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Attorney Defends Saddam; How Can Saddam be Defended?; Afghan Elections Postponed; Michael Jackson Grand Jury Hears Evidence; Police Rescue Girl, 6, from Pornographers; Study: Honey Good for Health
Aired March 29, 2004 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: Checking headlines at the half hour. Historic day for NATO. Today, President Bush is welcoming in seven former Soviet bloc countries NATO was initially established to defend itself from.
Those countries are Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. The expansion increases NATO membership from 19 countries to 26.
In northeastern Wisconsin, even some four-wheelers were getting swamped by floodwaters. Last week too much snow; this week, too much rain. The police chief in Anchiko (ph) says it's the worst flooding in 40 years. Homes and businesses have been evacuated and schools are closed today.
Age discrimination is on the docket at the Supreme Court. The justices have agreed to hear a Mississippi case that could make it harder to prove age discrimination on the job.
The case involves Jackson, Mississippi, police officers over age 40. They say their pay raises were proportionately smaller than younger officers.
French lawyer Jacques Verges says that he will lead an international team defending Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACQUES VERGES, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S LAWYER: The leaders of the coalition accuse him, which has the accusation of -- I read the newspaper, ears, broadcast, the main accusation is to have in his possession, to have had mass destruction weapons and eventually to have used them.
Who says this to him? The United States and England. And the man who was the representative for this bargain, for this market, for this deal is called Mr. Rumsfeld.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, you can see of that interview tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
U.S. law holds that all defendants are entitled to a fair trial, even if you are Saddam Hussein. Joining us from New York to discuss defending Saddam, defense attorney Ron Kuby.
Hi, Ron.
RON KUBY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, how you doing?
PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, can Jacques Verges practice in Iraq?
KUBY: That's a great question, because right now Iraq is being run entirely by the American occupational authority. There is no functioning judicial system. And the tribunals that will ultimately try Saddam Hussein hasn't been formed.
But in first impression, you don't have a right to practice law in a foreign country. I'm here in New York. I don't have the right to practice law in New Jersey without the approval of New Jersey authorities.
PHILLIPS: Well, and Saddam has not even been formally charged. So what kind of access would he have to Saddam right now, and if and when Saddam is charged, then what type of access could he have, let's say, of course, if he could practice in Iraq?
KUBY: Well, you know, part of the problem is we're talking about a judicial system that doesn't exist and laws that have not yet been made.
But as a general matter, Saddam Hussein enjoys prisoner of war status. And as a POW, who may be charged with a war crime or a crime against humanity, he should have some access to counsel. But it's entirely at the discretion of the American occupation authority.
PHILLIPS: So let me ask you two questions. No. 1, would you defend Saddam Hussein?
KUBY: I'm sort of busy these days, but you mean in theory.
PHILLIPS: I know the people you've defended. I want a short answer.
KUBY: OK. Yes.
PHILLIPS: You would?
KUBY: Yes, I would. And I'll tell you why. I think it is creditably important that every defendant get a fair trial.
And we've already seen a nation misled, driven into war based on totally false allegations, allegations that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction; he was prepared to use them against the United States; that he had links to al Qaeda and possible complicity in September 11.
All of those accusation were made by high administration officials. None of them were true.
Now the irony is that you don't need truth to go to war. War is an active state, not an evidentiary act. But truth should have a place in a courtroom, and the government should be required to prove these allegations if proof they have.
PHILLIPS: Ron, how would you defend a man -- just imagine the witnesses that would come forward from the gassing of the Kurds, the gassing of the Iranian military, the torture tapes.
I mean, I could just imagine the slew of witnesses that would come forward and tell you their personal testimony of how Saddam Hussein affected him, her, and their families.
KUBY: But, of course, there is no proof from those eyewitnesses, those who felt the sting of the regime. There is no proof that Saddam Hussein actually ordered or agreed with these particular acts, just as President Bush is not responsible for every act of police misconduct in the United States or every criminal act that an American soldier commits.
So you actually have to prove that Saddam Hussein either personally did something or gave orders allowing other people to do that on his authority.
PHILLIPS: What about the mass graves? The mass gravesites? Soldiers already have come forward and talked about ordered they received from Saddam Hussein.
KUBY: You always have lower ranking people claiming that they received orders from higher-ranking people. You don't yet have any proof Saddam Hussein gave orders, except with one exception.
And that's in the Iran/on Iraq war, where gas indeed was used against Iranians. I don't know that that constitutes a crime under Iraqi law, but I do know that the United States government was complicit in those gas attacks, actually provided targeting and other information.
That one U.S. general -- because we were supporting Saddam Hussein at the time. People need to remember that then, he was still evil, but he was better than the evil Iranians who we were opposed to after the hostage takeover in 1979.
One American general actually came forward and said, "Look, it didn't matter whether Saddam Hussein killed the Iranians with machine gun bullets or with FASG (ph). The important thing is that he kills them."
PHILLIPS: I guess anything is possible. But is it possible that Saddam Hussein could walk the streets again, could be a free man?
KUBY: You know, the irony of that is that this trial is incredibly important to the United States, because as the other rationales for war have evaporated, the Bush administration has clung to the notion that, look, Saddam Hussein is a terrible person. He did horrible things. The world is better off without him, and the cost, the terrible cost of civilian deaths and American soldiers was worth that price.
He has to prove that in court that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, do these things. But it can't appear to be a kangaroo court. It can't appear to be another mockery or a sham trial. Otherwise you will lose any credibility you hoped to gain from the proceedings in the first place.
PHILLIPS: Now for someone that has just come on and told you would definitely take this case and defend Saddam Hussein, would this -- or will this case be worth it? You know, somebody...
KUBY: It's a real career booster, let me tell you. Even as we speak, people are calling me on the phone up to congratulate me.
PHILLIPS: You're going to get phone calls, e-mails. You're going to get death threats. You're going down.
KUBY: This is great. My wife is going to love it. My kids.
PHILLIPS: I just ruined your life.
KUBY: Please.
PHILLIPS: No. Will this be worth it? You know, there's been so much talk about, all right, why didn't Saddam Hussein just get taken out in that spider hole?
Should this go to the courts? Should there be a fair trial? Should all of this happen in whatever way it will happen?
Is it worth it from a humanitarian standpoint? Is it worth it from a legal standpoint? Is it worth it from a kind of a personal standpoint for those who lived under his regime?
KOBY: You know, having watched while the nation was driven to war based on misinformation, false accusation and lies, I think the highest obligation a lawyer has, especially in this type of forum, is to make sure that, to the extent the government has proof, the government has to produce that proof in the crucible of the trial.
That's how we determine whether people are guilty and innocent, in accordance with the highest standards in which this nation was founded.
You know, the son of a Supreme Court justice actually defended accused Nazi saboteurs. He was an American military officer assigned to represent them in 1942. And he said that was the most valuable service he ever performed for his country.
PHILLIPS: Defense attorney Ron Kuby. Always an interesting interview with you, sir. Thank you very much. All right.
Political setback for Afghanistan. The country's landmark national elections are being postponed. Here's CNN's Nic Robertson with the reasons why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Signing up to vote: exactly what most Afghans have been failing to do since voter registration began four months ago.
Of 10 and a half million eligible adults, barely one in 10 have come forward, causing the government to push back June elections to September.
JEAN ARNAULT, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR AFGHANISTAN: The decision, indeed, is going to make, I think, everybody's life much easier. It will certainly allow the secretariat, the joint election management board to start preparing the holding of these elections.
I think it will also help political parties and candidates to now take -- have a better sense of what has to be accomplished between now and September.
ROBERTSON: Pressure now on the Afghan president to encourage participation in what for most is their first electoral experience.
HAMID KARZAI, AFGHANISTANI PRESIDENT: I would emphasize security for the Afghan people during the elections so that they can vote freely and of their choice in the elections.
ROBERTSON: Steps towards that improvement are already underway.
A pilot project to take heavy weapons and fighters away from former warlords is to be accelerated. Government officials are confident that by June all tanks, artillery and big guns will be corralled in compounds like this.
And 40,000 militia, belonging to regional power brokers, will be demobilized, undercutting their ability to stifle democracy and Kabul's authority.
(on camera) Creating outside confidence Afghanistan is on track to stability could be critical, ahead of this week's international donor's conference in Berlin. However, privately, many overseas officials here are skeptical the government can meet those demobilization deadlines.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: The grand jury taking up the Michael Jackson case is hearing evidence today. We're there live in just a moment.
And a 6-year-old girl is saved from pornographers. The amazing rescue coming up, more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go! Woo! Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: A little excited there. Great pictures of a tornado touchdown in Oklahoma. The twister reportedly tossed a car off the road before sweeping up other debris. No one was injured.
(WEATHER REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Prosecutors making their case against pop star Michael Jackson. They're presenting evidence before a grand jury today in Santa Barbara, California. That's where we find CNN's Miguel Marquez.
Miguel, what's the latest?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is that the grand jury -- CNN has confirmed that the grand jurors will hear testimony today, tomorrow. They'll be off on Wednesday for a Caesar Chavez holiday and then they'll be back at work Thursday and Friday.
So with the exception of the holiday, they would be going five days a week, which is quite a bit for a grand jury, as I suppose, especially if they're going all day long.
The question is, just how much testimony and evidence are they going to see? Is it possible that there is just a whole lot of stuff out there?
The number of search warrants, 18 in all. It's a veritable ream of paperwork of the search warrants and the affidavits and the returns.
The first one started last year, November 17 at Neverland Ranch, Mr. Jackson's home. This latest one was at a Surguard storage facility in -- north of Los Angeles the beginning of this month.
So over the last few months they have taken all sorts of stuff from Mr. Jackson and his associates and his various properties. Thirty-two computers, over 100 videotapes and digital discs, and 506 pages of phone records, cell phone records. (AUDIO GAP)
It gives us some clue what investigators are searching for. That they are trying to establish a relationship between Mr. Jackson and others in unedited material, unedited raw videotape that they are looking for.
There's also a passage in that affidavit indicating that someone may have instructed a witness to put items in a safe deposit box, because they were concerned about a residence or property being searched.
Now one defense attorney I spoke to says that 18 search warrants seems excessive for this sort of case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARTHUR BARENS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It tells me that they have a paucity of evidence here, and that they're throwing their net out as broadly as they can, trying to get anything they can that supports their position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUEZ: Now, the other question is who will testify. Aside from the physical evidence they find or any videotape or documentation that they find, who will testify?
There are reports that the now 14-year-old accuser in this current case may testify at this case. That there's also reports the '93 accuser of Mr. Jackson may also testify, even though they settled that issue out of court.
Keep in mind, though, those individuals as principle witnesses don't necessarily have to testify at a grand jury proceeding. Detectives, doctors and others who talked to these alleged victims could testify on their behalf.
How long is this supposed to take? We understand up to -- around two weeks. The grand jury will hear evidence. And at that point, they will decide if Mr. Jackson should be charged on each and every charge the prosecution asks for.
Twelve of the 19 grand jurors have to vote to indict -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Miguel Marquez, thank you.
Well, they say it's the worse case they have ever seen. Canadian authorities now say they've saved a 6-year-old North Carolina girl from sexual abuse.
Toronto police found pictures of the girl on the Internet, then used some fancy detective work to identify her.
CTV's Peter Murphy has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER MURPHY, CTV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It all began early Sunday morning, November 30.
Detective Paul Gillespie is sent 450 horrendous pornographic images of a young child.
DET. BILL MCGARRY, TORONTO POLICE: One of the imagines of the 6- year-old girl from North Carolina had -- showed her with writings on her body that said, "Kill me; I'm a slut."
MURPHY: The images show the child being beaten, raped and held in a dog cage.
Seven officers of the child exploitation unit are mobilized to find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we all took a portion of the images, and we began going through each one meticulously.
MURPHY: Working almost around the clock, the officers focused in on a wristband on the child's arm, a badge on her Girl Scout uniform.
By Monday, they pinpoint the child's location: Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina. By Tuesday, working with the FBI they locate the girl's school. She is positively identified, then rescued.
Detective Bill McGarry is one of the officers who helped find the girl. He doesn't want his face to be clearly shown.
MCGARRY: When the FBI called us and let us know that they had positively identified the girl, you couldn't hear anything in this office for the shouts of joy.
MURPHY: Charged with child pornography is 41-year-old Brian Shellenberger (ph) of Raleigh, North Carolina. Father of three.
The family home is now empty and up for sale. Neighbors are very stunned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's shocking and it's very disturbing to think that someone that we lived next to for a number of years, someone who had family, would be involved in something like that.
MURPHY: Of the estimated 100,000 abused children worldwide who are victims of child pornography, fewer than 300 have been rescued.
HARVIN PITCH, BEYOND BORDERS: It's almost impossible to identify these children. On the Internet, they are anonymous.
MURPHY (on camera): Despite the remarkable success of this case, anti-porn advocates insist it still highlights the need for even more resources to be devoted to the fight against child pornography.
Peter Murphy, CTV News, Toronto.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Now to medical news, those hated household chores could add years to your life.
U.S. and Chinese researchers say walking and doing chores reduces the risk of endometrial cancer by as much as 40 percent. A second study finds breast cancer patients who exercise have a better chance of surviving.
And those findings strengthen the belief that exercise can lower the risk of disease.
Honey also has some sweet health benefits. CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I like the story about honey. You know, for a long time, Egyptians used honey for all sorts of its medicinal properties.
And then it became an old wives' tale: did it work, did it not work? It was hard to know.
So now a new study, actually looking at the beneficial medicinal effects of honey.
The study goes like this. About 25 people were studied. They gave them either light honey or dark honey, four tablespoons and then measured antioxidant properties afterwards.
Here's what they found. There was an increase in both the cancer fighting and heart disease fighting antioxidants. Dark buckwheat honey, by the way, contained more of these antioxidant properties than the light buckwheat honey.
Now, does measuring the antioxidant properties in your blood actually translate to feeling better, to warding off heart disease and things like that? That's harder to know.
But this is yet another study actually measuring something that was long believed to be true.
Incidentally, studies like this did come out of the University of Illinois a couple of years ago. Another study now lending some evidence to the fact that honey could be beneficial.
Now, honey is not the cure all. There's all sorts of different fruits and vegetables that might give you those same antioxidant properties.
But if you're listening to this and you say, "You know what? I'm going to try this honey thing," then two tablespoons of dark buckwheat honey are probably going to be your biggest bang for the buck.
If you're looking for other foods, here's a list of some of the foods that do contain those antioxidants. We've talked about these before.
Red grapes, wine and juice, a lot of people know about that. Cocoa beans, apples and onions, as well. Those are going to be possibly good antioxidant foods as well.
Children under 1 should not eat honey. There's a concern about botulism in those children. So honey is not a good option for them. Don't go feeding it to young children. Also, remember that honey as another sweetener contains no fat but does still contain the calories, about 64 grams per tablespoon or so of honey.
Another sweetener, possibly, this one with some antioxidant properties as well.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, buying music from his purpleness. Rhonda Schaffler has a Napster alternative for Prince fans.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra. Prince has a new project. I'm going to tell you about it when CNN LIVE FROM rocks on, right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BRAEK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL FANNING, VOICE ACTOR: Shaggy?
MATTHEW LILLARD, ACTOR: We're screw-ups. I guess looking back, every time they made a plan we did screw it up somehow. I just never noticed before.
FANNING: Me neither.
LILLARD: There's got to be some way that we can prove that we actually belong in the game. We've got to do something totally unlike us. You know, Scoob, we could act like real detectives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Talk about a flashback. Guess who's top dog at the box office? "Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed" debuted at the top spot this weekend, taking in an estimated 30 million bucks. In second place was "Ladykillers," starring Tom Hanks, followed by "The Passion of the Christ," "Dawn of the Dead" and "Jersey Girl."
(STOCK REPORT)
PHILLIPS: Well, if your online personal ad has no personality and your photo isn't quite "genic," coming up next in the second hour of LIVE FROM, find out how to pump up your profile in the search for your dream guy or girl. Tips you won't want to miss, and all the news of the day. Right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Request rejected. A judge rules a corporate corruption case could go on after the media reveal a juror's identity.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Sean Callebs in Washington. We are paying more at the pump for gasoline. The summer vacation in the future. Is there any relief in sight?
PHILLIPS: Talk radio takes a turn to the left. The liberals go on the air. Will anyone listen?
And looking for love, but it's just not clicking for you? How to put some pep in your online personals.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
Up first this hour, faith and reason in the jury room. The judge in the long and twisting Tyco trial says the juror at the center of a bizarre controversy has promised to deliberate in good faith. So once again, she and her unhappy colleagues are trying to get past a poisonous deadlock and a reported gesture that, if real, would probably not be OK.
CNN's Allan Chernoff has the latest now from New York -- Allan.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, six months and counting. The jurors have been sitting her six months to the date right now, and they're going to continue.
The judge this morning deciding to deny the defense motion to declare a mistrial in this case, Judge Michael Obus saying that it would be inappropriate right now, and adding that what we read in the newspapers should not necessarily impact anything that happens here in the courtroom.
Over the weekend, newspapers here in New York, the "New York Post" as well as the Wall Street Journal Online, revealing the identity of juror No. 4, the woman who apparently is the holdout among the 12 men and women who are judging Dennis Kozlowski and Mark Swartz, the former top two executives of Tyco who are accused of looting the company to the tune of $600 million.
Judge Obus said in open court that he actually spoke with juror No. 4 and asked her, has anything that has happened thus far influenced you? Has it deterred you from being able to judge in good faith? She said, no, I can still deliberate in good faith. So, the judge is sending everybody back and the deliberations are ongoing right now.
I spoke to one of the defense attorneys. He said, this is unbelievable. I don't know if the case is going to end in one minute or if it's going to go on for another two weeks.
We've had repeated requests for the judge to declare a mistrial, and the judge over and over again has denied that request after six months. He clearly is hoping that we will get some resolution to this case. The defendants are charged with 13 counts of grand larceny -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Allen, could we see the word appeal?
CHERNOFF: Well, if the defendants are convicted, you can bet on that. No question that there will be appeals. And among the points to be raised by defense attorneys would be the fact that the identity of one of the jurors had been revealed in the media, et cetera.
But, would that actually be grounds for overturning the case? Well, in the past hour, I've spoken with three different attorneys, all veterans. And they all said, not necessarily, simply because this is speculation. We don't know exactly what the jurors were thinking. We don't know whether this has influenced their thinking at all.
So there is no reason to necessarily conclude that the process has been destroyed here, that the process has been tampered with -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Allan Chernoff live from New York, thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 29, 2004 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: Checking headlines at the half hour. Historic day for NATO. Today, President Bush is welcoming in seven former Soviet bloc countries NATO was initially established to defend itself from.
Those countries are Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. The expansion increases NATO membership from 19 countries to 26.
In northeastern Wisconsin, even some four-wheelers were getting swamped by floodwaters. Last week too much snow; this week, too much rain. The police chief in Anchiko (ph) says it's the worst flooding in 40 years. Homes and businesses have been evacuated and schools are closed today.
Age discrimination is on the docket at the Supreme Court. The justices have agreed to hear a Mississippi case that could make it harder to prove age discrimination on the job.
The case involves Jackson, Mississippi, police officers over age 40. They say their pay raises were proportionately smaller than younger officers.
French lawyer Jacques Verges says that he will lead an international team defending Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACQUES VERGES, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S LAWYER: The leaders of the coalition accuse him, which has the accusation of -- I read the newspaper, ears, broadcast, the main accusation is to have in his possession, to have had mass destruction weapons and eventually to have used them.
Who says this to him? The United States and England. And the man who was the representative for this bargain, for this market, for this deal is called Mr. Rumsfeld.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, you can see of that interview tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
U.S. law holds that all defendants are entitled to a fair trial, even if you are Saddam Hussein. Joining us from New York to discuss defending Saddam, defense attorney Ron Kuby.
Hi, Ron.
RON KUBY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, how you doing?
PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, can Jacques Verges practice in Iraq?
KUBY: That's a great question, because right now Iraq is being run entirely by the American occupational authority. There is no functioning judicial system. And the tribunals that will ultimately try Saddam Hussein hasn't been formed.
But in first impression, you don't have a right to practice law in a foreign country. I'm here in New York. I don't have the right to practice law in New Jersey without the approval of New Jersey authorities.
PHILLIPS: Well, and Saddam has not even been formally charged. So what kind of access would he have to Saddam right now, and if and when Saddam is charged, then what type of access could he have, let's say, of course, if he could practice in Iraq?
KUBY: Well, you know, part of the problem is we're talking about a judicial system that doesn't exist and laws that have not yet been made.
But as a general matter, Saddam Hussein enjoys prisoner of war status. And as a POW, who may be charged with a war crime or a crime against humanity, he should have some access to counsel. But it's entirely at the discretion of the American occupation authority.
PHILLIPS: So let me ask you two questions. No. 1, would you defend Saddam Hussein?
KUBY: I'm sort of busy these days, but you mean in theory.
PHILLIPS: I know the people you've defended. I want a short answer.
KUBY: OK. Yes.
PHILLIPS: You would?
KUBY: Yes, I would. And I'll tell you why. I think it is creditably important that every defendant get a fair trial.
And we've already seen a nation misled, driven into war based on totally false allegations, allegations that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction; he was prepared to use them against the United States; that he had links to al Qaeda and possible complicity in September 11.
All of those accusation were made by high administration officials. None of them were true.
Now the irony is that you don't need truth to go to war. War is an active state, not an evidentiary act. But truth should have a place in a courtroom, and the government should be required to prove these allegations if proof they have.
PHILLIPS: Ron, how would you defend a man -- just imagine the witnesses that would come forward from the gassing of the Kurds, the gassing of the Iranian military, the torture tapes.
I mean, I could just imagine the slew of witnesses that would come forward and tell you their personal testimony of how Saddam Hussein affected him, her, and their families.
KUBY: But, of course, there is no proof from those eyewitnesses, those who felt the sting of the regime. There is no proof that Saddam Hussein actually ordered or agreed with these particular acts, just as President Bush is not responsible for every act of police misconduct in the United States or every criminal act that an American soldier commits.
So you actually have to prove that Saddam Hussein either personally did something or gave orders allowing other people to do that on his authority.
PHILLIPS: What about the mass graves? The mass gravesites? Soldiers already have come forward and talked about ordered they received from Saddam Hussein.
KUBY: You always have lower ranking people claiming that they received orders from higher-ranking people. You don't yet have any proof Saddam Hussein gave orders, except with one exception.
And that's in the Iran/on Iraq war, where gas indeed was used against Iranians. I don't know that that constitutes a crime under Iraqi law, but I do know that the United States government was complicit in those gas attacks, actually provided targeting and other information.
That one U.S. general -- because we were supporting Saddam Hussein at the time. People need to remember that then, he was still evil, but he was better than the evil Iranians who we were opposed to after the hostage takeover in 1979.
One American general actually came forward and said, "Look, it didn't matter whether Saddam Hussein killed the Iranians with machine gun bullets or with FASG (ph). The important thing is that he kills them."
PHILLIPS: I guess anything is possible. But is it possible that Saddam Hussein could walk the streets again, could be a free man?
KUBY: You know, the irony of that is that this trial is incredibly important to the United States, because as the other rationales for war have evaporated, the Bush administration has clung to the notion that, look, Saddam Hussein is a terrible person. He did horrible things. The world is better off without him, and the cost, the terrible cost of civilian deaths and American soldiers was worth that price.
He has to prove that in court that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, do these things. But it can't appear to be a kangaroo court. It can't appear to be another mockery or a sham trial. Otherwise you will lose any credibility you hoped to gain from the proceedings in the first place.
PHILLIPS: Now for someone that has just come on and told you would definitely take this case and defend Saddam Hussein, would this -- or will this case be worth it? You know, somebody...
KUBY: It's a real career booster, let me tell you. Even as we speak, people are calling me on the phone up to congratulate me.
PHILLIPS: You're going to get phone calls, e-mails. You're going to get death threats. You're going down.
KUBY: This is great. My wife is going to love it. My kids.
PHILLIPS: I just ruined your life.
KUBY: Please.
PHILLIPS: No. Will this be worth it? You know, there's been so much talk about, all right, why didn't Saddam Hussein just get taken out in that spider hole?
Should this go to the courts? Should there be a fair trial? Should all of this happen in whatever way it will happen?
Is it worth it from a humanitarian standpoint? Is it worth it from a legal standpoint? Is it worth it from a kind of a personal standpoint for those who lived under his regime?
KOBY: You know, having watched while the nation was driven to war based on misinformation, false accusation and lies, I think the highest obligation a lawyer has, especially in this type of forum, is to make sure that, to the extent the government has proof, the government has to produce that proof in the crucible of the trial.
That's how we determine whether people are guilty and innocent, in accordance with the highest standards in which this nation was founded.
You know, the son of a Supreme Court justice actually defended accused Nazi saboteurs. He was an American military officer assigned to represent them in 1942. And he said that was the most valuable service he ever performed for his country.
PHILLIPS: Defense attorney Ron Kuby. Always an interesting interview with you, sir. Thank you very much. All right.
Political setback for Afghanistan. The country's landmark national elections are being postponed. Here's CNN's Nic Robertson with the reasons why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Signing up to vote: exactly what most Afghans have been failing to do since voter registration began four months ago.
Of 10 and a half million eligible adults, barely one in 10 have come forward, causing the government to push back June elections to September.
JEAN ARNAULT, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR AFGHANISTAN: The decision, indeed, is going to make, I think, everybody's life much easier. It will certainly allow the secretariat, the joint election management board to start preparing the holding of these elections.
I think it will also help political parties and candidates to now take -- have a better sense of what has to be accomplished between now and September.
ROBERTSON: Pressure now on the Afghan president to encourage participation in what for most is their first electoral experience.
HAMID KARZAI, AFGHANISTANI PRESIDENT: I would emphasize security for the Afghan people during the elections so that they can vote freely and of their choice in the elections.
ROBERTSON: Steps towards that improvement are already underway.
A pilot project to take heavy weapons and fighters away from former warlords is to be accelerated. Government officials are confident that by June all tanks, artillery and big guns will be corralled in compounds like this.
And 40,000 militia, belonging to regional power brokers, will be demobilized, undercutting their ability to stifle democracy and Kabul's authority.
(on camera) Creating outside confidence Afghanistan is on track to stability could be critical, ahead of this week's international donor's conference in Berlin. However, privately, many overseas officials here are skeptical the government can meet those demobilization deadlines.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: The grand jury taking up the Michael Jackson case is hearing evidence today. We're there live in just a moment.
And a 6-year-old girl is saved from pornographers. The amazing rescue coming up, more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go! Woo! Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: A little excited there. Great pictures of a tornado touchdown in Oklahoma. The twister reportedly tossed a car off the road before sweeping up other debris. No one was injured.
(WEATHER REPORT)
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PHILLIPS: Prosecutors making their case against pop star Michael Jackson. They're presenting evidence before a grand jury today in Santa Barbara, California. That's where we find CNN's Miguel Marquez.
Miguel, what's the latest?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is that the grand jury -- CNN has confirmed that the grand jurors will hear testimony today, tomorrow. They'll be off on Wednesday for a Caesar Chavez holiday and then they'll be back at work Thursday and Friday.
So with the exception of the holiday, they would be going five days a week, which is quite a bit for a grand jury, as I suppose, especially if they're going all day long.
The question is, just how much testimony and evidence are they going to see? Is it possible that there is just a whole lot of stuff out there?
The number of search warrants, 18 in all. It's a veritable ream of paperwork of the search warrants and the affidavits and the returns.
The first one started last year, November 17 at Neverland Ranch, Mr. Jackson's home. This latest one was at a Surguard storage facility in -- north of Los Angeles the beginning of this month.
So over the last few months they have taken all sorts of stuff from Mr. Jackson and his associates and his various properties. Thirty-two computers, over 100 videotapes and digital discs, and 506 pages of phone records, cell phone records. (AUDIO GAP)
It gives us some clue what investigators are searching for. That they are trying to establish a relationship between Mr. Jackson and others in unedited material, unedited raw videotape that they are looking for.
There's also a passage in that affidavit indicating that someone may have instructed a witness to put items in a safe deposit box, because they were concerned about a residence or property being searched.
Now one defense attorney I spoke to says that 18 search warrants seems excessive for this sort of case.
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ARTHUR BARENS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It tells me that they have a paucity of evidence here, and that they're throwing their net out as broadly as they can, trying to get anything they can that supports their position.
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MARQUEZ: Now, the other question is who will testify. Aside from the physical evidence they find or any videotape or documentation that they find, who will testify?
There are reports that the now 14-year-old accuser in this current case may testify at this case. That there's also reports the '93 accuser of Mr. Jackson may also testify, even though they settled that issue out of court.
Keep in mind, though, those individuals as principle witnesses don't necessarily have to testify at a grand jury proceeding. Detectives, doctors and others who talked to these alleged victims could testify on their behalf.
How long is this supposed to take? We understand up to -- around two weeks. The grand jury will hear evidence. And at that point, they will decide if Mr. Jackson should be charged on each and every charge the prosecution asks for.
Twelve of the 19 grand jurors have to vote to indict -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Miguel Marquez, thank you.
Well, they say it's the worse case they have ever seen. Canadian authorities now say they've saved a 6-year-old North Carolina girl from sexual abuse.
Toronto police found pictures of the girl on the Internet, then used some fancy detective work to identify her.
CTV's Peter Murphy has the story.
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PETER MURPHY, CTV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It all began early Sunday morning, November 30.
Detective Paul Gillespie is sent 450 horrendous pornographic images of a young child.
DET. BILL MCGARRY, TORONTO POLICE: One of the imagines of the 6- year-old girl from North Carolina had -- showed her with writings on her body that said, "Kill me; I'm a slut."
MURPHY: The images show the child being beaten, raped and held in a dog cage.
Seven officers of the child exploitation unit are mobilized to find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we all took a portion of the images, and we began going through each one meticulously.
MURPHY: Working almost around the clock, the officers focused in on a wristband on the child's arm, a badge on her Girl Scout uniform.
By Monday, they pinpoint the child's location: Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina. By Tuesday, working with the FBI they locate the girl's school. She is positively identified, then rescued.
Detective Bill McGarry is one of the officers who helped find the girl. He doesn't want his face to be clearly shown.
MCGARRY: When the FBI called us and let us know that they had positively identified the girl, you couldn't hear anything in this office for the shouts of joy.
MURPHY: Charged with child pornography is 41-year-old Brian Shellenberger (ph) of Raleigh, North Carolina. Father of three.
The family home is now empty and up for sale. Neighbors are very stunned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's shocking and it's very disturbing to think that someone that we lived next to for a number of years, someone who had family, would be involved in something like that.
MURPHY: Of the estimated 100,000 abused children worldwide who are victims of child pornography, fewer than 300 have been rescued.
HARVIN PITCH, BEYOND BORDERS: It's almost impossible to identify these children. On the Internet, they are anonymous.
MURPHY (on camera): Despite the remarkable success of this case, anti-porn advocates insist it still highlights the need for even more resources to be devoted to the fight against child pornography.
Peter Murphy, CTV News, Toronto.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Now to medical news, those hated household chores could add years to your life.
U.S. and Chinese researchers say walking and doing chores reduces the risk of endometrial cancer by as much as 40 percent. A second study finds breast cancer patients who exercise have a better chance of surviving.
And those findings strengthen the belief that exercise can lower the risk of disease.
Honey also has some sweet health benefits. CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains.
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DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I like the story about honey. You know, for a long time, Egyptians used honey for all sorts of its medicinal properties.
And then it became an old wives' tale: did it work, did it not work? It was hard to know.
So now a new study, actually looking at the beneficial medicinal effects of honey.
The study goes like this. About 25 people were studied. They gave them either light honey or dark honey, four tablespoons and then measured antioxidant properties afterwards.
Here's what they found. There was an increase in both the cancer fighting and heart disease fighting antioxidants. Dark buckwheat honey, by the way, contained more of these antioxidant properties than the light buckwheat honey.
Now, does measuring the antioxidant properties in your blood actually translate to feeling better, to warding off heart disease and things like that? That's harder to know.
But this is yet another study actually measuring something that was long believed to be true.
Incidentally, studies like this did come out of the University of Illinois a couple of years ago. Another study now lending some evidence to the fact that honey could be beneficial.
Now, honey is not the cure all. There's all sorts of different fruits and vegetables that might give you those same antioxidant properties.
But if you're listening to this and you say, "You know what? I'm going to try this honey thing," then two tablespoons of dark buckwheat honey are probably going to be your biggest bang for the buck.
If you're looking for other foods, here's a list of some of the foods that do contain those antioxidants. We've talked about these before.
Red grapes, wine and juice, a lot of people know about that. Cocoa beans, apples and onions, as well. Those are going to be possibly good antioxidant foods as well.
Children under 1 should not eat honey. There's a concern about botulism in those children. So honey is not a good option for them. Don't go feeding it to young children. Also, remember that honey as another sweetener contains no fat but does still contain the calories, about 64 grams per tablespoon or so of honey.
Another sweetener, possibly, this one with some antioxidant properties as well.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
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PHILLIPS: Well, buying music from his purpleness. Rhonda Schaffler has a Napster alternative for Prince fans.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra. Prince has a new project. I'm going to tell you about it when CNN LIVE FROM rocks on, right after this break.
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NEIL FANNING, VOICE ACTOR: Shaggy?
MATTHEW LILLARD, ACTOR: We're screw-ups. I guess looking back, every time they made a plan we did screw it up somehow. I just never noticed before.
FANNING: Me neither.
LILLARD: There's got to be some way that we can prove that we actually belong in the game. We've got to do something totally unlike us. You know, Scoob, we could act like real detectives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Talk about a flashback. Guess who's top dog at the box office? "Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed" debuted at the top spot this weekend, taking in an estimated 30 million bucks. In second place was "Ladykillers," starring Tom Hanks, followed by "The Passion of the Christ," "Dawn of the Dead" and "Jersey Girl."
(STOCK REPORT)
PHILLIPS: Well, if your online personal ad has no personality and your photo isn't quite "genic," coming up next in the second hour of LIVE FROM, find out how to pump up your profile in the search for your dream guy or girl. Tips you won't want to miss, and all the news of the day. Right after this.
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PHILLIPS: Request rejected. A judge rules a corporate corruption case could go on after the media reveal a juror's identity.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Sean Callebs in Washington. We are paying more at the pump for gasoline. The summer vacation in the future. Is there any relief in sight?
PHILLIPS: Talk radio takes a turn to the left. The liberals go on the air. Will anyone listen?
And looking for love, but it's just not clicking for you? How to put some pep in your online personals.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
Up first this hour, faith and reason in the jury room. The judge in the long and twisting Tyco trial says the juror at the center of a bizarre controversy has promised to deliberate in good faith. So once again, she and her unhappy colleagues are trying to get past a poisonous deadlock and a reported gesture that, if real, would probably not be OK.
CNN's Allan Chernoff has the latest now from New York -- Allan.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, six months and counting. The jurors have been sitting her six months to the date right now, and they're going to continue.
The judge this morning deciding to deny the defense motion to declare a mistrial in this case, Judge Michael Obus saying that it would be inappropriate right now, and adding that what we read in the newspapers should not necessarily impact anything that happens here in the courtroom.
Over the weekend, newspapers here in New York, the "New York Post" as well as the Wall Street Journal Online, revealing the identity of juror No. 4, the woman who apparently is the holdout among the 12 men and women who are judging Dennis Kozlowski and Mark Swartz, the former top two executives of Tyco who are accused of looting the company to the tune of $600 million.
Judge Obus said in open court that he actually spoke with juror No. 4 and asked her, has anything that has happened thus far influenced you? Has it deterred you from being able to judge in good faith? She said, no, I can still deliberate in good faith. So, the judge is sending everybody back and the deliberations are ongoing right now.
I spoke to one of the defense attorneys. He said, this is unbelievable. I don't know if the case is going to end in one minute or if it's going to go on for another two weeks.
We've had repeated requests for the judge to declare a mistrial, and the judge over and over again has denied that request after six months. He clearly is hoping that we will get some resolution to this case. The defendants are charged with 13 counts of grand larceny -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Allen, could we see the word appeal?
CHERNOFF: Well, if the defendants are convicted, you can bet on that. No question that there will be appeals. And among the points to be raised by defense attorneys would be the fact that the identity of one of the jurors had been revealed in the media, et cetera.
But, would that actually be grounds for overturning the case? Well, in the past hour, I've spoken with three different attorneys, all veterans. And they all said, not necessarily, simply because this is speculation. We don't know exactly what the jurors were thinking. We don't know whether this has influenced their thinking at all.
So there is no reason to necessarily conclude that the process has been destroyed here, that the process has been tampered with -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Allan Chernoff live from New York, thank you.
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