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Spaniards Responding to Act of Terror With Display of Solidarity; Investigators Looking Beyond Separatist Terror Group Publicly Accused

Aired March 12, 2004 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips off today. Here's what's all new this half hour.
New tactics in the war on terror. Lessons America is learning from fighting the battle in the Philippines.

And if you know a child with attention deficit disorder, a story you will not want to miss. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has a word of new approach to treating the problem.

But first, the top stories that we're following for you.

In Spain, a massive solidarity rally in the wake of yesterday's horrific train attacks in Madrid. Braving rain and cold, huge crowds came together today to display national sorrow. Live picture there's now. Nearly 200 were killed, another 1,400 wounded in those attacks.

California's highest court putting the brakes on same sex weddings in San Francisco, at least for now. The court wants time to decide whether the unions are legal. More than 4,000 same-sex couples have tied the knot in San Francisco since February 12.

Martha Stewart is negotiating terms for her departure from the board of the company she founded. A source close to the talks says Stewart might retain some sort of creative role in Martha Stewart Living OmniMedia.

Well, as we've been reporting, Spaniards tonight are responding to a historic act of terror with a breathtaking display of solidarity. Investigators are looking beyond the separatist terror group they'd publicly accused from the outset. CNN's Sheila MacVicar joining us from London with the latest -- Sheila.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, a rather confused picture of the investigation tonight. We have two claims -- or rather denials of responsibility from that Spanish separatist group, a group which has sought to achieve political means through terrorist acts since the late 1950s.

Now, someone claiming to represent that group, ETA, has called two Basque news media outlets and said that ETA denies all responsibility. Now, that denial of responsibility came just minutes after Spain's interior minister finished a news conference at which he said that will ETA remained the government's No. 1 suspect. The Interior Ministry tonight following that news conference and its denial of responsibility on the part of ETA, sort of saying they had no comment, that the investigation was continuing.

The evidence itself coming from the investigation is presenting a confused picture. Things -- there are some things which point towards ETA. There are other things which point more in the direction of Islamists perhaps even al Qaeda-related terror, Miles.

It will be some time before investigators are able to say with certainty precisely who was responsible. And of course, seeing those crowds out there on those streets of Madrid and other Spanish cities, you could understand perhaps why a group like ETA, if indeed it was responsible, would choose to deny that responsibility -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sheila, let's talk just for a moment about what is the typical pattern in an ETA attack. Over the past 30 years, there have been hundreds of them. And how this one is really a departure in many ways.

MACVICAR: Well, that's precisely the reason why the question of the possible involvement of an Islamist faction or an Islamist group has come up in this.

ETA has over the course of the 30 years where it's been an active terror organization obviously developed a profile. It very frequently issues warnings in advance. It very rarely indiscriminately targets civilians.

The last time something like that happened was in 1987. They blew up a supermarket in Barcelona killing 21. ETA admitted responsibility and apologized for the mistake. It almost always issues a claim of responsibility when, in fact, it has carried out an action.

So you have a number of things which just don't fit the profile of what happened yesterday. This massive bombing of 13 at least, possibly 14 different bombs all exploding almost simultaneously, targeting indiscriminately civilians. And that is one of the reasons, the very key reasons, the difference in the modus operandi, why people are looking elsewhere and suggesting that it could in fact be Islamists.

If it was ETA, this change, this dramatic shift in targets and tactics would suggest that something pretty dramatic has happened inside that group. The group's been under a lot of pressure for at least two years. More than 200 people arrested. It's very possible if this was ETA, it reflects a change in the leadership and a change also in the boundaries of what the group is prepared or not do -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sheila MacVicar in London, thank you very much.

Can the fight against terror be won, and if so, how? No doubt that question is on the minds of many people in Spain right now as they stand in the streets to commemorate the loss. A big reason for hope may be found, however, in the Philippines. CNN's Manila bureau chief Maria Ressa explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN MANILA BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): You have seen the pictures, the U.S. military training with other soldiers from around the world. Now hear how these experiences became the basis of a new U.S. strategy for dealing with the global war on terror. It started in the Philippines.

LT. COL. DAVID MAXWELL, U.S. SPECIAL FORCES COMDR.: We took an approach that with our Philippine counterparts and approached this as a counterinsurgency rather than, in the popular term, combating terrorism.

RESSA: A Senior Special Forces Commander Colonel Maxwell spent more than six months in the southern Philippines in 2002. While there his troops brought down significantly the numbers of the al Qaeda- linked group the Abu Sayyaf. The key, he said, was separating the terrorists from the people and stopping the spread of the ideology of radical Islam.

MAXWELL: What we tried to do was to help legitimize the Philippine government, Philippine military, which they did, and to win over the people. And the people really decided they did not want the terrorist threat on the island.

RESSA: Maxwell says that experience is a model for dealing with regional conflicts around the world where groups use terrorist tactics to try to topple local governments. Many of these conflicts are used by al Qaeda to franchise terror and win new recruits. So the key idea is to treat the war on terror as a global counterinsurgency.

MAXWELL: That's what we are -- we are looking at worldwide. And then, you know, we can drain the swamp and the terrorists will not have the support that they need to exist.

RESSA: Maxwell says it's a one-two punch against terrorism. On the one hand bolstering tough law enforcement, on the other, winning the hearts and minds of the people.

(on camera): But that, Maxwell adds, requires commitment and political will. The only way to win the war on terror, he says, is to recognize enemy tactics and bring down traditional barriers of distrust between allied nations.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Manila.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: The case of a mother charged with murdering her baby up next by simply refusing to get a C-section. Now have prosecutors gone too far? We'll talk with a medical ethicist, Dr. Art Caplan seen there live.

And later, helping children with learning disabilities. Why? The Tomatis Method is capturing parents' attention. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: President of the United States in the East Room of the White House. There to talk about equality for women, specifically in Iraq. We are monitoring this news event for you and bring you a little excerpt of it in just a little bit.

A Utah woman who just gave birth to a stillborn child is being charged with murder. Her alleged crime? Refusing a C-section that might have saved her baby's life.

Melissa Ann Rowland is accused of denying orders one of them could die without the procedure. She reportedly told the nurse she didn't want a C-section because she didn't want to be cut. Rowland now disputes that statement.

Either way, her case raises questions about her rights versus the rights of her child. I'm joined now by Art Caplan, chairman of the Bioethics Department at the University of Pennsylvania. Professor Caplan, good to have you with us.

DR. ART CAPLAN, CHMN., BIOETHICS DEPT., UNIV. OF PENNSYLVANIA: Thanks for having me.

O'BRIEN: Let's start with the perspective of the mother in this case. First of all, does it matter what her reasons are for not having the surgery, do you think?

CAPLAN: Surprisingly to say it doesn't really matter. We have established long ago, really since the 1950s, that anybody can refuse medical treatment on any grounds, as long as they understand the facts, as long as they understand the consequences.

So if I'm a Jehovah's and I don't want blood and I orphan ten children by dying, I have the right to do that. And we have other cases where people have tried to order C-sections and women have said they fear it, they don't want it, they don't go along with Western medicine. Very tough to force somebody to undergo any medical treatment if they're competent and understand what's going on.

O'BRIEN: So whether it's a firmly held religious belief or just purely vanity, doesn't really matter from an ethical point of view. It's your body, and you have a choice over your body, right?

CAPLAN: Exactly. We have people in our emergency room who say I don't want my leg amputated. I don't care if I have diabetes and my leg in gangrenous and I'm going to die. I don't want that. And they go home and some of them do die.

O'BRIEN: So where this gets a little more complicated though is where those rights interfere with the rights of an unborn child. How do you draw that line?

CAPLAN: Well, it's clear that for many Americans an unborn child is going to be considered as a person, they want to see the rights of that child squared off against those of the mother. Remember, though, we don't have a case where the mother said I want to hurt or kill my child. She just said I don't want to have Caesarean section. So from the point of view of the interests of those children, maybe nothing medicine could have done would have saved one of those stillborn babies. Maybe it was too late. We don't know.

Certainly we want mothers to be responsible and do the right thing by their kids. We want them to not smoke and not take drugs and not drink during pregnancy. We want them to get the care that their kids need. It's the right thing to do.

But from a legal point of view, it's tough to make people do that.

O'BRIEN: All right, if we could turn this one around for just a moment, the accusation is her inaction led to the death of her child, and thus murder. If, for example, she had told the doctor go ahead, do the C-section, the child was still stillborn, if you follow that logic, he should be charged for murder, correct?

CAPLAN: Well I think so. And I think that's why this case isn't going to get far. She just doesn't have an intent to kill the child. She just says I don't want this surgery done for whatever reason on me.

So they're not going to be able to prove that she wanted her child dead, they not going to be able to prove the child wasn't dead by the time they proposed a C-section and they can't prove either that the C-section would have saved the baby.

This is a tough one to win in court just on the grounds that she brought about the death of this baby by her inaction. Very tough to prove that.

O'BRIEN: Let's assume for a moment though that there was some sort of autopsy conclusion which made it very clear cut that the absence of a C-section -- and I'm not saying this is possible, but let's go down a hypothetical road for a moment -- how much does that change things in your mind?

CAPLAN: For me it wouldn't. I still believe you've got to respect a person's right to say no to medical treatment regardless of the consequences for others.

If you breach that principle, we're going to having prosecutors come in and say if a woman jaywalks and gets hit by a car, if she's pregnant, she's guilty of harming harm to her baby. If a woman smokes or drinks or doesn't take the right nutrition during pregnancy, the prosecutors are going to be after us.

And anybody who says on religious grounds or for cultural reasons they don't want to go through Western medicine, they're all going to get prosecuted.

It would be quite a can of worms to open this up and say if you don't do the right thing for your baby, we're going to take you on murder charges.

O'BRIEN: Do you remember not too long ago we were talking about a case also in Utah, coincidently. The case of Parker Jenson, a 12- year-old boy, cancer patient. The family was trying to block efforts to give him chemotherapy.

I never got a sense as to what their rationale was. But I guess that really doesn't matter.

In that case too prosecutors tried to force the issue. Is that a different case because in this sense we're not asking the mother to take the chemotherapy along with the child.

CAPLAN: Miles, that's a great case because comparing the two the state does have an interest in stepping in and protecting the interests of the child once it's outside the mother's body, if you will.

So when people are born and they're running around, we have lots of precedent that says the state can come in and compel proven medical treatment that's known to be effective, regardless of what the parents want to say. The parents don't have to take it, but the kid does.

In the case of the C-section, it's not clear that the treatment would be effective. And more to the point, you have to go through the mother's body to get at the fetus. And we haven't been willing to say you can force anybody to undergo a procedure they don't want even if that baby, so to speak, is inside the mother's body.

So that's the difference there.

O'BRIEN: Art Caplan, you did a good job clearing up a lot of things in my mind. Thanks for drawing some lines in this murky case at best.

CAPLAN: Thanks for having me.

O'BRIEN: Art Caplan is a bioethicist with the University of Pennsylvania. Thanks again for being with us today.

An audio training program known as the Tomatis Method has caught the attention of many parents with kids who have learning disabilities. There aren't any studies it's efficiency. But Dr. Sanjay Gupta introduces us to a family who says it has helped.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Concentration doesn't come easy to many 12-year-old boys, but for twins, Teddy and Alex Gilmartin, it was just a bit harder. They were diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in kindergarten.

TEDDY GILMARTIN, DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD: It always took me until 9:00, when I started at 7:00 to do my homework. And that's not because I get lots of homework. That's because I used to have a lot more trouble concentrating on it. ALEX GILMARTIN, DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD: Attention and focusing is a whole lot better.

GUPTA: Their parents tried everything, speech therapy, reading therapy, summer programs, special school and medications to help them along. Last summer they tried the Tomatis method.

STACEY GILMARTIN, MOTHER OF TWINS WITH ADHD: It was more successful than other methods, and was probably more radical.

DORINNE DAVIS-KALUGIN, AUDIOLOGIST, DAVIS CENTER: When you have the ability to understand what's coming in better you are going to be better, you are going to be able to adapt to what's going on around you.

GUPTA: Tomatis attempts to teach listening by learning how to filter out all the irrelevant information that overwhelms people with ADHD. This is done by training the brain to ignore certain auditory stimuli. Here's how it works. Through the use of special filters, sounds of Mozart music and Gregorian chants, along with their own voice, enter the child's ear through the ear canal. Sound hits the eardrum, enters the cochlea, and into the brain. Over time the theory is the child adjusts their listening to filter out irrelevant information, allowing them to pay attention more effectively.

Fifteen-year-old David Sportelli has been using Tomatis for two years.

DAVID SPORTELLI, USING TOMATIS METHOD: It helps you, like, kind of bring everything together, and, like, do things for yourself and help calm down a little bit.

GUPTA: But it isn't cheap -- $2,800 for a 15-day session. Many patients require a second session and boosters, costing over $1,600.

The Gilmartin's aren't sure if it was Tomatis alone, or the culmination of years of different therapies.

COURTNEY GILMARTIN, SISTER OF TWINS WITH ADHD: They definitely didn't change from being ADH boys to, like, turning perfectly normal, but you could see different changes.

GUPTA: Changes for the better, the Gilmartin's say.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MARKET UPDATE)

O'BRIEN: Families in Spain are on a desperate search for missing relatives after yesterday's bomb attacks. We'll have the latest from Madrid at the top of the hour. You could gamble your money in Vegas or invest it in the casino's stock. That would be a much better bet. Which is more likely to make you rich? We'll have some answers for you.

And how to dress like a star. "Sex and the City" clothes are on sale. We'll tell you about it when CNN's LIVE FROM... continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips off today. Here's what's all new this half hour.

New tactics in the war on terror. Lessons America is learning from fighting the battle in the Philippines.

And if you know a child with attention deficit disorder, a story you will not want to miss. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has a word of new approach to treating the problem.

But first, the top stories that we're following for you.

In Spain, a massive solidarity rally in the wake of yesterday's horrific train attacks in Madrid. Braving rain and cold, huge crowds came together today to display national sorrow. Live picture there's now. Nearly 200 were killed, another 1,400 wounded in those attacks.

California's highest court putting the brakes on same sex weddings in San Francisco, at least for now. The court wants time to decide whether the unions are legal. More than 4,000 same-sex couples have tied the knot in San Francisco since February 12.

Martha Stewart is negotiating terms for her departure from the board of the company she founded. A source close to the talks says Stewart might retain some sort of creative role in Martha Stewart Living OmniMedia.

Well, as we've been reporting, Spaniards tonight are responding to a historic act of terror with a breathtaking display of solidarity. Investigators are looking beyond the separatist terror group they'd publicly accused from the outset.>


Aired March 12, 2004 - 14:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips off today. Here's what's all new this half hour.
New tactics in the war on terror. Lessons America is learning from fighting the battle in the Philippines.

And if you know a child with attention deficit disorder, a story you will not want to miss. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has a word of new approach to treating the problem.

But first, the top stories that we're following for you.

In Spain, a massive solidarity rally in the wake of yesterday's horrific train attacks in Madrid. Braving rain and cold, huge crowds came together today to display national sorrow. Live picture there's now. Nearly 200 were killed, another 1,400 wounded in those attacks.

California's highest court putting the brakes on same sex weddings in San Francisco, at least for now. The court wants time to decide whether the unions are legal. More than 4,000 same-sex couples have tied the knot in San Francisco since February 12.

Martha Stewart is negotiating terms for her departure from the board of the company she founded. A source close to the talks says Stewart might retain some sort of creative role in Martha Stewart Living OmniMedia.

Well, as we've been reporting, Spaniards tonight are responding to a historic act of terror with a breathtaking display of solidarity. Investigators are looking beyond the separatist terror group they'd publicly accused from the outset. CNN's Sheila MacVicar joining us from London with the latest -- Sheila.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, a rather confused picture of the investigation tonight. We have two claims -- or rather denials of responsibility from that Spanish separatist group, a group which has sought to achieve political means through terrorist acts since the late 1950s.

Now, someone claiming to represent that group, ETA, has called two Basque news media outlets and said that ETA denies all responsibility. Now, that denial of responsibility came just minutes after Spain's interior minister finished a news conference at which he said that will ETA remained the government's No. 1 suspect. The Interior Ministry tonight following that news conference and its denial of responsibility on the part of ETA, sort of saying they had no comment, that the investigation was continuing.

The evidence itself coming from the investigation is presenting a confused picture. Things -- there are some things which point towards ETA. There are other things which point more in the direction of Islamists perhaps even al Qaeda-related terror, Miles.

It will be some time before investigators are able to say with certainty precisely who was responsible. And of course, seeing those crowds out there on those streets of Madrid and other Spanish cities, you could understand perhaps why a group like ETA, if indeed it was responsible, would choose to deny that responsibility -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sheila, let's talk just for a moment about what is the typical pattern in an ETA attack. Over the past 30 years, there have been hundreds of them. And how this one is really a departure in many ways.

MACVICAR: Well, that's precisely the reason why the question of the possible involvement of an Islamist faction or an Islamist group has come up in this.

ETA has over the course of the 30 years where it's been an active terror organization obviously developed a profile. It very frequently issues warnings in advance. It very rarely indiscriminately targets civilians.

The last time something like that happened was in 1987. They blew up a supermarket in Barcelona killing 21. ETA admitted responsibility and apologized for the mistake. It almost always issues a claim of responsibility when, in fact, it has carried out an action.

So you have a number of things which just don't fit the profile of what happened yesterday. This massive bombing of 13 at least, possibly 14 different bombs all exploding almost simultaneously, targeting indiscriminately civilians. And that is one of the reasons, the very key reasons, the difference in the modus operandi, why people are looking elsewhere and suggesting that it could in fact be Islamists.

If it was ETA, this change, this dramatic shift in targets and tactics would suggest that something pretty dramatic has happened inside that group. The group's been under a lot of pressure for at least two years. More than 200 people arrested. It's very possible if this was ETA, it reflects a change in the leadership and a change also in the boundaries of what the group is prepared or not do -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sheila MacVicar in London, thank you very much.

Can the fight against terror be won, and if so, how? No doubt that question is on the minds of many people in Spain right now as they stand in the streets to commemorate the loss. A big reason for hope may be found, however, in the Philippines. CNN's Manila bureau chief Maria Ressa explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN MANILA BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): You have seen the pictures, the U.S. military training with other soldiers from around the world. Now hear how these experiences became the basis of a new U.S. strategy for dealing with the global war on terror. It started in the Philippines.

LT. COL. DAVID MAXWELL, U.S. SPECIAL FORCES COMDR.: We took an approach that with our Philippine counterparts and approached this as a counterinsurgency rather than, in the popular term, combating terrorism.

RESSA: A Senior Special Forces Commander Colonel Maxwell spent more than six months in the southern Philippines in 2002. While there his troops brought down significantly the numbers of the al Qaeda- linked group the Abu Sayyaf. The key, he said, was separating the terrorists from the people and stopping the spread of the ideology of radical Islam.

MAXWELL: What we tried to do was to help legitimize the Philippine government, Philippine military, which they did, and to win over the people. And the people really decided they did not want the terrorist threat on the island.

RESSA: Maxwell says that experience is a model for dealing with regional conflicts around the world where groups use terrorist tactics to try to topple local governments. Many of these conflicts are used by al Qaeda to franchise terror and win new recruits. So the key idea is to treat the war on terror as a global counterinsurgency.

MAXWELL: That's what we are -- we are looking at worldwide. And then, you know, we can drain the swamp and the terrorists will not have the support that they need to exist.

RESSA: Maxwell says it's a one-two punch against terrorism. On the one hand bolstering tough law enforcement, on the other, winning the hearts and minds of the people.

(on camera): But that, Maxwell adds, requires commitment and political will. The only way to win the war on terror, he says, is to recognize enemy tactics and bring down traditional barriers of distrust between allied nations.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Manila.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: The case of a mother charged with murdering her baby up next by simply refusing to get a C-section. Now have prosecutors gone too far? We'll talk with a medical ethicist, Dr. Art Caplan seen there live.

And later, helping children with learning disabilities. Why? The Tomatis Method is capturing parents' attention. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: President of the United States in the East Room of the White House. There to talk about equality for women, specifically in Iraq. We are monitoring this news event for you and bring you a little excerpt of it in just a little bit.

A Utah woman who just gave birth to a stillborn child is being charged with murder. Her alleged crime? Refusing a C-section that might have saved her baby's life.

Melissa Ann Rowland is accused of denying orders one of them could die without the procedure. She reportedly told the nurse she didn't want a C-section because she didn't want to be cut. Rowland now disputes that statement.

Either way, her case raises questions about her rights versus the rights of her child. I'm joined now by Art Caplan, chairman of the Bioethics Department at the University of Pennsylvania. Professor Caplan, good to have you with us.

DR. ART CAPLAN, CHMN., BIOETHICS DEPT., UNIV. OF PENNSYLVANIA: Thanks for having me.

O'BRIEN: Let's start with the perspective of the mother in this case. First of all, does it matter what her reasons are for not having the surgery, do you think?

CAPLAN: Surprisingly to say it doesn't really matter. We have established long ago, really since the 1950s, that anybody can refuse medical treatment on any grounds, as long as they understand the facts, as long as they understand the consequences.

So if I'm a Jehovah's and I don't want blood and I orphan ten children by dying, I have the right to do that. And we have other cases where people have tried to order C-sections and women have said they fear it, they don't want it, they don't go along with Western medicine. Very tough to force somebody to undergo any medical treatment if they're competent and understand what's going on.

O'BRIEN: So whether it's a firmly held religious belief or just purely vanity, doesn't really matter from an ethical point of view. It's your body, and you have a choice over your body, right?

CAPLAN: Exactly. We have people in our emergency room who say I don't want my leg amputated. I don't care if I have diabetes and my leg in gangrenous and I'm going to die. I don't want that. And they go home and some of them do die.

O'BRIEN: So where this gets a little more complicated though is where those rights interfere with the rights of an unborn child. How do you draw that line?

CAPLAN: Well, it's clear that for many Americans an unborn child is going to be considered as a person, they want to see the rights of that child squared off against those of the mother. Remember, though, we don't have a case where the mother said I want to hurt or kill my child. She just said I don't want to have Caesarean section. So from the point of view of the interests of those children, maybe nothing medicine could have done would have saved one of those stillborn babies. Maybe it was too late. We don't know.

Certainly we want mothers to be responsible and do the right thing by their kids. We want them to not smoke and not take drugs and not drink during pregnancy. We want them to get the care that their kids need. It's the right thing to do.

But from a legal point of view, it's tough to make people do that.

O'BRIEN: All right, if we could turn this one around for just a moment, the accusation is her inaction led to the death of her child, and thus murder. If, for example, she had told the doctor go ahead, do the C-section, the child was still stillborn, if you follow that logic, he should be charged for murder, correct?

CAPLAN: Well I think so. And I think that's why this case isn't going to get far. She just doesn't have an intent to kill the child. She just says I don't want this surgery done for whatever reason on me.

So they're not going to be able to prove that she wanted her child dead, they not going to be able to prove the child wasn't dead by the time they proposed a C-section and they can't prove either that the C-section would have saved the baby.

This is a tough one to win in court just on the grounds that she brought about the death of this baby by her inaction. Very tough to prove that.

O'BRIEN: Let's assume for a moment though that there was some sort of autopsy conclusion which made it very clear cut that the absence of a C-section -- and I'm not saying this is possible, but let's go down a hypothetical road for a moment -- how much does that change things in your mind?

CAPLAN: For me it wouldn't. I still believe you've got to respect a person's right to say no to medical treatment regardless of the consequences for others.

If you breach that principle, we're going to having prosecutors come in and say if a woman jaywalks and gets hit by a car, if she's pregnant, she's guilty of harming harm to her baby. If a woman smokes or drinks or doesn't take the right nutrition during pregnancy, the prosecutors are going to be after us.

And anybody who says on religious grounds or for cultural reasons they don't want to go through Western medicine, they're all going to get prosecuted.

It would be quite a can of worms to open this up and say if you don't do the right thing for your baby, we're going to take you on murder charges.

O'BRIEN: Do you remember not too long ago we were talking about a case also in Utah, coincidently. The case of Parker Jenson, a 12- year-old boy, cancer patient. The family was trying to block efforts to give him chemotherapy.

I never got a sense as to what their rationale was. But I guess that really doesn't matter.

In that case too prosecutors tried to force the issue. Is that a different case because in this sense we're not asking the mother to take the chemotherapy along with the child.

CAPLAN: Miles, that's a great case because comparing the two the state does have an interest in stepping in and protecting the interests of the child once it's outside the mother's body, if you will.

So when people are born and they're running around, we have lots of precedent that says the state can come in and compel proven medical treatment that's known to be effective, regardless of what the parents want to say. The parents don't have to take it, but the kid does.

In the case of the C-section, it's not clear that the treatment would be effective. And more to the point, you have to go through the mother's body to get at the fetus. And we haven't been willing to say you can force anybody to undergo a procedure they don't want even if that baby, so to speak, is inside the mother's body.

So that's the difference there.

O'BRIEN: Art Caplan, you did a good job clearing up a lot of things in my mind. Thanks for drawing some lines in this murky case at best.

CAPLAN: Thanks for having me.

O'BRIEN: Art Caplan is a bioethicist with the University of Pennsylvania. Thanks again for being with us today.

An audio training program known as the Tomatis Method has caught the attention of many parents with kids who have learning disabilities. There aren't any studies it's efficiency. But Dr. Sanjay Gupta introduces us to a family who says it has helped.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Concentration doesn't come easy to many 12-year-old boys, but for twins, Teddy and Alex Gilmartin, it was just a bit harder. They were diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in kindergarten.

TEDDY GILMARTIN, DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD: It always took me until 9:00, when I started at 7:00 to do my homework. And that's not because I get lots of homework. That's because I used to have a lot more trouble concentrating on it. ALEX GILMARTIN, DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD: Attention and focusing is a whole lot better.

GUPTA: Their parents tried everything, speech therapy, reading therapy, summer programs, special school and medications to help them along. Last summer they tried the Tomatis method.

STACEY GILMARTIN, MOTHER OF TWINS WITH ADHD: It was more successful than other methods, and was probably more radical.

DORINNE DAVIS-KALUGIN, AUDIOLOGIST, DAVIS CENTER: When you have the ability to understand what's coming in better you are going to be better, you are going to be able to adapt to what's going on around you.

GUPTA: Tomatis attempts to teach listening by learning how to filter out all the irrelevant information that overwhelms people with ADHD. This is done by training the brain to ignore certain auditory stimuli. Here's how it works. Through the use of special filters, sounds of Mozart music and Gregorian chants, along with their own voice, enter the child's ear through the ear canal. Sound hits the eardrum, enters the cochlea, and into the brain. Over time the theory is the child adjusts their listening to filter out irrelevant information, allowing them to pay attention more effectively.

Fifteen-year-old David Sportelli has been using Tomatis for two years.

DAVID SPORTELLI, USING TOMATIS METHOD: It helps you, like, kind of bring everything together, and, like, do things for yourself and help calm down a little bit.

GUPTA: But it isn't cheap -- $2,800 for a 15-day session. Many patients require a second session and boosters, costing over $1,600.

The Gilmartin's aren't sure if it was Tomatis alone, or the culmination of years of different therapies.

COURTNEY GILMARTIN, SISTER OF TWINS WITH ADHD: They definitely didn't change from being ADH boys to, like, turning perfectly normal, but you could see different changes.

GUPTA: Changes for the better, the Gilmartin's say.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM... I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips off today. Here's what's all new this half hour.

New tactics in the war on terror. Lessons America is learning from fighting the battle in the Philippines.

And if you know a child with attention deficit disorder, a story you will not want to miss. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has a word of new approach to treating the problem.

But first, the top stories that we're following for you.

In Spain, a massive solidarity rally in the wake of yesterday's horrific train attacks in Madrid. Braving rain and cold, huge crowds came together today to display national sorrow. Live picture there's now. Nearly 200 were killed, another 1,400 wounded in those attacks.

California's highest court putting the brakes on same sex weddings in San Francisco, at least for now. The court wants time to decide whether the unions are legal. More than 4,000 same-sex couples have tied the knot in San Francisco since February 12.

Martha Stewart is negotiating terms for her departure from the board of the company she founded. A source close to the talks says Stewart might retain some sort of creative role in Martha Stewart Living OmniMedia.

Well, as we've been reporting, Spaniards tonight are responding to a historic act of terror with a breathtaking display of solidarity. Investigators are looking beyond the separatist terror group they'd publicly accused from the outset.>