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Should Blair Profit From Book on Plagiarism?
Aired March 10, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
A former "New York Times" reporter admitted he made up stories and now he wants you to buy his book. Should he be able to profit from telling lies?
And will an art gallery have to lose its religion? The city says the statue of Jesus has to come down.
O'BRIEN: And later, why this little monkey is big news for families struggling with infertility. We will connect the dots on that one for you. But first the top stories we're following for you.
They spared his life but convicted D.C. area sniper Lee Boyd Malvo will be spending it behind bars. A Virginia judge issued a jury's recommended sentence today and that is life without parole. Malvo's defense had argued that convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad molded the teen into a child soldier. Jurors say that influenced their decision.
Cleveland, I feel your pain. President Bush is attempting to quell fierce about the economy in the heartland. Ohio's been hard hit. In the last three years, more than 160,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost just there. The president is defending his economic policies while wooing the must-have voters in Ohio.
Democratic presidential front runner John Kerry scheduled a meeting today with his former rival Howard Dean. Kerry is also looking to build political support from backers of John Edwards. He meets with him tomorrow.
Trying to keep steroids off the baseball diamond. During Senate hearings today, lawmakers told Commissioner Bud Selig Major League Baseball needs to start a stronger drug testing program.
PHILLIPS: Now the consequences of lying. Martha Stewart is convicted of it and could do hard time. Former "New York Times" reporter Jayson Blair admits he lied and his confession is selling books. We begin with CNN's Maria Hinojosa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Admitting to being a liar and a plagiarist has turned Jayson Blair into a media star.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: And how he says he's coming clean.
HINOJOSA: He's making the rounds on "LARRY KING LIVE."
JAYSON BLAIR, FORMER "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER: I made, you know, a lot of mistakes.
HINOJOSA: With Katie Couric on NBC, all to sell his tell-all memoir "Burning Down my Master's House."
BLAIR: Some people, you know, it seems to me would like me to crawl into a hole and disappear forever. That's just not in my nature.
HINOJOSA: He writes about his addictions to cocaine, alcohol, pills, his 7:00 a.m. shots of liquor, which he told CNN only added to his troubles.
BLAIR: It was my own character flaws and my own bad choices. I can't really -- there are no excuses for it. There really are no explanations other than the fact that I made bad decisions.
HINOJOSA: Media critic Howard Kurtz also interviewed Blair as part of what he calls hold-your-nose coverage.
HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST" MEDIA CRITIC: It's a fascinating book in the sense that watching a train wreck is fascinating.
HINOJOSA: Blair showed CNN his former apartment where he fabricated stories.
BLAIR: It was my own prison. That's what it felt like.
HINOJOSA: And the public phone where he called the boss who was first to question his work.
BLAIR: I just remember being in a cold sweat, shaking, you know, still lying.
HINOJOSA: Detailing just how he did it.
BLAIR: I would use "Times" databases of photographs. I would use stringers. I would use people, you know, I talked to on the telephone and I would ask them for specific details, you know, what color are the flowers on your porch.
HINOJOSA: But for some Jayson Blair's personal account won't answer the central question why he did it.
KURTZ: I think Jayson Blair still hasn't completely convinced me or himself exactly why he did what he did. HINOJOSA: The "Times," which changed some senior staff and did a self review, won't talk about the book. In a statement they wrote: "The author is an admitted fabricator. We don't intend to respond to Jayson or his book." But one "Times" employee said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm certainly interested in it but I wouldn't buy it.
HINOJOSA: Jayson Blair is hoping others will.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Some people are left asking if Blair deserves book royalties as reward for his bad reporting/behavior. Let's examine that. We turn to two communication strategists, Robbie Vorhaus in New York and in Washington, Eric Dezenhall. Hi, guys.
ROBBIE VORHAUS, COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Hey, Kyra. How are you?
PHILLIPS: Pretty good. I've wanted to talk about this for a while now, especially with you two. Let's talk about, Robbie, you are, you were a journalist, you worked at CBS. This is the ultimate sin for a journalist. You think he should be profiting off what he did?
VORHAUS: Dan Rather used to tell the interns, go away good, come back great. Dan was a big believer that cutting your teeth at a major news organization where if you made a mistake would cost you your career and your livelihood for a long time.
So I had a lot of friends who went to work in South Dakota, in Wyoming, in Southern California and they would come back a lot stronger, a lot more mature and a lot wiser.
I question whether or not -- I mean Jayson Blair would have blamed out anywhere. Doesn't matter where. It just happened to be the most illustrious newspaper in the United States.
PHILLIPS: What do you think, Eric?
ERIC DEZENHALL, MEDIA STRATEGIST: I think that this is American guerrilla theater at its best. Here is a guy who was given the opportunity of a hundred life times. He went on a rampage of deceit. And now he's a victim who wants to use his book to help us.
I've written books and I waited until middle age after many years of rejection to have an opportunity and I don't have any sympathy for him at all. But I think that damage control is basically making the best of your bad options.
And his -- the best of his bad options is to write a book and try to make himself into a figure of in-depth. PHILLIPS: He was on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. A number of callers really gave it to him, pretty much hammering him. This one caller basically saying you lied, you were plagiarizing, you got a lot of nerve. Here is how he responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAIR: I am sorry. And, you know, I've made public apologies. I've said that I'm sorry. And I'll say it again, that I'm sorry for the damage that it caused "The New York Times." I'm sorry for, you know, the people whose careers were hurt.
To your first question and about as a plagiarist how do I go to sleep at night, well, I'm not plagiarizing anymore. I go to sleep much more comfortably than I did when I was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, is it OK just to say I'm sorry and move on? Is that enough? Is there anything more can he do?
VORHAUS: He can continue -- he can talk at journalism schools about what not to do. I mean the man has problems. And, again, here is a situation where you have a very interesting scenario of someone who rose very quickly and flamed out.
But don't forget, there is a guy named Frank Abendale who Steven Spielberg made a movie about called "Catch Me if You Can." And the slogan was "A true story about a real fake." We know that at "The Washington Post" with Janet Cooke they had to take their Pulitzer back.
This is not the first time it's happened, and not the last time that it's happened. And I think that we're looking at the wrong thing.
Is Jayson Blair wrong? Yes. Is he culpable? Yes. Is he ever going to be a journalist again? Probably not. But is there some young journalist in Des Moines or Kansas City or Tucson who said, Wow, what am I doing here? I have the chance to lie, do I lie, do I not? No, I'm not going to.
And he gets through. Jayson Blair got caught because he's sick and he was at a big newspaper.
One more thing. I believe that a great newspaper, "The New York Times," has become greater because of Jayson Blair showing some of its weaknesses, and, unfortunately and there were casualties.
PHILLIPS: He's also talked about the pressure of rising too quickly. Eric, let's talk about this. I mean I remember even in this business and having to pay my dues and work in all these small markets, and, boy, made a lot of mistakes.
I could haven't started at CNN -- Miles is agreeing. I would never started at CNN knowing what I know now. Is he just someone that's a victim of climbing too quickly?
DEZENHALL: You know, Kyra, I am suffering from apology fatigue. I get really tired of this notion that people who get in trouble can pull the great myth of damage control which is if you apologize, that you don't have to suffer in order to be redeemed.
The fact is, redemption comes with suffering, and paying a real price. Most of us who have done anything in our lives over a period of time have paid a price. It sounds like you went through humbling experiences. I haven't been a journalist as have you, but I've written books.
PHILLIPS: Plenty of them. I work with Miles. That's a humbling experience. Go ahead, Eric.
DEZENHALL: That I certainly understand.
But I mean I know for every book that I wrote, I can show you rejection letters. And I don't believe that somebody should -- I don't need to learn from Jayson Blair how not to plagiarize.
I just really have no sympathy. While Robbie, I think, is right that there may be some people who can learn from the experience, I'm just not interested in learning anything from a plagiarist.
PHILLIPS: That's a good point, Eric. You talk about all the rejection. I remember walk into Art Buchwald's office for the first time and he had all his rejection letters framed on the wall as you walked in. It was such a reality check
VORHAUS: I just want to tell you, in Oskaloosa, Iowa I turned the radio station off for one minute every night because I thought that I was doing a favor to our listening audience so that they can have a minute of silence.
So the general manager came running to my side and said, Don't you realize we're in violation of the FCC rules? Now thank god, I was 20 and not 50 and thank God I was at -- in KBOE in Oskaloosa.
But you know these things happens. And it's good when you're away from the maddening crowd.
PHILLIPS: Robbie, do you feel sorry for Jayson Blair?
VORHAUS: You know, Kyra, I think that we all -- yes, do I. I think that Jayson Blair is a sad case of a man who is mentally ill. I would never hire him. I know that he has -- I would not want to be Jayson Blair at a cocktail party. I'm a fan of Eric's and I agree that I -- my wall is lined with rejection notes, but at the same time, we still persevere.
So I think that's what he's doing now. He's persevering. When you write a book, it's an opportunity to tell your story the way you want it to be told. And, you know, we can vote on whether or not we want or care about Jayson Blair and that's if we buy his book.
And I don't believe it's going to do very well because I don't think that many people care.
PHILLIPS: Eric, so here is Martha Stewart. She lied. She's going to go to jail. Everybody is talking about how she could lose everything. Then you have Jayson Blair, he lied. And, you know, it's yet to see how much money he's going to make but he did get a big check up front for this book. I don't know. I don't get it.
DEZENHALL: Well, I think that in our culture, one of the ways we define democracy is our right to see you flame out. And participate in your downfall. We sort of enjoy these character arcs. And Martha Stewart, we enjoyed making her, and now we enjoy breaking her even though a lot of what she did was self-inflicted.
I don't think, though, that whereas Jayson Blair may get some money by writing a book, I think that Martha Stewart's downfall is far more serious. And I think that I don't know of anyone who has been convicted of something so serious in such a hostile climate who can easily escape it.
And a lot of these things that you're hearing, that she should just apologize, well, the fact is there is an innate tension between the legal process and the damage control process. She really can't come out right now and just apologize when her position is in court that she's not guilty.
So you can't come out and say, I'm really, really sorry, everybody, for that thing I didn't do. But if I did do it, I would have been sorry, but I'm technically not because I didn't do it.
So she's in a very rough situation. I do think she has a long- term chance at a comeback, but on a smaller scale.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, you told me last week Martha has to come forward and apologize and be humble in this situation and everything will be OK.
VORHAUS: I don't think everything is going to be OK. I think the difference in these two cases is that there are millions -- millions of people who love Martha Stewart. They love what she stands for. Martha Stewart raised our culture to a greater sense of style, to a greater sense of creativity.
PHILLIPS: We didn't see that from Jayson Blair.
VORHAUS: No. And Jayson Blair is another story. I mean Jayson Blair flamed out. He is an admitted liar. He is a pathological liar who has got a mental illness. He says that he's got addictions. And I think that if he had worked at another newspaper or another media outlet, we never would have heard of him.
PHILLIPS: I'll tell what you. Eric, Robbie, we got to leave it there. We'll gather our big mistakes and lies and put it in a book and see if anybody will buy it. What do you think?
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: I'm with you.
PHILLIPS: Eric?
DEZENHALL: I think you can feel very good about all the things I didn't plagiarize.
VORHAUS: But the name of the book, "My Life With Kyra."
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Oh, boy, now we're really getting distracted. Miles is going to choke me.
All right, Robbie Vorhaus, Eric Dezenhall, always a pleasure, guys. Thank you so much.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Are you guys related? You guys got to be related.
PHILLIPS: They do kind of look like twins.
O'BRIEN: My God, look at the two of them. Separated at birth. Right?
VORHAUS: That's right.
DEZENHALL: I can't see the screen.
(LAUGHTER)
VORHAUS: Better looking than I am.
PHILLIPS: Oh, you're both quite handsome guys. Wouldn't you say?
O'BRIEN: I'm not going there.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right, the movie "The Passion of the Christ" has everyone talking. But a sculptor who tries to display his own statue of Jesus is not nearly as well received. Perhaps he should have gotten funding from Mel Gibson.
Where is the hot place to retire these days? Think warm. But don't think Florida necessarily.
A breast cancer drug you may never have heard of maybe better than Tamoxifen for some women. That in our health news segment. All that lies ahead. All good reasons to stay with LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) O'BRIEN: Outcry over Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" helped the movie strike gold at the box office. Now an Arizona sculptor stirring passions in Scottsdale for displaying his own crucifix creation. Here is our Kimberly Osias.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's an image that's stirred all kinds of passions for 2,000 years.
BERNARD DUKE, SCULPTOR: I had my hammer and I'm beating it. And it doesn't want to go. I'm driving it through his feet.
OSIAS: Arizona sculptor Bernard John Duke created this 14-foot stature of Jesus two years ago. It was only after seeing Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion of the Christ" that he put it on display on the sidewalk in front of an art gallery in the middle of Old Town Scottsdale.
ED GAWE, SCOTTSDALE DEP. CITY MGR.: Our code enforcement division received a complaint that there was an obstruction.
OSIAS: Though we saw people clearly able to get by the statue without a problem, the city ordered the sculpture removed saying items for sale cannot be displayed outside without a permit. The sculpture is technically for sale, but the artist says he'll probably take it off the market.
The gallery's owners refused to remove the art until after Easter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I'm not a troublemaker.
OSIAS (on camera): The city says it's not a question of religious content. It's a matter of public right of way. But here, plenty of work is displayed outside that's never been cited before.
(voice-over): In fact, the city says no one has ever been cited in this way.
This Native American religious piece by the same sculptor was displayed in the same spot without a problem.
DUKE: Was I surprised by it? No. Did I expect it? Yes.
GAWE: It was art. It's religion and government -- throw government in as well. And you have a fun mixture of things that stir passions.
OSIAS: Scottsdale is revisiting the policy. But in the meantime, the old rules apply and the Jesus statue may have to find a new home by month's end.
Kimberly Osias, CNN, Scottsdale, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: Health news is next. A new breast cancer drug better than Tamoxifen? One study says yes.
O'BRIEN: Then go West, young man. Or older man.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Or really, really older man?
O'BRIEN: Retiree run, or retiree shuffle on the Western U.S.? Bring your walkers. The West is hot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Check out headlines this Wednesday, March 10. Breast cancer patients taking Tamoxifen may want to consider a new drug. A study in "The New England Journal of Medicine" shows that Aromasin is better from keeping tumors from returning after surgery. Pfizer financed the study and makes the new drug.
I want to update you now on a story that we told you about yesterday about restoring fertility for female cancer patients. Scientists produced a normal embryo by preserving and later retransplanting ovarian tissue. Organ scientists have taken it a step further producing Brenda. She's the first primate born using the ovarian tissue transplant procedure.
O'BRIEN: All right. You know, it's been a while since we've done a "Mars Minute," Kyra. Hasn't it?
PHILLIPS: Yes, it has. And I can't wait to pick it up from here.
O'BRIEN: And I'm waiting for the popular demand for its return.
PHILLIPS: I'm waiting.
O'BRIEN: Here is the Mars Rover, Spirit and Opportunity. They're identical. On opposite sides of Mars. With that, let's begin the clock on the "Mars Minute."
PHILLIPS: No bonus time.
O'BRIEN: Bring you up to date.
That's not your call, is it?
Take a look at these pictures -- it's Melissa's call!
These are eclipses on Mars captured by the Rovers. Check this out. I know you're excited. That little dot there is Deimos. And this little bite here is Phobos. These are solar eclipses. You know what Deimos and Phobos mean, right?
PHILLIPS: They're Greek mythology characters.
O'BRIEN: Outstanding work. Deimos is the god of war, Phobos means fear.
PHILLIPS: I like the god of war.
O'BRIEN: And the reason that Deimos is much smaller, it's is only nine miles across, Phobos is 17 miles across but also a lot close in its orbit. And thus it takes a little bigger bite out of the sun.
Here's just a shot from Spirit looking at the so-called rocky road that lies ahead. Another great shot. This shows the scientific arm there with the device that does the drilling called the rat. That's the rock abrasion tool.
And there is the end result of a lot of rock abrading on the rock called Humphrey which actually showed some signs of water inside it.
And I just want to point out one thing. Very interesting things in the patterns there of Humphrey.
PHILLIPS: Oh. Call it "Bogart."
O'BRIEN: Another face on Mars to discuss. All right.
(MARKET UPDATE)
O'BRIEN: Well you knew it was bound to happen. Didn't you?
PHILLIPS: Oh, yeah.
O'BRIEN: The Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction" memorabilia is now showing up on eBay. That's "e" for "exposed."
PHILLIPS: You can't see it though, sorry.
O'BRIEN: I'm looking.
PHILLIPS: Can't see it.
O'BRIEN: All right.
PHILLIPS: On a much more serious note, quite an ugly hit on the ice. This is just going too far. What will the NHL do now?
O'BRIEN: And Major League Baseball's heavy hitters on Capitol Hill grilled about possible steroid use among players. All that lies ahead in the next half hour of LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 10, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
A former "New York Times" reporter admitted he made up stories and now he wants you to buy his book. Should he be able to profit from telling lies?
And will an art gallery have to lose its religion? The city says the statue of Jesus has to come down.
O'BRIEN: And later, why this little monkey is big news for families struggling with infertility. We will connect the dots on that one for you. But first the top stories we're following for you.
They spared his life but convicted D.C. area sniper Lee Boyd Malvo will be spending it behind bars. A Virginia judge issued a jury's recommended sentence today and that is life without parole. Malvo's defense had argued that convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad molded the teen into a child soldier. Jurors say that influenced their decision.
Cleveland, I feel your pain. President Bush is attempting to quell fierce about the economy in the heartland. Ohio's been hard hit. In the last three years, more than 160,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost just there. The president is defending his economic policies while wooing the must-have voters in Ohio.
Democratic presidential front runner John Kerry scheduled a meeting today with his former rival Howard Dean. Kerry is also looking to build political support from backers of John Edwards. He meets with him tomorrow.
Trying to keep steroids off the baseball diamond. During Senate hearings today, lawmakers told Commissioner Bud Selig Major League Baseball needs to start a stronger drug testing program.
PHILLIPS: Now the consequences of lying. Martha Stewart is convicted of it and could do hard time. Former "New York Times" reporter Jayson Blair admits he lied and his confession is selling books. We begin with CNN's Maria Hinojosa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Admitting to being a liar and a plagiarist has turned Jayson Blair into a media star.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: And how he says he's coming clean.
HINOJOSA: He's making the rounds on "LARRY KING LIVE."
JAYSON BLAIR, FORMER "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER: I made, you know, a lot of mistakes.
HINOJOSA: With Katie Couric on NBC, all to sell his tell-all memoir "Burning Down my Master's House."
BLAIR: Some people, you know, it seems to me would like me to crawl into a hole and disappear forever. That's just not in my nature.
HINOJOSA: He writes about his addictions to cocaine, alcohol, pills, his 7:00 a.m. shots of liquor, which he told CNN only added to his troubles.
BLAIR: It was my own character flaws and my own bad choices. I can't really -- there are no excuses for it. There really are no explanations other than the fact that I made bad decisions.
HINOJOSA: Media critic Howard Kurtz also interviewed Blair as part of what he calls hold-your-nose coverage.
HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST" MEDIA CRITIC: It's a fascinating book in the sense that watching a train wreck is fascinating.
HINOJOSA: Blair showed CNN his former apartment where he fabricated stories.
BLAIR: It was my own prison. That's what it felt like.
HINOJOSA: And the public phone where he called the boss who was first to question his work.
BLAIR: I just remember being in a cold sweat, shaking, you know, still lying.
HINOJOSA: Detailing just how he did it.
BLAIR: I would use "Times" databases of photographs. I would use stringers. I would use people, you know, I talked to on the telephone and I would ask them for specific details, you know, what color are the flowers on your porch.
HINOJOSA: But for some Jayson Blair's personal account won't answer the central question why he did it.
KURTZ: I think Jayson Blair still hasn't completely convinced me or himself exactly why he did what he did. HINOJOSA: The "Times," which changed some senior staff and did a self review, won't talk about the book. In a statement they wrote: "The author is an admitted fabricator. We don't intend to respond to Jayson or his book." But one "Times" employee said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm certainly interested in it but I wouldn't buy it.
HINOJOSA: Jayson Blair is hoping others will.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Some people are left asking if Blair deserves book royalties as reward for his bad reporting/behavior. Let's examine that. We turn to two communication strategists, Robbie Vorhaus in New York and in Washington, Eric Dezenhall. Hi, guys.
ROBBIE VORHAUS, COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Hey, Kyra. How are you?
PHILLIPS: Pretty good. I've wanted to talk about this for a while now, especially with you two. Let's talk about, Robbie, you are, you were a journalist, you worked at CBS. This is the ultimate sin for a journalist. You think he should be profiting off what he did?
VORHAUS: Dan Rather used to tell the interns, go away good, come back great. Dan was a big believer that cutting your teeth at a major news organization where if you made a mistake would cost you your career and your livelihood for a long time.
So I had a lot of friends who went to work in South Dakota, in Wyoming, in Southern California and they would come back a lot stronger, a lot more mature and a lot wiser.
I question whether or not -- I mean Jayson Blair would have blamed out anywhere. Doesn't matter where. It just happened to be the most illustrious newspaper in the United States.
PHILLIPS: What do you think, Eric?
ERIC DEZENHALL, MEDIA STRATEGIST: I think that this is American guerrilla theater at its best. Here is a guy who was given the opportunity of a hundred life times. He went on a rampage of deceit. And now he's a victim who wants to use his book to help us.
I've written books and I waited until middle age after many years of rejection to have an opportunity and I don't have any sympathy for him at all. But I think that damage control is basically making the best of your bad options.
And his -- the best of his bad options is to write a book and try to make himself into a figure of in-depth. PHILLIPS: He was on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. A number of callers really gave it to him, pretty much hammering him. This one caller basically saying you lied, you were plagiarizing, you got a lot of nerve. Here is how he responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAIR: I am sorry. And, you know, I've made public apologies. I've said that I'm sorry. And I'll say it again, that I'm sorry for the damage that it caused "The New York Times." I'm sorry for, you know, the people whose careers were hurt.
To your first question and about as a plagiarist how do I go to sleep at night, well, I'm not plagiarizing anymore. I go to sleep much more comfortably than I did when I was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, is it OK just to say I'm sorry and move on? Is that enough? Is there anything more can he do?
VORHAUS: He can continue -- he can talk at journalism schools about what not to do. I mean the man has problems. And, again, here is a situation where you have a very interesting scenario of someone who rose very quickly and flamed out.
But don't forget, there is a guy named Frank Abendale who Steven Spielberg made a movie about called "Catch Me if You Can." And the slogan was "A true story about a real fake." We know that at "The Washington Post" with Janet Cooke they had to take their Pulitzer back.
This is not the first time it's happened, and not the last time that it's happened. And I think that we're looking at the wrong thing.
Is Jayson Blair wrong? Yes. Is he culpable? Yes. Is he ever going to be a journalist again? Probably not. But is there some young journalist in Des Moines or Kansas City or Tucson who said, Wow, what am I doing here? I have the chance to lie, do I lie, do I not? No, I'm not going to.
And he gets through. Jayson Blair got caught because he's sick and he was at a big newspaper.
One more thing. I believe that a great newspaper, "The New York Times," has become greater because of Jayson Blair showing some of its weaknesses, and, unfortunately and there were casualties.
PHILLIPS: He's also talked about the pressure of rising too quickly. Eric, let's talk about this. I mean I remember even in this business and having to pay my dues and work in all these small markets, and, boy, made a lot of mistakes.
I could haven't started at CNN -- Miles is agreeing. I would never started at CNN knowing what I know now. Is he just someone that's a victim of climbing too quickly?
DEZENHALL: You know, Kyra, I am suffering from apology fatigue. I get really tired of this notion that people who get in trouble can pull the great myth of damage control which is if you apologize, that you don't have to suffer in order to be redeemed.
The fact is, redemption comes with suffering, and paying a real price. Most of us who have done anything in our lives over a period of time have paid a price. It sounds like you went through humbling experiences. I haven't been a journalist as have you, but I've written books.
PHILLIPS: Plenty of them. I work with Miles. That's a humbling experience. Go ahead, Eric.
DEZENHALL: That I certainly understand.
But I mean I know for every book that I wrote, I can show you rejection letters. And I don't believe that somebody should -- I don't need to learn from Jayson Blair how not to plagiarize.
I just really have no sympathy. While Robbie, I think, is right that there may be some people who can learn from the experience, I'm just not interested in learning anything from a plagiarist.
PHILLIPS: That's a good point, Eric. You talk about all the rejection. I remember walk into Art Buchwald's office for the first time and he had all his rejection letters framed on the wall as you walked in. It was such a reality check
VORHAUS: I just want to tell you, in Oskaloosa, Iowa I turned the radio station off for one minute every night because I thought that I was doing a favor to our listening audience so that they can have a minute of silence.
So the general manager came running to my side and said, Don't you realize we're in violation of the FCC rules? Now thank god, I was 20 and not 50 and thank God I was at -- in KBOE in Oskaloosa.
But you know these things happens. And it's good when you're away from the maddening crowd.
PHILLIPS: Robbie, do you feel sorry for Jayson Blair?
VORHAUS: You know, Kyra, I think that we all -- yes, do I. I think that Jayson Blair is a sad case of a man who is mentally ill. I would never hire him. I know that he has -- I would not want to be Jayson Blair at a cocktail party. I'm a fan of Eric's and I agree that I -- my wall is lined with rejection notes, but at the same time, we still persevere.
So I think that's what he's doing now. He's persevering. When you write a book, it's an opportunity to tell your story the way you want it to be told. And, you know, we can vote on whether or not we want or care about Jayson Blair and that's if we buy his book.
And I don't believe it's going to do very well because I don't think that many people care.
PHILLIPS: Eric, so here is Martha Stewart. She lied. She's going to go to jail. Everybody is talking about how she could lose everything. Then you have Jayson Blair, he lied. And, you know, it's yet to see how much money he's going to make but he did get a big check up front for this book. I don't know. I don't get it.
DEZENHALL: Well, I think that in our culture, one of the ways we define democracy is our right to see you flame out. And participate in your downfall. We sort of enjoy these character arcs. And Martha Stewart, we enjoyed making her, and now we enjoy breaking her even though a lot of what she did was self-inflicted.
I don't think, though, that whereas Jayson Blair may get some money by writing a book, I think that Martha Stewart's downfall is far more serious. And I think that I don't know of anyone who has been convicted of something so serious in such a hostile climate who can easily escape it.
And a lot of these things that you're hearing, that she should just apologize, well, the fact is there is an innate tension between the legal process and the damage control process. She really can't come out right now and just apologize when her position is in court that she's not guilty.
So you can't come out and say, I'm really, really sorry, everybody, for that thing I didn't do. But if I did do it, I would have been sorry, but I'm technically not because I didn't do it.
So she's in a very rough situation. I do think she has a long- term chance at a comeback, but on a smaller scale.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, you told me last week Martha has to come forward and apologize and be humble in this situation and everything will be OK.
VORHAUS: I don't think everything is going to be OK. I think the difference in these two cases is that there are millions -- millions of people who love Martha Stewart. They love what she stands for. Martha Stewart raised our culture to a greater sense of style, to a greater sense of creativity.
PHILLIPS: We didn't see that from Jayson Blair.
VORHAUS: No. And Jayson Blair is another story. I mean Jayson Blair flamed out. He is an admitted liar. He is a pathological liar who has got a mental illness. He says that he's got addictions. And I think that if he had worked at another newspaper or another media outlet, we never would have heard of him.
PHILLIPS: I'll tell what you. Eric, Robbie, we got to leave it there. We'll gather our big mistakes and lies and put it in a book and see if anybody will buy it. What do you think?
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: I'm with you.
PHILLIPS: Eric?
DEZENHALL: I think you can feel very good about all the things I didn't plagiarize.
VORHAUS: But the name of the book, "My Life With Kyra."
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Oh, boy, now we're really getting distracted. Miles is going to choke me.
All right, Robbie Vorhaus, Eric Dezenhall, always a pleasure, guys. Thank you so much.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Are you guys related? You guys got to be related.
PHILLIPS: They do kind of look like twins.
O'BRIEN: My God, look at the two of them. Separated at birth. Right?
VORHAUS: That's right.
DEZENHALL: I can't see the screen.
(LAUGHTER)
VORHAUS: Better looking than I am.
PHILLIPS: Oh, you're both quite handsome guys. Wouldn't you say?
O'BRIEN: I'm not going there.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right, the movie "The Passion of the Christ" has everyone talking. But a sculptor who tries to display his own statue of Jesus is not nearly as well received. Perhaps he should have gotten funding from Mel Gibson.
Where is the hot place to retire these days? Think warm. But don't think Florida necessarily.
A breast cancer drug you may never have heard of maybe better than Tamoxifen for some women. That in our health news segment. All that lies ahead. All good reasons to stay with LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) O'BRIEN: Outcry over Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" helped the movie strike gold at the box office. Now an Arizona sculptor stirring passions in Scottsdale for displaying his own crucifix creation. Here is our Kimberly Osias.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's an image that's stirred all kinds of passions for 2,000 years.
BERNARD DUKE, SCULPTOR: I had my hammer and I'm beating it. And it doesn't want to go. I'm driving it through his feet.
OSIAS: Arizona sculptor Bernard John Duke created this 14-foot stature of Jesus two years ago. It was only after seeing Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion of the Christ" that he put it on display on the sidewalk in front of an art gallery in the middle of Old Town Scottsdale.
ED GAWE, SCOTTSDALE DEP. CITY MGR.: Our code enforcement division received a complaint that there was an obstruction.
OSIAS: Though we saw people clearly able to get by the statue without a problem, the city ordered the sculpture removed saying items for sale cannot be displayed outside without a permit. The sculpture is technically for sale, but the artist says he'll probably take it off the market.
The gallery's owners refused to remove the art until after Easter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I'm not a troublemaker.
OSIAS (on camera): The city says it's not a question of religious content. It's a matter of public right of way. But here, plenty of work is displayed outside that's never been cited before.
(voice-over): In fact, the city says no one has ever been cited in this way.
This Native American religious piece by the same sculptor was displayed in the same spot without a problem.
DUKE: Was I surprised by it? No. Did I expect it? Yes.
GAWE: It was art. It's religion and government -- throw government in as well. And you have a fun mixture of things that stir passions.
OSIAS: Scottsdale is revisiting the policy. But in the meantime, the old rules apply and the Jesus statue may have to find a new home by month's end.
Kimberly Osias, CNN, Scottsdale, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: Health news is next. A new breast cancer drug better than Tamoxifen? One study says yes.
O'BRIEN: Then go West, young man. Or older man.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Or really, really older man?
O'BRIEN: Retiree run, or retiree shuffle on the Western U.S.? Bring your walkers. The West is hot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Check out headlines this Wednesday, March 10. Breast cancer patients taking Tamoxifen may want to consider a new drug. A study in "The New England Journal of Medicine" shows that Aromasin is better from keeping tumors from returning after surgery. Pfizer financed the study and makes the new drug.
I want to update you now on a story that we told you about yesterday about restoring fertility for female cancer patients. Scientists produced a normal embryo by preserving and later retransplanting ovarian tissue. Organ scientists have taken it a step further producing Brenda. She's the first primate born using the ovarian tissue transplant procedure.
O'BRIEN: All right. You know, it's been a while since we've done a "Mars Minute," Kyra. Hasn't it?
PHILLIPS: Yes, it has. And I can't wait to pick it up from here.
O'BRIEN: And I'm waiting for the popular demand for its return.
PHILLIPS: I'm waiting.
O'BRIEN: Here is the Mars Rover, Spirit and Opportunity. They're identical. On opposite sides of Mars. With that, let's begin the clock on the "Mars Minute."
PHILLIPS: No bonus time.
O'BRIEN: Bring you up to date.
That's not your call, is it?
Take a look at these pictures -- it's Melissa's call!
These are eclipses on Mars captured by the Rovers. Check this out. I know you're excited. That little dot there is Deimos. And this little bite here is Phobos. These are solar eclipses. You know what Deimos and Phobos mean, right?
PHILLIPS: They're Greek mythology characters.
O'BRIEN: Outstanding work. Deimos is the god of war, Phobos means fear.
PHILLIPS: I like the god of war.
O'BRIEN: And the reason that Deimos is much smaller, it's is only nine miles across, Phobos is 17 miles across but also a lot close in its orbit. And thus it takes a little bigger bite out of the sun.
Here's just a shot from Spirit looking at the so-called rocky road that lies ahead. Another great shot. This shows the scientific arm there with the device that does the drilling called the rat. That's the rock abrasion tool.
And there is the end result of a lot of rock abrading on the rock called Humphrey which actually showed some signs of water inside it.
And I just want to point out one thing. Very interesting things in the patterns there of Humphrey.
PHILLIPS: Oh. Call it "Bogart."
O'BRIEN: Another face on Mars to discuss. All right.
(MARKET UPDATE)
O'BRIEN: Well you knew it was bound to happen. Didn't you?
PHILLIPS: Oh, yeah.
O'BRIEN: The Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction" memorabilia is now showing up on eBay. That's "e" for "exposed."
PHILLIPS: You can't see it though, sorry.
O'BRIEN: I'm looking.
PHILLIPS: Can't see it.
O'BRIEN: All right.
PHILLIPS: On a much more serious note, quite an ugly hit on the ice. This is just going too far. What will the NHL do now?
O'BRIEN: And Major League Baseball's heavy hitters on Capitol Hill grilled about possible steroid use among players. All that lies ahead in the next half hour of LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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