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Should Pentagon Allow Coffin Pictures?
Aired April 23, 2004 - 13:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: They're touching, moving scenes of sacrifice and devotion, but should they be kept under wraps? Controversy is brewing over the Pentagon's policy prohibiting images of flag-draped coffins from being shown.
Our Barbara Starr brings us the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: With quiet dignity and military respect, caskets arrive at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, troops killed in Iraq, now on the final journey back to their families. Ceremonies repeated more than 500 times since the war began. A flag unfolded over a casket, a gentle touch smoothing the corner. But these extraordinary pictures were never supposed to be seen.
The Air Force released more than 300 photographs to this private anti-government secrecy Web site, pictures the Air Force says were meant only for history. A Defense Department spokesman says the release of the pictures under the Freedom of Information Act violated military policy. The entire matter is under review.
Since the war in Iraq, the Pentagon has strictly enforced its long-standing policy of not allowing media coverage of caskets arriving at Dover. Officials say it is out of deference to grieving families, not an effort to keep the news media from covering the mounting death toll.
For the families, news coverage is always difficult. Some do allow cameras at funerals. One group, the National Military Family Association, had this to say: "We believe the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families and would urge everyone else to be sensitive to them as well."
The issue remains controversial.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Look, these young men are heroes. This is the last long ride home. These young men and women are heroes. And the idea that they're essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.
STARR: Now a private contractor has been fired by her employer after taking this picture of 20 flag-draped coffins going home from Iraq earlier this month, a picture that appeared in "The Seattle Times." But for those who gave the last full measure of devotion, there is a final salute, a final thank you from the comrades who brought them home.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, insensitive intrusion or a display of reverence for America's fallen sons and daughters? We're going to take up the debate surrounding these moving images with our guests in Washington today, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis, retired from the U.S. Army. He thinks the pictures should be seen. Jack Spencer is with the Heritage Foundation. He says the Pentagon is right to shield the remains.
Gentlemen, thank you both for being here.
LT. COL. ROBERT MAGINNIS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you.
JACK SPENCER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Bob, let's talk about why we should be able to see these images plus more.
MAGINNIS: Yes, in the lead-in, they're classified as heroes. They are heroes. They're coming back to a nation that sent them to war. And that nation needs to mourn. You know, the courts have upheld the policy. So if they want to have the policy as it is, you know, that's something that the administration's going to have to decide upon.
But you know, I think when you bring back a coffin rather than a black-and-white name appearing in a newspaper, it communicates something very different to the average American. This is not a Nintendo game. This is real people sacrificing for the good of this nation. And our country sent them there.
And we have to also keep into account that a lot of the people in the political class never served in the military and even fewer served in combat. So they have to be held accountable by this good nation in the event that we continue to stay at war and more bodies come back to their loved ones.
PHILLIPS: Jack, you see these pictures, these coffins with the flags, you see fellow soldiers saluting the dead there. Isn't this a reminder for all of us about the cost of war?
SPENCER: It is a reminder. But I think that we have to show deference to the families in this situation. And I think we need to also remember that the Pentagon does not try to hide the number of people fallen in combat. If you look on the CNN Web site, you have the names and pictures, sometimes short biographies of these people.
So the information is out there. I agree with Colonel Maginnis that people in Congress need to be held accountable for these things. But I think in this situation it's very important to really make it as easy for the families as we possibly can.
And the families do have the -- they can make the decision to allow cameras or allow press coverage of things once their loved ones have been returned.
PHILLIPS: You bring up a good point about the families. I want to read an e-mail that we got today, Jack and Bob. This came from Rome (ph), Georgia. Jan (ph) said: "I received my flag-draped coffin with my son in it last week. Plenty of pictures have been taken of his and it's been aired nationwide. I have no problem with this. To me it is a tribute to our fallen soldiers, that people do care. Our motto has become 'remember the fallen because freedom isn't free.'" If we didn't see these images, would we become less sensitive to the cost of war, Bob?
MAGINNIS: I think so. You know, I was in Iraq in the fall, and we flew out of there in a C-130 in the darkened night of Baghdad, and a couple days later a bunch of congressmen were in a similar flight but they had two coffins in the tail section where the cargo was. There wasn't a word spoken except out of necessity among those congressmen. They were humbled by the sacrifice of those young soldiers.
And I think this nation, who has sent those 500-plus that have been killed in combat in Iraq, you know, we need to mourn, we need to recognize that these are not faceless individuals paying this ultimate sacrifice but, you know -- and in fact, there may be more to come.
Just like Pat Tillman paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, you know, this war that the president promises is going to be very long, we need to recognize, moms and dads out there, that your sons and daughters may be required. And the politicians need to convince us that in fact this is our country's future at stake if we don't sustain this effort.
PHILLIPS: Bob, you bring up an interesting point about the politicians. Jack, let me get you to respond to this. There are so many politicians right now making decisions about war that have never served, have never spent time in the military, their sons and daughters aren't in the military. So do they need to recognize here that lives are on the line? These images affect public opinion. They affect politics. They affect decisions that are being made politically.
SPENCER: Well, they'd better recognize it, otherwise they shouldn't be doing what they're doing right now. We have an all- volunteer force, and I think we have had one -- that we have had one is largely why so few people have actually served in Congress.
I think whenever we talk, though, about the lasting images, I think if we have these images on the television day in and day out, then we become desensitized. And what we have now, however, is that snapshot, the few images that became available over the past couple of days. So if what we're looking to do here, if the reason we want these images available, is to remind people, I think that having this snapshot of a few days of images available, that will serve as the reminder to the American public rather than seeing them day in and day out. Then perhaps we would become desensitized to them.
PHILLIPS: Bob, are just snapshots OK? I'm just recalling what happened in Mogadishu, remember seeing those pictures and the dead bodies that reminded us so much of what we saw in Fallujah with the pictures of the bodies of the civilians. You know, it does affect not only public opinion but policy and political decisions.
MAGINNIS: Well, it clearly must affect public opinion. These people are coming home in boxes. Their families are grieving. They've lost fathers. They've lost, you know, sons and daughters. The reality is that, you know, when you think of the USS Cole in October of 2000, most of us think of those 17 flag-draped coffins coming back to Dover. That's the lasting image -- and the hole in the ship as well.
Also Ronald Reagan in 1983, the Beirut bombing, hundreds of coffins coming back. There was a price to be paid. You know, I've gone to some military funerals in this past year, and I wasn't impressed totally until I saw the casket, you know, and I saw the grieving parents.
You know, I recognized that was my friend in there, that there was a price that had to be paid. You know, not seeing the obituary in the local paper, that's not good enough. You know, the reality is that our politicians, our country is paying a very high price for the 3000 that we lost on 9/11, and do we need to continue paying that price? We need to ask ourselves that every time those young men and women come home in boxes.
PHILLIPS: Jack, finally, you know, critics say the Pentagon is trying to hide images of the war and therefore these policies are in place. Do you agree with that?
SPENCER: No. I mean, if the Pentagon is trying to hide images of the war, we wouldn't see what we do see, which is the numbers. They release the names and the faces of those who are fallen. I think in this particular circumstance it's important to show deference to the families. And that's the bottom line here. And it's not the same as the one-off incident, which was the Cole.
Those coffins coming in were the direct result of that particular incident. We have the images of the coffins now with regard to Iraq. But we need to show deference to the families. And to compare the images and how it affected policy during Mogadishu I don't think is fair. The fact is the United States had absolutely no national security imperative in Mogadishu.
So people do ask themselves, why are our young men dying in the streets of Mogadishu when we have no reason to be there? That's not the case in Iraq. America understands why we're in Iraq for the most part.
PHILLIPS: Jack Spencer, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis, gentlemen, thank you so much.
MAGINNIS: Thank you. PHILLIPS: Once again, that quote from Jan from Rome, Georgia, as we go to break: "Remember the fallen because freedom isn't free." From the mouth of a mother who lost her son in the war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MARKET REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Coming up next in our next hour of LIVE FROM..., an increasing amount of ambush attacks in Iraq. How could U.S. forces avoid the traps? We'll talk military strategy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 23, 2004 - 13:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: They're touching, moving scenes of sacrifice and devotion, but should they be kept under wraps? Controversy is brewing over the Pentagon's policy prohibiting images of flag-draped coffins from being shown.
Our Barbara Starr brings us the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: With quiet dignity and military respect, caskets arrive at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, troops killed in Iraq, now on the final journey back to their families. Ceremonies repeated more than 500 times since the war began. A flag unfolded over a casket, a gentle touch smoothing the corner. But these extraordinary pictures were never supposed to be seen.
The Air Force released more than 300 photographs to this private anti-government secrecy Web site, pictures the Air Force says were meant only for history. A Defense Department spokesman says the release of the pictures under the Freedom of Information Act violated military policy. The entire matter is under review.
Since the war in Iraq, the Pentagon has strictly enforced its long-standing policy of not allowing media coverage of caskets arriving at Dover. Officials say it is out of deference to grieving families, not an effort to keep the news media from covering the mounting death toll.
For the families, news coverage is always difficult. Some do allow cameras at funerals. One group, the National Military Family Association, had this to say: "We believe the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families and would urge everyone else to be sensitive to them as well."
The issue remains controversial.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Look, these young men are heroes. This is the last long ride home. These young men and women are heroes. And the idea that they're essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.
STARR: Now a private contractor has been fired by her employer after taking this picture of 20 flag-draped coffins going home from Iraq earlier this month, a picture that appeared in "The Seattle Times." But for those who gave the last full measure of devotion, there is a final salute, a final thank you from the comrades who brought them home.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, insensitive intrusion or a display of reverence for America's fallen sons and daughters? We're going to take up the debate surrounding these moving images with our guests in Washington today, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis, retired from the U.S. Army. He thinks the pictures should be seen. Jack Spencer is with the Heritage Foundation. He says the Pentagon is right to shield the remains.
Gentlemen, thank you both for being here.
LT. COL. ROBERT MAGINNIS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you.
JACK SPENCER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Bob, let's talk about why we should be able to see these images plus more.
MAGINNIS: Yes, in the lead-in, they're classified as heroes. They are heroes. They're coming back to a nation that sent them to war. And that nation needs to mourn. You know, the courts have upheld the policy. So if they want to have the policy as it is, you know, that's something that the administration's going to have to decide upon.
But you know, I think when you bring back a coffin rather than a black-and-white name appearing in a newspaper, it communicates something very different to the average American. This is not a Nintendo game. This is real people sacrificing for the good of this nation. And our country sent them there.
And we have to also keep into account that a lot of the people in the political class never served in the military and even fewer served in combat. So they have to be held accountable by this good nation in the event that we continue to stay at war and more bodies come back to their loved ones.
PHILLIPS: Jack, you see these pictures, these coffins with the flags, you see fellow soldiers saluting the dead there. Isn't this a reminder for all of us about the cost of war?
SPENCER: It is a reminder. But I think that we have to show deference to the families in this situation. And I think we need to also remember that the Pentagon does not try to hide the number of people fallen in combat. If you look on the CNN Web site, you have the names and pictures, sometimes short biographies of these people.
So the information is out there. I agree with Colonel Maginnis that people in Congress need to be held accountable for these things. But I think in this situation it's very important to really make it as easy for the families as we possibly can.
And the families do have the -- they can make the decision to allow cameras or allow press coverage of things once their loved ones have been returned.
PHILLIPS: You bring up a good point about the families. I want to read an e-mail that we got today, Jack and Bob. This came from Rome (ph), Georgia. Jan (ph) said: "I received my flag-draped coffin with my son in it last week. Plenty of pictures have been taken of his and it's been aired nationwide. I have no problem with this. To me it is a tribute to our fallen soldiers, that people do care. Our motto has become 'remember the fallen because freedom isn't free.'" If we didn't see these images, would we become less sensitive to the cost of war, Bob?
MAGINNIS: I think so. You know, I was in Iraq in the fall, and we flew out of there in a C-130 in the darkened night of Baghdad, and a couple days later a bunch of congressmen were in a similar flight but they had two coffins in the tail section where the cargo was. There wasn't a word spoken except out of necessity among those congressmen. They were humbled by the sacrifice of those young soldiers.
And I think this nation, who has sent those 500-plus that have been killed in combat in Iraq, you know, we need to mourn, we need to recognize that these are not faceless individuals paying this ultimate sacrifice but, you know -- and in fact, there may be more to come.
Just like Pat Tillman paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, you know, this war that the president promises is going to be very long, we need to recognize, moms and dads out there, that your sons and daughters may be required. And the politicians need to convince us that in fact this is our country's future at stake if we don't sustain this effort.
PHILLIPS: Bob, you bring up an interesting point about the politicians. Jack, let me get you to respond to this. There are so many politicians right now making decisions about war that have never served, have never spent time in the military, their sons and daughters aren't in the military. So do they need to recognize here that lives are on the line? These images affect public opinion. They affect politics. They affect decisions that are being made politically.
SPENCER: Well, they'd better recognize it, otherwise they shouldn't be doing what they're doing right now. We have an all- volunteer force, and I think we have had one -- that we have had one is largely why so few people have actually served in Congress.
I think whenever we talk, though, about the lasting images, I think if we have these images on the television day in and day out, then we become desensitized. And what we have now, however, is that snapshot, the few images that became available over the past couple of days. So if what we're looking to do here, if the reason we want these images available, is to remind people, I think that having this snapshot of a few days of images available, that will serve as the reminder to the American public rather than seeing them day in and day out. Then perhaps we would become desensitized to them.
PHILLIPS: Bob, are just snapshots OK? I'm just recalling what happened in Mogadishu, remember seeing those pictures and the dead bodies that reminded us so much of what we saw in Fallujah with the pictures of the bodies of the civilians. You know, it does affect not only public opinion but policy and political decisions.
MAGINNIS: Well, it clearly must affect public opinion. These people are coming home in boxes. Their families are grieving. They've lost fathers. They've lost, you know, sons and daughters. The reality is that, you know, when you think of the USS Cole in October of 2000, most of us think of those 17 flag-draped coffins coming back to Dover. That's the lasting image -- and the hole in the ship as well.
Also Ronald Reagan in 1983, the Beirut bombing, hundreds of coffins coming back. There was a price to be paid. You know, I've gone to some military funerals in this past year, and I wasn't impressed totally until I saw the casket, you know, and I saw the grieving parents.
You know, I recognized that was my friend in there, that there was a price that had to be paid. You know, not seeing the obituary in the local paper, that's not good enough. You know, the reality is that our politicians, our country is paying a very high price for the 3000 that we lost on 9/11, and do we need to continue paying that price? We need to ask ourselves that every time those young men and women come home in boxes.
PHILLIPS: Jack, finally, you know, critics say the Pentagon is trying to hide images of the war and therefore these policies are in place. Do you agree with that?
SPENCER: No. I mean, if the Pentagon is trying to hide images of the war, we wouldn't see what we do see, which is the numbers. They release the names and the faces of those who are fallen. I think in this particular circumstance it's important to show deference to the families. And that's the bottom line here. And it's not the same as the one-off incident, which was the Cole.
Those coffins coming in were the direct result of that particular incident. We have the images of the coffins now with regard to Iraq. But we need to show deference to the families. And to compare the images and how it affected policy during Mogadishu I don't think is fair. The fact is the United States had absolutely no national security imperative in Mogadishu.
So people do ask themselves, why are our young men dying in the streets of Mogadishu when we have no reason to be there? That's not the case in Iraq. America understands why we're in Iraq for the most part.
PHILLIPS: Jack Spencer, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis, gentlemen, thank you so much.
MAGINNIS: Thank you. PHILLIPS: Once again, that quote from Jan from Rome, Georgia, as we go to break: "Remember the fallen because freedom isn't free." From the mouth of a mother who lost her son in the war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MARKET REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Coming up next in our next hour of LIVE FROM..., an increasing amount of ambush attacks in Iraq. How could U.S. forces avoid the traps? We'll talk military strategy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
