Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Change in Spain; Judge may Order new Trial for Convicted Molester; Horror in Fresno

Aired March 15, 2004 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Stories we're watching at this hour.
A drive-by shooting claims the lives of three U.S. civilian workers in Iraq. Coalition officials say it happened in the northern city of Mosul. Two American civilian workers wounded in the attack, as well. They are being treated at a U.S. Army combat support hospital in Mosul.

A New Spanish government and a New policy in Iraq. Spain's New prime minister-elect says he'll withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq if the U.N. doesn't take charge there. Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's socialist party, not the conservatives from power from in Sunday's election. Some voters appear to blame Thursday's terror attacks on the government's support for the war in Iraq.

It could be a major battleground state in November. And today, Mr. Bush is back in Pennsylvania promoting home ownership. A record number of Americans own their own homes, a fact Mr. Bush hopes will not be lost on voters.

For his part, Senator John Kerry bashes the president's record on homeland security in a speech to firefighters. The International Association of Firefighters has endorseed Kerry. Kerry says Bush hasn't backed up his rhetoric with financial resources for firefighters. That's a claim disputed by the Bush-Cheney campaign.

Up first this hour, a changing of the guard, a U-turn for the troops, a crack in the U.S.-led coalition. The surprise results of yesterday's elections in Spain. Elections carried out in the aftermath of terror in Madrid apparently mean a quicker than expected homecoming for Spanish troops in Iraq.

CNN's Diana Muriel is in the Spanish capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A shock result in Spain's general election at the weekend, with the incoming socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, wasting no time at a press conference earlier Monday, where he reinforced his political pledge to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq. That had been a key promise as part of his election platform. Now the people are keen that he should deliver on that.

JOSE LUIS RODRIGUEZ ZAPATERO, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER-ELECT (through translator): I don't agree with the war in Iraq. I don't think there was a reason to go into war, and I think time is giving me the credit that it was not a good idea to go in. And I don't think that the administration in Iraq is the best.

MURIEL: He did leave some room for maneuver, saying that if the United Nations were to produce another resolution, that they may remain. But in the meantime, it looks as if Spanish troops will be pulling out of Iraq by the end of the current mandate, June 30th.

Meanwhile, here in Madrid, outside Atocha station, which was the scene of the carnage on Thursday, people still coming to lay flowers, to light candles, and to leave messages. Not just messages of condolence, but also messages which are political in nature.

They want the answers to the question, who was behind this outrage, and why did it take place here? And those answers still not forthcoming from the authorities who are continuing their investigation into the atrocities that took place last Thursday.

Diana Muriel, CNN, in Madrid.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Massing on the borders: waiting for orders to go in. That's how it stood a year ago today for coalition forces eyeing Iraq. Five days later, the bombs were falling. Ground troops on the move and Saddam Hussein was headed underground. Baghdad quickly fell, and a lot easier than some have predicted.

Of course, it's been anything but easy ever since. More than 30 countries still have troops on duty there, 564 U.S. forces have died, plus thousands of Iraqis. And no weapons of mass destruction have turned up. Yet Bush administration officials say they consider the invasion and occupation of Iraq justified.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Reconstruction needs in Iraq are enormous. Thirty years ago, Iraq was a relatively prosperous nation. But today, it shows the deep scars, decades of abuse, and decades of neglect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The U.S. is scheduled to hand over power to a transitional government at the end of June. Before that happens, some Americans are calling for the military action there to end. They include relatives of some of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq. Dozens of people marched through the streets of Washington this morning to rally near the White House.

And now let's go shift our attention to the West Coast, where a convicted child molester is seeking vindication for spending 20 years in prison. Most of John Stoll's accusers have recanted their testimony. Now a judge may order a new trial.

Our Kimberly Osias is in Bakersfield, California, with details -- Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, closing arguments are expected to begin at 1:30 Pacific Time in the case of 60-year-old John Stoll. He has been convicted, along with several others, of being involved in a so-called sex ring here in Bakersfield back in the '80s. And for about the past two decades, he's been behind bars based solely on testimony of six young boys.

Now, those boys have grown up to be men. Four of those said now they're coming forward saying they are recanting that testimony, saying they essentially were forced to lie, forced by investigators.

Of those other two, one young man says he doesn't recall what happened. And the other one, that is John Stoll's own son, Jed, he says he is sticking to his story. Defense attorneys essentially refute that, saying that Jed Stoll never knew specifics. He only really just remembered it.

Now, Stoll was convicted without any kind of physical evidence whatsoever. None of the boys had medical exams, including Edward Sampley, who now says he now deals with overwhelming guilt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARD SAMPLEY, RECANTING ACCUSER: I feel very violated. These people came into my house, pressured me to say things that did not happen, wouldn't leave me alone or my family until I said I would testify that something happened.

He's been in jail 20 years now. He's lost his life. He'll never get that back. It's an injustice, and I would like to get this burden lifted off my shoulders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Sampley says he was pressured intensely. He was taken out of school. In fact, his parents weren't even allowed in the interrogation room. Again, closing arguments are expected at 1:30 Pacific Time.

Now, Miles, also of interest here, the judge just ruled that the expert in the Jeffrey Modal (ph) case will be allowed to present testimony here. Now, that is important because this county actually has to shell out some $4 million in that case for a wrongful conviction -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thank you very much.

In other news across America now, a mother charged in the murder of her unborn twin child pleads not guilty. Melissa Ann Rowland is charged with killing the unborn child by refusing a cesarean section.

Martha Stewart takes a step down from the company she founded. Stewart resigned today from the board of directors of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia. She'll keep her role as the founding editorial director of the company. Stewart was convicted in her obstruction of justice trial this month, as you will recall, of course.

In another corporate scandal case, closing arguments are under way in the trial of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski. The defense denied Kozlowski stole $600 million from the conglomerate and said he's not a thief. Charges against Kozlowski include grand larceny, which is punishable by up to 25 years in prison.

A tragic murder case in Fresno, California, and a tough one for police to sort out.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Still more questions than answers. I'm Rusty Dornin, in Fresno, where the police chief will update us shortly coming up.

O'BRIEN: Also ahead, some tunes with your latte? That's brewing in business.

And need a job? Donald Trump is auditioning again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: A twisted tale of murder, possible incest, and polygamy. In Fresno, California, autopsies are under way in that horrific mass murder. Meanwhile, investigators say the suspect may not be the only person involved in this case.

CNN's Rusty Dornin is live from Fresno with all the details for us -- Rusty.

DORNIN: Well, police are having a tough time untangling this web of polygamy and incest, Miles. Marcus Wesson apparently was the father of two of the victims, two of the women, but also fathered two of the children with his daughters.

Now, six autopsies apparently have been completed. So far, gunshot wounds were all involved. They have not told us specifically where those gunshot wounds were, although we do understand that police are conducting gunshot residue tests on one of the victims.

Now, that could indicate whether one of the victims was involved in also perhaps shooting other victims, or perhaps shooting them herself. So they're going to determine that.

Also, police are saying that those gunshot wounds, while they are very similar, and there is a pattern, there also is some uniqueness to it. But the big question police are trying to figure out right now is why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JERRY DYER, FRESNO CALIFORNIA POLICE: We've gone back out to his residence and picked up some additional material that we feel will help us to better establish the motive as to why these murders occurred. And so we're continuing with that part of the investigation today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: And that part of the investigation, apparently they're going to be serving another search warrant on that house in a very short period of time. They did -- as you can see, they were taking evidence out of the house on Sunday.

Police are also trying to sort out exactly who these victims were. They suspect they know who they are, but no one has stepped forward to actually claim or identify those bodies.

Marcus Wesson, meantime, of course, is in jail here in Fresno County. And it looks as though he may be arraigned Wednesday morning -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Rusty Dornin in Fresno. Such a horrifying case. It's hard to come up with any sort of answers, I know.

Let's turn now to a criminologist who has helped us sort out such issues in the past. Carl Taylor is a criminologist at Michigan State University. He joins us from Detroit.

Professor Taylor, good to have you with us.

CARL TAYLOR, CRIMINOLOGIST: Thank you for having me.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's -- I don't even know where to begin on this one, because there's so many taboos layered on top of taboos and horrifying aspects of all this.

I guess the first thing I wonder is, how does a community cope with something like this? There's got to be all kinds of people who saw some things now which in retrospect seemed very suspicious.

TAYLOR: Well, it's very difficult. And you're correct to say a layer of taboos. You know, neighbors are going to wonder should they have said something, did they see something. School teachers, social workers, there's a whole list of community folks who now are second- guessing and perhaps may even have guilt.

O'BRIEN: Yes. I can only imagine that there's going to be a lot of counseling that's going to need to be done in that community as they cope with all of this. How much of this fits -- if there is a pattern for such things, how much of this fits a pattern of cult crime?

TAYLOR: Well, it certainly fits the pattern. But I think we have to be careful. We don't know what type of cult it was. Whether it was a political cult, a religious cult, or a new cult, we just don't know. We know this is the type of bizarre behavior that is associated with cults, but we need more information.

O'BRIEN: It's hard, though, for those of us on the outside of such things to understand how at least apparently people would willingly be marched to a slaughter. You know, this Jim Jones effect, if you will. I'm talking about, of course, the mass murders...

TAYLOR: Correct.

O'BRIEN: How does that happen? How does a cult, an enigmatic person establish that environment?

TAYLOR: Well, I think you look at the David-Branch group there, you look at Charles Manson. It is brainwashing over a period of time. And if people are very vulnerable, they follow a leader with charisma.

In this case, just looking at this man -- and I certainly don't want to speculate and prejudge -- but he's an intimidating looking individual. So there's different ways to make people follow you. And you can isolate them and cut them off from other contacts with outsiders or friends, or even other family members. So we don't know the method, but there are several.

O'BRIEN: Is it a bit unusual to you that the suspect in this case is alive and didn't choose suicide? In other words, his own death as part of the death of the cult?

TAYLOR: Right. Well, no, not really. I mean, it varies.

You have Charles Manson stayed alive. Many times these people do stay alive, and there's so much that's bizarre that we don't know if he's really -- that he feels that he's still here, or that he felt that he did the right thing.

So the question marks may remain. We may not ever get the answers. But I don't find it unusual. There is no set answer. And that really is the difficult part for us to understand.

O'BRIEN: So, yes, it's obviously early, I know, but you just got through saying you don't think we may ever know the answers. I mean, is there any chance that he will shed light in any reasonable way on what happened?

TAYLOR: Well, he may very well shed light. They said that he was very articulate. He may -- unfortunately, we may not agree with his shedding of light.

Absolutely, we feel, many of us -- I personally think -- that this is insanity. So can we make sense out of insanity? You know, he put you out of your suffering.

I had spoken to someone earlier today and said that I have talked to individuals who have committed homicide and they talk about putting people to sleep. Well, they're talking about permanent sleep, and I wouldn't say they're putting them to sleep. They're committing murder. But they felt otherwise. So it's very difficult to reason with someone who has committed murder and think that they've done the right thing.

O'BRIEN: And it's very hard to draw that line of sanity and insanity, isn't it?

TAYLOR: Yes, it is. And particularly when we're looking at even the whole question of incest. I mean, most Americans are shocked to think that you would harm your own children.

And, after all, a father or a mother is the guardian of children. And for them to bring harm really is just so repugnant to most Americans. We just can't get into understanding this.

O'BRIEN: All right. Carl Taylor, criminologist with Michigan State University, thanks for helping us try to sort this out. We appreciate it.

TAYLOR: Thank you for having me.

O'BRIEN: "The Passion" goes three for three at the box office. And Britney Spears tries her hand at the cosmetics game. We'll tell you about it in today's "Entertainment Buzz."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Some breaking political news to tell you about. CNN has learned that Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton has decided to bow out of the race and throw his support to the presumptive Democratic nominee, John Kerry.

CNN's Candy Crowley joining us live from Washington with details.

Hello, Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Not so much that we've learned it, but it floated into our e-mail. It came in the form of a press release, e-mail press release from the Kerry campaign entitled "Statement from John Kerry on Reverend Al Sheraton's endorsement" of his campaign for the presidency.

And it does just that, saying he has always admired Sharpton's way of cutting through the double talk, that he welcomes Sheraton's endorsement. That Al Sharpton has pointed out many times that this administration's policy toward cities has been of neglect. He talks about the high unemployment rate of males in New York City at 50 percent.

He says he looks forward to working with Reverend Al Sharpton. We just actually haven't heard from Al Sharpton yet.

So the two were meeting today, and they may even now be coming out and talking to reporters. But when last we checked, it was the Kerry campaign sending out an e-mail thanking Al Sharpton for his endorsement. I think we'll hear from Al Sharpton shortly.

O'BRIEN: I suspect we will, in fact, hear from Mr. Sharpton.

CROWLEY: Maybe someone just pulled the trigger a little too early. But it does seem to be a done deal.

O'BRIEN: One of the safer bets today. All right. Candy Crowley, and of course the police to stay tuned for all developments, including Al Sharpton's apparent bow out, is "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS." Today, Candy Crowley is in the driver's seat. And in addition to that subject which we just told you about, we're going to talk about what Dennis Kucinich is up to, as well. Who remains in the race, at least as far as we know now.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Let's check some entertainment headlines this Monday.

"The Passion of the Christ" topped the box office for the third straight weekend. The movie brought in $32 million this past weekend. Johnny Depp's horror movie, "Secret Window," debuted in second place.

You have what it takes to work for the Donald? The suit types were lining up, hoping they do. About 1,000 people auditioned in Burbank, California, for the second season of the reality show "The Apprentice." Kind of odd that a show that involves around New York would have its auditions in Burbank, but hey, go figure. Contestants compete for a high-paying job working for the billionaire, Donald Trump, hoping not to hear the words, "You're fired."

Well, Jennifer Lopez did it. So did Elizabeth Taylor. And now Britney Spears who is doing it.

No, we're not talking about getting married multiple times, for sometimes a matter of minutes. No. Pop star Britney Spears is developing heir own line of perfumes and makeup with Elizabeth Arden.

Spears' first product will be a fragrance, and we can just hardly wait. We'll keep you posted.

That wraps up this Monday edition of "LIVE FROM." On behalf of Kyra, Phillips, who is off today, I'm Miles O'Brien.

Up next, "INSIDE POLITICS," with Candy Crowley, who is in for Judy today after a quick break.

Stay with CNN.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Molester; Horror in Fresno>


Aired March 15, 2004 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Stories we're watching at this hour.
A drive-by shooting claims the lives of three U.S. civilian workers in Iraq. Coalition officials say it happened in the northern city of Mosul. Two American civilian workers wounded in the attack, as well. They are being treated at a U.S. Army combat support hospital in Mosul.

A New Spanish government and a New policy in Iraq. Spain's New prime minister-elect says he'll withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq if the U.N. doesn't take charge there. Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's socialist party, not the conservatives from power from in Sunday's election. Some voters appear to blame Thursday's terror attacks on the government's support for the war in Iraq.

It could be a major battleground state in November. And today, Mr. Bush is back in Pennsylvania promoting home ownership. A record number of Americans own their own homes, a fact Mr. Bush hopes will not be lost on voters.

For his part, Senator John Kerry bashes the president's record on homeland security in a speech to firefighters. The International Association of Firefighters has endorseed Kerry. Kerry says Bush hasn't backed up his rhetoric with financial resources for firefighters. That's a claim disputed by the Bush-Cheney campaign.

Up first this hour, a changing of the guard, a U-turn for the troops, a crack in the U.S.-led coalition. The surprise results of yesterday's elections in Spain. Elections carried out in the aftermath of terror in Madrid apparently mean a quicker than expected homecoming for Spanish troops in Iraq.

CNN's Diana Muriel is in the Spanish capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A shock result in Spain's general election at the weekend, with the incoming socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, wasting no time at a press conference earlier Monday, where he reinforced his political pledge to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq. That had been a key promise as part of his election platform. Now the people are keen that he should deliver on that.

JOSE LUIS RODRIGUEZ ZAPATERO, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER-ELECT (through translator): I don't agree with the war in Iraq. I don't think there was a reason to go into war, and I think time is giving me the credit that it was not a good idea to go in. And I don't think that the administration in Iraq is the best.

MURIEL: He did leave some room for maneuver, saying that if the United Nations were to produce another resolution, that they may remain. But in the meantime, it looks as if Spanish troops will be pulling out of Iraq by the end of the current mandate, June 30th.

Meanwhile, here in Madrid, outside Atocha station, which was the scene of the carnage on Thursday, people still coming to lay flowers, to light candles, and to leave messages. Not just messages of condolence, but also messages which are political in nature.

They want the answers to the question, who was behind this outrage, and why did it take place here? And those answers still not forthcoming from the authorities who are continuing their investigation into the atrocities that took place last Thursday.

Diana Muriel, CNN, in Madrid.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Massing on the borders: waiting for orders to go in. That's how it stood a year ago today for coalition forces eyeing Iraq. Five days later, the bombs were falling. Ground troops on the move and Saddam Hussein was headed underground. Baghdad quickly fell, and a lot easier than some have predicted.

Of course, it's been anything but easy ever since. More than 30 countries still have troops on duty there, 564 U.S. forces have died, plus thousands of Iraqis. And no weapons of mass destruction have turned up. Yet Bush administration officials say they consider the invasion and occupation of Iraq justified.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Reconstruction needs in Iraq are enormous. Thirty years ago, Iraq was a relatively prosperous nation. But today, it shows the deep scars, decades of abuse, and decades of neglect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The U.S. is scheduled to hand over power to a transitional government at the end of June. Before that happens, some Americans are calling for the military action there to end. They include relatives of some of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq. Dozens of people marched through the streets of Washington this morning to rally near the White House.

And now let's go shift our attention to the West Coast, where a convicted child molester is seeking vindication for spending 20 years in prison. Most of John Stoll's accusers have recanted their testimony. Now a judge may order a new trial.

Our Kimberly Osias is in Bakersfield, California, with details -- Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, closing arguments are expected to begin at 1:30 Pacific Time in the case of 60-year-old John Stoll. He has been convicted, along with several others, of being involved in a so-called sex ring here in Bakersfield back in the '80s. And for about the past two decades, he's been behind bars based solely on testimony of six young boys.

Now, those boys have grown up to be men. Four of those said now they're coming forward saying they are recanting that testimony, saying they essentially were forced to lie, forced by investigators.

Of those other two, one young man says he doesn't recall what happened. And the other one, that is John Stoll's own son, Jed, he says he is sticking to his story. Defense attorneys essentially refute that, saying that Jed Stoll never knew specifics. He only really just remembered it.

Now, Stoll was convicted without any kind of physical evidence whatsoever. None of the boys had medical exams, including Edward Sampley, who now says he now deals with overwhelming guilt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARD SAMPLEY, RECANTING ACCUSER: I feel very violated. These people came into my house, pressured me to say things that did not happen, wouldn't leave me alone or my family until I said I would testify that something happened.

He's been in jail 20 years now. He's lost his life. He'll never get that back. It's an injustice, and I would like to get this burden lifted off my shoulders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Sampley says he was pressured intensely. He was taken out of school. In fact, his parents weren't even allowed in the interrogation room. Again, closing arguments are expected at 1:30 Pacific Time.

Now, Miles, also of interest here, the judge just ruled that the expert in the Jeffrey Modal (ph) case will be allowed to present testimony here. Now, that is important because this county actually has to shell out some $4 million in that case for a wrongful conviction -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thank you very much.

In other news across America now, a mother charged in the murder of her unborn twin child pleads not guilty. Melissa Ann Rowland is charged with killing the unborn child by refusing a cesarean section.

Martha Stewart takes a step down from the company she founded. Stewart resigned today from the board of directors of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia. She'll keep her role as the founding editorial director of the company. Stewart was convicted in her obstruction of justice trial this month, as you will recall, of course.

In another corporate scandal case, closing arguments are under way in the trial of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski. The defense denied Kozlowski stole $600 million from the conglomerate and said he's not a thief. Charges against Kozlowski include grand larceny, which is punishable by up to 25 years in prison.

A tragic murder case in Fresno, California, and a tough one for police to sort out.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Still more questions than answers. I'm Rusty Dornin, in Fresno, where the police chief will update us shortly coming up.

O'BRIEN: Also ahead, some tunes with your latte? That's brewing in business.

And need a job? Donald Trump is auditioning again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: A twisted tale of murder, possible incest, and polygamy. In Fresno, California, autopsies are under way in that horrific mass murder. Meanwhile, investigators say the suspect may not be the only person involved in this case.

CNN's Rusty Dornin is live from Fresno with all the details for us -- Rusty.

DORNIN: Well, police are having a tough time untangling this web of polygamy and incest, Miles. Marcus Wesson apparently was the father of two of the victims, two of the women, but also fathered two of the children with his daughters.

Now, six autopsies apparently have been completed. So far, gunshot wounds were all involved. They have not told us specifically where those gunshot wounds were, although we do understand that police are conducting gunshot residue tests on one of the victims.

Now, that could indicate whether one of the victims was involved in also perhaps shooting other victims, or perhaps shooting them herself. So they're going to determine that.

Also, police are saying that those gunshot wounds, while they are very similar, and there is a pattern, there also is some uniqueness to it. But the big question police are trying to figure out right now is why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JERRY DYER, FRESNO CALIFORNIA POLICE: We've gone back out to his residence and picked up some additional material that we feel will help us to better establish the motive as to why these murders occurred. And so we're continuing with that part of the investigation today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: And that part of the investigation, apparently they're going to be serving another search warrant on that house in a very short period of time. They did -- as you can see, they were taking evidence out of the house on Sunday.

Police are also trying to sort out exactly who these victims were. They suspect they know who they are, but no one has stepped forward to actually claim or identify those bodies.

Marcus Wesson, meantime, of course, is in jail here in Fresno County. And it looks as though he may be arraigned Wednesday morning -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Rusty Dornin in Fresno. Such a horrifying case. It's hard to come up with any sort of answers, I know.

Let's turn now to a criminologist who has helped us sort out such issues in the past. Carl Taylor is a criminologist at Michigan State University. He joins us from Detroit.

Professor Taylor, good to have you with us.

CARL TAYLOR, CRIMINOLOGIST: Thank you for having me.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's -- I don't even know where to begin on this one, because there's so many taboos layered on top of taboos and horrifying aspects of all this.

I guess the first thing I wonder is, how does a community cope with something like this? There's got to be all kinds of people who saw some things now which in retrospect seemed very suspicious.

TAYLOR: Well, it's very difficult. And you're correct to say a layer of taboos. You know, neighbors are going to wonder should they have said something, did they see something. School teachers, social workers, there's a whole list of community folks who now are second- guessing and perhaps may even have guilt.

O'BRIEN: Yes. I can only imagine that there's going to be a lot of counseling that's going to need to be done in that community as they cope with all of this. How much of this fits -- if there is a pattern for such things, how much of this fits a pattern of cult crime?

TAYLOR: Well, it certainly fits the pattern. But I think we have to be careful. We don't know what type of cult it was. Whether it was a political cult, a religious cult, or a new cult, we just don't know. We know this is the type of bizarre behavior that is associated with cults, but we need more information.

O'BRIEN: It's hard, though, for those of us on the outside of such things to understand how at least apparently people would willingly be marched to a slaughter. You know, this Jim Jones effect, if you will. I'm talking about, of course, the mass murders...

TAYLOR: Correct.

O'BRIEN: How does that happen? How does a cult, an enigmatic person establish that environment?

TAYLOR: Well, I think you look at the David-Branch group there, you look at Charles Manson. It is brainwashing over a period of time. And if people are very vulnerable, they follow a leader with charisma.

In this case, just looking at this man -- and I certainly don't want to speculate and prejudge -- but he's an intimidating looking individual. So there's different ways to make people follow you. And you can isolate them and cut them off from other contacts with outsiders or friends, or even other family members. So we don't know the method, but there are several.

O'BRIEN: Is it a bit unusual to you that the suspect in this case is alive and didn't choose suicide? In other words, his own death as part of the death of the cult?

TAYLOR: Right. Well, no, not really. I mean, it varies.

You have Charles Manson stayed alive. Many times these people do stay alive, and there's so much that's bizarre that we don't know if he's really -- that he feels that he's still here, or that he felt that he did the right thing.

So the question marks may remain. We may not ever get the answers. But I don't find it unusual. There is no set answer. And that really is the difficult part for us to understand.

O'BRIEN: So, yes, it's obviously early, I know, but you just got through saying you don't think we may ever know the answers. I mean, is there any chance that he will shed light in any reasonable way on what happened?

TAYLOR: Well, he may very well shed light. They said that he was very articulate. He may -- unfortunately, we may not agree with his shedding of light.

Absolutely, we feel, many of us -- I personally think -- that this is insanity. So can we make sense out of insanity? You know, he put you out of your suffering.

I had spoken to someone earlier today and said that I have talked to individuals who have committed homicide and they talk about putting people to sleep. Well, they're talking about permanent sleep, and I wouldn't say they're putting them to sleep. They're committing murder. But they felt otherwise. So it's very difficult to reason with someone who has committed murder and think that they've done the right thing.

O'BRIEN: And it's very hard to draw that line of sanity and insanity, isn't it?

TAYLOR: Yes, it is. And particularly when we're looking at even the whole question of incest. I mean, most Americans are shocked to think that you would harm your own children.

And, after all, a father or a mother is the guardian of children. And for them to bring harm really is just so repugnant to most Americans. We just can't get into understanding this.

O'BRIEN: All right. Carl Taylor, criminologist with Michigan State University, thanks for helping us try to sort this out. We appreciate it.

TAYLOR: Thank you for having me.

O'BRIEN: "The Passion" goes three for three at the box office. And Britney Spears tries her hand at the cosmetics game. We'll tell you about it in today's "Entertainment Buzz."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Some breaking political news to tell you about. CNN has learned that Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton has decided to bow out of the race and throw his support to the presumptive Democratic nominee, John Kerry.

CNN's Candy Crowley joining us live from Washington with details.

Hello, Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Not so much that we've learned it, but it floated into our e-mail. It came in the form of a press release, e-mail press release from the Kerry campaign entitled "Statement from John Kerry on Reverend Al Sheraton's endorsement" of his campaign for the presidency.

And it does just that, saying he has always admired Sharpton's way of cutting through the double talk, that he welcomes Sheraton's endorsement. That Al Sharpton has pointed out many times that this administration's policy toward cities has been of neglect. He talks about the high unemployment rate of males in New York City at 50 percent.

He says he looks forward to working with Reverend Al Sharpton. We just actually haven't heard from Al Sharpton yet.

So the two were meeting today, and they may even now be coming out and talking to reporters. But when last we checked, it was the Kerry campaign sending out an e-mail thanking Al Sharpton for his endorsement. I think we'll hear from Al Sharpton shortly.

O'BRIEN: I suspect we will, in fact, hear from Mr. Sharpton.

CROWLEY: Maybe someone just pulled the trigger a little too early. But it does seem to be a done deal.

O'BRIEN: One of the safer bets today. All right. Candy Crowley, and of course the police to stay tuned for all developments, including Al Sharpton's apparent bow out, is "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS." Today, Candy Crowley is in the driver's seat. And in addition to that subject which we just told you about, we're going to talk about what Dennis Kucinich is up to, as well. Who remains in the race, at least as far as we know now.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Let's check some entertainment headlines this Monday.

"The Passion of the Christ" topped the box office for the third straight weekend. The movie brought in $32 million this past weekend. Johnny Depp's horror movie, "Secret Window," debuted in second place.

You have what it takes to work for the Donald? The suit types were lining up, hoping they do. About 1,000 people auditioned in Burbank, California, for the second season of the reality show "The Apprentice." Kind of odd that a show that involves around New York would have its auditions in Burbank, but hey, go figure. Contestants compete for a high-paying job working for the billionaire, Donald Trump, hoping not to hear the words, "You're fired."

Well, Jennifer Lopez did it. So did Elizabeth Taylor. And now Britney Spears who is doing it.

No, we're not talking about getting married multiple times, for sometimes a matter of minutes. No. Pop star Britney Spears is developing heir own line of perfumes and makeup with Elizabeth Arden.

Spears' first product will be a fragrance, and we can just hardly wait. We'll keep you posted.

That wraps up this Monday edition of "LIVE FROM." On behalf of Kyra, Phillips, who is off today, I'm Miles O'Brien.

Up next, "INSIDE POLITICS," with Candy Crowley, who is in for Judy today after a quick break.

Stay with CNN.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Molester; Horror in Fresno>