on religious beliefs. Keep your religion out of my constitution. Equal means equal.
PHILLIPS: All right, I got to give Paul a chance to jump in here. Go ahead, Paul.
MCGUIRE: OK, marriage really is about love, it's about raising children in a nurturing environment. What we're looking at here is overturning 5,000 years of civilization. The purpose of marriage is for a man and woman to come together in love, create children...
BOULEY: That is factually incorrect...
PHILLIPS: Hold on, hold on, let Paul finish...
MCGUIRE: It's a protective institution.
And The other thing, Karel -- and I think Karel knows this -- that there has been no civilization in the history of mankind, including the Roman and Greek empire, which ever legal sanctioned the marriage of same-sex persons.
BOULEY: So because no other civilization had the common sense to do what needed to be done, we shouldn't do it?
MCGUIRE: Karel, the problem here is we're talking about raising children...
BOULEY: You think gay people can't raise children? They are raising children.
PHILLIPS: Hold on, let's let Paul finish. Finish, Paul.
MCGUIRE: They are raising children, but they're raising children -- a gay couple, as I know that you know Karel, cannot reproduce in and of themselves in their own relationship. If two men come together, they can't produce a baby.
PHILLIPS: All right, let me ask you this, the final question before we go. I just want to know from both of you -- and quickly, please, Karel -- do you think this country will ever accept gay marriage?
BOULEY: I think the country's not going to have a choice, because the Constitution, once again is very clear on this. I'm sorry that it became a weapon of mass distraction in this election. This is not an issue that needs to be on table right now. If the Republicans are truly about states' right, let's let the states decide. You can't be for states' rights and then step in and say, well, only when we agree with the state, although John Ashcroft does have a history of doing that with medical marijuana, with assisted suicide, whatever they disagree with. The Constitution protects everyone in this country. I don't need special rights. I just need what the constitution assures.
PHILLIPS: Paul, quickly, this country ever going to accept gay marriage?
MCGUIRE: No, because 55 percent of the American public does not want gay marriage in the state of California, 68 percent of the Californians do not want gay marriage. So if we're really looking at the will of the people, not just a special interest group...
BOULEY: 84 percent of the people supported slavery.
MCGUIRE: Sixty-four percent of California do not want homosexual marriages.
BOULEY: And 84 percent of America wanted slavery.
PHILLIPS: And if you want to hear more flavor from Karel and Paul, you can catch their radio shows, KJO, Karel, Paul, KGOT.
Gentlemen, thank you.
There we go, they're shaking hands. I'm feeling good. I can sleep tonight. Thank you. MCGUIRE: As long as he doesn't propose to me, I'm fine.
BOULEY: As long as I don't propose to him, I'm fine.
PHILLIPS: As long as you both don't have to get married, you're OK. All right, very good. Karel and Paul, got to love them. Thanks, guys.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 20, 2004 - 13:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Sometime in the next few years, the gay marriage question will likely be decided, like so many other social and political issues before it, by a court ruling, or a law or a constitutional amendment, or maybe all the above. Nobody sees the unions being sanctioned unilaterally in San Francisco as a final solution, but they may speed the process. And in so doing, force millions of middle grounders to take side. Taking sides here on LIVE FROM, of course, California radio talk show host Karel Bouley and Paul McGuire, both of whom join us from our L.A. bureau, and you're both sitting together. No pun intended.
Hi, guys. Thank you for joining us.
Karel, let's start with you. Actually, I want you both to respond to this one. Karel, let's start with you. Gavin Newsom, first of all, as leader, as a mayor, isn't he supposed to uphold the law?
KAREL BOULEY, KGO TALK SHOW HOST: He is supposed to uphold the law, and -- but when there is an unjust law and you are in a position of power, it is also your responsibility to point that out.
We need to be very clear on this debate however. This debate is not about marriage. This is about a state and federal mandate against gays and lesbians. They want place a big no stamp on the foreheads of gays and lesbians in the state and in the country, and therefore, they've drawn their own battle lines. This is not about the sanctity of marriage. It is about a referendum against gays and lesbians.
PHILLIPS: Paul, is this an anti-gay issue, or is this about marriage?
PAUL MCGUIRE, KBRT TALK SHOW HOST: Well, really this is about marriage and the sanctity of marriage. You know, 68 percent of the people in California voted for proposition 22, which defined marriage as between a man and woman.
BOULEY: Well, then, 68 percent of the people in the state of California were wrong.
MCGUIRE: I think what is happening in San Francisco is breaking law. It's clear that homosexual and lesbian couples deserve some kind of legal sanction. But marriage is not the way to go, and certainly not marriage where you're breaking the laws of the state of California.
BOULEY: And what do you base that opinion on? PHILLIPS: All right, Karel, let's talk about the word "marriage" here. You've written a lot about the word marriage.
BOULEY: Yes, I have.
PHILLIPS: Let's define marriage.
BOULEY: All right, first of all, let's remember that marriage is about property. It was always about property. That property was the woman in fact.
PHILLIPS: It's not about love?
BOULEY: No, love was never even mentioned about marriage until the 17th and 18th century. Marriage was always about property. It was about the rights of secession, who inherited what. Men were known to have affairs, they wanted to protect their estates, they wanted to make sure there were no, quote/unquote, "bastard children" who could make claims against the estate, and that's what marriage was about. Marriage is a two-step process. It is a civil process, and then it is a religious process. And those two were never and not related in any way, shape or form.
So the history of marriage, if anybody would go back and look it up, is really all about property, all about finances, all about rights. It is not about love. It is not about religion --
PHILLIPS: Well, Karel, we know that America, historically, has been wrong about a lot of things, too.
BOULEY: Yes, yes, America was wrong about whether women should be able to vote. America was wrong about whether or not we should have slaves. America was wrong about so many things. America doesn't make policy on public opinion. We are a land of law, and the Constitution guarantees equal protection. That doesn't mean for people that you don't like, there to be excluded, particularly if you don't like them based on religious beliefs. Keep your religion out of my constitution. Equal means equal.
PHILLIPS: All right, I got to give Paul a chance to jump in here. Go ahead, Paul.
MCGUIRE: OK, marriage really is about love, it's about raising children in a nurturing environment. What we're looking at here is overturning 5,000 years of civilization. The purpose of marriage is for a man and woman to come together in love, create children...
BOULEY: That is factually incorrect...
PHILLIPS: Hold on, hold on, let Paul finish...
MCGUIRE: It's a protective institution.
And The other thing, Karel -- and I think Karel knows this -- that there has been no civilization in the history of mankind, including the Roman and Greek empire, which ever legal sanctioned the marriage of same-sex persons.
BOULEY: So because no other civilization had the common sense to do what needed to be done, we shouldn't do it?
MCGUIRE: Karel, the problem here is we're talking about raising children...
BOULEY: You think gay people can't raise children? They are raising children.
PHILLIPS: Hold on, let's let Paul finish. Finish, Paul.
MCGUIRE: They are raising children, but they're raising children -- a gay couple, as I know that you know Karel, cannot reproduce in and of themselves in their own relationship. If two men come together, they can't produce a baby.
PHILLIPS: All right, let me ask you this, the final question before we go. I just want to know from both of you -- and quickly, please, Karel -- do you think this country will ever accept gay marriage?
BOULEY: I think the country's not going to have a choice, because the Constitution, once again is very clear on this. I'm sorry that it became a weapon of mass distraction in this election. This is not an issue that needs to be on table right now. If the Republicans are truly about states' right, let's let the states decide. You can't be for states' rights and then step in and say, well, only when we agree with the state, although John Ashcroft does have a history of doing that with medical marijuana, with assisted suicide, whatever they disagree with. The Constitution protects everyone in this country. I don't need special rights. I just need what the constitution assures.
PHILLIPS: Paul, quickly, this country ever going to accept gay marriage?
MCGUIRE: No, because 55 percent of the American public does not want gay marriage in the state of California, 68 percent of the Californians do not want gay marriage. So if we're really looking at the will of the people, not just a special interest group...
BOULEY: 84 percent of the people supported slavery.
MCGUIRE: Sixty-four percent of California do not want homosexual marriages.
BOULEY: And 84 percent of America wanted slavery.
PHILLIPS: And if you want to hear more flavor from Karel and Paul, you can catch their radio shows, KJO, Karel, Paul, KGOT.
Gentlemen, thank you.
There we go, they're shaking hands. I'm feeling good. I can sleep tonight. Thank you. MCGUIRE: As long as he doesn't propose to me, I'm fine.
BOULEY: As long as I don't propose to him, I'm fine.
PHILLIPS: As long as you both don't have to get married, you're OK. All right, very good. Karel and Paul, got to love them. Thanks, guys.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
