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Live From...

Train Blasts in Madrid Linked to al Qaeda?

Aired March 11, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We weep with the families. We stand strong with the people of Spain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Rush hour terror blasts target trains. A Spanish official likened it to 9/11.

HOLLY FIRFER, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Holly Firfer and the government is set to ban a supplement called Andro. We'll tell you why and the dangers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA CO., ARIZ.: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties and all these do-good organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Teen offenders on the chain gang. A sheriff's tough response to kids in trouble.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Miles is off today. This hour's of CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.

We may hear shortly from the king of Spain, Juan Carlos, on today's catastrophic attacks on commuter trains and train stations in Madrid. Here's what we know so

far. Ten virtually simultaneous explosions occurred at three Madrid stations at the height of morning rush hour. No one has claimed responsibility, but the government strongly suspects the separatist terror group ETA.

The Spanish ambassador to Washington likens the carnage, 190 people killed, 1,200 hurt, to the horrors of September 11.

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, himself a survivor of an ETA car bombing nine years ago, calls today's attacks mass murder and vows to crush, not negotiate, with the perpetrators.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour now with the latest from Madrid -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, as the grief, the mourning and the anger rise, the prime minister is calling on all Spaniards to take part in mass rallies tomorrow night in a show of defiance against these killings to confront the killers, as he calls them, these mass murders, he has called them today.

As you mentioned, the king of Spain will address the nation as scheduled for a couple of minutes from now. But I'm standing outside the Atocha Station here in central Madrid where more than 12 hours ago, these simultaneous attacks took place.

One on a train here in this station and others at other trains at other stations. As you mentioned, the death toll is mounting in the region of about 190, as you said, with more than 1,000 people wounded.

The scene here in the morning hours was one of complete panic. It was a war zone, according to the pictures we've seen and according to all the witnesses we've been talking to and our colleagues have been reporting to you throughout the day.

It was as close as war zone as this generation of Spaniards have seen on their home soil. And it was the worst terror attack in Europe in recent memory, if at all.

There were young people and the older people headed at the height of rush hour to university and to the workplace when this catastrophe struck in a series of coordinated bombs, as we said. And there were terrible scenes. People wounded a and dead lying in pools of blood, limbs severed from torsos, young people sitting, you can see them with blood streaming down their faces, using mobile phones to tell their families they were all right.

Makeshift morgues springing up in other parts of the city where panicked families came to check on relatives. And, where according to one nurse, the phones, mobile phones of the dead could still be heard ringing. Presumably people trying to reach them knowing they were on these trains.

This is the work, according to the Ministry of Interior here, of the armed separatist group called ETA. If so, this would be their worst day of attacks ever in their 35-year history of armed struggle. The interior minister has said this shows that ETA is on its back legs because he said they have been confronted by the authorities over the past few years with great success.

But now they're trying, he said, to make a very big show to prove that they're back again in business. Blaming ETA, even though no group has yet taken responsibility -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Even though a group has not taken responsibility, Christiane, you see what happened there in Madrid, Spain. There has been comparisons made to 9/11 in the United States. The question is out there about a known connection between ETA and al Qaeda. What do you know? AMANPOUR: Well, that is still speculation. People here are not talking about that as much as simply blaming ETA. But of course, the numbers speak to comparisons on the scale of 9/11. It's still not comparatively as large as what happened in the United States. But if the death toll rose to about 400 or so, for instance, it would be.

But in terms of the al Qaeda suspicions, of course, many people, analysts, journalists, people sort of sprang to the conclusion that it might be al Qaeda for many reasons.

One, as payback for Spain joining the U.S. war in Iraq. Two, because there has been al Qaeda cells destructed here in Spain before. Three (AUDIO GAP) this attack bears the hallmarks not of ETA but of al Qaeda, these coordinated multiple bombings that ETA has not yet done in its history of armed struggle.

On the other hand, the ministry here saying that they strongly believe it to be ETA because of the type of explosives they've found which is the same used by ETA in previous attacks.

PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour, live from Madrid, Spain, thank you.

The Basque Region you're hearing so much about consists officially of three northern Spanish provinces that in many ways are a country unto themselves. Those separatists consider a fourth province in Spain and three in southwest France Basque territory as well. Population in all? About 3 million.

Independence is by no means a unanimous goal, though it's unclear to many where Basques draw the line between assimilation and autonomy. Basque officials advocate a so-called free association doctrine with Madrid but Madrid says absolutely not.

We'll get fascinating details on the fast dynamic in general and Spain's security situation in particular in just a few minutes. Stay with us for an interview with security analyst Glenn Schoen at the bottom of the hour of LIVE FROM...

Turning to presidential politics. John Kerry explains away a caught on tape comment while courting congressional Democrats. And President Bush takes heat for mixing business with politics at a 9/11 event in New York.

Let's begin with Bob Franken covering the Kerry campaign in Washington. Well, Bob, we heard from him.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We did. Washington is all a twitter today about the Kerry comments yesterday saying -- apparently calling some of his opponents crooked, guilty of lying. That's the kind of thing that becomes a mini controversy.

But apparently it is a mini controversy. The chairman of the Republicans Bush campaign have demanded an apology. Kerry says, no way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have no intention whatsoever of apologizing for my remarks. I think the -- these -- think the Republicans need to start talking about the real issues before the country.

I understand they're going to start a series of attack ads on me tonight on three topics that have nothing to do with health care for Americans, nothing to do with jobs for Americans, nothing to do with education for our kids, nothing to do with cleaner air or cleaner water, nothing to do with making America safer in this world.

They can't talk about those things because George Bush doesn't have a record to run on. He has a record to run away from. And that's what they're trying to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: So John Kerry is following the old, old adage that sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

As for the Republicans, they are probably following the adage that the best offense is a good defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To call people liars and crooks, particularly thinking that were you off-mike, just shows you who the real person is not the person that is set up and coifed for a town meeting for a speech, but the real person. And I think America got a little glimpse of the real John Kerry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: The real John Kerry has spent the day trying to unify Democrats meeting with a variety of congressional Democrats such as the meeting with senators we just saw. Of course he's meeting with one of the primary Democrats who opposed him in the primary, John Edwards, this afternoon. It's all about unity.

The question is does John Kerry believe that his scathing comments about some Republicans unified the Democrats. Many believe that that in fact may just happen -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Bob Franken live from Washington, thank you.

CNN's political unit is keeping an eye on the delegate count for the Democratic National Convention. As of today, John Kerry has exactly the 2,162 delegates he needs to clinch his party's nomination. His nomination is expected to be formalized at the national convention in July.

Some President Bush's critics say they'll be out in force protesting his appearance as at a ground breaking ceremony for a September 11 memorial in New York. The president in Nassau County defending his economic policies and talk jobs with workers at a Bay Shore auto parts factory.

Later this afternoon, he'll pay tribute to victims of the 9/11 attacks. Protesters are expected to show up complaining that Mr. Bush is politicizing that event. Later this evening, the president heads to a fund raiser in East Meadow.

Passions run high in Boston where Massachusetts lawmakers are debating a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages. It was that state's supreme court which ruled gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to wed and set off a spat of same-sex marriages across the country.

CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman joins us in the middle of the protest right there in Boston -- Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, hello to you. We stand amid hundreds of noisy protesters on both sides of the same- sex marriage issue, next to the state capital in the only state that has legalized gay marriage.

But that course may be altered very soon. That's because inside the state capital right now state legislators have just convened a constitutional convention, 160 representatives, 40 senators. And I hope you can still hear me because it is quite loud in here.

But inside, legislators are considering legislation that would ban same-sex marriage, several different bills. One of them would ban marriage but would allow civil unions. But of course, the highest court in this state said last year that gay marriages would be allowed in this state beginning on May 17.

Either way, gay people will start getting married here, because the very earliest a law by the legislature could take effect would be November 2006.

You see people here, they're all mixed together on both sides of the issue. They're not being separated. And you see all kinds of signs here. One woman over here holding a sign, "Equal protection of the laws." You are from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arlington, Massachusetts.

TUCHMAN: And why did you come here today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my -- in November the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts gave me the right to marry my partner. And people are here today to try to revoke that right.

TUCHMAN: I want to move down the line a little bit. Thank you for talking with us. And talk to somebody on the other side of the issue, and that's one of the things we can tell you that's been very peaceful, al though very loud at times.

"Protecting traditional marriage is not discrimination." Why not? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, because it doesn't mean that you're a bigot just because you support traditional marriage. You just believe that marriage should be a union between a man and a woman. And I'm tired of people telling me that I'm discriminatory. I think all men are created equal.

TUCHMAN: Thank you for talking with us.

We can tell that you people are marching around at times, getting in people's faces. But as of now, you can see the police are standing by here. And they haven't had a break-up any fisticuffs at least just yet. This constitutional convention could last throughout much of the evening.

Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Gary Tuchman, thank you so much.

The government is taking action against Andro. It's sold over the counter as a dietary supplement, but the FDA says it can be dangerous. Many of us first heard about it when baseball's Mark McGuire acknowledged that he had taken it. CNN medical correspondent Holly Firfer now joins us with details.

FIRFER: Androstenedione, that's the long version of it, what you're talking about, andro. And what it is is it's actually a hormone that occurs naturally in the body. Once it's in, it converts itself to testosterone and estrogen. It's produced from your adrenal glands, your ovaries, the testes.

Now there is a synthetic version, the Andro that Mark McGuire had used, that basically when ingested does somewhat of the same thing. It's called a steroid precursor. It's not itself a steroid but it does convert into testosterone and estrogen in the body.

And manufacturers say this can help athletes train harder, recover more quickly, build muscle strength and endurance. And that's, as we said, Mark McGuire credited that for some of his performance, 70 homeruns in 1998 with that home run record.

And that's why there is some concerns about it. And even though it's not a steroid, it's a supplement. It can be sold over the counter. It's sold on the Internet. And today, HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson wants to go ahead and ban that and make it regulated like a controlled substance and get it off from over the counter, get it off the Internet, because they believe it could be dangerous.

Senators Joseph Biden, Orrin Hatch want to go ahead and introduce legislation to make that possible, to get that Andro off the market because, Kyra, they say it could be dangerous.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the dangers and the big concerns about this.

FIRFER: As the manufacturers say, it helps you build strength, look at Mark McGuire, it's great. But doctors say there are some adverse health effects.

It can lower the -- your levels of HDL, the good cholesterol, which can also put you as risk for heart disease. It can put you at risk for cancer, infertility, stroke. In men sometimes they say it causes aggressive behavior, very similar to sometimes what steroids will do.

A special concern is for young kids. Young kids who watch Mark McGuire and think I want to be strong, I want to be able to hit 70 homeruns like he does, take this supplement which is now, until today, legal over the counter.

And they are afraid that it could stunt growth, puberty -- if these kids are prepubescent, it could stop the testosterone that you produce naturally in your body. And also it could stunt growth in these children. So they say it's a special concern.

So that is why they want to today take it off the counter, take it off the Internet and make it basically a controlled substance like anabolic steroids are.

PHILLIPS: Right now we're waiting for a press conference on this?

FIRFER: Right. From Tommy Thompson and Senators Biden and Hatch happens.

PHILLIPS: OK, we'll dip into that live, you'll be here to tell us what happens. Holly Firfer, thanks so much.

As we go to break, we want to take to you Bilbao, Spain. Live pictures where thousands of people are gathering in a moment of silence and prayer, remembering those who were killed in the explosions that rocked Madrid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Back to the presidential campaign now and the television ad that appears to test the limits of the long-awaited reform of campaign finance law. Let me get the story from CNN's Bill Schneider.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Here's a campaign ad run by the Democratic Party, paid for by unlimited and unregulated soft money back in 1996.

AD ANNOUNCER: If Newt Gingrich controls Congress and his partner Bob Dole enters the Oval Office, there'll be nobody there to stop them.

SCHNEIDER: Under the McCain/Feingold Reforms now in effect, that ad would be illegal.

Here's a campaign ad, run by an independent group called the Media Fund paid for by unlimited and unregulated soft money, being run now.

AD ANNOUNCER: George Bush's priorities are eroding the American dream. It's time to take our country back from corporate greed, and make America work for every American.

SCHNEIDER: Why is that ad legal? Because it's not being run by the Democratic Party. It's being run by a so-called 527 organization.

LARRY NOBEL, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: What you're seeing on the Democratic side is a number of groups being set up in an essence to shadow what the Democratic Party would normally do with soft money. They're trying now to do it out of these 527 organizations.

SCHNEIDER: The Campaign Finance Law says that any group that tries to influence federal elections must register as a political committee, and its fund raising must be limited and regulated.

Isn't the Media Fund trying to influence a federal election? The Federal Election Commission says maybe not.

SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (R), WISCONSIN: The FEC took the position that if a 527 was not spending money on express advocacy, mainly communications that urge a vote for or against a candidate, it could then operate under the radar screen.

SCHNEIDER: In other words, it can run the ad, paid for by soft money, as long as it stops short of saying "vote against George Bush." Isn't that a loophole?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: As my 15-year-old son would say, Jimmy would say, duh! They're engaged in partisan political activity, so therefore they should be regulated.

SCHNEIDER: Defenders see Republican efforts to ban the anti-Bush ads as moves to stifle dissent. This is a free country. Don't groups have a right to criticize the president?

HAROLD ICKES, DIR., THE MEDIA FUND: They want to chill our contributors. They want to divert our attention and they want to harass us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Most Democrats embrace the cause of campaign finance reform. Now they're exploiting a loophole in the law. How do Democrats justify it? Well, they say it levels the playing field with President Bush who has been much more successful at raising money -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Bill. We're just now being told -- we confirm that President Bush is soon to unleash his first negative ad campaign against John Kerry. I guess this coming out later today. Not surprised by the mud slinging. I guess we kind of knew this was going to happen. SCHNEIDER: We just didn't know it was going to happen this early. And this year it might not be as tough as in the past, at least from the president and from Mr. Kerry for one reason.

Have you noticed in the political ads this year they start out with someone, in effect the president, saying, I'm George Bush and I approve this ad, or I'm John Kerry and I approve that ad?

That's required by the new Campaign Finance Law. The voice of the candidate has to appear in the ad, endorsing the ad. Therefore, I think the White House is not going to go really crazy in attacking John Kerry. I don't think Kerry is going endorse an ad that makes very strong charges against the president of the United States. Those are -- the tough ads are the ones likely to be run by these independent groups.

PHILLIPS: Gotcha. Bill Schneider, thank you.

Straight ahead, terror strikes in Spain, raises big questions for the United States. Is this country securing the rail system against a similar attack? We're going to talk with a security expert.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Live pictures out of Washington, D.C., out of the Health and Human Services press room there. We are awaiting for a news conference to take place. The government cracking down on that steroid-like supplement that we've been do -- telling you about, Andro, made famous by baseball's Mark McGuire. He admitted to taking this.

We're waiting for an announcement from this room, of course talking to companies about whether it will be made available or not any longer. We'll be checking in following that and dip into it live when it happens.

(MARKET UPDATE)

PHILLIPS: Now to Washington, D.C. The head of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, at the podium talking about that crack down on Andro. Let's listen in.

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

PHILLIPS: Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson making the final announcement out of Washington D.C., cracking down on Andro. We've been telling but this. It's a steroid-like supplement made famous after baseball great Mark McGuire admitted to taking this.

Now Tommy Thompson coming forward saying manufacturers must cease the production of Andro unless they can prove it's not dangerous. We're following this story. We'll bring you more.

Take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: Today's terrorist bombings in Madrid being likened to the September 11 attacks in the United States. Ten bombs exploded on commuter trains at the height of morning rush hour. At last report, 190 people were killed, some 1,200 injured. No one has claimed responsibility but many Spanish authorities are blaming the Basque separatist group ETA.

Going after Andro. It's sold as a dietary supplement but federal health officials warn it can be dangerous. They're telling manufacturers to stop producing it unless they can prove it's safe. Andro is a steroid precursor that raises testosterone levels.

And recruiting star athletes. The NCAA is considering tough new rules. The chairman of a task force testified on Capitol Hill today. Measures under consideration include banning university-paid recruitment visits. The hearing comes in the wake of a recruitment scandal at the University of Colorado.

Giving the Federal Communications Commission a bigger stick in the fight against indecency today the House passed legislation raising fines for broadcast stations and performers who break the rules. Similar legislation is being considered in the Senate.

Earlier we told you in just a few hours for the first time, we're going to see the first ad from President Bush's -- well, not necessarily from President Bush, but President Bush supporters attacking John Kerry with more as she's following the president, Suzanne Malveaux. Suzanne, what do you know about these?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we expect the Bush campaign to release these ads later this evening. And what they're going to do, we'll get a little preview of this. One will say John Kerry is wrong on taxes and wrong on defense. They'll be two television ads, one radio, one positive of Bush's presidency, the other one quite critical of Kerry, Senator Kerry.

This comes of course following some criticism from the first set of ads -- the Bush ads, in which there were some images of 9/11 used in those. Some family members as well as New York fire fighters saying that the president was exploiting that tragedy. President Bush here in Long Island, of course, defending his record and of course, his campaign saying they're doing no such thing.

The president just wrapped up an event in which he talked about creating jobs, about the economy. But he also mentioned the role of New Yorkers in September 11. He goes on to say, "it was a devastating blow, a blow to our psychology. This nation rallied, it rallied in large part thanks to the citizens of the great state of New York because they refused to be intimidated by terror."

Now later today, President Bush is going to be attending a ground-breaking ceremony of Nassau County's 9/11 Memorial. Now that of course has also gotten some criticism as well because it is followed by a fund raiser in which it's going to be about $2,000 a head. This fund raiser there are some people criticizing saying that the administration is taking advantage of the terrorist attacks and this tragedy, that they're exploiting this. This comes from the Kerry camp as well as some victims of September 11.

But both the organizers of that memorial as well as the White House say that fund raiser was scheduled well in advance of the memorial and that that group actually invited the president to participate when they realized he was going to be in town -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you so much.

The rush hour bombings of the trains and stations in Madrid are sending shockwaves throughout the continent, not only for the carnage, but what it might bode for Europe and beyond. My guest has unique insights. Glenn Schoen is a Washington-based security analyst who toured Madrid's rails just a week ago. Glenn, thanks for being with us.

GLENN SCHOEN, SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: This just came across actually the AP News Alert. I want to read it to you and get your response. Just seconds ago I got this. The interior minister in Spain saying the police have found a van with detonators and Arabic language tapes of the Quranic versus, now opening up new lines of the investigation into the train bombings.

We've been talking so much about ETA. Now this brings up questions about al Qaeda. Your response I guess, Glenn, from what you know? You toured Madrid and the security areas there. What's your reaction to this news coming across?

SCHOEN: Well, obviously it's going to be something to look at. But for the time being, most of the indications still point at ETA. If we look at the targets, methodology employed, timing of these attacks, and especially the weaponry used, Teledyne is a plastic explosive that ETA has stolen repeatedly from mining companies in southern France over the last two years and analysis this morning showed that that's the explosive employed.

So obviously, we got to keep an open mind, but everything right now still points to the ETA.

PHILLIPS: So what do we know about -- taking into consideration this information now that's coming across about the detonators and the Arab language tapes, what do we know about -- or if there is a known connection between ETA and al Qaeda?

SCHOEN: There is none as far as I'm aware. None whatsoever.

PHILLIPS: So is it possible, looking at this information that just came in, is it possible that this attack could be the work of al Qaeda?

SCHOEN: It could be. It doesn't really fit the pattern of most of their previous attacks. Doesn't fit a lot of what they've been teaching their own people in training camps over the years. The possibility is always there.

But as I stressed, even given this new information right now, most indications still pointing at the ETA.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk -- by the way, you say E-T-A. We've been told ETA. Is it either/or?

SCHOEN: Either/or. Depending who I'm speaking to.

PHILLIPS: All right, thank you. So I'm not saying it incorrectly then?

SCHOEN: No.

PHILLIPS: Good. I've been saying it that way for a long time.

Let's talk about internationally these recent attacks on rail lines. We had the one in France not too long ago. Now Spain. Why attack the train system? I know this is a main source of transportation within Europe. Is that why?

SCHOEN: In part. I mean what terrorists normally look for as much as possible is what we call a vortex target where you are not only doing damage, for instance, to an economy, but also engaging the public, engaging a transportation system, you're impacting tourism, impacting the stock market.

So many things come together here. To the extent that the bombers here were trying to hurt the general public, do damage to Spain as a national entity, to the government, it was a very good one to pick, unfortunately.

PHILLIPS: How many people take the train daily in Spain? Do you know?

SCHOEN: I want to say in larger Madrid area, morning and nighttime commuter included, it's about 6 million.

PHILLIPS: Wow. OK.

There has been reports that ETA was in France holding some secret meetings. And then you see the attack that happened in France, this attack now in Spain. What do you think of that?

SCHOEN: Well, what I really worry about is that this attack was very efficient. Whoever carried it out. No suicide bombers involved. Probably have a cell from anywhere from five to 15 people leaving these bombs behind, disappearing in the crowds and getting off, no detection yet, no suspects yet.

And the impact of course is enormous. This is the biggest attack we've ever seen in Western Europe. And even if you look at things like what just happened on the subway in Moscow, this simply blows it out of the water.

And sadly, what's going to be a problem here is other terrorist groups looking at this and seeing how effective this operation was, and perhaps looking to copy it in some fashion.

PHILLIPS: Now looking at the U.S. system, Washington, D.C., New York, so many people take the train. When we talk about security on trains in the United States, are we better off, worse off than Europe?

SCHOEN: I'd probably say roughly the same. We have less rolling stock so that's -- we have less major rail lines to cover, so that's a plus. Problematically we're a bit more vulnerable in the sense that we don't have that security awareness here, even after 9/11, that a lot of countries that have a high domestic terrorism problem do.

So when we add it all up, if somebody wanted to do something with trains here, probably wouldn't be all that difficult to do.

PHILLIPS: So, Glenn, what would be your ideal preventative package for security on trains, both the United States and in internationally?

SCHOEN: Well, that's tough one. But if we can sort of put a bit more effort in the preventative and detection sphere, I think that would be most helpful. And it's something our government since 9/11 has been working on. Of course the challenge for America is we have so many of these transportation infrastructure segments to cover. We're worried not just about the rail lines, for instance, but tunnels and bridges and so on.

So it's exceptionally hard for us to really wrap our arms around it. But certainly looking at can we do more with cameras at stations, placing more personnel aboard trains, essentially making it less of an appetizing target for terrorists.

PHILLIPS: When you were overseas in Madrid, you said you toured the train security facility. Tell me what that is and sort of give me a description and tell me about that tour.

SCHOEN: Actually, what this was, was the headquarters for the subway system in Madrid. And very modern system, well protected underground, co-located near a railroad station, not too far actually from where this attack took place. And you had their command center of about 40 people helping arrange the movement of trains, looking after safety and security.

And one of the things that struck me I asked the director there, I said, aren't you worried about ETA doing something? And he made something close to -- I won't say a prayer gesture, but, you know, just indicating we've been very, very fortunate. And obviously, this awful incident today, the worst fears have come true.

PHILLIPS: Glenn Schoen, Washington-based security analyst who just came back from Madrid, sort of ironic, we appreciate your time. We'll continue to follow this story with you. Thanks so much, Glenn.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: We're going to go back to Madrid, Spain now. Christiane Amanpour with us as this new information comes in about the interior minister out of Spain talking about police, finding a van with detonators and Arabic language tapes.

Christiane, what do you know as you get this information? It's sort of ironic, you and I were talking about a possible connection with al Qaeda. This is interesting information.

AMANPOUR: Yes, they're still not saying al Qaeda. And the interior ministry is still saying that ETA is the main suspects. But, they say, now they have found a new element and they're opening an additional line of inquiry.

Now according to interior ministry spokesmen that we spoke to, the -- they're saying that according -- they got a citizen's tip which led them to a van in a town outside of Madrid, a town that's a university town, that happens to be on the commuter line that these trains were on today.

In that van, we're told, they found eight detonators, and a tape in Arabic that was about Quranic teachings. This, we're told, was a commercially available tape, it's a tape that can be store-bought. And according to the spokesman from the Ministry of Interior, it contained no threat.

So they're saying this is a new element which has been brought to their attention by a citizen's tip today and they're looking into it and they are opening a line of investigation to investigate exactly what this might add up to.

(AUDIO GAP) ETA is still the prime suspect in what happened today.

PHILLIPS: Christiane, did your sources tell you if indeed investigators as they do open up the lines of this investigation, does that mean they now will look into a possible connection between al Qaeda and ETA?

AMANPOUR: Well, we've asked them that. And they won't precisely use the al Qaeda word. But they say, this is what we're telling you. We're also telling you we're opening a new line of investigation. We're going to find what we can find, and we'll give you more once we have it.

As I say, they are not saying al Qaeda right now. At least not at this moment. Have to acknowledge that these things are changing. And as you can see, the same interior minister who gave the definitive press conference about who was to blame just several hours ago is now saying now we've found this.

So things may develop and we will keep abreast of those developments and bring them to you.

PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour live from Madrid, Spain. Thanks so much.

We're going to take a quick break and we'll continue to follow this story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: For years now, a sheriff in phoenix has chained his reputation to refusing to tolerate nonsense. His newest crime fighting ploys involves chaining up teenage offenders. CNN's Eric Philips reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate this chain, man.

ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are minors tried as adults. And they're are part of a juvenile chain gang picking up trash in Phoenix.

ARPAIO: These juveniles have committed armed robbery, burglary. You name it, they've committed it.

PHILIPS: This is just the latest in the string of controversial moves for Maricopa County Joe Arpaio. The sheriff calls himself an equally opportunity incarcerator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's crazy.

PHILIPS: He tells the teens they'll get no free rides.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like this idea about us coming down here, but some of the stuff I don't agree with.

PHILIPS: In his 12 years in office Arpaio has made male inmates wear prison stripes and pink underwear. There's no TV, no coffee, no nudie magazines.

Then there are the chain gangs. He first instituted the male chain gang in 1985. And started the female chain gang in 1996.

And now a juvenile chain gang. All of them are volunteer. The teens earn a high school credit toward a diploma from Hard Knocks High, the school program at the county jail.

Adults use the gangs to work their way out of lockdowns where they've been placed because of disciplinary problems.

Some critics call Arpaio's methods barbaric, criticism he dismisses.

ARPAIO: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties and all these do-good organizations.

PHILIPS: Arpaio's approval ratings in Phoenix remain at 80 to 85 percent to 85 percent.

Eric Philips, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pressure, the money, the fame, the teamwork. Racing is everything to me. It's everything I love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gentleman, start your engines!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Oh, man. Adrenalin. It's flowing. NASCAR gets in your face and goes 3-D. It's coming to an IMAX theater near you.

Ahead next hour, we'll talk with stock car racing long-time driver Ken Schrader about a new movie slinging lug nuts and tossing tires right at . It's pretty cool. We'll take a quick break. We'll race on right after this.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 11, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We weep with the families. We stand strong with the people of Spain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Rush hour terror blasts target trains. A Spanish official likened it to 9/11.

HOLLY FIRFER, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Holly Firfer and the government is set to ban a supplement called Andro. We'll tell you why and the dangers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA CO., ARIZ.: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties and all these do-good organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Teen offenders on the chain gang. A sheriff's tough response to kids in trouble.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Miles is off today. This hour's of CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.

We may hear shortly from the king of Spain, Juan Carlos, on today's catastrophic attacks on commuter trains and train stations in Madrid. Here's what we know so

far. Ten virtually simultaneous explosions occurred at three Madrid stations at the height of morning rush hour. No one has claimed responsibility, but the government strongly suspects the separatist terror group ETA.

The Spanish ambassador to Washington likens the carnage, 190 people killed, 1,200 hurt, to the horrors of September 11.

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, himself a survivor of an ETA car bombing nine years ago, calls today's attacks mass murder and vows to crush, not negotiate, with the perpetrators.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour now with the latest from Madrid -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, as the grief, the mourning and the anger rise, the prime minister is calling on all Spaniards to take part in mass rallies tomorrow night in a show of defiance against these killings to confront the killers, as he calls them, these mass murders, he has called them today.

As you mentioned, the king of Spain will address the nation as scheduled for a couple of minutes from now. But I'm standing outside the Atocha Station here in central Madrid where more than 12 hours ago, these simultaneous attacks took place.

One on a train here in this station and others at other trains at other stations. As you mentioned, the death toll is mounting in the region of about 190, as you said, with more than 1,000 people wounded.

The scene here in the morning hours was one of complete panic. It was a war zone, according to the pictures we've seen and according to all the witnesses we've been talking to and our colleagues have been reporting to you throughout the day.

It was as close as war zone as this generation of Spaniards have seen on their home soil. And it was the worst terror attack in Europe in recent memory, if at all.

There were young people and the older people headed at the height of rush hour to university and to the workplace when this catastrophe struck in a series of coordinated bombs, as we said. And there were terrible scenes. People wounded a and dead lying in pools of blood, limbs severed from torsos, young people sitting, you can see them with blood streaming down their faces, using mobile phones to tell their families they were all right.

Makeshift morgues springing up in other parts of the city where panicked families came to check on relatives. And, where according to one nurse, the phones, mobile phones of the dead could still be heard ringing. Presumably people trying to reach them knowing they were on these trains.

This is the work, according to the Ministry of Interior here, of the armed separatist group called ETA. If so, this would be their worst day of attacks ever in their 35-year history of armed struggle. The interior minister has said this shows that ETA is on its back legs because he said they have been confronted by the authorities over the past few years with great success.

But now they're trying, he said, to make a very big show to prove that they're back again in business. Blaming ETA, even though no group has yet taken responsibility -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Even though a group has not taken responsibility, Christiane, you see what happened there in Madrid, Spain. There has been comparisons made to 9/11 in the United States. The question is out there about a known connection between ETA and al Qaeda. What do you know? AMANPOUR: Well, that is still speculation. People here are not talking about that as much as simply blaming ETA. But of course, the numbers speak to comparisons on the scale of 9/11. It's still not comparatively as large as what happened in the United States. But if the death toll rose to about 400 or so, for instance, it would be.

But in terms of the al Qaeda suspicions, of course, many people, analysts, journalists, people sort of sprang to the conclusion that it might be al Qaeda for many reasons.

One, as payback for Spain joining the U.S. war in Iraq. Two, because there has been al Qaeda cells destructed here in Spain before. Three (AUDIO GAP) this attack bears the hallmarks not of ETA but of al Qaeda, these coordinated multiple bombings that ETA has not yet done in its history of armed struggle.

On the other hand, the ministry here saying that they strongly believe it to be ETA because of the type of explosives they've found which is the same used by ETA in previous attacks.

PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour, live from Madrid, Spain, thank you.

The Basque Region you're hearing so much about consists officially of three northern Spanish provinces that in many ways are a country unto themselves. Those separatists consider a fourth province in Spain and three in southwest France Basque territory as well. Population in all? About 3 million.

Independence is by no means a unanimous goal, though it's unclear to many where Basques draw the line between assimilation and autonomy. Basque officials advocate a so-called free association doctrine with Madrid but Madrid says absolutely not.

We'll get fascinating details on the fast dynamic in general and Spain's security situation in particular in just a few minutes. Stay with us for an interview with security analyst Glenn Schoen at the bottom of the hour of LIVE FROM...

Turning to presidential politics. John Kerry explains away a caught on tape comment while courting congressional Democrats. And President Bush takes heat for mixing business with politics at a 9/11 event in New York.

Let's begin with Bob Franken covering the Kerry campaign in Washington. Well, Bob, we heard from him.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We did. Washington is all a twitter today about the Kerry comments yesterday saying -- apparently calling some of his opponents crooked, guilty of lying. That's the kind of thing that becomes a mini controversy.

But apparently it is a mini controversy. The chairman of the Republicans Bush campaign have demanded an apology. Kerry says, no way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have no intention whatsoever of apologizing for my remarks. I think the -- these -- think the Republicans need to start talking about the real issues before the country.

I understand they're going to start a series of attack ads on me tonight on three topics that have nothing to do with health care for Americans, nothing to do with jobs for Americans, nothing to do with education for our kids, nothing to do with cleaner air or cleaner water, nothing to do with making America safer in this world.

They can't talk about those things because George Bush doesn't have a record to run on. He has a record to run away from. And that's what they're trying to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: So John Kerry is following the old, old adage that sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

As for the Republicans, they are probably following the adage that the best offense is a good defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To call people liars and crooks, particularly thinking that were you off-mike, just shows you who the real person is not the person that is set up and coifed for a town meeting for a speech, but the real person. And I think America got a little glimpse of the real John Kerry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: The real John Kerry has spent the day trying to unify Democrats meeting with a variety of congressional Democrats such as the meeting with senators we just saw. Of course he's meeting with one of the primary Democrats who opposed him in the primary, John Edwards, this afternoon. It's all about unity.

The question is does John Kerry believe that his scathing comments about some Republicans unified the Democrats. Many believe that that in fact may just happen -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Bob Franken live from Washington, thank you.

CNN's political unit is keeping an eye on the delegate count for the Democratic National Convention. As of today, John Kerry has exactly the 2,162 delegates he needs to clinch his party's nomination. His nomination is expected to be formalized at the national convention in July.

Some President Bush's critics say they'll be out in force protesting his appearance as at a ground breaking ceremony for a September 11 memorial in New York. The president in Nassau County defending his economic policies and talk jobs with workers at a Bay Shore auto parts factory.

Later this afternoon, he'll pay tribute to victims of the 9/11 attacks. Protesters are expected to show up complaining that Mr. Bush is politicizing that event. Later this evening, the president heads to a fund raiser in East Meadow.

Passions run high in Boston where Massachusetts lawmakers are debating a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages. It was that state's supreme court which ruled gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to wed and set off a spat of same-sex marriages across the country.

CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman joins us in the middle of the protest right there in Boston -- Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, hello to you. We stand amid hundreds of noisy protesters on both sides of the same- sex marriage issue, next to the state capital in the only state that has legalized gay marriage.

But that course may be altered very soon. That's because inside the state capital right now state legislators have just convened a constitutional convention, 160 representatives, 40 senators. And I hope you can still hear me because it is quite loud in here.

But inside, legislators are considering legislation that would ban same-sex marriage, several different bills. One of them would ban marriage but would allow civil unions. But of course, the highest court in this state said last year that gay marriages would be allowed in this state beginning on May 17.

Either way, gay people will start getting married here, because the very earliest a law by the legislature could take effect would be November 2006.

You see people here, they're all mixed together on both sides of the issue. They're not being separated. And you see all kinds of signs here. One woman over here holding a sign, "Equal protection of the laws." You are from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arlington, Massachusetts.

TUCHMAN: And why did you come here today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my -- in November the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts gave me the right to marry my partner. And people are here today to try to revoke that right.

TUCHMAN: I want to move down the line a little bit. Thank you for talking with us. And talk to somebody on the other side of the issue, and that's one of the things we can tell you that's been very peaceful, al though very loud at times.

"Protecting traditional marriage is not discrimination." Why not? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, because it doesn't mean that you're a bigot just because you support traditional marriage. You just believe that marriage should be a union between a man and a woman. And I'm tired of people telling me that I'm discriminatory. I think all men are created equal.

TUCHMAN: Thank you for talking with us.

We can tell that you people are marching around at times, getting in people's faces. But as of now, you can see the police are standing by here. And they haven't had a break-up any fisticuffs at least just yet. This constitutional convention could last throughout much of the evening.

Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Gary Tuchman, thank you so much.

The government is taking action against Andro. It's sold over the counter as a dietary supplement, but the FDA says it can be dangerous. Many of us first heard about it when baseball's Mark McGuire acknowledged that he had taken it. CNN medical correspondent Holly Firfer now joins us with details.

FIRFER: Androstenedione, that's the long version of it, what you're talking about, andro. And what it is is it's actually a hormone that occurs naturally in the body. Once it's in, it converts itself to testosterone and estrogen. It's produced from your adrenal glands, your ovaries, the testes.

Now there is a synthetic version, the Andro that Mark McGuire had used, that basically when ingested does somewhat of the same thing. It's called a steroid precursor. It's not itself a steroid but it does convert into testosterone and estrogen in the body.

And manufacturers say this can help athletes train harder, recover more quickly, build muscle strength and endurance. And that's, as we said, Mark McGuire credited that for some of his performance, 70 homeruns in 1998 with that home run record.

And that's why there is some concerns about it. And even though it's not a steroid, it's a supplement. It can be sold over the counter. It's sold on the Internet. And today, HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson wants to go ahead and ban that and make it regulated like a controlled substance and get it off from over the counter, get it off the Internet, because they believe it could be dangerous.

Senators Joseph Biden, Orrin Hatch want to go ahead and introduce legislation to make that possible, to get that Andro off the market because, Kyra, they say it could be dangerous.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the dangers and the big concerns about this.

FIRFER: As the manufacturers say, it helps you build strength, look at Mark McGuire, it's great. But doctors say there are some adverse health effects.

It can lower the -- your levels of HDL, the good cholesterol, which can also put you as risk for heart disease. It can put you at risk for cancer, infertility, stroke. In men sometimes they say it causes aggressive behavior, very similar to sometimes what steroids will do.

A special concern is for young kids. Young kids who watch Mark McGuire and think I want to be strong, I want to be able to hit 70 homeruns like he does, take this supplement which is now, until today, legal over the counter.

And they are afraid that it could stunt growth, puberty -- if these kids are prepubescent, it could stop the testosterone that you produce naturally in your body. And also it could stunt growth in these children. So they say it's a special concern.

So that is why they want to today take it off the counter, take it off the Internet and make it basically a controlled substance like anabolic steroids are.

PHILLIPS: Right now we're waiting for a press conference on this?

FIRFER: Right. From Tommy Thompson and Senators Biden and Hatch happens.

PHILLIPS: OK, we'll dip into that live, you'll be here to tell us what happens. Holly Firfer, thanks so much.

As we go to break, we want to take to you Bilbao, Spain. Live pictures where thousands of people are gathering in a moment of silence and prayer, remembering those who were killed in the explosions that rocked Madrid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Back to the presidential campaign now and the television ad that appears to test the limits of the long-awaited reform of campaign finance law. Let me get the story from CNN's Bill Schneider.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Here's a campaign ad run by the Democratic Party, paid for by unlimited and unregulated soft money back in 1996.

AD ANNOUNCER: If Newt Gingrich controls Congress and his partner Bob Dole enters the Oval Office, there'll be nobody there to stop them.

SCHNEIDER: Under the McCain/Feingold Reforms now in effect, that ad would be illegal.

Here's a campaign ad, run by an independent group called the Media Fund paid for by unlimited and unregulated soft money, being run now.

AD ANNOUNCER: George Bush's priorities are eroding the American dream. It's time to take our country back from corporate greed, and make America work for every American.

SCHNEIDER: Why is that ad legal? Because it's not being run by the Democratic Party. It's being run by a so-called 527 organization.

LARRY NOBEL, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: What you're seeing on the Democratic side is a number of groups being set up in an essence to shadow what the Democratic Party would normally do with soft money. They're trying now to do it out of these 527 organizations.

SCHNEIDER: The Campaign Finance Law says that any group that tries to influence federal elections must register as a political committee, and its fund raising must be limited and regulated.

Isn't the Media Fund trying to influence a federal election? The Federal Election Commission says maybe not.

SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (R), WISCONSIN: The FEC took the position that if a 527 was not spending money on express advocacy, mainly communications that urge a vote for or against a candidate, it could then operate under the radar screen.

SCHNEIDER: In other words, it can run the ad, paid for by soft money, as long as it stops short of saying "vote against George Bush." Isn't that a loophole?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: As my 15-year-old son would say, Jimmy would say, duh! They're engaged in partisan political activity, so therefore they should be regulated.

SCHNEIDER: Defenders see Republican efforts to ban the anti-Bush ads as moves to stifle dissent. This is a free country. Don't groups have a right to criticize the president?

HAROLD ICKES, DIR., THE MEDIA FUND: They want to chill our contributors. They want to divert our attention and they want to harass us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Most Democrats embrace the cause of campaign finance reform. Now they're exploiting a loophole in the law. How do Democrats justify it? Well, they say it levels the playing field with President Bush who has been much more successful at raising money -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Bill. We're just now being told -- we confirm that President Bush is soon to unleash his first negative ad campaign against John Kerry. I guess this coming out later today. Not surprised by the mud slinging. I guess we kind of knew this was going to happen. SCHNEIDER: We just didn't know it was going to happen this early. And this year it might not be as tough as in the past, at least from the president and from Mr. Kerry for one reason.

Have you noticed in the political ads this year they start out with someone, in effect the president, saying, I'm George Bush and I approve this ad, or I'm John Kerry and I approve that ad?

That's required by the new Campaign Finance Law. The voice of the candidate has to appear in the ad, endorsing the ad. Therefore, I think the White House is not going to go really crazy in attacking John Kerry. I don't think Kerry is going endorse an ad that makes very strong charges against the president of the United States. Those are -- the tough ads are the ones likely to be run by these independent groups.

PHILLIPS: Gotcha. Bill Schneider, thank you.

Straight ahead, terror strikes in Spain, raises big questions for the United States. Is this country securing the rail system against a similar attack? We're going to talk with a security expert.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Live pictures out of Washington, D.C., out of the Health and Human Services press room there. We are awaiting for a news conference to take place. The government cracking down on that steroid-like supplement that we've been do -- telling you about, Andro, made famous by baseball's Mark McGuire. He admitted to taking this.

We're waiting for an announcement from this room, of course talking to companies about whether it will be made available or not any longer. We'll be checking in following that and dip into it live when it happens.

(MARKET UPDATE)

PHILLIPS: Now to Washington, D.C. The head of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, at the podium talking about that crack down on Andro. Let's listen in.

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

PHILLIPS: Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson making the final announcement out of Washington D.C., cracking down on Andro. We've been telling but this. It's a steroid-like supplement made famous after baseball great Mark McGuire admitted to taking this.

Now Tommy Thompson coming forward saying manufacturers must cease the production of Andro unless they can prove it's not dangerous. We're following this story. We'll bring you more.

Take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: Today's terrorist bombings in Madrid being likened to the September 11 attacks in the United States. Ten bombs exploded on commuter trains at the height of morning rush hour. At last report, 190 people were killed, some 1,200 injured. No one has claimed responsibility but many Spanish authorities are blaming the Basque separatist group ETA.

Going after Andro. It's sold as a dietary supplement but federal health officials warn it can be dangerous. They're telling manufacturers to stop producing it unless they can prove it's safe. Andro is a steroid precursor that raises testosterone levels.

And recruiting star athletes. The NCAA is considering tough new rules. The chairman of a task force testified on Capitol Hill today. Measures under consideration include banning university-paid recruitment visits. The hearing comes in the wake of a recruitment scandal at the University of Colorado.

Giving the Federal Communications Commission a bigger stick in the fight against indecency today the House passed legislation raising fines for broadcast stations and performers who break the rules. Similar legislation is being considered in the Senate.

Earlier we told you in just a few hours for the first time, we're going to see the first ad from President Bush's -- well, not necessarily from President Bush, but President Bush supporters attacking John Kerry with more as she's following the president, Suzanne Malveaux. Suzanne, what do you know about these?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we expect the Bush campaign to release these ads later this evening. And what they're going to do, we'll get a little preview of this. One will say John Kerry is wrong on taxes and wrong on defense. They'll be two television ads, one radio, one positive of Bush's presidency, the other one quite critical of Kerry, Senator Kerry.

This comes of course following some criticism from the first set of ads -- the Bush ads, in which there were some images of 9/11 used in those. Some family members as well as New York fire fighters saying that the president was exploiting that tragedy. President Bush here in Long Island, of course, defending his record and of course, his campaign saying they're doing no such thing.

The president just wrapped up an event in which he talked about creating jobs, about the economy. But he also mentioned the role of New Yorkers in September 11. He goes on to say, "it was a devastating blow, a blow to our psychology. This nation rallied, it rallied in large part thanks to the citizens of the great state of New York because they refused to be intimidated by terror."

Now later today, President Bush is going to be attending a ground-breaking ceremony of Nassau County's 9/11 Memorial. Now that of course has also gotten some criticism as well because it is followed by a fund raiser in which it's going to be about $2,000 a head. This fund raiser there are some people criticizing saying that the administration is taking advantage of the terrorist attacks and this tragedy, that they're exploiting this. This comes from the Kerry camp as well as some victims of September 11.

But both the organizers of that memorial as well as the White House say that fund raiser was scheduled well in advance of the memorial and that that group actually invited the president to participate when they realized he was going to be in town -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you so much.

The rush hour bombings of the trains and stations in Madrid are sending shockwaves throughout the continent, not only for the carnage, but what it might bode for Europe and beyond. My guest has unique insights. Glenn Schoen is a Washington-based security analyst who toured Madrid's rails just a week ago. Glenn, thanks for being with us.

GLENN SCHOEN, SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: This just came across actually the AP News Alert. I want to read it to you and get your response. Just seconds ago I got this. The interior minister in Spain saying the police have found a van with detonators and Arabic language tapes of the Quranic versus, now opening up new lines of the investigation into the train bombings.

We've been talking so much about ETA. Now this brings up questions about al Qaeda. Your response I guess, Glenn, from what you know? You toured Madrid and the security areas there. What's your reaction to this news coming across?

SCHOEN: Well, obviously it's going to be something to look at. But for the time being, most of the indications still point at ETA. If we look at the targets, methodology employed, timing of these attacks, and especially the weaponry used, Teledyne is a plastic explosive that ETA has stolen repeatedly from mining companies in southern France over the last two years and analysis this morning showed that that's the explosive employed.

So obviously, we got to keep an open mind, but everything right now still points to the ETA.

PHILLIPS: So what do we know about -- taking into consideration this information now that's coming across about the detonators and the Arab language tapes, what do we know about -- or if there is a known connection between ETA and al Qaeda?

SCHOEN: There is none as far as I'm aware. None whatsoever.

PHILLIPS: So is it possible, looking at this information that just came in, is it possible that this attack could be the work of al Qaeda?

SCHOEN: It could be. It doesn't really fit the pattern of most of their previous attacks. Doesn't fit a lot of what they've been teaching their own people in training camps over the years. The possibility is always there.

But as I stressed, even given this new information right now, most indications still pointing at the ETA.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk -- by the way, you say E-T-A. We've been told ETA. Is it either/or?

SCHOEN: Either/or. Depending who I'm speaking to.

PHILLIPS: All right, thank you. So I'm not saying it incorrectly then?

SCHOEN: No.

PHILLIPS: Good. I've been saying it that way for a long time.

Let's talk about internationally these recent attacks on rail lines. We had the one in France not too long ago. Now Spain. Why attack the train system? I know this is a main source of transportation within Europe. Is that why?

SCHOEN: In part. I mean what terrorists normally look for as much as possible is what we call a vortex target where you are not only doing damage, for instance, to an economy, but also engaging the public, engaging a transportation system, you're impacting tourism, impacting the stock market.

So many things come together here. To the extent that the bombers here were trying to hurt the general public, do damage to Spain as a national entity, to the government, it was a very good one to pick, unfortunately.

PHILLIPS: How many people take the train daily in Spain? Do you know?

SCHOEN: I want to say in larger Madrid area, morning and nighttime commuter included, it's about 6 million.

PHILLIPS: Wow. OK.

There has been reports that ETA was in France holding some secret meetings. And then you see the attack that happened in France, this attack now in Spain. What do you think of that?

SCHOEN: Well, what I really worry about is that this attack was very efficient. Whoever carried it out. No suicide bombers involved. Probably have a cell from anywhere from five to 15 people leaving these bombs behind, disappearing in the crowds and getting off, no detection yet, no suspects yet.

And the impact of course is enormous. This is the biggest attack we've ever seen in Western Europe. And even if you look at things like what just happened on the subway in Moscow, this simply blows it out of the water.

And sadly, what's going to be a problem here is other terrorist groups looking at this and seeing how effective this operation was, and perhaps looking to copy it in some fashion.

PHILLIPS: Now looking at the U.S. system, Washington, D.C., New York, so many people take the train. When we talk about security on trains in the United States, are we better off, worse off than Europe?

SCHOEN: I'd probably say roughly the same. We have less rolling stock so that's -- we have less major rail lines to cover, so that's a plus. Problematically we're a bit more vulnerable in the sense that we don't have that security awareness here, even after 9/11, that a lot of countries that have a high domestic terrorism problem do.

So when we add it all up, if somebody wanted to do something with trains here, probably wouldn't be all that difficult to do.

PHILLIPS: So, Glenn, what would be your ideal preventative package for security on trains, both the United States and in internationally?

SCHOEN: Well, that's tough one. But if we can sort of put a bit more effort in the preventative and detection sphere, I think that would be most helpful. And it's something our government since 9/11 has been working on. Of course the challenge for America is we have so many of these transportation infrastructure segments to cover. We're worried not just about the rail lines, for instance, but tunnels and bridges and so on.

So it's exceptionally hard for us to really wrap our arms around it. But certainly looking at can we do more with cameras at stations, placing more personnel aboard trains, essentially making it less of an appetizing target for terrorists.

PHILLIPS: When you were overseas in Madrid, you said you toured the train security facility. Tell me what that is and sort of give me a description and tell me about that tour.

SCHOEN: Actually, what this was, was the headquarters for the subway system in Madrid. And very modern system, well protected underground, co-located near a railroad station, not too far actually from where this attack took place. And you had their command center of about 40 people helping arrange the movement of trains, looking after safety and security.

And one of the things that struck me I asked the director there, I said, aren't you worried about ETA doing something? And he made something close to -- I won't say a prayer gesture, but, you know, just indicating we've been very, very fortunate. And obviously, this awful incident today, the worst fears have come true.

PHILLIPS: Glenn Schoen, Washington-based security analyst who just came back from Madrid, sort of ironic, we appreciate your time. We'll continue to follow this story with you. Thanks so much, Glenn.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: We're going to go back to Madrid, Spain now. Christiane Amanpour with us as this new information comes in about the interior minister out of Spain talking about police, finding a van with detonators and Arabic language tapes.

Christiane, what do you know as you get this information? It's sort of ironic, you and I were talking about a possible connection with al Qaeda. This is interesting information.

AMANPOUR: Yes, they're still not saying al Qaeda. And the interior ministry is still saying that ETA is the main suspects. But, they say, now they have found a new element and they're opening an additional line of inquiry.

Now according to interior ministry spokesmen that we spoke to, the -- they're saying that according -- they got a citizen's tip which led them to a van in a town outside of Madrid, a town that's a university town, that happens to be on the commuter line that these trains were on today.

In that van, we're told, they found eight detonators, and a tape in Arabic that was about Quranic teachings. This, we're told, was a commercially available tape, it's a tape that can be store-bought. And according to the spokesman from the Ministry of Interior, it contained no threat.

So they're saying this is a new element which has been brought to their attention by a citizen's tip today and they're looking into it and they are opening a line of investigation to investigate exactly what this might add up to.

(AUDIO GAP) ETA is still the prime suspect in what happened today.

PHILLIPS: Christiane, did your sources tell you if indeed investigators as they do open up the lines of this investigation, does that mean they now will look into a possible connection between al Qaeda and ETA?

AMANPOUR: Well, we've asked them that. And they won't precisely use the al Qaeda word. But they say, this is what we're telling you. We're also telling you we're opening a new line of investigation. We're going to find what we can find, and we'll give you more once we have it.

As I say, they are not saying al Qaeda right now. At least not at this moment. Have to acknowledge that these things are changing. And as you can see, the same interior minister who gave the definitive press conference about who was to blame just several hours ago is now saying now we've found this.

So things may develop and we will keep abreast of those developments and bring them to you.

PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour live from Madrid, Spain. Thanks so much.

We're going to take a quick break and we'll continue to follow this story right after this.

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PHILLIPS: For years now, a sheriff in phoenix has chained his reputation to refusing to tolerate nonsense. His newest crime fighting ploys involves chaining up teenage offenders. CNN's Eric Philips reports.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate this chain, man.

ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are minors tried as adults. And they're are part of a juvenile chain gang picking up trash in Phoenix.

ARPAIO: These juveniles have committed armed robbery, burglary. You name it, they've committed it.

PHILIPS: This is just the latest in the string of controversial moves for Maricopa County Joe Arpaio. The sheriff calls himself an equally opportunity incarcerator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's crazy.

PHILIPS: He tells the teens they'll get no free rides.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like this idea about us coming down here, but some of the stuff I don't agree with.

PHILIPS: In his 12 years in office Arpaio has made male inmates wear prison stripes and pink underwear. There's no TV, no coffee, no nudie magazines.

Then there are the chain gangs. He first instituted the male chain gang in 1985. And started the female chain gang in 1996.

And now a juvenile chain gang. All of them are volunteer. The teens earn a high school credit toward a diploma from Hard Knocks High, the school program at the county jail.

Adults use the gangs to work their way out of lockdowns where they've been placed because of disciplinary problems.

Some critics call Arpaio's methods barbaric, criticism he dismisses.

ARPAIO: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties and all these do-good organizations.

PHILIPS: Arpaio's approval ratings in Phoenix remain at 80 to 85 percent to 85 percent.

Eric Philips, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pressure, the money, the fame, the teamwork. Racing is everything to me. It's everything I love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gentleman, start your engines!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Oh, man. Adrenalin. It's flowing. NASCAR gets in your face and goes 3-D. It's coming to an IMAX theater near you.

Ahead next hour, we'll talk with stock car racing long-time driver Ken Schrader about a new movie slinging lug nuts and tossing tires right at . It's pretty cool. We'll take a quick break. We'll race on right after this.

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