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Star Witness Takes Stand in Oklahoma City Bombing Trial; Guantanamo Bay Appeals
Aired April 20, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM. I'm Kyra Phillips.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Miles O'Brien. Let's check the headlines.
A difficult month, the secretary of defense is calling for patience and resolve in Iraq. The Pentagon briefs reporters on the latest situation on the ground and the road ahead. We'll have a live update from the Pentagon in just a moment.
A U.S.-run prison in Baghdad has been attacked by insurgents. At least 22 detainees killed, 92 injured in that mortar attack. The facility holds former members of Saddam Hussein's regime as well as suspected insurgents. An Army spokesman says it's not clear if the attack was designed to sparked to spark a prison break or some sort of uprising.
Remembering Columbine. Five years after two teen gunmen unleashed terror at their Colorado high school, parents and students are pausing to remember. The high school was closed today but many of the members of the community returned to campus for a moment of reflection. A memorial and candlelight vigil planned for tonight.
No more licenses for gay couples, that's the ruling from a judge in Oregon. His ruling will bring an end to gay weddings in Multnomah County, the last jurisdiction in the country currently allowing them. The judge says a Supreme Court ruling is needed to decide the issue.
PHILLIPS: Up first this hour, a test of wills in Iraq and one big won't from the Pentagon. If you've been watching CNN, you heard Donald Rumsfeld's description of the violence that has made this the deadliest month so far for U.S. forces. But the enemies of freedom, Rumsfeld vows, won't prevail.
Here's CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, just about a month and a half before that June 30 turnover of sovereignty in Iraq and a lot of concentration here at the Pentagon at today's briefing and both also on testimony on the Hill taking a look at that turnover date and the fact that the United States needs to hold firm until that point and to do everything it can to get Iraqis to take over their own security and to believe that they're fighting for Iraq, not on behalf of American occupiers. Today, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Myers revealed on the Hill that the Pentagon has contingency plans to increase the number of troops beyond the 135,000 now there, if necessary. But today at the Defense Department briefing, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld insisted that he's not considering increasing forces, but he's preparing to do it if necessary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We are aware of two things. One is, in the event he decides he wants to stay at 135,000 after the 90 days in country expires, we have thought through how these people would be replaced. And in the event he were to require still additional forces, we have thought through that as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon today drew a distinction between the Kind of combat that they're facing in Fallujah, where they are battling Sunni insurgents who the Pentagon believes are part of the former Iraqi military apparatus, an admission today that they're facing Very sophisticated tactics there, including enemy forces that are standing and fighting in platoon and sometimes company formations, much different, they say, than what they're fighting in the south, where the follow ares of Muqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shia cleric, are said to be not very well organized militarily.
Again, the key theme sounded both on Capitol Hill today and here at the Pentagon is that the Sunni minority needs to feel that they have a stake in the future of Iraq. The Pentagon needs to do a better job getting Iraqi security forces trained and ready to go and feeling that they're fighting on behalf of a sovereign Iraqi government, not an American occupation force -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre live from the Pentagon, thanks.
O'BRIEN: On Capitol Hill, the focus is on how much longer U.S. troops will have to be under the gun in Iraq. Various House and Senate committees have launched hearings into the Bush administration policies, from its rationale for going to war in the first place to what's going on happen after the June 30 handover.
A select group of lawmakers will get to hear what President Bush has to say. He's invited some Republican members of Congress to the White House tonight.
One American in three favor sending more U.S. troops to Iraq. That's up from one in five American Americans only two weeks ago, one in 10 in January. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll has a potential sampling error of three percentage points either way.
In the political arena, President Bush holds a 5 percent point lead over John Kerry among likely November voters.
PHILLIPS: Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell is on the offensive against reports that he was out of the loop in the Bush administration's decision to go to war in Iraq. A new book by Bob Woodward suggests that Powell was notified of the war decision after others, including Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar. Powell denies that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We all talked to Woodward. It was part of our instructions from the White House, just as we did with his first book. It was an opportunity to help him write a history, a contemporary history of this period. It was no secret that all of us were encouraged to talk to Mr. Woodward. In my case, it was just a couple phone calls.
The question that has arisen seems to be that Prince Bandar received briefing on the plan with some suggestion that I hadn't. Of course, I had. I was intimately familiar with the plan and I was aware that Prince Bandar was being briefed on the plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The Woodward book is getting good reaction at the White House. It's even listed on the Bush reelection Web site as recommended reading.
A critical day in the murder trial of Terry Nichols, as the state's star witness takes the stand.
For more on what he had to say about Nichols and the Oklahoma City bombing, we go to CNN's Susan Candiotti, who is at the courthouse McAlester, Oklahoma.
Hello, Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles.
A windy day here in Oklahoma. So far, Michael Fortier's testimony against Terry Nichols is putting Nichols directly into the bomb plot to blow up the Oklahoma City federal building. Now, Fortier, who's been on the stand for a couple of hours now, he's now serving a 12-year sentence for knowing about the bomb plot in advance and failing to warn anyone about it.
Now, in testimony that mirrors what he said in on two previous federal trials, Fortier told jurors that McVeigh was working with Nichols on doing something against the government after that Branch Davidian fire at Waco. Now, in the summer of '94, Fortier testified about getting a letter from McVeigh. I'm going to quote you from it. Fortier said -- quote -- "He was telling me that him and Terry had decided to take some sort of positive action and he wanted to know if I wanted to help him" -- end quote.
Now, later, Fortier said that McVeigh told him that Nichols had robbed a gun dealer, presumably to get proceeds from that robbery to help fund the bomb plot. And also he talked about how he and Terry Nichols had stole explosives from a quarry in Kansas, blasting caps as well as explosives that they later were to use in the bomb plot. Now, Fortier and Nichols in the courtroom have barely been looking at each other when Fortier initially walked in. From time to time Fortier looks over at Nichols and Nichols is more or less staring him down on the witness stand. The jury has been attentive throughout. Victims' relatives in particular say that has impressed them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARLENE WELCH, AUNT OF VICTIM: I don't think he even looked at Nichols, as far as I'm concerned. The main thing I noticed when they were talking about the explosives, how the jury was all leaning forward in their seats listening to every word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Now, he is expected to be on the stand the rest of the day and possibly into tomorrow. It's far too early to tell that, but it has been very interesting listening to what he has to say, much as it was during the two federal trials -- back to you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Susan Candiotti, McAlester, Oklahoma -- Kyra.
An important test today of the legal muscle behind one of the Bush administration's sweeping antiterrorism policies. The Supreme Court is hearing two appeals on whether hundreds of terror suspects being held at Guantanamo Bay are being detained lawfully. The detainees are said to be al Qaeda or Taliban fighters captured mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Some have been held for more than two years at Guantanamo without access to lawyers or family.
As the U.S. Supreme Court hears those appeals, there is plenty of interest abroad and no small amount of criticism, even among the administration's staunchest allies.
CNN senior international correspondent Sheila MacVicar on the British view of Gitmo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): If the U.S. Supreme Court does not intervene, some of the 600 or so prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and no one yet knows how many may eventually face not trials but what are called military commissions. Those commissions would take place here in this yellow building on a hill above the camp.
Critics of the U.S. administration's plan say the U.S. solution will not offer justice.
Louise Christian represents two of those now held at Guantanamo.
LOUISE CHRISTIAN, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: They are the military commissions which are not independent of the U.S. government and have no independent right of appeal, and, moreover, again to allow evidence obtained under duress without a lawyer being present. MACVICAR: Five British detainees were released from Guantanamo last month after two years in detention with no access to lawyers and no charges. When they returned to Britain, four of them were briefly questioned by counterterrorism police. All were released and face no charges, no further investigation.
(on camera): It's now known that three of those detainees falsely confessed to their American interrogators that they had been with Osama bin Laden. Lawyers for the men say they confessed under pressure. And advocates ask, if those confessions were false, how many more false confessions might there be and how many might end up being used as key evidence before a military commission?
Moazzam Begg is one of the British detainees still at Guantanamo. His father, Azmet, has had some letters.
AZMET BEGG, FATHER OF DETAINEE: After all, this time, I still don't know what crime I'm supposed to have committed.
MACVICAR: But the U.S. government says he is a serious security risk and has made clear he will not be released soon.
AZMET: If Moazzam has done something wrong, he should be brought back to this country. He should be medically examined. He should be then tried if he's done wrong, anything wrong. If it is proved, he should be punished.
MACVICAR: Even the British government, America's closest ally, doesn't like the U.S. plan.
JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN MINISTER: The detainees should either be tried in accordance with international standards or they should be returned to the United Kingdom.
MACVICAR: Unless the Supreme Court intervenes or the U.S. government change its mind, the future for many of the detainees be indefinitely here, on the shores of Guantanamo Bay.
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, the Jackson family is back in the headlines, this time Jermaine Jackson doing a Jesse Jackson. He's on a mission overseas.
PHILLIPS: Hero or traitor? The man who revealed Israel's nuclear secrets will soon be a free man.
O'BRIEN: Later, he'll sit this one out. The courts decide that 20-year-old Maurice Clarett cannot be a part of the NFL draft.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: News around the world now. Michael Jackson's brother Jermaine slams U.S. policy in Iraq. Jackson is a Muslim convert. He is in Bahrain. He called Muslims the new Negroes in America.
Sweden's national police arrest four suspects for questioning about possible terror terrorism activities. Authorities say the suspects are associated with Islamic extremist groups, but their activities did not involve Europe.
The man who blew the whistle on Israel's nuclear program says he has no more secrets to tell. Mordechai Vanunu is due to be released from prison tomorrow. He's been held 18 years for revealing Israel's so-called bomb in the basement. A hero of anti-nuclear activists, Vanunu won't be allowed to leave the country or make contact with foreigners.
PHILLIPS: Hamas dazed and confused? Israel wants to diffuse the power of the militant group by taking out its leaders. Saturday's assassination of Abdel-Aziz Rantisi sparked outrage in the Arab world. Harsh as Israel's tactics may be, are they succeeding?
Our John Vause brings us an inside look from Gaza.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Palestinian militants, a united show of force, armed men who say they're ready to die in the fight against Israel, their faces masked so they can't be identified by the Israelis and hunted down.
Everywhere in Gaza, there are calls for revenge, from little girls barely 10 years old, to those gathered on a dusty football field to mourn. They filed past the faces of the four dead Hamas leaders, all victims of Israeli assassination. Abdel-Aziz Rantissi's elder son says retaliation is only a matter of time.
MUHAMMAD RANTISSI, SON OF SLAIN LEADER (through translator): I have confidence and trust Hamas will retaliate. In the past, Hamas has been attacked by Israel, but Hamas has continued with their resistance.
VAUSE: But when? Two leaders killed in less than a month, the remaining leadership underground and despite promises of an earthquake like response, so far nothing.
ZIAD ABU-AMR, POLITICAL ANALYST: It's like a family which loses the father and the big brother.
VAUSE: Among the high-profile leaders left behind is Mahmoud Zahhar. He is in hiding from the Israeli military, but turned up briefly at the mourners tent.
MAHMOUD ZAHHAR, SENIOR HAMAS LEADER: This is serving Hamas. The popular support increased. Our legitimacy is increased and intensified inside and outside.
VAUSE: Both business, schools and government offices closed for three days of mourning. And many here believe Hamas is still a potent force in the fight against Israel. AZZAM ABU-JARAD, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): Hamas has not been weakened. Even if they assassinate the leaders, 20 others will take their place.
VAUSE: For more than three years, Hamas has led a campaign of suicide bombing. It remains to be seen if the new leader, whoever that is, has the ability to continue those attacks.
(on camera): For many within Hamas, it is now a question of credibility. They believe to maintain widespread support among Palestinians, they must deliver on their promise of a major blow against Israel.
John Vause, CNN, Gaza.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, Alan Greenspan has spoken and Wall Street is reacting. We'll check those numbers for you next.
PHILLIPS: Also, former Ohio state star Maurice Clarett forced to sit out of the draft. We'll dish up some sports with Steak Shapiro.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(FINANCIAL UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: Well, a couple of sports headlines grabbed our attention today, the scandal swirling around hockey star Mike Danton, accused in a bizarre murder-for-hire plot, and the appellate court ruling keeping Maurice Clarett from entering the NFL draft this weekend.
We're going to talk turkey we Steak Shapiro.
(CROSSTALK)
STEAK SHAPIRO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I like that.
PHILLIPS: Do you like that? Radio host of the 790 the Zone. We got to plug the show there.
SHAPIRO: Yes, Indeed.
PHILLIPS: When are you going to reach all the whole entire show with your radio show, by the way?
SHAPIRO: It's right around the corner, but then I wouldn't be catering to Atlantans, like yourself, driving and listening to me. Big fans, right?
PHILLIPS: There you go. Well, you always have an opinion. That's for sure.
Let's talk about this bizarre story of Mike Danton. First of all, your take. Are you talking about it? Are people talking about it in the sports world?
SHAPIRO: It's just such a bizarre tale on so many different levels, the rumors of homosexuality, trying to kill his roommate, the 19-year-old girl who emerged on the scene all of a sudden. It's juicy. It's salacious. It's just how we like it on sports talk radio, but it is a little bit disturbing to think about.
I've had some roommate problems in college myself, but I don't think it ever went this far, a very bizarre turn of events certainly.
PHILLIPS: Well, do you think there's more of a sigma in hockey? It's all about beating each other up and being macho.
SHAPIRO: Right, macho.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: I don't think the notion of somebody coming -- and the rumor, by the way, is the reason his roommate was -- that he was going to off his roommate is because that he was going to expose his sexual behavior and also his alcohol problems, something some of us in the business can relate to, I guess.
PHILLIPS: Not us.
SHAPIRO: No, God no.
In all seriousness, gay and professional sports, it's not going to play in a baseball locker room. It's not going to play in the NBA. It's not going to play in the NFL. Are hockey players more macho? Are hockey players any tougher? I think it's all relative. You have not seen a professional athlete come forward and say that they're gay. And I think this is another example of the fear and paranoia surrounding it.
PHILLIPS: Yes, I was going to say, if indeed this is true, it shows the depth of this homophobia in sports.
SHAPIRO: Yes. Well, it's like you said. Big, tough, virile guys are not supposed to like other guys. And gay is not going to play in the locker room. You've heard professional athletes say I won't be in a team with somebody's who's gay, I won't dress next to him.
And I think perhaps the fear that perhaps his roommate was going to expose him was too much. This was a troubled guy, though. He has been suspended a few times in the NHL. He changed his name. His name was Mike Jefferson. Now it's Danton. This is a guy that had some issues clearly to begin with.
PHILLIPS: Yes, once again, if it's true, it shows the struggle of coming out, if indeed it turns out to be this way.
Let's talk about Maurice Clarett, now blocked from the NFL draft. What do you think? You have an opinion about young kids going into the NFL and professional sports.
SHAPIRO: You know, as a sports fan, you want to see high school kids stay out of the game, ideally. It's hurt the NBA. It's hurt college basketball.
But the fact is Maurice Clarett, if he can make a living playing football, it's going to be very hard I think in the legal system to keep him away. They may have gotten a stay yesterday. The NFL doesn't want high school kids or young college kids coming in. But, at some point, look, Freddy Adu is doing it in soccer. Tiger Woods did it. You see it in golf all the time. You see it in basketball.
How all of a sudden does the NFL say you're not able to do that? So the notion that two years out of school or three years out of school is the rule is going to hold, I don't think it is going to hold.
PHILLIPS: Well, you talk about how it's affected college ball. How do you think it's damaged pro ball?
SHAPIRO: Well, the fact is, in the pros right now, you have so many -- LeBron James is the exception. LeBron James is a kid that comes out of high school. Even Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady and guys like that took years to evolve. LeBron came out and excelled right away.
That's an aberration. Most times, these high school kids sit on the edge of a bench. They water down the talent in the NBA. You lose the high level of play in college. It's watered down the entire game. You don't see teams with a lot of fluid and a lot of superstars. And, look, football's different. You're not physically able to play at a young age in football, but it's definitely hurt the NBA.
PHILLIPS: We dig our sports, but, come on, you've got to go to college.
SHAPIRO: That's very powerful. If every high school kid had you deliver that message, we dig our sports, but, hey, you got to go college.
(LAUGHTER)
SHAPIRO: Where's the $30, $40 million?
PHILLIPS: I'm going to be the commencement speaker now at every college graduation coming up.
SHAPIRO: Yes, that's good, because why make $40 million when you can hang in a sorority house for four years?
PHILLIPS: Absolutely.
SHAPIRO: That's very powerful.
PHILLIPS: But I'm looking at the long run, Steak.
SHAPIRO: The big picture.
PHILLIPS: The big picture, all right? We wouldn't be here unless we all went to college. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: That $40 million is the long run, Kyra. That's all I'm going to say about that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Unless you blow it all.
O'BRIEN: Well, that's another story.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: You could take a good run with $40 million, though.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: ... take over the sports show.
I guess that does it for LIVE FROM.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: That's very insightful, very insightful. I'm going to use that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Thank you, Steak. Got to cook him on the barbecue.
O'BRIEN: That Steak, he's rare.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Yes, he is.
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's get out of here, shall we?
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 20, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM. I'm Kyra Phillips.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Miles O'Brien. Let's check the headlines.
A difficult month, the secretary of defense is calling for patience and resolve in Iraq. The Pentagon briefs reporters on the latest situation on the ground and the road ahead. We'll have a live update from the Pentagon in just a moment.
A U.S.-run prison in Baghdad has been attacked by insurgents. At least 22 detainees killed, 92 injured in that mortar attack. The facility holds former members of Saddam Hussein's regime as well as suspected insurgents. An Army spokesman says it's not clear if the attack was designed to sparked to spark a prison break or some sort of uprising.
Remembering Columbine. Five years after two teen gunmen unleashed terror at their Colorado high school, parents and students are pausing to remember. The high school was closed today but many of the members of the community returned to campus for a moment of reflection. A memorial and candlelight vigil planned for tonight.
No more licenses for gay couples, that's the ruling from a judge in Oregon. His ruling will bring an end to gay weddings in Multnomah County, the last jurisdiction in the country currently allowing them. The judge says a Supreme Court ruling is needed to decide the issue.
PHILLIPS: Up first this hour, a test of wills in Iraq and one big won't from the Pentagon. If you've been watching CNN, you heard Donald Rumsfeld's description of the violence that has made this the deadliest month so far for U.S. forces. But the enemies of freedom, Rumsfeld vows, won't prevail.
Here's CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, just about a month and a half before that June 30 turnover of sovereignty in Iraq and a lot of concentration here at the Pentagon at today's briefing and both also on testimony on the Hill taking a look at that turnover date and the fact that the United States needs to hold firm until that point and to do everything it can to get Iraqis to take over their own security and to believe that they're fighting for Iraq, not on behalf of American occupiers. Today, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Myers revealed on the Hill that the Pentagon has contingency plans to increase the number of troops beyond the 135,000 now there, if necessary. But today at the Defense Department briefing, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld insisted that he's not considering increasing forces, but he's preparing to do it if necessary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We are aware of two things. One is, in the event he decides he wants to stay at 135,000 after the 90 days in country expires, we have thought through how these people would be replaced. And in the event he were to require still additional forces, we have thought through that as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon today drew a distinction between the Kind of combat that they're facing in Fallujah, where they are battling Sunni insurgents who the Pentagon believes are part of the former Iraqi military apparatus, an admission today that they're facing Very sophisticated tactics there, including enemy forces that are standing and fighting in platoon and sometimes company formations, much different, they say, than what they're fighting in the south, where the follow ares of Muqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shia cleric, are said to be not very well organized militarily.
Again, the key theme sounded both on Capitol Hill today and here at the Pentagon is that the Sunni minority needs to feel that they have a stake in the future of Iraq. The Pentagon needs to do a better job getting Iraqi security forces trained and ready to go and feeling that they're fighting on behalf of a sovereign Iraqi government, not an American occupation force -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre live from the Pentagon, thanks.
O'BRIEN: On Capitol Hill, the focus is on how much longer U.S. troops will have to be under the gun in Iraq. Various House and Senate committees have launched hearings into the Bush administration policies, from its rationale for going to war in the first place to what's going on happen after the June 30 handover.
A select group of lawmakers will get to hear what President Bush has to say. He's invited some Republican members of Congress to the White House tonight.
One American in three favor sending more U.S. troops to Iraq. That's up from one in five American Americans only two weeks ago, one in 10 in January. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll has a potential sampling error of three percentage points either way.
In the political arena, President Bush holds a 5 percent point lead over John Kerry among likely November voters.
PHILLIPS: Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell is on the offensive against reports that he was out of the loop in the Bush administration's decision to go to war in Iraq. A new book by Bob Woodward suggests that Powell was notified of the war decision after others, including Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar. Powell denies that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We all talked to Woodward. It was part of our instructions from the White House, just as we did with his first book. It was an opportunity to help him write a history, a contemporary history of this period. It was no secret that all of us were encouraged to talk to Mr. Woodward. In my case, it was just a couple phone calls.
The question that has arisen seems to be that Prince Bandar received briefing on the plan with some suggestion that I hadn't. Of course, I had. I was intimately familiar with the plan and I was aware that Prince Bandar was being briefed on the plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The Woodward book is getting good reaction at the White House. It's even listed on the Bush reelection Web site as recommended reading.
A critical day in the murder trial of Terry Nichols, as the state's star witness takes the stand.
For more on what he had to say about Nichols and the Oklahoma City bombing, we go to CNN's Susan Candiotti, who is at the courthouse McAlester, Oklahoma.
Hello, Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles.
A windy day here in Oklahoma. So far, Michael Fortier's testimony against Terry Nichols is putting Nichols directly into the bomb plot to blow up the Oklahoma City federal building. Now, Fortier, who's been on the stand for a couple of hours now, he's now serving a 12-year sentence for knowing about the bomb plot in advance and failing to warn anyone about it.
Now, in testimony that mirrors what he said in on two previous federal trials, Fortier told jurors that McVeigh was working with Nichols on doing something against the government after that Branch Davidian fire at Waco. Now, in the summer of '94, Fortier testified about getting a letter from McVeigh. I'm going to quote you from it. Fortier said -- quote -- "He was telling me that him and Terry had decided to take some sort of positive action and he wanted to know if I wanted to help him" -- end quote.
Now, later, Fortier said that McVeigh told him that Nichols had robbed a gun dealer, presumably to get proceeds from that robbery to help fund the bomb plot. And also he talked about how he and Terry Nichols had stole explosives from a quarry in Kansas, blasting caps as well as explosives that they later were to use in the bomb plot. Now, Fortier and Nichols in the courtroom have barely been looking at each other when Fortier initially walked in. From time to time Fortier looks over at Nichols and Nichols is more or less staring him down on the witness stand. The jury has been attentive throughout. Victims' relatives in particular say that has impressed them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARLENE WELCH, AUNT OF VICTIM: I don't think he even looked at Nichols, as far as I'm concerned. The main thing I noticed when they were talking about the explosives, how the jury was all leaning forward in their seats listening to every word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Now, he is expected to be on the stand the rest of the day and possibly into tomorrow. It's far too early to tell that, but it has been very interesting listening to what he has to say, much as it was during the two federal trials -- back to you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Susan Candiotti, McAlester, Oklahoma -- Kyra.
An important test today of the legal muscle behind one of the Bush administration's sweeping antiterrorism policies. The Supreme Court is hearing two appeals on whether hundreds of terror suspects being held at Guantanamo Bay are being detained lawfully. The detainees are said to be al Qaeda or Taliban fighters captured mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Some have been held for more than two years at Guantanamo without access to lawyers or family.
As the U.S. Supreme Court hears those appeals, there is plenty of interest abroad and no small amount of criticism, even among the administration's staunchest allies.
CNN senior international correspondent Sheila MacVicar on the British view of Gitmo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): If the U.S. Supreme Court does not intervene, some of the 600 or so prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and no one yet knows how many may eventually face not trials but what are called military commissions. Those commissions would take place here in this yellow building on a hill above the camp.
Critics of the U.S. administration's plan say the U.S. solution will not offer justice.
Louise Christian represents two of those now held at Guantanamo.
LOUISE CHRISTIAN, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: They are the military commissions which are not independent of the U.S. government and have no independent right of appeal, and, moreover, again to allow evidence obtained under duress without a lawyer being present. MACVICAR: Five British detainees were released from Guantanamo last month after two years in detention with no access to lawyers and no charges. When they returned to Britain, four of them were briefly questioned by counterterrorism police. All were released and face no charges, no further investigation.
(on camera): It's now known that three of those detainees falsely confessed to their American interrogators that they had been with Osama bin Laden. Lawyers for the men say they confessed under pressure. And advocates ask, if those confessions were false, how many more false confessions might there be and how many might end up being used as key evidence before a military commission?
Moazzam Begg is one of the British detainees still at Guantanamo. His father, Azmet, has had some letters.
AZMET BEGG, FATHER OF DETAINEE: After all, this time, I still don't know what crime I'm supposed to have committed.
MACVICAR: But the U.S. government says he is a serious security risk and has made clear he will not be released soon.
AZMET: If Moazzam has done something wrong, he should be brought back to this country. He should be medically examined. He should be then tried if he's done wrong, anything wrong. If it is proved, he should be punished.
MACVICAR: Even the British government, America's closest ally, doesn't like the U.S. plan.
JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN MINISTER: The detainees should either be tried in accordance with international standards or they should be returned to the United Kingdom.
MACVICAR: Unless the Supreme Court intervenes or the U.S. government change its mind, the future for many of the detainees be indefinitely here, on the shores of Guantanamo Bay.
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, the Jackson family is back in the headlines, this time Jermaine Jackson doing a Jesse Jackson. He's on a mission overseas.
PHILLIPS: Hero or traitor? The man who revealed Israel's nuclear secrets will soon be a free man.
O'BRIEN: Later, he'll sit this one out. The courts decide that 20-year-old Maurice Clarett cannot be a part of the NFL draft.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: News around the world now. Michael Jackson's brother Jermaine slams U.S. policy in Iraq. Jackson is a Muslim convert. He is in Bahrain. He called Muslims the new Negroes in America.
Sweden's national police arrest four suspects for questioning about possible terror terrorism activities. Authorities say the suspects are associated with Islamic extremist groups, but their activities did not involve Europe.
The man who blew the whistle on Israel's nuclear program says he has no more secrets to tell. Mordechai Vanunu is due to be released from prison tomorrow. He's been held 18 years for revealing Israel's so-called bomb in the basement. A hero of anti-nuclear activists, Vanunu won't be allowed to leave the country or make contact with foreigners.
PHILLIPS: Hamas dazed and confused? Israel wants to diffuse the power of the militant group by taking out its leaders. Saturday's assassination of Abdel-Aziz Rantisi sparked outrage in the Arab world. Harsh as Israel's tactics may be, are they succeeding?
Our John Vause brings us an inside look from Gaza.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Palestinian militants, a united show of force, armed men who say they're ready to die in the fight against Israel, their faces masked so they can't be identified by the Israelis and hunted down.
Everywhere in Gaza, there are calls for revenge, from little girls barely 10 years old, to those gathered on a dusty football field to mourn. They filed past the faces of the four dead Hamas leaders, all victims of Israeli assassination. Abdel-Aziz Rantissi's elder son says retaliation is only a matter of time.
MUHAMMAD RANTISSI, SON OF SLAIN LEADER (through translator): I have confidence and trust Hamas will retaliate. In the past, Hamas has been attacked by Israel, but Hamas has continued with their resistance.
VAUSE: But when? Two leaders killed in less than a month, the remaining leadership underground and despite promises of an earthquake like response, so far nothing.
ZIAD ABU-AMR, POLITICAL ANALYST: It's like a family which loses the father and the big brother.
VAUSE: Among the high-profile leaders left behind is Mahmoud Zahhar. He is in hiding from the Israeli military, but turned up briefly at the mourners tent.
MAHMOUD ZAHHAR, SENIOR HAMAS LEADER: This is serving Hamas. The popular support increased. Our legitimacy is increased and intensified inside and outside.
VAUSE: Both business, schools and government offices closed for three days of mourning. And many here believe Hamas is still a potent force in the fight against Israel. AZZAM ABU-JARAD, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): Hamas has not been weakened. Even if they assassinate the leaders, 20 others will take their place.
VAUSE: For more than three years, Hamas has led a campaign of suicide bombing. It remains to be seen if the new leader, whoever that is, has the ability to continue those attacks.
(on camera): For many within Hamas, it is now a question of credibility. They believe to maintain widespread support among Palestinians, they must deliver on their promise of a major blow against Israel.
John Vause, CNN, Gaza.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, Alan Greenspan has spoken and Wall Street is reacting. We'll check those numbers for you next.
PHILLIPS: Also, former Ohio state star Maurice Clarett forced to sit out of the draft. We'll dish up some sports with Steak Shapiro.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(FINANCIAL UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: Well, a couple of sports headlines grabbed our attention today, the scandal swirling around hockey star Mike Danton, accused in a bizarre murder-for-hire plot, and the appellate court ruling keeping Maurice Clarett from entering the NFL draft this weekend.
We're going to talk turkey we Steak Shapiro.
(CROSSTALK)
STEAK SHAPIRO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I like that.
PHILLIPS: Do you like that? Radio host of the 790 the Zone. We got to plug the show there.
SHAPIRO: Yes, Indeed.
PHILLIPS: When are you going to reach all the whole entire show with your radio show, by the way?
SHAPIRO: It's right around the corner, but then I wouldn't be catering to Atlantans, like yourself, driving and listening to me. Big fans, right?
PHILLIPS: There you go. Well, you always have an opinion. That's for sure.
Let's talk about this bizarre story of Mike Danton. First of all, your take. Are you talking about it? Are people talking about it in the sports world?
SHAPIRO: It's just such a bizarre tale on so many different levels, the rumors of homosexuality, trying to kill his roommate, the 19-year-old girl who emerged on the scene all of a sudden. It's juicy. It's salacious. It's just how we like it on sports talk radio, but it is a little bit disturbing to think about.
I've had some roommate problems in college myself, but I don't think it ever went this far, a very bizarre turn of events certainly.
PHILLIPS: Well, do you think there's more of a sigma in hockey? It's all about beating each other up and being macho.
SHAPIRO: Right, macho.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: I don't think the notion of somebody coming -- and the rumor, by the way, is the reason his roommate was -- that he was going to off his roommate is because that he was going to expose his sexual behavior and also his alcohol problems, something some of us in the business can relate to, I guess.
PHILLIPS: Not us.
SHAPIRO: No, God no.
In all seriousness, gay and professional sports, it's not going to play in a baseball locker room. It's not going to play in the NBA. It's not going to play in the NFL. Are hockey players more macho? Are hockey players any tougher? I think it's all relative. You have not seen a professional athlete come forward and say that they're gay. And I think this is another example of the fear and paranoia surrounding it.
PHILLIPS: Yes, I was going to say, if indeed this is true, it shows the depth of this homophobia in sports.
SHAPIRO: Yes. Well, it's like you said. Big, tough, virile guys are not supposed to like other guys. And gay is not going to play in the locker room. You've heard professional athletes say I won't be in a team with somebody's who's gay, I won't dress next to him.
And I think perhaps the fear that perhaps his roommate was going to expose him was too much. This was a troubled guy, though. He has been suspended a few times in the NHL. He changed his name. His name was Mike Jefferson. Now it's Danton. This is a guy that had some issues clearly to begin with.
PHILLIPS: Yes, once again, if it's true, it shows the struggle of coming out, if indeed it turns out to be this way.
Let's talk about Maurice Clarett, now blocked from the NFL draft. What do you think? You have an opinion about young kids going into the NFL and professional sports.
SHAPIRO: You know, as a sports fan, you want to see high school kids stay out of the game, ideally. It's hurt the NBA. It's hurt college basketball.
But the fact is Maurice Clarett, if he can make a living playing football, it's going to be very hard I think in the legal system to keep him away. They may have gotten a stay yesterday. The NFL doesn't want high school kids or young college kids coming in. But, at some point, look, Freddy Adu is doing it in soccer. Tiger Woods did it. You see it in golf all the time. You see it in basketball.
How all of a sudden does the NFL say you're not able to do that? So the notion that two years out of school or three years out of school is the rule is going to hold, I don't think it is going to hold.
PHILLIPS: Well, you talk about how it's affected college ball. How do you think it's damaged pro ball?
SHAPIRO: Well, the fact is, in the pros right now, you have so many -- LeBron James is the exception. LeBron James is a kid that comes out of high school. Even Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady and guys like that took years to evolve. LeBron came out and excelled right away.
That's an aberration. Most times, these high school kids sit on the edge of a bench. They water down the talent in the NBA. You lose the high level of play in college. It's watered down the entire game. You don't see teams with a lot of fluid and a lot of superstars. And, look, football's different. You're not physically able to play at a young age in football, but it's definitely hurt the NBA.
PHILLIPS: We dig our sports, but, come on, you've got to go to college.
SHAPIRO: That's very powerful. If every high school kid had you deliver that message, we dig our sports, but, hey, you got to go college.
(LAUGHTER)
SHAPIRO: Where's the $30, $40 million?
PHILLIPS: I'm going to be the commencement speaker now at every college graduation coming up.
SHAPIRO: Yes, that's good, because why make $40 million when you can hang in a sorority house for four years?
PHILLIPS: Absolutely.
SHAPIRO: That's very powerful.
PHILLIPS: But I'm looking at the long run, Steak.
SHAPIRO: The big picture.
PHILLIPS: The big picture, all right? We wouldn't be here unless we all went to college. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: That $40 million is the long run, Kyra. That's all I'm going to say about that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Unless you blow it all.
O'BRIEN: Well, that's another story.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: You could take a good run with $40 million, though.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: ... take over the sports show.
I guess that does it for LIVE FROM.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: That's very insightful, very insightful. I'm going to use that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Thank you, Steak. Got to cook him on the barbecue.
O'BRIEN: That Steak, he's rare.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Yes, he is.
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's get out of here, shall we?
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