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Radical Cleric's Followers Taking Over Najaf; Bush Campaigns in Arkansas; ACLU Files Suit Over No-Fly List; Texas Case Raises Questions About Insanity Defense

Aired April 06, 2004 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: A classical showdown with a radical Shia cleric. Moqtada al-Sadr is a wanted man, linked to the murder of a fellow cleric last year. His followers, though, see him as a martyr.
They are now said to be converging on the holy city of Najaf and in control of parts of it. The cleric is believed to be in Najaf, as well.

For U.S. Marines, the challenge is Fallujah, a hotbed of anti- coalition sentiment and the scene of many deadly attacks.

The surging violence has proven to be especially bloody for coalition forces: 21 people dead in three days. Jim Clancy, near the frontlines in Baghdad -- Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, we're looking over the situation here tonight. And you've got a very confusing scene in an Najaf, the holy city for Shia Muslims in this country, the place where the Imam Ali Mosque is located.

We've also got fighting, had it overnight in Sadr City, as well as the situation that's ongoing, developing, in Fallujah, where U.S. Marines are trying to reassert their control.

Still today, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, tried to put the best face on it all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country. Of course, I know if you just report on those few places it does look chaotic.

Actually if you travel around the country -- and I was up north on two different trips last week -- what you find is a bustling economy, people driving around, people opening businesses, right and left. Unemployment has dropped to below 10 percent in the three major cities of the country. It was over 60 percent at liberation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: But some cities are more important than others. And in the overall scheme of things, when 60 percent of the population are Shia Muslims, one must say that an-Najaf is not just one of those places in the country. The scene there is one where Moqtada al-Sadr, the militant, young, Shia Muslim cleric who has defied the U.S. occupation and defied U.S. force, has holed up in his office, just a short distance away from the Imam Ali Mosque. He is said to be welcoming martyrdom.

He's laying down the terms to the United States. Moqtada al-Sadr says the U.S. must pull its forces -- and the coalition pull their forces out of population centers in Iraq. He says they must also release all prisoners. Otherwise, he will continue what he terms his uprising against the occupation.

The big question, how can the U.S. go into this holy city, to that site, so close to the Imam Ali Mosque, to prosecute a murder warrant against him? It's a very difficult situation.

We've talked to senior U.S. military officials today who told us that they consider Moqtada al-Sadr to be extremely unpredictable, unreliable. They believe that, in this kind of a circumstance, he could do almost anything. They're measuring their steps very carefully.

Measuring carefully as well in Fallujah, U.S. Marines under a barrage of rocket fire, rocket-propelled grenades being fired by insurgents in that city, in the heart of the Sunni Triangle, still moving in toward the city center from the outskirts from multiple directions, led by M1-A1 tanks.

No word of any casualties yet, but it is known several homes have been destroyed as the Marines took out sniper positions on the rooftops, using grenade launchers from their infantry vehicles, their fighting vehicles.

The situation there has been one in the last 24 hours where we have heard about mortar barrages coming from the insurgents. They have been battling the Marines all the way. But it appears that the Marines are establishing some measure of control in the city tonight.

We're getting very limited reports out of there. The whole area is shut off, to the news media included. We do have a pool that's feeding us that information. We're getting that bit by bit, Kyra.

So we've got a lot of developments here that are going on in terms of who's controlling what and also in terms of how serious the prospects are of a major showdown with this militant cleric.

PHILLIPS: Jim Clancy live from Baghdad, thank you.

And the sudden surge in violence is causing the Pentagon to take another look at its strengths and weaknesses. For more on that, Barbara Starr on duty at the Pentagon -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, indeed. Now, as the fighting goes on in Fallujah against the Sunnis, and there is additional violence and fighting, of course, with the Shia followers of this radical cleric, it is those Shia followers, it is that offensive issue, that is causing the Pentagon the most concern. They are extremely concerned about the possibility of growing strength, growing numbers, for the numbers of supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical cleric now believed to be in the holy city of Najaf.

And because of that, because of the possibility of continuing violence on that Shia front, the U.S. is looking at options of whether or not, down the road, there might be a necessity for more troops.

Now, just options, no decisions. Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld speaking earlier today, addressed this issue publicly for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: At the present time, we have about -- not 115,000, but something like 135,000 troops in the country. We are at an unusually high level. And I -- the commanders are using the excess of forces that happen to be in there because of the deployment process. They will decide what they need, and they'll get what they need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld also being quite firm on the issue of turnover. The upcoming June 30 date for turning political sovereignty back to the Iraqis, the secretary saying the Bush administration will stick with that plan. Political sovereignty will be turned over.

But that, of course he says, U.S. forces will remain and handle the security situation for some time to come -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr, live from the Pentagon, thank you.

And here at home, the secretary of homeland security is calling on the private sector to help with the war on terrorism. Tom Ridge says Uncle Sam can't afford to pay for all the security needed to protect U.S. ports. July 1 is the deadline for ports and shipping companies to have their new security programs in place or face fines.

The federal government is spending nearly $3 billion on security programs this year.

The renewed violence in Iraq and the economy are occupying President Bush's time today. He's in El Dorado, Arkansas, a city hard hit by plant closings and unemployment.

Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we have learned by administration sources that British Prime Minister Tony Blair is going to be meeting with President Bush next Friday -- that is April 16 -- at the White House.

We're told it's a meeting that was set up weeks ago. It is not in response to the turmoil that we've seen in Iran and Iraq over the last 72 hours.

But having said that, administration sources say that this is going to be a top priority for these two leaders in their talks. They're going to talk about the strategy to turn over power back to the Iraqi people. They're going to talk about the need to work with the United Nations to come up with a workable, governing body inside of Iraq. And also the importance of sticking with that June 30 deadline.

President Bush talked about the administration's strategy in general terms earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATS: Not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom. Because you know what? We understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Now, Kyra, there is a debate that's taking place. Why not extend that June 30 deadline, considering the dangerous situation on the ground? Administration sources I spoke with say, first and foremost, the reason why is the Iraqi people want that June 30 deadline.

Secondly, that the coalition said it would stick by it; it's a matter of credibility.

But there are other important reasons. They say that they want to put an international face on this transformation, that it has an American face on it now. Some believe that the American presence in and of itself may be inciting the violence.

And third, they say this say political transition. It is not a military one. Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today saying this does not mean there will be a stand down of troops, of military. In fact, there will be a U.S. presence there for some time -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, from El Dorado, Arkansas, thank you.

And while the president is there, Democrat John Kerry is talking tough about the economy as he visits the lions' den. He's in the Republican stronghold state of Ohio.

Kerry was outlining his ideas for invigorating of the economy. They include a plan that Kerry says will create 10 million new jobs.

And he's not letting up on his criticism of President Bush. His campaign has launched a new web -- web ad, rather, lampooning the president's economic ideas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, it looks like you're having a little trouble with your math.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your budget numbers don't add up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they're close enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, you've overspent by $6 trillion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, is that a lot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, yes, it is. OK, here...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The ads say reckless budgeting has forced states to raise taxes while cutting services.

Ralph Nader is visiting Chicago today, but he'll probably make a return trip to Oregon before November. Election officials there say that fewer than 800 people turned out to sign petitions at a gathering in the Portland Theater. Nader needed at least 1,000 supporters in one place to sign petitions to get on the presidential ballot. Aides say he will return and try again.

Moms and murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEANNA LANEY, ACQUITTED OF MURDERING HER SONS: And I concluded that I was going to have to kill my family with a rock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Two Texas cases, two different outcomes raise questions about insanity as a defense for murder charges.

Securing the skies. Travelers on a terrorist threat list say the government needs to back off.

And fretting about those fries? They come with a warning about cancer? We'll super size that one, just ahead on LIVE FROM.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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PHILLIPS: Imagine being told that you can never travel on a U.S. airliner again. It's reality for some Americans on the TSA's no-fly list. Now the American Civil Liberties Union says the list contains mistakes, and it's suing. Jeanne Meserve is in Washington with the details of this legal challenge. Jeanne, tell us how it works.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, the plaintiffs in this case don't say that they will never be able to fly again. That's not what's being alleged here.

The American Civil Liberties Union is filing what it's calling the first ever class action challenge to the government no-fly list, that list intended to keep terrorists off aircraft.

But the suit alleges that hundreds if not thousands of innocent passengers have been stopped, questioned and searched.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): Security enhancements since 9/11 have meant security hassles for many travelers at the nation's airports. But David Fathi believes he's had more trouble than most, because his name appears on a government no-fly list.

DAVID FATHI, PLAINTIFF: I have been led away by police. I have been threatened with indefinite detention. I've had an officer tell another officer to put me in handcuffs and take me away.

MESERVE: But Fathi isn't a terrorist or a criminal. He's a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union with an Iranian last name. And today he became one of seven plaintiffs in an ACLU class action lawsuit that says the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration should be required to maintain an accurate no-fly list that does not result in stigmatization, interrogation, delay, enhanced searches and tension for innocent passengers.

REGGIE SHUFORD, ACLU: We have no problem with the government doing whatever it can to make us safe. We support those efforts wholeheartedly. But the caveat that it has to be done in the way that does not trump our -- or trample upon constitutional rights.

MESERVE: Though none of the plaintiffs was ultimately prevented from flying, the suit says they suffered significant embarrassment and humiliation and cannot check in using the Internet or e-ticket kiosks.

None of the plaintiffs know why they're on a no-fly list, and many say they've been unsuccessful in getting removed. David Fathi tried, even got a letter from the TSA say he is not a security risk, but it hasn't helped.

FATHI: If anything I get stopped more often since receiving my letter of clearance than before.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: An administration official acknowledges that the no-fly list is not perfect, and the government wants to replace it with what it maintains will be a more refined system, a system which, by the way, the ACLU also opposes.

As for the ACLU suit filed today, it has just been filed. No reaction yet from the Transportation Security Administration -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, Jeanne, first of all, I want to apologize. The writer got that introduction completely wrong. It's not true. You will be able to travel on the airlines again.

So let me follow up with that.

Once you're on that list, and you go back and forth like Mr. Fathi, what does he have to do -- you said it's tough to get off that list -- but what does he have to do now? Does he have to file paperwork? Does he have to go meet with immigration? I mean, it must be a nightmare to try and prove that, hey, I'm a good person, I should be able to fly and not get hassled.

MESERVE: Well, the protest and procedure, he says, has varied each time he's flown. Sometimes it's been a matter of 45 minutes to straighten it out. Sometimes it takes longer that that.

And it doesn't happen every time he flies. He says it happens one out of three times, maybe one out of four times. He says that calls into question the validity of the no-fly list. If it's being used effectively in a screening effort to pass every passenger, why isn't he stopped each and every time he flies?

It's a very interesting question. We don't have the answers yet from the Transportation Security Administration.

PHILLIPS: Well, we're going to debate it and talk about it more in the next hour. Jeanne Meserve from Washington, thanks so much.

Other news across American now.

Flash floods take a deadly toll in west Texas. Five people killed on a detour route after this bridge was washed out along Interstate 20 near Pecos. Meanwhile, at least two dozen died when a flash flood struck the Mexico border city of Piedras Negras. A slow- moving storm dumped up to four inches of rain an hour in some of those places.

In Spokane, Washington, two men hospitalized in critical condition after their car goes airborne and lands inside someone's living room. Police say the car was stolen and probably hit speeds topping 70 miles per hour before the crash.. No one inside that building was hurt.

And in Inglewood, California, voters will decide whether to allow a Wal-Mart store in their neighborhood. The city council had already given a thumbs down to the plan, but Wal-Mart collected more than 10,000 signatures to force today's ballot initiative. Inglewood's mayor supports Wal-Mart. Local businesses do not.

Now to Texas and two similar cases of mothers charged with murdering their own children. But juries came to different conclusions.

Brian Todd on the same -- or some of those reasons why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two disturbed mothers; both kill their own children with their own hands. Seven innocent lives taken. The reasons, seemingly only in the mothers' minds.

LANEY: And I concluded that I was going to have to kill my family with a rock.

TODD: Eerie similarities, but opposite verdicts in the cases of Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney.

Yates drowns her five children in the family bathtub. Laney bludgeons two of her sons to death with a rock, a third son seriously injured. Both crimes committed in Texas. Both mothers plead insanity.

LANEY: I feel like that I obeyed God, and I believe that there will be good out of this.

TODD: Deanna Laney's plea and testimony are effective.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty by reason of insanity.

TODD: But in the Andrea Yates' case, the jury doesn't buy it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty of capital murder as charged in the indictment.

TODD: Why will one mother walk into a mental hospital and possibly walk free one day, while the other sits in prison for life?

PAUL ROTHSTEIN, PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER: The psychiatric testimony is the whole thing in these insanity cases.

TODD: In fact, a psychiatrist may have made the crucial difference. In the Laney case, every expert, including a key forensic psychiatrist hired by the prosecution, testified Deanna Laney was insane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She believed this was a trial by God and that after killing the children they would be resurrected.

TODD: That same psychiatrist, Dr. Park Dietz, testified in Andrea Yates' trial that Yates was not insane.

Yates' attorney, George Parnham, who also consulted with Deanna Laney's defense team, told us Dr. Dietz' reasoning was since Yates' claim the devil was living inside her, she could recognize evil, therefore knew right from wrong.

We tried to reach Dr. Dietz today. He was unable for comment. Another possible difference, prosecutors in the Laney trial did not seek the death penalty. In the Yates trial, they did. Legal experts say jurors qualified to give the death penalty are generally less sympathetic to the insanity defense.

Overall, the jury is, as always, a critical factor, according to the experts.

ROTHSTEIN: Their life experiences, how they view certain things morally, what views they bring with them to the courtroom, are very much involved in these kinds of judgments.

TODD: Even technically, experts say, two different juries can see identical evidence in identical cases and reach different conclusions.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Battling a hornets' nest. U.S. forces trying to quash violent rebellion in Iraq. Will it be secure enough to govern itself. We'll go in depth.

Faxes, smaxes. While you're sweating the deadline, some Americans are getting off scot-free.

And if the shoe doesn't fit -- going under the knife to get into the summer strappies. We'll try that on for size, later on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Celebrations at the University of Connecticut for their national championship men's basketball team.

U-Conn was able to hoist the trophy after dominating performance on the court. The Huskies led Georgia Tech from the outset and powered their way to an 83-72 victory. And to the victors go the nets.

Back on campus, U-Conn fans celebrated the win. After the game, thousands of people marched in the streets. Police arrested 35 people after some of those celebrations got out of hand.

And the party could continue tonight. The Lady Huskies are hoping they'll be top dog. But first they have to play the Lady Volunteers of Tennessee for the women's championship title tonight in New Orleans.

Connecticut is looking for a hat trick, seeking a third straight title. And if the women win it will be the first time one school's men and women won the title in the same year.

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Aired April 6, 2004 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: A classical showdown with a radical Shia cleric. Moqtada al-Sadr is a wanted man, linked to the murder of a fellow cleric last year. His followers, though, see him as a martyr.
They are now said to be converging on the holy city of Najaf and in control of parts of it. The cleric is believed to be in Najaf, as well.

For U.S. Marines, the challenge is Fallujah, a hotbed of anti- coalition sentiment and the scene of many deadly attacks.

The surging violence has proven to be especially bloody for coalition forces: 21 people dead in three days. Jim Clancy, near the frontlines in Baghdad -- Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, we're looking over the situation here tonight. And you've got a very confusing scene in an Najaf, the holy city for Shia Muslims in this country, the place where the Imam Ali Mosque is located.

We've also got fighting, had it overnight in Sadr City, as well as the situation that's ongoing, developing, in Fallujah, where U.S. Marines are trying to reassert their control.

Still today, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, tried to put the best face on it all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country. Of course, I know if you just report on those few places it does look chaotic.

Actually if you travel around the country -- and I was up north on two different trips last week -- what you find is a bustling economy, people driving around, people opening businesses, right and left. Unemployment has dropped to below 10 percent in the three major cities of the country. It was over 60 percent at liberation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: But some cities are more important than others. And in the overall scheme of things, when 60 percent of the population are Shia Muslims, one must say that an-Najaf is not just one of those places in the country. The scene there is one where Moqtada al-Sadr, the militant, young, Shia Muslim cleric who has defied the U.S. occupation and defied U.S. force, has holed up in his office, just a short distance away from the Imam Ali Mosque. He is said to be welcoming martyrdom.

He's laying down the terms to the United States. Moqtada al-Sadr says the U.S. must pull its forces -- and the coalition pull their forces out of population centers in Iraq. He says they must also release all prisoners. Otherwise, he will continue what he terms his uprising against the occupation.

The big question, how can the U.S. go into this holy city, to that site, so close to the Imam Ali Mosque, to prosecute a murder warrant against him? It's a very difficult situation.

We've talked to senior U.S. military officials today who told us that they consider Moqtada al-Sadr to be extremely unpredictable, unreliable. They believe that, in this kind of a circumstance, he could do almost anything. They're measuring their steps very carefully.

Measuring carefully as well in Fallujah, U.S. Marines under a barrage of rocket fire, rocket-propelled grenades being fired by insurgents in that city, in the heart of the Sunni Triangle, still moving in toward the city center from the outskirts from multiple directions, led by M1-A1 tanks.

No word of any casualties yet, but it is known several homes have been destroyed as the Marines took out sniper positions on the rooftops, using grenade launchers from their infantry vehicles, their fighting vehicles.

The situation there has been one in the last 24 hours where we have heard about mortar barrages coming from the insurgents. They have been battling the Marines all the way. But it appears that the Marines are establishing some measure of control in the city tonight.

We're getting very limited reports out of there. The whole area is shut off, to the news media included. We do have a pool that's feeding us that information. We're getting that bit by bit, Kyra.

So we've got a lot of developments here that are going on in terms of who's controlling what and also in terms of how serious the prospects are of a major showdown with this militant cleric.

PHILLIPS: Jim Clancy live from Baghdad, thank you.

And the sudden surge in violence is causing the Pentagon to take another look at its strengths and weaknesses. For more on that, Barbara Starr on duty at the Pentagon -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, indeed. Now, as the fighting goes on in Fallujah against the Sunnis, and there is additional violence and fighting, of course, with the Shia followers of this radical cleric, it is those Shia followers, it is that offensive issue, that is causing the Pentagon the most concern. They are extremely concerned about the possibility of growing strength, growing numbers, for the numbers of supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical cleric now believed to be in the holy city of Najaf.

And because of that, because of the possibility of continuing violence on that Shia front, the U.S. is looking at options of whether or not, down the road, there might be a necessity for more troops.

Now, just options, no decisions. Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld speaking earlier today, addressed this issue publicly for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: At the present time, we have about -- not 115,000, but something like 135,000 troops in the country. We are at an unusually high level. And I -- the commanders are using the excess of forces that happen to be in there because of the deployment process. They will decide what they need, and they'll get what they need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld also being quite firm on the issue of turnover. The upcoming June 30 date for turning political sovereignty back to the Iraqis, the secretary saying the Bush administration will stick with that plan. Political sovereignty will be turned over.

But that, of course he says, U.S. forces will remain and handle the security situation for some time to come -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr, live from the Pentagon, thank you.

And here at home, the secretary of homeland security is calling on the private sector to help with the war on terrorism. Tom Ridge says Uncle Sam can't afford to pay for all the security needed to protect U.S. ports. July 1 is the deadline for ports and shipping companies to have their new security programs in place or face fines.

The federal government is spending nearly $3 billion on security programs this year.

The renewed violence in Iraq and the economy are occupying President Bush's time today. He's in El Dorado, Arkansas, a city hard hit by plant closings and unemployment.

Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we have learned by administration sources that British Prime Minister Tony Blair is going to be meeting with President Bush next Friday -- that is April 16 -- at the White House.

We're told it's a meeting that was set up weeks ago. It is not in response to the turmoil that we've seen in Iran and Iraq over the last 72 hours.

But having said that, administration sources say that this is going to be a top priority for these two leaders in their talks. They're going to talk about the strategy to turn over power back to the Iraqi people. They're going to talk about the need to work with the United Nations to come up with a workable, governing body inside of Iraq. And also the importance of sticking with that June 30 deadline.

President Bush talked about the administration's strategy in general terms earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATS: Not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom. Because you know what? We understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Now, Kyra, there is a debate that's taking place. Why not extend that June 30 deadline, considering the dangerous situation on the ground? Administration sources I spoke with say, first and foremost, the reason why is the Iraqi people want that June 30 deadline.

Secondly, that the coalition said it would stick by it; it's a matter of credibility.

But there are other important reasons. They say that they want to put an international face on this transformation, that it has an American face on it now. Some believe that the American presence in and of itself may be inciting the violence.

And third, they say this say political transition. It is not a military one. Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today saying this does not mean there will be a stand down of troops, of military. In fact, there will be a U.S. presence there for some time -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, from El Dorado, Arkansas, thank you.

And while the president is there, Democrat John Kerry is talking tough about the economy as he visits the lions' den. He's in the Republican stronghold state of Ohio.

Kerry was outlining his ideas for invigorating of the economy. They include a plan that Kerry says will create 10 million new jobs.

And he's not letting up on his criticism of President Bush. His campaign has launched a new web -- web ad, rather, lampooning the president's economic ideas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, it looks like you're having a little trouble with your math.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your budget numbers don't add up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they're close enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, you've overspent by $6 trillion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, is that a lot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, yes, it is. OK, here...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The ads say reckless budgeting has forced states to raise taxes while cutting services.

Ralph Nader is visiting Chicago today, but he'll probably make a return trip to Oregon before November. Election officials there say that fewer than 800 people turned out to sign petitions at a gathering in the Portland Theater. Nader needed at least 1,000 supporters in one place to sign petitions to get on the presidential ballot. Aides say he will return and try again.

Moms and murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEANNA LANEY, ACQUITTED OF MURDERING HER SONS: And I concluded that I was going to have to kill my family with a rock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Two Texas cases, two different outcomes raise questions about insanity as a defense for murder charges.

Securing the skies. Travelers on a terrorist threat list say the government needs to back off.

And fretting about those fries? They come with a warning about cancer? We'll super size that one, just ahead on LIVE FROM.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

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PHILLIPS: Imagine being told that you can never travel on a U.S. airliner again. It's reality for some Americans on the TSA's no-fly list. Now the American Civil Liberties Union says the list contains mistakes, and it's suing. Jeanne Meserve is in Washington with the details of this legal challenge. Jeanne, tell us how it works.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, the plaintiffs in this case don't say that they will never be able to fly again. That's not what's being alleged here.

The American Civil Liberties Union is filing what it's calling the first ever class action challenge to the government no-fly list, that list intended to keep terrorists off aircraft.

But the suit alleges that hundreds if not thousands of innocent passengers have been stopped, questioned and searched.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): Security enhancements since 9/11 have meant security hassles for many travelers at the nation's airports. But David Fathi believes he's had more trouble than most, because his name appears on a government no-fly list.

DAVID FATHI, PLAINTIFF: I have been led away by police. I have been threatened with indefinite detention. I've had an officer tell another officer to put me in handcuffs and take me away.

MESERVE: But Fathi isn't a terrorist or a criminal. He's a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union with an Iranian last name. And today he became one of seven plaintiffs in an ACLU class action lawsuit that says the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration should be required to maintain an accurate no-fly list that does not result in stigmatization, interrogation, delay, enhanced searches and tension for innocent passengers.

REGGIE SHUFORD, ACLU: We have no problem with the government doing whatever it can to make us safe. We support those efforts wholeheartedly. But the caveat that it has to be done in the way that does not trump our -- or trample upon constitutional rights.

MESERVE: Though none of the plaintiffs was ultimately prevented from flying, the suit says they suffered significant embarrassment and humiliation and cannot check in using the Internet or e-ticket kiosks.

None of the plaintiffs know why they're on a no-fly list, and many say they've been unsuccessful in getting removed. David Fathi tried, even got a letter from the TSA say he is not a security risk, but it hasn't helped.

FATHI: If anything I get stopped more often since receiving my letter of clearance than before.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: An administration official acknowledges that the no-fly list is not perfect, and the government wants to replace it with what it maintains will be a more refined system, a system which, by the way, the ACLU also opposes.

As for the ACLU suit filed today, it has just been filed. No reaction yet from the Transportation Security Administration -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, Jeanne, first of all, I want to apologize. The writer got that introduction completely wrong. It's not true. You will be able to travel on the airlines again.

So let me follow up with that.

Once you're on that list, and you go back and forth like Mr. Fathi, what does he have to do -- you said it's tough to get off that list -- but what does he have to do now? Does he have to file paperwork? Does he have to go meet with immigration? I mean, it must be a nightmare to try and prove that, hey, I'm a good person, I should be able to fly and not get hassled.

MESERVE: Well, the protest and procedure, he says, has varied each time he's flown. Sometimes it's been a matter of 45 minutes to straighten it out. Sometimes it takes longer that that.

And it doesn't happen every time he flies. He says it happens one out of three times, maybe one out of four times. He says that calls into question the validity of the no-fly list. If it's being used effectively in a screening effort to pass every passenger, why isn't he stopped each and every time he flies?

It's a very interesting question. We don't have the answers yet from the Transportation Security Administration.

PHILLIPS: Well, we're going to debate it and talk about it more in the next hour. Jeanne Meserve from Washington, thanks so much.

Other news across American now.

Flash floods take a deadly toll in west Texas. Five people killed on a detour route after this bridge was washed out along Interstate 20 near Pecos. Meanwhile, at least two dozen died when a flash flood struck the Mexico border city of Piedras Negras. A slow- moving storm dumped up to four inches of rain an hour in some of those places.

In Spokane, Washington, two men hospitalized in critical condition after their car goes airborne and lands inside someone's living room. Police say the car was stolen and probably hit speeds topping 70 miles per hour before the crash.. No one inside that building was hurt.

And in Inglewood, California, voters will decide whether to allow a Wal-Mart store in their neighborhood. The city council had already given a thumbs down to the plan, but Wal-Mart collected more than 10,000 signatures to force today's ballot initiative. Inglewood's mayor supports Wal-Mart. Local businesses do not.

Now to Texas and two similar cases of mothers charged with murdering their own children. But juries came to different conclusions.

Brian Todd on the same -- or some of those reasons why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two disturbed mothers; both kill their own children with their own hands. Seven innocent lives taken. The reasons, seemingly only in the mothers' minds.

LANEY: And I concluded that I was going to have to kill my family with a rock.

TODD: Eerie similarities, but opposite verdicts in the cases of Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney.

Yates drowns her five children in the family bathtub. Laney bludgeons two of her sons to death with a rock, a third son seriously injured. Both crimes committed in Texas. Both mothers plead insanity.

LANEY: I feel like that I obeyed God, and I believe that there will be good out of this.

TODD: Deanna Laney's plea and testimony are effective.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty by reason of insanity.

TODD: But in the Andrea Yates' case, the jury doesn't buy it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty of capital murder as charged in the indictment.

TODD: Why will one mother walk into a mental hospital and possibly walk free one day, while the other sits in prison for life?

PAUL ROTHSTEIN, PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER: The psychiatric testimony is the whole thing in these insanity cases.

TODD: In fact, a psychiatrist may have made the crucial difference. In the Laney case, every expert, including a key forensic psychiatrist hired by the prosecution, testified Deanna Laney was insane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She believed this was a trial by God and that after killing the children they would be resurrected.

TODD: That same psychiatrist, Dr. Park Dietz, testified in Andrea Yates' trial that Yates was not insane.

Yates' attorney, George Parnham, who also consulted with Deanna Laney's defense team, told us Dr. Dietz' reasoning was since Yates' claim the devil was living inside her, she could recognize evil, therefore knew right from wrong.

We tried to reach Dr. Dietz today. He was unable for comment. Another possible difference, prosecutors in the Laney trial did not seek the death penalty. In the Yates trial, they did. Legal experts say jurors qualified to give the death penalty are generally less sympathetic to the insanity defense.

Overall, the jury is, as always, a critical factor, according to the experts.

ROTHSTEIN: Their life experiences, how they view certain things morally, what views they bring with them to the courtroom, are very much involved in these kinds of judgments.

TODD: Even technically, experts say, two different juries can see identical evidence in identical cases and reach different conclusions.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Battling a hornets' nest. U.S. forces trying to quash violent rebellion in Iraq. Will it be secure enough to govern itself. We'll go in depth.

Faxes, smaxes. While you're sweating the deadline, some Americans are getting off scot-free.

And if the shoe doesn't fit -- going under the knife to get into the summer strappies. We'll try that on for size, later on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Celebrations at the University of Connecticut for their national championship men's basketball team.

U-Conn was able to hoist the trophy after dominating performance on the court. The Huskies led Georgia Tech from the outset and powered their way to an 83-72 victory. And to the victors go the nets.

Back on campus, U-Conn fans celebrated the win. After the game, thousands of people marched in the streets. Police arrested 35 people after some of those celebrations got out of hand.

And the party could continue tonight. The Lady Huskies are hoping they'll be top dog. But first they have to play the Lady Volunteers of Tennessee for the women's championship title tonight in New Orleans.

Connecticut is looking for a hat trick, seeking a third straight title. And if the women win it will be the first time one school's men and women won the title in the same year.

(STOCK REPORT)

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