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Interview with Columbine Survivor; Senate Committee in Conflict with White House

Aired April 20, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want him to stay home, please. I know we can't keep him here so he has to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Off to war inside the National Guard, the struggle and strength behind duty, honor and family.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee want to know why the Bush administration is refusing to talk to them about activities going on in Iraq. I'm Sean Callebs in Washington. We'll have that story coming up.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Cleaning up violent videos. New technology has parents applauding and Hollywood giving a big thumbs down.

O'BRIEN: And this is the spot where we say, kids, don't try this at home. We're going up, up and away with the Rocketman.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.

You've just been listening to the Pentagon briefing live with Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld. The flaring war in Iraq and a looming deadline for handing over political power are also the focus of a Senate Foreign Relations hearing this week. CNN's Sean Callebs is following that.

Sean, what do you know?

CALLEBS: Well, Kyra, leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee say they want to know why the administration is less than willing to talk to them about the coalition of the willing or any other U.S.-led activity going on in Iraq.

Amid increased anxiety and concern over ongoing military operations in Iraq, the Bush administration is right now refusing to send any high level official to testify before that committee coming up this Thursday.

Congressional leaders say the questions are many and they include what is being done to quell growing violence, how will the United States work with the U.N. in Iraq after shunning a role for the United Nations for months?

And perhaps the greatest concern, the scheduled June 30 deadline to turn over power to Iraqi leaders. Now Democratic leaders on the Senate committee say refusing to meet with the panel is simply a show of arrogance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: This administration has taken this committee and this Congress for granted. Someone should have them read the Constitution of the United States of America and understand that Article II, there is a legislative body. We do not work for the president. I serve with the president. I served before him and I'll serve after him. And it is outrageous that they're making the same arrogant mistake they made when we held the hearings the first time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLEBS: Senator Biden showing his frustration. Again the administration says it will not send a representative to the Foreign Relations Committee to talk about how it intends to transfer political power in Iraq -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Sean Callebs live from Washington, thank you.

Well, one American in three favors sending more troops to Iraq. That's up from one in five Americans two weeks ago, one in 10 in January. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll has a potential sampling error of 3 percentage points either way. In the political arena, President Bush holds a 5 percentage point lead over John Kerry among likely November voters. We'll crunch many more numbers with Gallup editor- in-chief Frank Newport later in this hour of LIVE FROM...

O'BRIEN: There's new controversy over the timing of President Bush's decision to go to war. A new book by Bob Woodward, you've heard about it, says the decision was made in January of last year. The Bush administration insists it was not made until March just before the war actually started.

Now in his book, Woodward writes Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld met in January of last year with Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, to go over the plans. Woodward appeared on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" last night when Bandar called into the show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM "LARRY KING LIVE")

PRINCE BANDAR BIN SULTAN, SAUDI AMBASSADOR: What he says is accurate. However, there is one sentence that was left out.

KING: And that is?

BANDAR: Both Vice President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld told me before the briefing that the president has not made a decision yet, but here is the plan, and then the rest is accurate.

WOODWARD: Then why would they say, "you can take this to the bank, it is going to happen," and then, as I understand it, the vice president said, "when this starts, Saddam is toast." Is that correct?

BANDAR: That is absolutely correct. But underlined "when." Because my response was, last time we tried this we left Saddam in place. And I don't think anybody in the Middle East would like to try this again if Saddam will stay in place. And that's the rest of the story. So it is accurate except that I was informed that the president had not made the decision yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The Saudi ambassador also denied a suggestion in the book that he made a secret deal with President Bush to lower oil prices just prior to the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM "LARRY KIND LIVE")

BANDAR: We hoped that the oil prices would stay low because that's good for America's economy, but more important, it is good for our economy and the international economy. And this is not -- nothing unusual. President Clinton asked us to keep the prices down in the year 2000. In fact, I can go back to 1979, President Carter asked us to keep the prices down to avoid the malaise. So yes, it is in our interest and in America's interest to keep the prices down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Now even after all this controversy, the Woodward book is now listed on the Bush re-election Web site as "suggested reading."

PHILLIPS: An important case under way. The Supreme Court challenging the legal legs of the Bush administration's sweeping anti- terrorism policies, namely those keeping hundreds terror suspects under lock and key in Guantanamo Bay. Our Bob Franken is in Washington with the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the first of three terrorism cases to make it to the Supreme Court. They test the limitations of presidential power, whether it is absolute or whether there is the ability for the courts to get involved in matters involving the war powers of the president.

This one involved the powers of the court. Does it extend beyond the boundaries of the United States, specifically to the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, part of Cuba even though the United States has exercised absolute control there for over 100 years?

Lawyers for 16 of the detainees charge that they have been denied legal rights that they should have had: the right to have charges presented to them. It was an argument that ran into flak from several of the justices when the lawyer, John Gibbons made the claim that claims by the D.C. Appeals Court, the lower court, that Guantanamo was part of sovereign Cuba, were bogus.

JOHN GIBBONS, ATTORNEY: The court of appeals did rely on some mystical ultimate sovereignty of Cuba over, as we Navy types call it, Gitmo, treating the navy base there as a no-law zone. Now, Guantanamo Navy Base, as I can attest from my year of personal experience, is under complete United States control and has been for a century.

JUSTICE SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, SUPREME COURT: We don't need your personal experience. That's what it says in the treaty. It says complete jurisdiction. Complete jurisdiction and control.

GIBBONS: That's exactly what it says in the lease, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It also says Cuba retains sovereignty.

GIBBONS: It does not say that. It says that if the United States decides to surrender the perpetual lease, Cuba has ultimate sovereignty, whatever that means.

FRANKEN: Solicitor General Theodore Olson, representing the Bush administration, charged that court sovereignty did not extend to Cuba, did not extend to Guantanamo Bay. As a matter of fact, the president has near absolute power when it comes to decisions over enemy combatants made in war. That raised concerns on the part of several justices, in particular Stephen Breyer.

JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, SUPREME COURT: What I'm thinking now, assuming that it's very hard to interpret Isentrager (ph), is that if we go with you, it has a virtue of clarity. There is a clear rule, not a citizen, outside the United States, you don't get your foot in the door. But against you is that same fact. It seems rather contrary to an idea of a Constitution with three branches that the executive would be free to do whatever they want, whatever they want, without a check. That's problem one.

Problem two is that we have several hundred years of British history where the cases interpreting habeas corpus said to the contrary, anyway, and then we have the possibility of really helping you with what you're really worried about, which is undue court interference, by shaping the substantive right to deal with all those problems of the military that led you to begin your talk by reminding us of those problems. So if it's that choice, why not say, sure, you get your foot in the door, prisoners in Guantanamo, and we'll use the substantive rights to work out something that's protective, but practical?

FRANKEN: These are fundamental questions the justices are deciding. The question really is, do the courts have any business at all in the conduct of war or, as Justice Breyer said, does the president in effect have unchecked power?

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: It was a violent episode that shocked the nation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seems like it happened just yesterday. But at other times it seems like it's been many years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Remembering Columbine. We'll talk with the young woman who rebuilt her life after taking a bullet that awful day.

And erasing the violence and sex from Hollywood films. A new technology that gives you more control of what your family watches.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: The test of wills in Iraq, that's Donald Rumsfeld's term for the battles and standoffs that have indeed made April the cruelest month for U.S. forces, who Rumsfeld says are performing well through it all.

Let's check in now with CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Miles.

Well, the secretary finishing a half hour press briefing here in this room. Now initially the topic was Bob Woodward's book, of course, which is making news all across Washington. The secretary saying that in a meeting in Vice President Dick Cheney's office with the Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, that Secretary Rumsfeld said he did not indicate to the Saudi ambassador that the U.S. was about to go to war, that he may have used some language that the U.S. would engage in an operation of some sort against Iraq, but no indication, he said, of any timeframe of any specifics about him saying that they would go to war. Rumsfeld saying it would not have been his place to tell the Saudi ambassador that when the president had not yet made that decision.

But then the briefing was a pretty sober assessment by the secretary of several current matters in Iraq. On the situation in Fallujah, the secretary noting the negotiations do go on to try and bring peace to that city, but he was very sober-minded about the possible outcome. He expressed concern, he said, that the negotiations don't include the insurgents, that the people who are committing the violence are not part of those talks in Fallujah. Here is a bit more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The current state of affairs in Fallujah will not continue indefinitely. Thugs and assassins and former Saddam henchmen will not be allowed to carve out portions of that city and to oppose peace and freedom. The dead-enders threatened by Iraq's progress to self-government may believe they can drive the coalition out through terror and intimidation and foment civil war among Sunnis and Shias or block the path to Iraqi self-rule, but they're badly mistaken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So the secretary putting down a bit of a marker there, expressing his concern about how long this will go on, saying it cannot go on. And also expressing his concern that these negotiations with city leaders in Fallujah and the coalition don't include the people that are committing the violence.

The secretary, Miles, also expressing a pretty sober assessment of the June 30 transition date. He noted it is coming up very rapidly. Still a lot of hope, he said, that the U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi can bring together all the pieces to make that happen. But he noted in some detail there are a number of risks out there about that June 30 date, whether it happens one way or the other -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, a sign outside Columbine High School, Littleton, Colorado, today, reads "a time to remember and a time to hope." It was five years ago that two students killed 12 classmates and a teacher before committing suicide on the campus.

Our Adrian Baschuk looks at how the school and the community are healing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ADRIAN BASCHUK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new "we are columbine" sign. The school's cheer hangs prominently in this school's once bullet-ridden and shrapnel-torn entry way.

FRANK DEANGELIS, PRINCIPAL: I truly believe that if we closed Columbine High School, that Klebold and Harris would have won.

BASCHUK: The school has come a long ways since April 20, 1999.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were wearing all-black clothing, they had shotguns.

BASCUK (on camera): Within minutes of the first shots being fired, locals new crews arrived, some as misinformed as police, which at one point, police transcripts detail, thought there were as many as 12 shooters inside. Live pictures of a school under siege gripped the nation.

(voice-over): Finally at day's end, we learned Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were the sole shooters. A five-year investigation of the shootings made public in February revealed two teens with access to an arsenal of weapons, and as police reports describe, a volatile history of being bullied and violent behavior including death threats Eric Harris made to one-time friend Brooks Brown.

BROOKS BROWN, CLASSMATE: We all knew someone who died. And it was just a horrific day. BASCUK: Today this is Columbine, a new $3.5 million library, refurbished lockers and a renovated cafeteria stand where students once hid under lunch tables and ran for their lives.

DEANGELIS: I think it would have been very difficult for students and staff members to return to a place where so much carnage was. I think our resolve has just been outstanding.

BASCUK: So outstanding, that despite the killings, they are still proud to say, we are columbine.

Adrian Baschuk, CNN, Littleton, Colorado.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Ten of the victims of the Columbine shootings were killed in the school's library. Kasey Ruegsegger, who is joining us from Littleton, Colorado, was there studying. Kasey was shot in the shoulder and in the hand. And it wasn't until two months ago that she was able to go back into the library.

Kasey, I know it is very windy there. Can you hear me OK?

KASEY RUEGSEGGER, COLUMBINE SURVIVOR: Yes, I can hear you OK.

O'BRIEN: All right. What's the operative emotion today, five years later, as you come to this site? Are you angry, are you sad? What's going on in your mind?

RUEGSEGGER: I'm not angry, not sad, more just remembering the people that passed and just remembering what happened and being excited about how far I've come so far.

O'BRIEN: And was it difficult to get beyond anger? Did you ever have that feeling of anger against those two boys?

RUEGSEGGER: I did have some anger but not a lot. I had a lot of support at home and at church with friends. And it was more about just moving on and how I'm going to deal with this in my life and make it positive for me.

O'BRIEN: Five years later, do you think we have any good answers as to why it happened? Do you have any take on that?

RUEGSEGGER: I don't think any of us know why. I think there's a lot of confusion about how somebody like Eric and Dylan could treat somebody else so horribly. I think a lot of things could have changed, parental involvement maybe, more school involvement, but no definite answers.

O'BRIEN: You know, a lot has been said about the warning signs that these two boys exhibited in hindsight. Do you think it could have been prevented if people were a little more alert?

RUEGSEGGER: I think so. I think there was plenty of warning signs with the previous felony charges on them. Maybe they should have been watched a little more in the community. I think so.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Did the police drop the ball? Did their parents, what do you think?

RUEGSEGGER: I personally think the parents could have been more involved. I mean, if I had stuff like that at home, my parents would have known about it and been all over my case about it. But obviously I don't know them and I can't say what happened in their home.

O'BRIEN: Do you wish you had heard from them by now? They haven't said anything publicly.

RUEGSEGGER: Right. It would be nice. I would like to talk to them, not to be angry or to get on their case, but just to know what happened and maybe gain some understanding.

O'BRIEN: Tell us a little bit about your life. You've got a lot of interesting and good things happening. I know you're in school and you're studying to be a nurse. And that decision is somehow linked to what happened five years ago. Explain that.

RUEGSEGGER: I've always enjoyed medical stuff. And after Columbine I've had about eight surgeries. And the medical staff and community has been so great and helped me through such an awful time. So I'm hoping that I can do that for somebody else in their life and help some other family through a really tough time.

O'BRIEN: And you're able to spend some time with something you really love, which is riding horses. Tell us a little bit about that and how that helps you move forward.

RUEGSEGGER: I do. Back after Columbine, I was competing on my horse a lot. And that was my main motivation for healing, physically and emotionally, was getting back on my horse. It took three months, but when I did, it was really exciting and helped me heal a lot.

O'BRIEN: Physically is it difficult for you or have you pretty much healed?

RUEGSEGGER: For now I'm OK. I haven't had surgery for two years. But I do have physical disabilities, limited motion in my right shoulder. I do have painful days still, but in general I'm doing pretty good.

O'BRIEN: Is there a day that goes by over these past five years where you don't think about what happened?

RUEGSEGGER: No. There's not. Some days it seems like it was just yesterday and some days it seems like it was 20 years ago. But I have physical reminders and emotional reminders every day of what happened.

O'BRIEN: My best to you and your family and all of your friends on this anniversary. I know this is a difficult day. But thank you for sharing some time with us. We appreciate it, Kasey Ruegsegger from Littleton. RUEGSEGGER: You're welcome. Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, from farms and offices across America, weekend warriors making the transformation to fulltime soldiers. Ahead on LIVE FROM..., inside the emotions and the training to get ready for the fight in Iraq.

And, it's a man's world, at least if you compare paychecks and a number of other things. We'll crunch some numbers right ahead on LIVE FROM...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 20, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want him to stay home, please. I know we can't keep him here so he has to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Off to war inside the National Guard, the struggle and strength behind duty, honor and family.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee want to know why the Bush administration is refusing to talk to them about activities going on in Iraq. I'm Sean Callebs in Washington. We'll have that story coming up.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Cleaning up violent videos. New technology has parents applauding and Hollywood giving a big thumbs down.

O'BRIEN: And this is the spot where we say, kids, don't try this at home. We're going up, up and away with the Rocketman.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.

You've just been listening to the Pentagon briefing live with Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld. The flaring war in Iraq and a looming deadline for handing over political power are also the focus of a Senate Foreign Relations hearing this week. CNN's Sean Callebs is following that.

Sean, what do you know?

CALLEBS: Well, Kyra, leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee say they want to know why the administration is less than willing to talk to them about the coalition of the willing or any other U.S.-led activity going on in Iraq.

Amid increased anxiety and concern over ongoing military operations in Iraq, the Bush administration is right now refusing to send any high level official to testify before that committee coming up this Thursday.

Congressional leaders say the questions are many and they include what is being done to quell growing violence, how will the United States work with the U.N. in Iraq after shunning a role for the United Nations for months?

And perhaps the greatest concern, the scheduled June 30 deadline to turn over power to Iraqi leaders. Now Democratic leaders on the Senate committee say refusing to meet with the panel is simply a show of arrogance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: This administration has taken this committee and this Congress for granted. Someone should have them read the Constitution of the United States of America and understand that Article II, there is a legislative body. We do not work for the president. I serve with the president. I served before him and I'll serve after him. And it is outrageous that they're making the same arrogant mistake they made when we held the hearings the first time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLEBS: Senator Biden showing his frustration. Again the administration says it will not send a representative to the Foreign Relations Committee to talk about how it intends to transfer political power in Iraq -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Sean Callebs live from Washington, thank you.

Well, one American in three favors sending more troops to Iraq. That's up from one in five Americans two weeks ago, one in 10 in January. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll has a potential sampling error of 3 percentage points either way. In the political arena, President Bush holds a 5 percentage point lead over John Kerry among likely November voters. We'll crunch many more numbers with Gallup editor- in-chief Frank Newport later in this hour of LIVE FROM...

O'BRIEN: There's new controversy over the timing of President Bush's decision to go to war. A new book by Bob Woodward, you've heard about it, says the decision was made in January of last year. The Bush administration insists it was not made until March just before the war actually started.

Now in his book, Woodward writes Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld met in January of last year with Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, to go over the plans. Woodward appeared on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" last night when Bandar called into the show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM "LARRY KING LIVE")

PRINCE BANDAR BIN SULTAN, SAUDI AMBASSADOR: What he says is accurate. However, there is one sentence that was left out.

KING: And that is?

BANDAR: Both Vice President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld told me before the briefing that the president has not made a decision yet, but here is the plan, and then the rest is accurate.

WOODWARD: Then why would they say, "you can take this to the bank, it is going to happen," and then, as I understand it, the vice president said, "when this starts, Saddam is toast." Is that correct?

BANDAR: That is absolutely correct. But underlined "when." Because my response was, last time we tried this we left Saddam in place. And I don't think anybody in the Middle East would like to try this again if Saddam will stay in place. And that's the rest of the story. So it is accurate except that I was informed that the president had not made the decision yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The Saudi ambassador also denied a suggestion in the book that he made a secret deal with President Bush to lower oil prices just prior to the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM "LARRY KIND LIVE")

BANDAR: We hoped that the oil prices would stay low because that's good for America's economy, but more important, it is good for our economy and the international economy. And this is not -- nothing unusual. President Clinton asked us to keep the prices down in the year 2000. In fact, I can go back to 1979, President Carter asked us to keep the prices down to avoid the malaise. So yes, it is in our interest and in America's interest to keep the prices down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Now even after all this controversy, the Woodward book is now listed on the Bush re-election Web site as "suggested reading."

PHILLIPS: An important case under way. The Supreme Court challenging the legal legs of the Bush administration's sweeping anti- terrorism policies, namely those keeping hundreds terror suspects under lock and key in Guantanamo Bay. Our Bob Franken is in Washington with the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the first of three terrorism cases to make it to the Supreme Court. They test the limitations of presidential power, whether it is absolute or whether there is the ability for the courts to get involved in matters involving the war powers of the president.

This one involved the powers of the court. Does it extend beyond the boundaries of the United States, specifically to the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, part of Cuba even though the United States has exercised absolute control there for over 100 years?

Lawyers for 16 of the detainees charge that they have been denied legal rights that they should have had: the right to have charges presented to them. It was an argument that ran into flak from several of the justices when the lawyer, John Gibbons made the claim that claims by the D.C. Appeals Court, the lower court, that Guantanamo was part of sovereign Cuba, were bogus.

JOHN GIBBONS, ATTORNEY: The court of appeals did rely on some mystical ultimate sovereignty of Cuba over, as we Navy types call it, Gitmo, treating the navy base there as a no-law zone. Now, Guantanamo Navy Base, as I can attest from my year of personal experience, is under complete United States control and has been for a century.

JUSTICE SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, SUPREME COURT: We don't need your personal experience. That's what it says in the treaty. It says complete jurisdiction. Complete jurisdiction and control.

GIBBONS: That's exactly what it says in the lease, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It also says Cuba retains sovereignty.

GIBBONS: It does not say that. It says that if the United States decides to surrender the perpetual lease, Cuba has ultimate sovereignty, whatever that means.

FRANKEN: Solicitor General Theodore Olson, representing the Bush administration, charged that court sovereignty did not extend to Cuba, did not extend to Guantanamo Bay. As a matter of fact, the president has near absolute power when it comes to decisions over enemy combatants made in war. That raised concerns on the part of several justices, in particular Stephen Breyer.

JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, SUPREME COURT: What I'm thinking now, assuming that it's very hard to interpret Isentrager (ph), is that if we go with you, it has a virtue of clarity. There is a clear rule, not a citizen, outside the United States, you don't get your foot in the door. But against you is that same fact. It seems rather contrary to an idea of a Constitution with three branches that the executive would be free to do whatever they want, whatever they want, without a check. That's problem one.

Problem two is that we have several hundred years of British history where the cases interpreting habeas corpus said to the contrary, anyway, and then we have the possibility of really helping you with what you're really worried about, which is undue court interference, by shaping the substantive right to deal with all those problems of the military that led you to begin your talk by reminding us of those problems. So if it's that choice, why not say, sure, you get your foot in the door, prisoners in Guantanamo, and we'll use the substantive rights to work out something that's protective, but practical?

FRANKEN: These are fundamental questions the justices are deciding. The question really is, do the courts have any business at all in the conduct of war or, as Justice Breyer said, does the president in effect have unchecked power?

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: It was a violent episode that shocked the nation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seems like it happened just yesterday. But at other times it seems like it's been many years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Remembering Columbine. We'll talk with the young woman who rebuilt her life after taking a bullet that awful day.

And erasing the violence and sex from Hollywood films. A new technology that gives you more control of what your family watches.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: The test of wills in Iraq, that's Donald Rumsfeld's term for the battles and standoffs that have indeed made April the cruelest month for U.S. forces, who Rumsfeld says are performing well through it all.

Let's check in now with CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Miles.

Well, the secretary finishing a half hour press briefing here in this room. Now initially the topic was Bob Woodward's book, of course, which is making news all across Washington. The secretary saying that in a meeting in Vice President Dick Cheney's office with the Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, that Secretary Rumsfeld said he did not indicate to the Saudi ambassador that the U.S. was about to go to war, that he may have used some language that the U.S. would engage in an operation of some sort against Iraq, but no indication, he said, of any timeframe of any specifics about him saying that they would go to war. Rumsfeld saying it would not have been his place to tell the Saudi ambassador that when the president had not yet made that decision.

But then the briefing was a pretty sober assessment by the secretary of several current matters in Iraq. On the situation in Fallujah, the secretary noting the negotiations do go on to try and bring peace to that city, but he was very sober-minded about the possible outcome. He expressed concern, he said, that the negotiations don't include the insurgents, that the people who are committing the violence are not part of those talks in Fallujah. Here is a bit more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The current state of affairs in Fallujah will not continue indefinitely. Thugs and assassins and former Saddam henchmen will not be allowed to carve out portions of that city and to oppose peace and freedom. The dead-enders threatened by Iraq's progress to self-government may believe they can drive the coalition out through terror and intimidation and foment civil war among Sunnis and Shias or block the path to Iraqi self-rule, but they're badly mistaken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So the secretary putting down a bit of a marker there, expressing his concern about how long this will go on, saying it cannot go on. And also expressing his concern that these negotiations with city leaders in Fallujah and the coalition don't include the people that are committing the violence.

The secretary, Miles, also expressing a pretty sober assessment of the June 30 transition date. He noted it is coming up very rapidly. Still a lot of hope, he said, that the U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi can bring together all the pieces to make that happen. But he noted in some detail there are a number of risks out there about that June 30 date, whether it happens one way or the other -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, a sign outside Columbine High School, Littleton, Colorado, today, reads "a time to remember and a time to hope." It was five years ago that two students killed 12 classmates and a teacher before committing suicide on the campus.

Our Adrian Baschuk looks at how the school and the community are healing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ADRIAN BASCHUK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new "we are columbine" sign. The school's cheer hangs prominently in this school's once bullet-ridden and shrapnel-torn entry way.

FRANK DEANGELIS, PRINCIPAL: I truly believe that if we closed Columbine High School, that Klebold and Harris would have won.

BASCHUK: The school has come a long ways since April 20, 1999.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were wearing all-black clothing, they had shotguns.

BASCUK (on camera): Within minutes of the first shots being fired, locals new crews arrived, some as misinformed as police, which at one point, police transcripts detail, thought there were as many as 12 shooters inside. Live pictures of a school under siege gripped the nation.

(voice-over): Finally at day's end, we learned Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were the sole shooters. A five-year investigation of the shootings made public in February revealed two teens with access to an arsenal of weapons, and as police reports describe, a volatile history of being bullied and violent behavior including death threats Eric Harris made to one-time friend Brooks Brown.

BROOKS BROWN, CLASSMATE: We all knew someone who died. And it was just a horrific day. BASCUK: Today this is Columbine, a new $3.5 million library, refurbished lockers and a renovated cafeteria stand where students once hid under lunch tables and ran for their lives.

DEANGELIS: I think it would have been very difficult for students and staff members to return to a place where so much carnage was. I think our resolve has just been outstanding.

BASCUK: So outstanding, that despite the killings, they are still proud to say, we are columbine.

Adrian Baschuk, CNN, Littleton, Colorado.

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O'BRIEN: Ten of the victims of the Columbine shootings were killed in the school's library. Kasey Ruegsegger, who is joining us from Littleton, Colorado, was there studying. Kasey was shot in the shoulder and in the hand. And it wasn't until two months ago that she was able to go back into the library.

Kasey, I know it is very windy there. Can you hear me OK?

KASEY RUEGSEGGER, COLUMBINE SURVIVOR: Yes, I can hear you OK.

O'BRIEN: All right. What's the operative emotion today, five years later, as you come to this site? Are you angry, are you sad? What's going on in your mind?

RUEGSEGGER: I'm not angry, not sad, more just remembering the people that passed and just remembering what happened and being excited about how far I've come so far.

O'BRIEN: And was it difficult to get beyond anger? Did you ever have that feeling of anger against those two boys?

RUEGSEGGER: I did have some anger but not a lot. I had a lot of support at home and at church with friends. And it was more about just moving on and how I'm going to deal with this in my life and make it positive for me.

O'BRIEN: Five years later, do you think we have any good answers as to why it happened? Do you have any take on that?

RUEGSEGGER: I don't think any of us know why. I think there's a lot of confusion about how somebody like Eric and Dylan could treat somebody else so horribly. I think a lot of things could have changed, parental involvement maybe, more school involvement, but no definite answers.

O'BRIEN: You know, a lot has been said about the warning signs that these two boys exhibited in hindsight. Do you think it could have been prevented if people were a little more alert?

RUEGSEGGER: I think so. I think there was plenty of warning signs with the previous felony charges on them. Maybe they should have been watched a little more in the community. I think so.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Did the police drop the ball? Did their parents, what do you think?

RUEGSEGGER: I personally think the parents could have been more involved. I mean, if I had stuff like that at home, my parents would have known about it and been all over my case about it. But obviously I don't know them and I can't say what happened in their home.

O'BRIEN: Do you wish you had heard from them by now? They haven't said anything publicly.

RUEGSEGGER: Right. It would be nice. I would like to talk to them, not to be angry or to get on their case, but just to know what happened and maybe gain some understanding.

O'BRIEN: Tell us a little bit about your life. You've got a lot of interesting and good things happening. I know you're in school and you're studying to be a nurse. And that decision is somehow linked to what happened five years ago. Explain that.

RUEGSEGGER: I've always enjoyed medical stuff. And after Columbine I've had about eight surgeries. And the medical staff and community has been so great and helped me through such an awful time. So I'm hoping that I can do that for somebody else in their life and help some other family through a really tough time.

O'BRIEN: And you're able to spend some time with something you really love, which is riding horses. Tell us a little bit about that and how that helps you move forward.

RUEGSEGGER: I do. Back after Columbine, I was competing on my horse a lot. And that was my main motivation for healing, physically and emotionally, was getting back on my horse. It took three months, but when I did, it was really exciting and helped me heal a lot.

O'BRIEN: Physically is it difficult for you or have you pretty much healed?

RUEGSEGGER: For now I'm OK. I haven't had surgery for two years. But I do have physical disabilities, limited motion in my right shoulder. I do have painful days still, but in general I'm doing pretty good.

O'BRIEN: Is there a day that goes by over these past five years where you don't think about what happened?

RUEGSEGGER: No. There's not. Some days it seems like it was just yesterday and some days it seems like it was 20 years ago. But I have physical reminders and emotional reminders every day of what happened.

O'BRIEN: My best to you and your family and all of your friends on this anniversary. I know this is a difficult day. But thank you for sharing some time with us. We appreciate it, Kasey Ruegsegger from Littleton. RUEGSEGGER: You're welcome. Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, from farms and offices across America, weekend warriors making the transformation to fulltime soldiers. Ahead on LIVE FROM..., inside the emotions and the training to get ready for the fight in Iraq.

And, it's a man's world, at least if you compare paychecks and a number of other things. We'll crunch some numbers right ahead on LIVE FROM...

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