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Millions Rally in Memory of Madrid Bombing Victims; Investigators Looking for Those Behind the Blast; Bush Campaign Ads Turn Negative; Mother Charged with Murder for Nixing C-Section
Aired March 12, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, ANCHOR: I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips taking a doughnut break today. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
It is 7 p.m. in Madrid, 19 minutes from sunset on the first official day of mourning after those catastrophic bombings on the rails.
Spaniards by the million are due to turn out tonight at the government's invitation for rallies in support of civilized democracy and against the treachery of terror.
The toll stand at 198 killed, 1,400 wounded in yesterday's attacks. And officials who were certain was to blame now say all lines of investigation are open.
Our coverage begins this hour with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who is in the Spanish capital.
Christiane -- And you can see the scene there. The pictures there, dramatic, as rainy Madrid stops to remember the terrorist bombings. This has become the tradition in Spain, as Basque separatists have engaged in their campaign, but nothing quite like this, on this scale.
Christiane Amanpour joining us now amid the throng.
Christiane, what is the latest?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, we are now in really a corner that's become sort of overrun by many, many of these people who have turned out in response to the calls by the government to confront terrorism and to show sympathy and solidarity with the victims.
What we're seeing here is people, in fact, walking towards the starting point and then, at least in this location, they will start moving in about half an hour from now, from the main square, a little bit up from where I am, and all the way down the main road towards the site of one of the worst explosions yesterday. So that's what's happening here.
Now, there are also -- really, it's a war of claims and blame and counterclaims going on right now. In the last few moments, we have heard from Basque television in the autonomous region, that is essentially run by the Basque authorities over there. We've heard that a call has been received to the newsroom, an anonymous call, by someone claiming to talk for ETA, the terrorist organization that has been blamed by the government for yesterday's attacks. This caller denied all responsibility for yesterday's attacks.
And, in fact, we understand that similar calls have been made to other media in the Basque region. They appear to be trying to get that word of denial out to as many of the Basque media outlets as they can.
But, at the same time, just before that announcement was made to CNN, by Basque television, just before that, the interior minister, the Spanish interior minister, gave another briefing, in which he said that ETA remains their prime suspect.
This is a little of what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGEL ACEBES, SPANISH INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We are working on all of that with intensity, and we are in constant touch with intelligence services.
But -- up until now, none of them has warned us that they have information that will point to a different line from ETA. None of the services of the security forces that we have contacted has given us any indication in this -- at this moment that it could be an Islamic terrorist group.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So this is a moment of deep sort of soul-searching here. People really want to know who was responsible.
On the other hand, they say whoever it was -- ETA, or al Qaeda, any other group -- they are just pure killers and that people have come out, as you can see already, lots and lots of people in defiance of what happened here yesterday -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, how are the authorities able to verify these calls one way or another? And as part of that, if you could explain, in the past, ETA has frequently warned in advance of attacks, has it not?
AMANPOUR: Yes, now, yesterday the interior minister addressed the issue of warnings. It is true, apparently, that in most cases ETA has warned ahead of these attacks.
But the interior minister says that in some occasions, in some instances, it has not warned.
In terms of how does one verify the calls, well, that's difficult for us. But it's generally been taken as of modus operandi of the way ETA does operate that it has, in the past, called in to these Basque news outlets and media outlets and actually claimed responsibility for the attacks that have taken place.
So people do think that this newspaper that got the call today, plus the television station that got the call, that this is consistent with ETA's sort of post-attack modus operandi in the past, that they do usually call.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Madrid, thank you very much.
Timing may not be everything, but U.S. officials do tell CNN the synchronicity of yesterday's attacks suggests the Basque group ETA may not be responsible or may have had help if, in fact, it was.
Now officials point out ETA typically issues warnings and claims responsibility, as Christiane was just mentioning, but not always. And, of course, neither of which came yesterday.
We do have now a call indicating they were not responsible. A lot of thing to consider there. In fact, there are reports of outright ETA denials, one which we just heard.
We get the latest on the investigation from CNN's Sheila MacVicar in London, who's trying to sort this all this out for us -- Sheila.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, indeed, there's a lot of contradictory information, a lot of contradictory evidence, it seems, out there.
As Christiane has just been saying, two calls that we are aware of to Basque news outlets, something that ETA has done in the past, denying all responsibility for what happened yesterday.
At the same time, just a few minutes before those calls became public knowledge, the interior minister saying again that it was his view and the view of the investigators, that ETA remained main focus of the investigation and the primary track.
That's the Spanish government's argument towards ETA, if you will. We do know that one of the most important pieces of evidence that the Spanish police are examining tonight is a backpack found to contain explosives, a detonator, and a mobile telephone, apparently to be used as a timing device, if you will.
That did not explode yesterday morning. And initially, the backpack was taken off to lost luggage several hours later when they were going through things, looking for additional evidence.
Now the police are taking that device apart, looking at it, trying to see what they can learn about the makers of the bomb, see if there are any connections to ETA.
One thing we are being told is the detonator discovered there, Miles, is not of a type normally associated with ETA.
So lots of contradictions. Again, we've talked a lot about how -- the ways in which yesterday's attacks were so different from what ETA has done before, both in magnitude, the kind of targeting, the indiscriminate targeting of large numbers of civilians, the failure to warn, and of course now today we have this denial.
A lot of confusion, still, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. CNN's Sheila MacVicar, lots to sort out there, thank you very much.
Well, if you can't say something nice about someone, you may have a future in politics. With almost eight months to go before Americans vote for president, attack ads are already hitting the airwaves.
CNN's Kathleen Koch has some cases in point to share with us.
Hello, Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, these are new ads coming out from the Bush campaign. They start running today in 16 to 18 key battleground states around the country.
And if you'll recall, it was just last week that President Bush's first campaign ads were released. They were positive, focusing on the president's leadership.
And though they were controversial, in their use of 9/11 imagery, they never mentioned John Kerry by name. Well, the new ad changed all that.
We -- I'll give you just a slice from one of them. This is the most pointed of the president's new ads, and it does not pull any punches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm George W. Bush, and I approved this message.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A president sets his agenda for America in the first 100 days. John Kerry's plan: to pay for new government spending, raise taxes by at least $900 billion.
On the war on terror, weaken the Patriot Act used to arrest terrorists and protect America. And he wanted to delay defending America until the United Nations approved.
John Kerry: wrong on taxes, wrong on defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: It should come as no surprise that the Kerry campaign denies the charges in the Bush ad, saying that first of all, while the senator has proposed a tax hike for the wealthiest American, he plans to find other ways to cover the cost of a new health care plan that he's proposed.
Regarding the Patriot Act, the Kerry campaign says yes, he does want to replace it, but with a different version, one that would protect both Americans and their civil liberties.
And then when it comes to Iraq and the United Nations, the Kerry campaign says that the senator never said that the United States needed the U.N.'s approval, only that the president should have gone to the U.N. first to form a coalition and build consent before invading Iraq.
Now Senator Kerry, we are told, is planning on fighting back, putting together a series of response ads that accuse the president of misleading America and running negative ads.
Now the Bush campaign response to that, saying, "Well, the senator himself has already run more than a dozen negative ads."
Now all this, Miles, as you pointed out, some eight months before voters go to the polls. It's going to be an interesting and a long year.
O'BRIEN: I guess it won't be long, though, before we'll see negative ads about how the other guy's putting out negative ads. Which I guess two negatives, that makes a positive, doesn't it?
KOCH: And so on and so on. I think so.
O'BRIEN: Kathleen Koch, at the White House, thank you very much.
Well, is it a woman's choice or is it murder? A Utah mom charged after she allegedly refuses a C-section and one of her twins is stillborn. We'll debate that straight ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EVA SCRIVO, FRIEND OF MARTHA STEWART: Martha is a very stoic, strong human being who's went through a tremendous amount of adversity to build an empire of this size. So I think that she...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: So what's going through Martha Stewart's mind anyhow? A friend who was with her every day of the trial, speaks out.
And pulling no punches -- ouch. The political fight that looks more like a barroom brawl. We'll explain.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: In Utah, a mother faces a murder charge for allegedly refusing to have a C-section. One of her twin babies was stillborn.
Sandy Reesgraph with CNN affiliate KSTU in Salt Lake City has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MELISSA ANN ROWLAND, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I'm pretty good. I don't feel that I did anything wrong.
SANDY REESGRAPH, KSTU CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Melissa Ann Rowland can't believe she's being charged with murder. By phone from jail, she denied doing anything to harm her twins.
But could she have saved the one who died by having a C-section two days before she gave birth?
ROWLAND: I don't have any comment on that right now.
REESGRAPH: Prosecutor Kent Morgan says his office has never filed murder charges in a case like this. But, he says, Melissa Rowland knew one baby could die if she didn't have a C-section.
Morgan says she also ignored other vital medical pre-natal care.
KENT MORGAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Doctor after doctor, hospital after hospital, nurse after nurse, told her this is the only way you're going to save this child. This is what you have to do.
REESGRAPH: The charging document says Rowland told one doctor a C-section would, quote, "ruin her life," that she would rather "lose one of the babies than be cut like that."
Did she say it?
ROWLAND: No, I did not. I deny that.
MORGAN: What is happening here is balancing the procedure necessary to save the life that she alone could do, against her interest in vanity. She allowed vanity to win out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Thanks to Sandy Reesgraph and KSTU for that report.
Rowland remain on jail on $250,000 bail.
Now, for more on the legal and ethical tangle sparked by this case, and it is quite a tangle, former federal prosecutor Pamela Hayes joining us from our New York bureau. And in Washington, attorney Jack Burkman is our guest.
Good to have you both with us.
JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Miles, nice to see you.
O'BRIEN: All right. Jack, let's begin with you. Is this a murder case or is this just a terrible personal tragedy?
BURKMAN: It's a tragedy, but it's also a murder case. And the prosecutor was very right to bring this charge.
You have to remember, the state has an interest in safeguarding life and in safeguarding child welfare. And when you have a situation where the mother, for all the evidence suggests, no more than cosmetic damage to herself, would not help the child, would not save the child, is absurd.
The thing you have to remember, Miles, when you look at a case like this, she was advised by doctors. She was advised by nurses. When you have a -- when a woman enters into pregnancy, she takes on, whether she likes it or not, duties and obligations to that child and fetus.
And you know, this is particularly egregious. You could get into the abortion debate. This is in the ninth month. This is at the end. It would have been very, very easy to save the life of a child. A person like that has no business having children.
O'BRIEN: All right. Pam?
PAMELA HAYES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's totally remarkable that your guest would have that particular opinion, when you have to consider that the first rule a doctor has to follow when he has patients with -- lives are in danger, it's up to him or her to do whatever it is in their provenance to do something about it.
In this instance, the hospital had the authority to save the life of that children -- child if they thought it was in distress or if they were in jeopardy.
Here, the hospital, rather than take on some type of civil liability...
BURKMAN: But...
HAYES: ... allowed, you know that child...
BURKMAN: But it's her choice, it's the mother's choice.
HAYES: No, no, no, no, it's not the mother's right...
BURKMAN: It's her choice. The doctors don't make that decision...
HAYES: Yes, the doctor does...
BURKMAN: But somebody can't force that.
HAYES: If somebody comes into the hospital and they're dying, the doctor cannot...
BURKMAN: The doctor cannot force the C-sections on the mother.
HAYES: ... to make a decision to do whatever he or she has to do to save the child. And that didn't happen in this instance.
O'BRIEN: Jack, let me ask this one question, though. Does it matter what the woman's motivation for not having the surgery were? What if she said, "For religious reasons, I don't want to have surgery"? Would that be different?
BURKMAN: I think it's -- You ask a good question. I think it would be just as egregious. I think the motives matter somewhat. I mean, think they're worse in this case.
But you have to remember that this woman had a choice. Pam is casting this as though the hospital foisted this choice on her. That doesn't happen. Her doctors asked her. I mean, Pam has misstated the facts of this case.
HAYES: But they have an obligation to do something...
BURKMAN: It's not an issue of trying to camouflage liability...
O'BRIEN: Wait a minute, Pam, why was it their obligation to do something?
HAYES: Because if they saw a situation and it was a medical emergency, that would in fact put someone's life in jeopardy, they had the obligation to give her the C-section and save the child.
O'BRIEN: What happens if they did just that and the child was still stillborn? Then what? Do they face murder charges? If you follow this logic of this case...
HAYES: Who would file murder? What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
O'BRIEN: Well, if you're saying the woman refuses the C-section, the child is stillborn, she faces murder charges. If she says, "Yes, I'll have the C-section" and the child is still stillborn, isn't the doctor subject to the same...
BURKMAN: No, Miles. The answer is it goes to causation...
HAYES: Stillbirth does not come from this type of injury. The first thing you've got to find out is what was the cause of the baby's death?
O'BRIEN: Hello, yes, of course.
HAYES: No, no, and the second thing you have to find out is...
BURKMAN: Pam, let me ask a simple question...
HAYES: ... attributed to her. Who said she made it? What about privacy rights here?
BURKMAN: Let me ask a simple question. Let me ask a simply question.
O'BRIEN: Go ahead.
BURKMAN: Did this woman -- did this woman have a choice or did she not? You're alleging that the hospital foisted this on her. HAYES: I don't know. I don't know. The doctor said -- I don't know what the doctor said. You're assuming and making all these assertion. You've got to know what was told to the person.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this...
HAYES: ... if they said, you can have a C-section and maybe the kid would be OK, that's different than charging someone with an intentional act.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this. Where do the rights of a woman end, and where do the rights of a fetus begin, in the eyes of the law?
HAYES: I don't know. Well, I know you can only charge a live person with murder. I don't know what the code is in Utah. But I do know that a doctor can just not say, "Oh, just because, you know, she didn't want to have a C-section"...
BURKMAN: Miles, I...
HAYES: ... this is why you had a stillbirth. That is ludicrous.
BURKMAN: You wonder why when you look at a society where there's all of this neglect of children, we have all of this abuse of children. And you wonder...
HAYES: We're not talking about that here.
BURKMAN: ... if you start with something like this -- This reflects, but it reflects a broader trend in the society, and that is a callous, not caring about children. I mean, when you have a woman who...
HAYES: That's insane.
BURKMAN: The state has to send a signal. State law has to send a signal, that when you have a woman who would put her own cosmetic well being ahead of the life of the child...
HAYES: Says who? She said she didn't say it, Jack.
BURKMAN: ... not just injury to the child, but the life of the child, a good state, and Utah has a good state legislature, they want to send a signal. And I think that's what this is about.
HAYES: This is not about politics. This is a criminal allegation where someone is on trial for their life, somebody else is dead. Never had an opportunity...
BURKMAN: The child is dead.
HAYES: Yes.
BURKMAN: The child is dead.
HAYES: The fetus -- wasn't born. You can't tell me with absolute certainty...
BURKMAN: It amazes me in these type of things, Pam...
HAYES: It should amaze you, Jack. It should amaze you because the woman said she didn't make that statement. And you're just giving it to her...
BURKMAN: What amazes me is that we've had these kinds of debates before, but you go on and on. And I never hear you mention the child. You talk about the rights of the woman, the liability of the hospital, but never the life of the child.
HAYES: You have to listen carefully.
O'BRIEN: Final time. We've got to go. All right. Pam Hayes, Jack Burkman, thank you very much for joining us.
BURKMAN: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: A lively debate. Obviously didn't settle that one. Thank you very much.
This Utah story also raises all kinds of tricky medical, ethical issues. How far can or should doctors go in a situation like this? Pam was referring to that.
Next hour, we'll talk about it with a medical ethicist.
The brazen abduction of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia stunned a nation. We'll go live to Florida for some legal developments in that case, on the man accused of grabbing her, in a little while.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carrie had this hat in the episode where her and Charlotte are sitting and rating the guys in New York City on who they would sleep with or not. So there you go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: And sex sells. Now you can own the designer duds worn by the "Sex and the City" cast. We're plunking down the plastic a little later on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Live pictures now, Madrid, Spain, is the dateline. This is the end of what is the first full day of national mourning in the wake of that terrible bombing campaign in the rush hour, striking several trains in the Spanish capital, killing upwards of 200 people.
Reports just this hour that the Basque separatist group, which has bedeviled Spain for three decades now, is now denying responsibility for that coordinated attack. Still, many open questions about who might be responsible for the attacks.
Nevertheless, Spain remains in mourning with a deep sense of loss.
The president of the United States, meanwhile, in Washington is with the Spanish ambassador there. He is there to pay respects and lay a wreath. And we will have some picture of that in just a little bit.
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Investigators Looking for Those Behind the Blast; Bush Campaign Ads Turn Negative; Mother Charged with Murder for Nixing C-Section>
Aired March 12, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, ANCHOR: I'm Miles O'Brien. Kyra Phillips taking a doughnut break today. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
It is 7 p.m. in Madrid, 19 minutes from sunset on the first official day of mourning after those catastrophic bombings on the rails.
Spaniards by the million are due to turn out tonight at the government's invitation for rallies in support of civilized democracy and against the treachery of terror.
The toll stand at 198 killed, 1,400 wounded in yesterday's attacks. And officials who were certain was to blame now say all lines of investigation are open.
Our coverage begins this hour with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who is in the Spanish capital.
Christiane -- And you can see the scene there. The pictures there, dramatic, as rainy Madrid stops to remember the terrorist bombings. This has become the tradition in Spain, as Basque separatists have engaged in their campaign, but nothing quite like this, on this scale.
Christiane Amanpour joining us now amid the throng.
Christiane, what is the latest?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, we are now in really a corner that's become sort of overrun by many, many of these people who have turned out in response to the calls by the government to confront terrorism and to show sympathy and solidarity with the victims.
What we're seeing here is people, in fact, walking towards the starting point and then, at least in this location, they will start moving in about half an hour from now, from the main square, a little bit up from where I am, and all the way down the main road towards the site of one of the worst explosions yesterday. So that's what's happening here.
Now, there are also -- really, it's a war of claims and blame and counterclaims going on right now. In the last few moments, we have heard from Basque television in the autonomous region, that is essentially run by the Basque authorities over there. We've heard that a call has been received to the newsroom, an anonymous call, by someone claiming to talk for ETA, the terrorist organization that has been blamed by the government for yesterday's attacks. This caller denied all responsibility for yesterday's attacks.
And, in fact, we understand that similar calls have been made to other media in the Basque region. They appear to be trying to get that word of denial out to as many of the Basque media outlets as they can.
But, at the same time, just before that announcement was made to CNN, by Basque television, just before that, the interior minister, the Spanish interior minister, gave another briefing, in which he said that ETA remains their prime suspect.
This is a little of what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGEL ACEBES, SPANISH INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We are working on all of that with intensity, and we are in constant touch with intelligence services.
But -- up until now, none of them has warned us that they have information that will point to a different line from ETA. None of the services of the security forces that we have contacted has given us any indication in this -- at this moment that it could be an Islamic terrorist group.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So this is a moment of deep sort of soul-searching here. People really want to know who was responsible.
On the other hand, they say whoever it was -- ETA, or al Qaeda, any other group -- they are just pure killers and that people have come out, as you can see already, lots and lots of people in defiance of what happened here yesterday -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, how are the authorities able to verify these calls one way or another? And as part of that, if you could explain, in the past, ETA has frequently warned in advance of attacks, has it not?
AMANPOUR: Yes, now, yesterday the interior minister addressed the issue of warnings. It is true, apparently, that in most cases ETA has warned ahead of these attacks.
But the interior minister says that in some occasions, in some instances, it has not warned.
In terms of how does one verify the calls, well, that's difficult for us. But it's generally been taken as of modus operandi of the way ETA does operate that it has, in the past, called in to these Basque news outlets and media outlets and actually claimed responsibility for the attacks that have taken place.
So people do think that this newspaper that got the call today, plus the television station that got the call, that this is consistent with ETA's sort of post-attack modus operandi in the past, that they do usually call.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Madrid, thank you very much.
Timing may not be everything, but U.S. officials do tell CNN the synchronicity of yesterday's attacks suggests the Basque group ETA may not be responsible or may have had help if, in fact, it was.
Now officials point out ETA typically issues warnings and claims responsibility, as Christiane was just mentioning, but not always. And, of course, neither of which came yesterday.
We do have now a call indicating they were not responsible. A lot of thing to consider there. In fact, there are reports of outright ETA denials, one which we just heard.
We get the latest on the investigation from CNN's Sheila MacVicar in London, who's trying to sort this all this out for us -- Sheila.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, indeed, there's a lot of contradictory information, a lot of contradictory evidence, it seems, out there.
As Christiane has just been saying, two calls that we are aware of to Basque news outlets, something that ETA has done in the past, denying all responsibility for what happened yesterday.
At the same time, just a few minutes before those calls became public knowledge, the interior minister saying again that it was his view and the view of the investigators, that ETA remained main focus of the investigation and the primary track.
That's the Spanish government's argument towards ETA, if you will. We do know that one of the most important pieces of evidence that the Spanish police are examining tonight is a backpack found to contain explosives, a detonator, and a mobile telephone, apparently to be used as a timing device, if you will.
That did not explode yesterday morning. And initially, the backpack was taken off to lost luggage several hours later when they were going through things, looking for additional evidence.
Now the police are taking that device apart, looking at it, trying to see what they can learn about the makers of the bomb, see if there are any connections to ETA.
One thing we are being told is the detonator discovered there, Miles, is not of a type normally associated with ETA.
So lots of contradictions. Again, we've talked a lot about how -- the ways in which yesterday's attacks were so different from what ETA has done before, both in magnitude, the kind of targeting, the indiscriminate targeting of large numbers of civilians, the failure to warn, and of course now today we have this denial.
A lot of confusion, still, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. CNN's Sheila MacVicar, lots to sort out there, thank you very much.
Well, if you can't say something nice about someone, you may have a future in politics. With almost eight months to go before Americans vote for president, attack ads are already hitting the airwaves.
CNN's Kathleen Koch has some cases in point to share with us.
Hello, Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, these are new ads coming out from the Bush campaign. They start running today in 16 to 18 key battleground states around the country.
And if you'll recall, it was just last week that President Bush's first campaign ads were released. They were positive, focusing on the president's leadership.
And though they were controversial, in their use of 9/11 imagery, they never mentioned John Kerry by name. Well, the new ad changed all that.
We -- I'll give you just a slice from one of them. This is the most pointed of the president's new ads, and it does not pull any punches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm George W. Bush, and I approved this message.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A president sets his agenda for America in the first 100 days. John Kerry's plan: to pay for new government spending, raise taxes by at least $900 billion.
On the war on terror, weaken the Patriot Act used to arrest terrorists and protect America. And he wanted to delay defending America until the United Nations approved.
John Kerry: wrong on taxes, wrong on defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: It should come as no surprise that the Kerry campaign denies the charges in the Bush ad, saying that first of all, while the senator has proposed a tax hike for the wealthiest American, he plans to find other ways to cover the cost of a new health care plan that he's proposed.
Regarding the Patriot Act, the Kerry campaign says yes, he does want to replace it, but with a different version, one that would protect both Americans and their civil liberties.
And then when it comes to Iraq and the United Nations, the Kerry campaign says that the senator never said that the United States needed the U.N.'s approval, only that the president should have gone to the U.N. first to form a coalition and build consent before invading Iraq.
Now Senator Kerry, we are told, is planning on fighting back, putting together a series of response ads that accuse the president of misleading America and running negative ads.
Now the Bush campaign response to that, saying, "Well, the senator himself has already run more than a dozen negative ads."
Now all this, Miles, as you pointed out, some eight months before voters go to the polls. It's going to be an interesting and a long year.
O'BRIEN: I guess it won't be long, though, before we'll see negative ads about how the other guy's putting out negative ads. Which I guess two negatives, that makes a positive, doesn't it?
KOCH: And so on and so on. I think so.
O'BRIEN: Kathleen Koch, at the White House, thank you very much.
Well, is it a woman's choice or is it murder? A Utah mom charged after she allegedly refuses a C-section and one of her twins is stillborn. We'll debate that straight ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EVA SCRIVO, FRIEND OF MARTHA STEWART: Martha is a very stoic, strong human being who's went through a tremendous amount of adversity to build an empire of this size. So I think that she...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: So what's going through Martha Stewart's mind anyhow? A friend who was with her every day of the trial, speaks out.
And pulling no punches -- ouch. The political fight that looks more like a barroom brawl. We'll explain.
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O'BRIEN: In Utah, a mother faces a murder charge for allegedly refusing to have a C-section. One of her twin babies was stillborn.
Sandy Reesgraph with CNN affiliate KSTU in Salt Lake City has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MELISSA ANN ROWLAND, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I'm pretty good. I don't feel that I did anything wrong.
SANDY REESGRAPH, KSTU CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Melissa Ann Rowland can't believe she's being charged with murder. By phone from jail, she denied doing anything to harm her twins.
But could she have saved the one who died by having a C-section two days before she gave birth?
ROWLAND: I don't have any comment on that right now.
REESGRAPH: Prosecutor Kent Morgan says his office has never filed murder charges in a case like this. But, he says, Melissa Rowland knew one baby could die if she didn't have a C-section.
Morgan says she also ignored other vital medical pre-natal care.
KENT MORGAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Doctor after doctor, hospital after hospital, nurse after nurse, told her this is the only way you're going to save this child. This is what you have to do.
REESGRAPH: The charging document says Rowland told one doctor a C-section would, quote, "ruin her life," that she would rather "lose one of the babies than be cut like that."
Did she say it?
ROWLAND: No, I did not. I deny that.
MORGAN: What is happening here is balancing the procedure necessary to save the life that she alone could do, against her interest in vanity. She allowed vanity to win out.
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O'BRIEN: Thanks to Sandy Reesgraph and KSTU for that report.
Rowland remain on jail on $250,000 bail.
Now, for more on the legal and ethical tangle sparked by this case, and it is quite a tangle, former federal prosecutor Pamela Hayes joining us from our New York bureau. And in Washington, attorney Jack Burkman is our guest.
Good to have you both with us.
JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Miles, nice to see you.
O'BRIEN: All right. Jack, let's begin with you. Is this a murder case or is this just a terrible personal tragedy?
BURKMAN: It's a tragedy, but it's also a murder case. And the prosecutor was very right to bring this charge.
You have to remember, the state has an interest in safeguarding life and in safeguarding child welfare. And when you have a situation where the mother, for all the evidence suggests, no more than cosmetic damage to herself, would not help the child, would not save the child, is absurd.
The thing you have to remember, Miles, when you look at a case like this, she was advised by doctors. She was advised by nurses. When you have a -- when a woman enters into pregnancy, she takes on, whether she likes it or not, duties and obligations to that child and fetus.
And you know, this is particularly egregious. You could get into the abortion debate. This is in the ninth month. This is at the end. It would have been very, very easy to save the life of a child. A person like that has no business having children.
O'BRIEN: All right. Pam?
PAMELA HAYES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's totally remarkable that your guest would have that particular opinion, when you have to consider that the first rule a doctor has to follow when he has patients with -- lives are in danger, it's up to him or her to do whatever it is in their provenance to do something about it.
In this instance, the hospital had the authority to save the life of that children -- child if they thought it was in distress or if they were in jeopardy.
Here, the hospital, rather than take on some type of civil liability...
BURKMAN: But...
HAYES: ... allowed, you know that child...
BURKMAN: But it's her choice, it's the mother's choice.
HAYES: No, no, no, no, it's not the mother's right...
BURKMAN: It's her choice. The doctors don't make that decision...
HAYES: Yes, the doctor does...
BURKMAN: But somebody can't force that.
HAYES: If somebody comes into the hospital and they're dying, the doctor cannot...
BURKMAN: The doctor cannot force the C-sections on the mother.
HAYES: ... to make a decision to do whatever he or she has to do to save the child. And that didn't happen in this instance.
O'BRIEN: Jack, let me ask this one question, though. Does it matter what the woman's motivation for not having the surgery were? What if she said, "For religious reasons, I don't want to have surgery"? Would that be different?
BURKMAN: I think it's -- You ask a good question. I think it would be just as egregious. I think the motives matter somewhat. I mean, think they're worse in this case.
But you have to remember that this woman had a choice. Pam is casting this as though the hospital foisted this choice on her. That doesn't happen. Her doctors asked her. I mean, Pam has misstated the facts of this case.
HAYES: But they have an obligation to do something...
BURKMAN: It's not an issue of trying to camouflage liability...
O'BRIEN: Wait a minute, Pam, why was it their obligation to do something?
HAYES: Because if they saw a situation and it was a medical emergency, that would in fact put someone's life in jeopardy, they had the obligation to give her the C-section and save the child.
O'BRIEN: What happens if they did just that and the child was still stillborn? Then what? Do they face murder charges? If you follow this logic of this case...
HAYES: Who would file murder? What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
O'BRIEN: Well, if you're saying the woman refuses the C-section, the child is stillborn, she faces murder charges. If she says, "Yes, I'll have the C-section" and the child is still stillborn, isn't the doctor subject to the same...
BURKMAN: No, Miles. The answer is it goes to causation...
HAYES: Stillbirth does not come from this type of injury. The first thing you've got to find out is what was the cause of the baby's death?
O'BRIEN: Hello, yes, of course.
HAYES: No, no, and the second thing you have to find out is...
BURKMAN: Pam, let me ask a simple question...
HAYES: ... attributed to her. Who said she made it? What about privacy rights here?
BURKMAN: Let me ask a simple question. Let me ask a simply question.
O'BRIEN: Go ahead.
BURKMAN: Did this woman -- did this woman have a choice or did she not? You're alleging that the hospital foisted this on her. HAYES: I don't know. I don't know. The doctor said -- I don't know what the doctor said. You're assuming and making all these assertion. You've got to know what was told to the person.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this...
HAYES: ... if they said, you can have a C-section and maybe the kid would be OK, that's different than charging someone with an intentional act.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this. Where do the rights of a woman end, and where do the rights of a fetus begin, in the eyes of the law?
HAYES: I don't know. Well, I know you can only charge a live person with murder. I don't know what the code is in Utah. But I do know that a doctor can just not say, "Oh, just because, you know, she didn't want to have a C-section"...
BURKMAN: Miles, I...
HAYES: ... this is why you had a stillbirth. That is ludicrous.
BURKMAN: You wonder why when you look at a society where there's all of this neglect of children, we have all of this abuse of children. And you wonder...
HAYES: We're not talking about that here.
BURKMAN: ... if you start with something like this -- This reflects, but it reflects a broader trend in the society, and that is a callous, not caring about children. I mean, when you have a woman who...
HAYES: That's insane.
BURKMAN: The state has to send a signal. State law has to send a signal, that when you have a woman who would put her own cosmetic well being ahead of the life of the child...
HAYES: Says who? She said she didn't say it, Jack.
BURKMAN: ... not just injury to the child, but the life of the child, a good state, and Utah has a good state legislature, they want to send a signal. And I think that's what this is about.
HAYES: This is not about politics. This is a criminal allegation where someone is on trial for their life, somebody else is dead. Never had an opportunity...
BURKMAN: The child is dead.
HAYES: Yes.
BURKMAN: The child is dead.
HAYES: The fetus -- wasn't born. You can't tell me with absolute certainty...
BURKMAN: It amazes me in these type of things, Pam...
HAYES: It should amaze you, Jack. It should amaze you because the woman said she didn't make that statement. And you're just giving it to her...
BURKMAN: What amazes me is that we've had these kinds of debates before, but you go on and on. And I never hear you mention the child. You talk about the rights of the woman, the liability of the hospital, but never the life of the child.
HAYES: You have to listen carefully.
O'BRIEN: Final time. We've got to go. All right. Pam Hayes, Jack Burkman, thank you very much for joining us.
BURKMAN: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: A lively debate. Obviously didn't settle that one. Thank you very much.
This Utah story also raises all kinds of tricky medical, ethical issues. How far can or should doctors go in a situation like this? Pam was referring to that.
Next hour, we'll talk about it with a medical ethicist.
The brazen abduction of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia stunned a nation. We'll go live to Florida for some legal developments in that case, on the man accused of grabbing her, in a little while.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carrie had this hat in the episode where her and Charlotte are sitting and rating the guys in New York City on who they would sleep with or not. So there you go.
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O'BRIEN: And sex sells. Now you can own the designer duds worn by the "Sex and the City" cast. We're plunking down the plastic a little later on LIVE FROM.
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O'BRIEN: Live pictures now, Madrid, Spain, is the dateline. This is the end of what is the first full day of national mourning in the wake of that terrible bombing campaign in the rush hour, striking several trains in the Spanish capital, killing upwards of 200 people.
Reports just this hour that the Basque separatist group, which has bedeviled Spain for three decades now, is now denying responsibility for that coordinated attack. Still, many open questions about who might be responsible for the attacks.
Nevertheless, Spain remains in mourning with a deep sense of loss.
The president of the United States, meanwhile, in Washington is with the Spanish ambassador there. He is there to pay respects and lay a wreath. And we will have some picture of that in just a little bit.
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Investigators Looking for Those Behind the Blast; Bush Campaign Ads Turn Negative; Mother Charged with Murder for Nixing C-Section>
