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Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani Supporting al-Sadr? Tony Blair to Visit White House
Aired April 06, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CLANCY: ...fascinated the rival Shia Muslim cleric Abdul Majid al-Khoei. Al-Khoei was backed by the United States.
On another front in Fallujah, U.S. Marines have now entered the city itself. For the last 48 hours they have been ringed around the city trading mortar and machine gun fire with insurgents inside Fallujah in the very heart of the Sunni Triangle. The residents of Fallujah, mostly shuttered indoors this day, as M1A1 Abrams tanks rolled into the city with infantry behind.
According to pool reports that are coming to us out of Fallujah, there were rocket launchers that were used against those tanks and against the U.S. forces as they came in, a barrage of that, at the same time some houses destroyed as the U.S. took countermeasures against snipers that had been sighted on rooftops.
So, we have a situation here, a very fluid situation but in some ways a very dangerous one from this occupation. After all, we are only 85 days away from a hand over of power. Tonight, many Iraqis may think that they are less secure, certainly less certain of their future as a result of all of this violence as in any time during the last year.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Sadr's spokesperson says the wanted cleric is being supported by other religious leaders including GRAND AYATOLLAH ALI SISTANI. He's a Shia spiritual leader in Iraq who in the past has been at odds with the more radical Sadr.
"Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid has observed both men. Here's his take.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY SHADID, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Sistani's influence far overshadows Sadr's. Sistani is an extremely respected cleric and is in his 70s. He by far commands the greatest following in Iraq. Sadr has often in public deferred to him. He understands Sistani's authority and he's been reluctant to come out and criticize him or attack him publicly.
Beneath the surface, though, you do see a pretty intense rivalry between the two figures, a different philosophy of what the clergy should -- the role the clergy should play in Iraq and also a different philosophy on what shapes the clergy. Is it Arab or is it Iranian? Is it nationalist or is it more religious?
It dates back to a rivalry between actually Sadr's father and Sistani. Sadr's father was a revered ayatollah who competed with Sistani for power and that rivalry has kind of carried over into Sadr's movement that emerged after the war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And Sadr has made no secret of the fact that he wants to share power in the new Iraq.
Well, they have a warrant. They know where he is. So, what are coalition troops waiting for?
CNN's Barbara Starr is back to talk Pentagon strategy for nabbing Sadr -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, let's lay it all out for everybody. Now as the fighting continues in Fallujah against radical Sunni elements there, Marines are encircling that town continuing to move in, by all accounts encountering heavy resistance, a lot of action there but that is, in fact, just half the problem.
In fact, it turns out that the Shia insurgency by the followers of Moqtada al-Sadr is now really the top concern by Pentagon officials. They are watching this insurgency grow. They are increasingly concerned about the violence now spreading across several cities by his insurgents.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today, for the first time, started talking since the violent outbreaks over the last few days about whether or not more troops are needed to deal with the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Both the president and I frequently ask the military commanders if they have all they need, if they have what they need, not just in people but equipment and support. And General Abizaid has the ultimate responsibility, General Sanchez is the senior military person on the ground in Iraq and they are the ones whose advice we follow on these things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Now no decision yet, of course, by the Pentagon about whether more troops are needed but what's the bottom line? Why don't they just move in, arrest the cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and put his militia out of business?
Well, officials say that's going to be very tough to do. Again, as Jim Clancy reports, he is apparently by all accounts holed up in the holy city of Najaf. U.S. troops would be extremely reluctant to go in there. It would be an affront to the Shia Muslims, so they are not likely to enter that city to try and prosecute that arrest warrant against him. They are also concerned that if they do arrest him they will simply raise his profile, that he will be able to gather more supporters in the streets of Iraq and the violence will only increase, So the word around here very slow, very deliberate in taking any action against Muqtada al-Sadr -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr live from the Pentagon thank you.
President Bush has hit the road again today to try to sell more voters on his economic ideas. He also addressed the situation in Iraq.
CNN's Suzanne Malveaux traveled to the president's speech in El Dorado, Arkansas -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, administration sources tell us that British Prime Minister Tony Blair is going to be meeting with President Bush. This is next Friday, April 16th at the White House. This is a meeting that was set up weeks ago. It is not in response to the kind of chaos and turmoil we've heard, we've seen on the ground in Iraq over the last 72 hours but having said that, administration sources say this is definitely going to be priority number one between the two leaders and their talk.
They're going to talk about the strategy to turn over power to the Iraqi people, the importance of working with the United Nations to come up with a workable governing body inside of Iraq that can handle that job and also the importance of meeting that June 30 deadline. That is something that both administrations feel is important. That is something that they have given their word to.
President Bush earlier today speaking in general terms about the administration's strategy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will pass sovereignty on June 30. We'll stay the course in Iraq. We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom because you know what, we understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful. That's what we understand in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, of course, there has been a debate over whether or not to extend that June 30 deadline. I've been speaking with administration officials and they lay it out this way. They say first and foremost the Iraqi people want it. They asked for that deadline. Secondly, the U.S. promised that it would deliver on that so it's a matter of credibility.
But two other reasons as well, they say they want this transformation really to have an international face, not an American face and there are even some who go further who say they believe American presence in Iraq even incites some of this violence, that it would be better to under the umbrella of the U.N. move as quickly as possible in internationalizing the effort.
And finally they say that June 30 deadline is really, it's a political deadline. It's turning over the political power certainly not the military security situation. We heard earlier today from Secretary Rumsfeld who said that there is going to be a strong U.S. military presence inside of Iraq for a long time -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you.
Straight ahead, life and death issues in combat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After we killed him there was the question of was this guy a hostile person? You know should we have killed him? Should we have engaged him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: A CNN special report you won't want to miss this, engaging the enemy, the controversy surrounding these pictures in Iraq.
And passenger screening lists, are they unfair profiling or just a legit way to prevent terrorism in the air?
And later why J-Lo may be hitting her mom up for a little ching- ching, yes right. We'll we've got the story on one lucky lady who is very close to J-Lo.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER FORECAST)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, the Army has basically given him a clean slate but Muslim Army Chaplain James Yee had trouble clearing security at the airport and missed his flight home to Seattle.
He spent 76 days in custody after the military linked him to a possible espionage ring at Guantanamo Bay. The Army has now dropped most of those charges. He did finally make it home to his wife and daughter and will eventually resume his post at Fort Lewis.
In the wake of September 11th, air travel has gotten a lot more involved than it used to be, especially for some people.
CNN's Jeanne Meserve says a few are resorting to a lawsuit now to make it easier for them to be cleared for takeoff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Security enhancements since 9/11 have meant security hassles for many travelers at the nation's airports but David Fathi believes he's had more trouble than most because his name appears on a government no-fly list.
DAVID FATHI, PLAINTIFF: I have been led away by police. I have been threatened with indefinite detention. I've had an officer tell another officer to put me in handcuffs and take me away.
MESERVE: But Fathi isn't a terrorist or a criminal. He's a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union with an Iranian last name and today he became one of seven plaintiffs in an ACLU class action lawsuit that says the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration should be required to maintain an accurate no-fly list that does not result in stigmatization, interrogation, delay, enhanced searched and detention for innocent passengers.
REGGIE SHUFORD, ACLU ATTORNEY: We have no problem with the government doing whatever it can to make us safe. We support those efforts wholeheartedly with the caveat that it has to be done in a way that does not trump or trample upon constitutional rights.
MESERVE: Though none of the plaintiffs was ultimately prevented from flying, the suit says they suffered significant embarrassment and humiliation and cannot check in using the Internet or e-ticket kiosks.
None of the plaintiffs know why they're on a no-fly list and many say they've been unsuccessful in getting removed. David Fathi tried, even got a letter from the TSA saying he is not a security risk but it hasn't helped.
FATHI: If anything, I get stopped more often since receiving my letter of clearance than before.
MESERVE (on camera): A government official acknowledged that the no-fly list is not perfect and the government wants to replace it with what it maintains is a more refined system, as for the ACLU lawsuit no comment yet from the Transportation Security Administration.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Security versus civil liberties, it's proving to be a tough balancing act in the post-9/11 world. Is the no-fly list the best way to protect the flying public or is there a better option?
Here to talk about it, former FBI lead investigator Don Clark. I want to add too he's got a law degree so we can hit all areas here, Don, great to see you.
DON CLARK, FMR. FBI AGENT: Good to see you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. First of all legally let's talk about those who are on this list. To be on this list there's got to be reasonable suspicion and probably cause, isn't that right?
CLARK: Well, I think it borders on that and certainly those two items really play a key role, Kyra, because law enforcement has to function as using reasonable suspicion that someone may or may not commit a crime or may be involved in a crime and then that leads to probable cause.
All of that centers around intelligence gathering as well as evidence that's collected and, if you have reasonable suspicion that someone is about to do something, then you've got to take some action on it but there must be some basis of evidence to do that, not just because of name association or something of that nature.
PHILLIPS: But that happens constantly, Don. I mean Jeanne talked about it in her piece and I'll give you full disclosure here. You know I've told you about my husband. He's of Iranian descent and a number of times he's been yanked out of line because of his last name, because of his passport.
I got to tell you it's really frustrating. So, does that mean there are grounds for a lawsuit when that happens or it's just confusing because it does happen? You're pulled out because of your name.
CLARK: Well, I think there will be some arguments as to whether or not a lawsuit will go forward and courts in the civil -- and the civil courts will definitely take a look to see if there really are basis for a lawsuit here.
But I think the government can handle these types of things, Kyra, in a fashion that would minimize the exposure of trampling on the rights of citizens who may have a name and who may not be doing something different.
Much of this plays into part of our immigration system. I mean if we have someone in this country who comes from a country that is on the terrorist list then perhaps the issue should have been how did this person get into this country?
If we've allowed a person into this country then we must have developed some additional information someplace along the line to be able to include them on a list of something that would say we need to check you a little bit further.
And I have to tell you, Kyra, if evidence and intelligence has moved itself to a point where we're looking at someone on the probable cause set of circumstances then I suggest to you that somebody should be getting ready to be arrested at that point.
PHILLIPS: So, what do you think, does the ACLU have a case here since there are so many gaps and really no one is treated completely equal here because it's such a sketchy situation? Does the ACLU truly have a point? Will these plaintiffs do well?
CLARK: I think they have a concern that's raised here. I don't know, not knowing all of their evidence that they may have surrounding each one of these individuals or not, as to whether or not that this is going to go forward as a full-blown lawsuit.
But what I think it might do at the end of the day is that it will help the government I think to look at its circumstances and how it goes about deciding who they take out and who they are going to look at.
PHILLIPS: And every airport is different. I mean I've noticed that TSA operators they're different in every airport. The rules are different. Some airports are stricter than others. How do you -- I mean you've got to have some sort of regular routine right?
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right, Kyra. The key here is consistency and I've talked to TSA officials in the area here and I know many of the people here and some of the other airports across the country and they all say, and I believe them, that, yes, we are really working hard to try to make this better for the traveling public to get through.
But there are inconsistencies and not only are there inconsistencies, there are different procedures that take place from one airport to the other and within policy and I think that's what has to be looked at and particularly when it starts to look at something like a no-fly list that we know about and a selectee list that we know about and how is that going to make us a lot safer?
PHILLIPS: With your FBI background I know, Don, you have to look at everything and you have to be extra cautious. So, taking a look at what happened on 9/11 and we're in the airport and we're frustrated and we're rolling our eyes and we don't want to have to go through everything we have to go through and take off our shoes and put our bags through these long lines, et cetera, et cetera, do we need to just suck it up and move on because the last thing we ever want is another 9/11? 9/11 proved that when you are not paying attention and you're not overly protective in many ways that people slip through the system.
CLARK: Well, you know Kyra, after 25 years in law enforcement and I still have the law enforcement psychology and phraseology in my mind set that I don't want to see any of those type of things happen and we should do everything that we possibly can to keep it from happening.
But we do that in accordance with our laws that we have and, you know, what, those law enforcement procedures have gotten us in good stead for a long time. There are some mistakes made along the way but we should follow through with those principles.
And I don't think that we just have to say let's just suck it up and do whatever takes place because I think we have bright enough people. We have people with the capabilities to develop strategies and plans to do anything we want in this country and certainly we can develop degrees of consistency and compliance with the laws that we have to be able to get us safely through a search zone and onto an airplane.
PHILLIPS: Don, real quickly because I know you've had these lists while in the FBI. You've looked at these lists. Let's say your name gets on that list for one reason or another. You should not be on that list. Can you get off of it?
CLARK: Tough thing and I have to admit that is a very tough thing working with the number of government agencies that you have. And, I was happy to see, Kyra, that my old agency, someone in my old agency said look if you're on that list give us a call and we will do everything we can to remove it and I suspect that they will.
But those lists are circulated throughout the entities and I can tell you right now that there's probably not enough connectivity that all of the government entities that one push of a computer button would remove it from all of the system, so I think people are just going to have to follow through, follow through to try to get their names removed.
PHILLIPS: Don Clark, always a pleasure, thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Followers of a militant Muslim cleric are in deadly battles with coalition forces in Iraq. Who's the man behind the mayhem? We're going to take you in-depth.
And going up, your next trip to the gas pump will be one for the record books.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rhonda Schaffler in New York. A media giant plans to uproot from Australia and test out U.S. soil, that story and more when LIVE FROM continues right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Checking health headlines this Tuesday, well meaning paramedics might be delivering too much of a good thing to their heart patients. Researchers say some ambulance crews are too vigorous when they try to deliver CPR and may harm their patients. Also today, bystanders who want to help resuscitate are being told to skip the mouth-to-mouth and concentrate on chest compressions.
Vitamin B-12 or the lack of it could affect memory. In a study of people with a predisposition for Alzheimer's, those with a B-12 deficiency did worse on memory tests than those who had normal levels of the vitamin. Well, that report this month is in this month's "Neuropsychology."
An ice cream that requires an ID, in Australia they're screaming over a new vodka-flavored ice cream called Cranberry Magnum. There are worries that little tiny tots will develop a taste for booze. Well, speaking of Australia, an Australian media giant is ditching Aus in favor of the Big Apple. Rhonda Schaffler live from the New York Stock Exchange with the details -- Rhonda.
SCHAFFLER: Hi, Kyra.
News Corp wants to call New York home. The media giant owned by Australian-born Rupert Murdock (ph) plans to shift its official company headquarters to the U.S. from Australia. It also plans to move its primary listing here to the New York Stock Exchange.
News Corp is one of the world's biggest media conglomerates with stakes in Fox TV and film, as well as various newspaper and book publishers. The company says the move will make it easier to raise money and attract investors. More than 75 percent of its profits and revenues come from within the U.S. -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Rhonda, meantime, Kellogg's serving up some good news of its own.
SCHAFFLER: Yes, the company says it's off to a great start this year. It's upping its outlook in fact. The cereal and snack maker says sales are soaring and the weak U.S. dollar overseas is also fattening its bottom line. Kellogg's stock price is also gaining. It's up about two percent right now.
A bit of a different story for the overall market though. Stocks retreating a bit after a three-day rally, the Dow Industrial Average off 14 points, the NASDAQ slightly lower. That's the latest from Wall Street.
Later this hour, baseball's fast pitch and it isn't necessarily coming from the mound.
CNN's LIVE FROM plays ball right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta this is LIVE FROM. I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
A CNN special report, "Engaging the Enemy," the controversy surrounding these pictures in Iraq.
And in just two days Condoleezza Rice testified before the 9/11 commission. A member of that panel tells us what he wants to hear from her.
But first, the top stories we're following for you.
Just when you thought gas prices couldn't go any higher guess again. AAA says gas prices hit an all-time high record today. You can count on paying an average of $1.77 for a gallon of regular gas.
New information in the Tyco case, a police official tells CNN the writer of a coercive letter that forced a mistrial thought a mistrial had already been declared. The letter was sent to Juror Ruth Jordan. Detectives interviewed the writer and have now referred the matter back to the Manhattan District Attorney.
Administration sources confirm British Prime Minister Tony Blair is to meet with President Bush a week from Friday in Washington. There's no question the recent turmoil in Iraq will be a primary issue. Despite the violence, Blair insists...
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Aired April 6, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CLANCY: ...fascinated the rival Shia Muslim cleric Abdul Majid al-Khoei. Al-Khoei was backed by the United States.
On another front in Fallujah, U.S. Marines have now entered the city itself. For the last 48 hours they have been ringed around the city trading mortar and machine gun fire with insurgents inside Fallujah in the very heart of the Sunni Triangle. The residents of Fallujah, mostly shuttered indoors this day, as M1A1 Abrams tanks rolled into the city with infantry behind.
According to pool reports that are coming to us out of Fallujah, there were rocket launchers that were used against those tanks and against the U.S. forces as they came in, a barrage of that, at the same time some houses destroyed as the U.S. took countermeasures against snipers that had been sighted on rooftops.
So, we have a situation here, a very fluid situation but in some ways a very dangerous one from this occupation. After all, we are only 85 days away from a hand over of power. Tonight, many Iraqis may think that they are less secure, certainly less certain of their future as a result of all of this violence as in any time during the last year.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Sadr's spokesperson says the wanted cleric is being supported by other religious leaders including GRAND AYATOLLAH ALI SISTANI. He's a Shia spiritual leader in Iraq who in the past has been at odds with the more radical Sadr.
"Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid has observed both men. Here's his take.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY SHADID, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Sistani's influence far overshadows Sadr's. Sistani is an extremely respected cleric and is in his 70s. He by far commands the greatest following in Iraq. Sadr has often in public deferred to him. He understands Sistani's authority and he's been reluctant to come out and criticize him or attack him publicly.
Beneath the surface, though, you do see a pretty intense rivalry between the two figures, a different philosophy of what the clergy should -- the role the clergy should play in Iraq and also a different philosophy on what shapes the clergy. Is it Arab or is it Iranian? Is it nationalist or is it more religious?
It dates back to a rivalry between actually Sadr's father and Sistani. Sadr's father was a revered ayatollah who competed with Sistani for power and that rivalry has kind of carried over into Sadr's movement that emerged after the war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And Sadr has made no secret of the fact that he wants to share power in the new Iraq.
Well, they have a warrant. They know where he is. So, what are coalition troops waiting for?
CNN's Barbara Starr is back to talk Pentagon strategy for nabbing Sadr -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, let's lay it all out for everybody. Now as the fighting continues in Fallujah against radical Sunni elements there, Marines are encircling that town continuing to move in, by all accounts encountering heavy resistance, a lot of action there but that is, in fact, just half the problem.
In fact, it turns out that the Shia insurgency by the followers of Moqtada al-Sadr is now really the top concern by Pentagon officials. They are watching this insurgency grow. They are increasingly concerned about the violence now spreading across several cities by his insurgents.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today, for the first time, started talking since the violent outbreaks over the last few days about whether or not more troops are needed to deal with the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Both the president and I frequently ask the military commanders if they have all they need, if they have what they need, not just in people but equipment and support. And General Abizaid has the ultimate responsibility, General Sanchez is the senior military person on the ground in Iraq and they are the ones whose advice we follow on these things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Now no decision yet, of course, by the Pentagon about whether more troops are needed but what's the bottom line? Why don't they just move in, arrest the cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and put his militia out of business?
Well, officials say that's going to be very tough to do. Again, as Jim Clancy reports, he is apparently by all accounts holed up in the holy city of Najaf. U.S. troops would be extremely reluctant to go in there. It would be an affront to the Shia Muslims, so they are not likely to enter that city to try and prosecute that arrest warrant against him. They are also concerned that if they do arrest him they will simply raise his profile, that he will be able to gather more supporters in the streets of Iraq and the violence will only increase, So the word around here very slow, very deliberate in taking any action against Muqtada al-Sadr -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr live from the Pentagon thank you.
President Bush has hit the road again today to try to sell more voters on his economic ideas. He also addressed the situation in Iraq.
CNN's Suzanne Malveaux traveled to the president's speech in El Dorado, Arkansas -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, administration sources tell us that British Prime Minister Tony Blair is going to be meeting with President Bush. This is next Friday, April 16th at the White House. This is a meeting that was set up weeks ago. It is not in response to the kind of chaos and turmoil we've heard, we've seen on the ground in Iraq over the last 72 hours but having said that, administration sources say this is definitely going to be priority number one between the two leaders and their talk.
They're going to talk about the strategy to turn over power to the Iraqi people, the importance of working with the United Nations to come up with a workable governing body inside of Iraq that can handle that job and also the importance of meeting that June 30 deadline. That is something that both administrations feel is important. That is something that they have given their word to.
President Bush earlier today speaking in general terms about the administration's strategy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will pass sovereignty on June 30. We'll stay the course in Iraq. We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom because you know what, we understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful. That's what we understand in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, of course, there has been a debate over whether or not to extend that June 30 deadline. I've been speaking with administration officials and they lay it out this way. They say first and foremost the Iraqi people want it. They asked for that deadline. Secondly, the U.S. promised that it would deliver on that so it's a matter of credibility.
But two other reasons as well, they say they want this transformation really to have an international face, not an American face and there are even some who go further who say they believe American presence in Iraq even incites some of this violence, that it would be better to under the umbrella of the U.N. move as quickly as possible in internationalizing the effort.
And finally they say that June 30 deadline is really, it's a political deadline. It's turning over the political power certainly not the military security situation. We heard earlier today from Secretary Rumsfeld who said that there is going to be a strong U.S. military presence inside of Iraq for a long time -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you.
Straight ahead, life and death issues in combat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After we killed him there was the question of was this guy a hostile person? You know should we have killed him? Should we have engaged him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: A CNN special report you won't want to miss this, engaging the enemy, the controversy surrounding these pictures in Iraq.
And passenger screening lists, are they unfair profiling or just a legit way to prevent terrorism in the air?
And later why J-Lo may be hitting her mom up for a little ching- ching, yes right. We'll we've got the story on one lucky lady who is very close to J-Lo.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER FORECAST)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, the Army has basically given him a clean slate but Muslim Army Chaplain James Yee had trouble clearing security at the airport and missed his flight home to Seattle.
He spent 76 days in custody after the military linked him to a possible espionage ring at Guantanamo Bay. The Army has now dropped most of those charges. He did finally make it home to his wife and daughter and will eventually resume his post at Fort Lewis.
In the wake of September 11th, air travel has gotten a lot more involved than it used to be, especially for some people.
CNN's Jeanne Meserve says a few are resorting to a lawsuit now to make it easier for them to be cleared for takeoff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Security enhancements since 9/11 have meant security hassles for many travelers at the nation's airports but David Fathi believes he's had more trouble than most because his name appears on a government no-fly list.
DAVID FATHI, PLAINTIFF: I have been led away by police. I have been threatened with indefinite detention. I've had an officer tell another officer to put me in handcuffs and take me away.
MESERVE: But Fathi isn't a terrorist or a criminal. He's a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union with an Iranian last name and today he became one of seven plaintiffs in an ACLU class action lawsuit that says the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration should be required to maintain an accurate no-fly list that does not result in stigmatization, interrogation, delay, enhanced searched and detention for innocent passengers.
REGGIE SHUFORD, ACLU ATTORNEY: We have no problem with the government doing whatever it can to make us safe. We support those efforts wholeheartedly with the caveat that it has to be done in a way that does not trump or trample upon constitutional rights.
MESERVE: Though none of the plaintiffs was ultimately prevented from flying, the suit says they suffered significant embarrassment and humiliation and cannot check in using the Internet or e-ticket kiosks.
None of the plaintiffs know why they're on a no-fly list and many say they've been unsuccessful in getting removed. David Fathi tried, even got a letter from the TSA saying he is not a security risk but it hasn't helped.
FATHI: If anything, I get stopped more often since receiving my letter of clearance than before.
MESERVE (on camera): A government official acknowledged that the no-fly list is not perfect and the government wants to replace it with what it maintains is a more refined system, as for the ACLU lawsuit no comment yet from the Transportation Security Administration.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Security versus civil liberties, it's proving to be a tough balancing act in the post-9/11 world. Is the no-fly list the best way to protect the flying public or is there a better option?
Here to talk about it, former FBI lead investigator Don Clark. I want to add too he's got a law degree so we can hit all areas here, Don, great to see you.
DON CLARK, FMR. FBI AGENT: Good to see you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. First of all legally let's talk about those who are on this list. To be on this list there's got to be reasonable suspicion and probably cause, isn't that right?
CLARK: Well, I think it borders on that and certainly those two items really play a key role, Kyra, because law enforcement has to function as using reasonable suspicion that someone may or may not commit a crime or may be involved in a crime and then that leads to probable cause.
All of that centers around intelligence gathering as well as evidence that's collected and, if you have reasonable suspicion that someone is about to do something, then you've got to take some action on it but there must be some basis of evidence to do that, not just because of name association or something of that nature.
PHILLIPS: But that happens constantly, Don. I mean Jeanne talked about it in her piece and I'll give you full disclosure here. You know I've told you about my husband. He's of Iranian descent and a number of times he's been yanked out of line because of his last name, because of his passport.
I got to tell you it's really frustrating. So, does that mean there are grounds for a lawsuit when that happens or it's just confusing because it does happen? You're pulled out because of your name.
CLARK: Well, I think there will be some arguments as to whether or not a lawsuit will go forward and courts in the civil -- and the civil courts will definitely take a look to see if there really are basis for a lawsuit here.
But I think the government can handle these types of things, Kyra, in a fashion that would minimize the exposure of trampling on the rights of citizens who may have a name and who may not be doing something different.
Much of this plays into part of our immigration system. I mean if we have someone in this country who comes from a country that is on the terrorist list then perhaps the issue should have been how did this person get into this country?
If we've allowed a person into this country then we must have developed some additional information someplace along the line to be able to include them on a list of something that would say we need to check you a little bit further.
And I have to tell you, Kyra, if evidence and intelligence has moved itself to a point where we're looking at someone on the probable cause set of circumstances then I suggest to you that somebody should be getting ready to be arrested at that point.
PHILLIPS: So, what do you think, does the ACLU have a case here since there are so many gaps and really no one is treated completely equal here because it's such a sketchy situation? Does the ACLU truly have a point? Will these plaintiffs do well?
CLARK: I think they have a concern that's raised here. I don't know, not knowing all of their evidence that they may have surrounding each one of these individuals or not, as to whether or not that this is going to go forward as a full-blown lawsuit.
But what I think it might do at the end of the day is that it will help the government I think to look at its circumstances and how it goes about deciding who they take out and who they are going to look at.
PHILLIPS: And every airport is different. I mean I've noticed that TSA operators they're different in every airport. The rules are different. Some airports are stricter than others. How do you -- I mean you've got to have some sort of regular routine right?
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right, Kyra. The key here is consistency and I've talked to TSA officials in the area here and I know many of the people here and some of the other airports across the country and they all say, and I believe them, that, yes, we are really working hard to try to make this better for the traveling public to get through.
But there are inconsistencies and not only are there inconsistencies, there are different procedures that take place from one airport to the other and within policy and I think that's what has to be looked at and particularly when it starts to look at something like a no-fly list that we know about and a selectee list that we know about and how is that going to make us a lot safer?
PHILLIPS: With your FBI background I know, Don, you have to look at everything and you have to be extra cautious. So, taking a look at what happened on 9/11 and we're in the airport and we're frustrated and we're rolling our eyes and we don't want to have to go through everything we have to go through and take off our shoes and put our bags through these long lines, et cetera, et cetera, do we need to just suck it up and move on because the last thing we ever want is another 9/11? 9/11 proved that when you are not paying attention and you're not overly protective in many ways that people slip through the system.
CLARK: Well, you know Kyra, after 25 years in law enforcement and I still have the law enforcement psychology and phraseology in my mind set that I don't want to see any of those type of things happen and we should do everything that we possibly can to keep it from happening.
But we do that in accordance with our laws that we have and, you know, what, those law enforcement procedures have gotten us in good stead for a long time. There are some mistakes made along the way but we should follow through with those principles.
And I don't think that we just have to say let's just suck it up and do whatever takes place because I think we have bright enough people. We have people with the capabilities to develop strategies and plans to do anything we want in this country and certainly we can develop degrees of consistency and compliance with the laws that we have to be able to get us safely through a search zone and onto an airplane.
PHILLIPS: Don, real quickly because I know you've had these lists while in the FBI. You've looked at these lists. Let's say your name gets on that list for one reason or another. You should not be on that list. Can you get off of it?
CLARK: Tough thing and I have to admit that is a very tough thing working with the number of government agencies that you have. And, I was happy to see, Kyra, that my old agency, someone in my old agency said look if you're on that list give us a call and we will do everything we can to remove it and I suspect that they will.
But those lists are circulated throughout the entities and I can tell you right now that there's probably not enough connectivity that all of the government entities that one push of a computer button would remove it from all of the system, so I think people are just going to have to follow through, follow through to try to get their names removed.
PHILLIPS: Don Clark, always a pleasure, thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Followers of a militant Muslim cleric are in deadly battles with coalition forces in Iraq. Who's the man behind the mayhem? We're going to take you in-depth.
And going up, your next trip to the gas pump will be one for the record books.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rhonda Schaffler in New York. A media giant plans to uproot from Australia and test out U.S. soil, that story and more when LIVE FROM continues right after this break.
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PHILLIPS: Checking health headlines this Tuesday, well meaning paramedics might be delivering too much of a good thing to their heart patients. Researchers say some ambulance crews are too vigorous when they try to deliver CPR and may harm their patients. Also today, bystanders who want to help resuscitate are being told to skip the mouth-to-mouth and concentrate on chest compressions.
Vitamin B-12 or the lack of it could affect memory. In a study of people with a predisposition for Alzheimer's, those with a B-12 deficiency did worse on memory tests than those who had normal levels of the vitamin. Well, that report this month is in this month's "Neuropsychology."
An ice cream that requires an ID, in Australia they're screaming over a new vodka-flavored ice cream called Cranberry Magnum. There are worries that little tiny tots will develop a taste for booze. Well, speaking of Australia, an Australian media giant is ditching Aus in favor of the Big Apple. Rhonda Schaffler live from the New York Stock Exchange with the details -- Rhonda.
SCHAFFLER: Hi, Kyra.
News Corp wants to call New York home. The media giant owned by Australian-born Rupert Murdock (ph) plans to shift its official company headquarters to the U.S. from Australia. It also plans to move its primary listing here to the New York Stock Exchange.
News Corp is one of the world's biggest media conglomerates with stakes in Fox TV and film, as well as various newspaper and book publishers. The company says the move will make it easier to raise money and attract investors. More than 75 percent of its profits and revenues come from within the U.S. -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Rhonda, meantime, Kellogg's serving up some good news of its own.
SCHAFFLER: Yes, the company says it's off to a great start this year. It's upping its outlook in fact. The cereal and snack maker says sales are soaring and the weak U.S. dollar overseas is also fattening its bottom line. Kellogg's stock price is also gaining. It's up about two percent right now.
A bit of a different story for the overall market though. Stocks retreating a bit after a three-day rally, the Dow Industrial Average off 14 points, the NASDAQ slightly lower. That's the latest from Wall Street.
Later this hour, baseball's fast pitch and it isn't necessarily coming from the mound.
CNN's LIVE FROM plays ball right after this break.
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PHILLIPS: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta this is LIVE FROM. I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
A CNN special report, "Engaging the Enemy," the controversy surrounding these pictures in Iraq.
And in just two days Condoleezza Rice testified before the 9/11 commission. A member of that panel tells us what he wants to hear from her.
But first, the top stories we're following for you.
Just when you thought gas prices couldn't go any higher guess again. AAA says gas prices hit an all-time high record today. You can count on paying an average of $1.77 for a gallon of regular gas.
New information in the Tyco case, a police official tells CNN the writer of a coercive letter that forced a mistrial thought a mistrial had already been declared. The letter was sent to Juror Ruth Jordan. Detectives interviewed the writer and have now referred the matter back to the Manhattan District Attorney.
Administration sources confirm British Prime Minister Tony Blair is to meet with President Bush a week from Friday in Washington. There's no question the recent turmoil in Iraq will be a primary issue. Despite the violence, Blair insists...
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