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Live From...
Fallujah Under Bombing by U.S.
Aired April 27, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: While pool reporter Karl Penhaul takes a breather there, and he's been doing extraordinary work there, keeping us up to date on what's going on in Fallujah, let's tell you a little bit about what we know about what's going on.
First of all, hovering overhead here is an AC-130 gunship called the Specter. There you see -- that's just a picture we pulled off the Federation of American Scientists web site.
But basically, it flies in a counterclockwise direction, or I should say -- excuse me, clockwise. No, it is counterclockwise. Apologize. And is able to put a tremendous amount of fire power in a very precise way down on the ground and is able to differentiate between, the term in the military is friendlies and the enemy, and thus is used in these types of situations when you have urban combat scenario.
Now, let's bring in somebody who knows a little bit about -- a little something about this, Mario Mancuso, former special operations person.
Mr. Mancuso, good to have you with us.
MARIO MANCUSO, FORMER SPECIAL OPS COMMANDER: Oh, good to be here. Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Just based on what you're seeing and hearing here from Karl Penhaul, the pool reporter on the scene there, try to fill in some blanks for us on what the strategy might be here right now.
MANCUSO: Well, first of all, I'd like to refer to something Karl said about a psy-op team using loudspeakers. The two missions that they were probably on which Karl referenced are incredibly important to keep in mind.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: And just so we don't lose viewers, psy-ops is psychological operations, which is...
MANCUSO: That's correct.
O'BRIEN: It should be obvious what that is. Go ahead.
MANCUSO: Yes. And they are tactical psy-op teams, which means they work alongside maneuver units, infantry units in these kinds of combat environments.
Two missions they're doing right now, probably we don't know this but this is speculation, but I think it's a good guess. A, they are telling civilians probably to stay indoors and to keep themselves safe. B, there might be an intimidation aspect to the insurgents. The fact that there's an AC-130 Spectre gunship -- and I'll repeat something that you said that it's critical for your viewers to understand -- this weapons system is a fire support platform. It can place a tremendous amount of heavy fire accurate on the first round.
O'BRIEN: Of course, that's a key thing.
We're going to go back to Karl Penhaul now and we're going to ask Mr. Mancuso to stand by for us.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we've been seeing for about the last hour from our position on a small Marine base, we're looking south to a position about 800 yards, one kilometer. So we're talking in terms about three-quarters of a mile.
We've been seeing an AC-130 Spectre gunships pounding two positions, two positions, suspected Iraqi insurgent positions. The AC-130 gunship has been circling around in the sky now. On the first rounds, we saw approximately 20 or 25 rounds being launched from the aircraft and then exploding with flashes and sparks and then flames into the ground. The AC-130 Spectre gunship then did another round and hit another position, possibly 150 yards away from the first, again, between 20 and 25 rounds, though sometimes it's a little difficult to count as the action is unfolding, but again, in that region 20, 25 rounds exploding on the ground there, sending showers of sparks into the air and also flames.
Those flames now as you can see appear to have died down somewhat. There is a little bit of an afterglow that we can see there, but for a while there a very heavy glow and thick, thick black plumes of smoke rising into the night sky. Marines on the ground here at our position at a small base, as I say, on the northwest edge of Fallujah are telling us that they're they were possibly .105- millimeter Howitzer cannon rounds that the Spectre gunship was sending in to hit those targets.
We've see also some tracer fire from Marines positions being fired in that direction, but no firm word on exactly what those positions may have been. Again, the role of this Spectre gunship will be to patrol the night sky using sophisticated vision and listening equipment. And then if it detects anything that it believes may be insurgent activity, then to send in a heavy array of the weaponry that it carries.
It carries again, as I say, these .105-millimeter cannons. It also carries machine guns and various other types of rockets and missiles, some of them really quite secret. But because this aircraft is most likely an Air Force aircraft and the forces on the ground here that we are with right now are Marines, then no specific indication of precisely what those positions may have been. But this attack, this attack on suspected insurgent positions comes a day after the Marines that we are currently based with were involved in very heavy gun battles with Iraqi insurgents. That occurred as a Marine platoon from Echo Company pushed out from its small base across a cemetery and took up positions in two abandoned houses about 200 yards away. They've been in that position for about four or five hours before Iraqi insurgents began to mass on the edges and began sending in rockets, mortars, grenades and automatic weapons fire into that -- into those buildings.
In that firefight, we are told one Marine died and nine others were wounded, three of them we understand seriously. As a result of that, the Marines have obviously continued to be very vigilant for Iraqi insurgent activity. This area of northwest Fallujah has been one of the most contentious in the last two weeks or so since in fact a cease-fire was agreed between coalition authorities and the civic and religious leaders of Fallujah.
But Marine commanders say that the insurgents themselves have not listened to those civic and religious leaders and that they've repeatedly violated the cease-fire regularly on a more than daily basis sending in rocket fire, mortar fire and sniper fire into Marine positions. We've also been hearing today from coalition authorities in Baghdad about the prospect of the start of joint patrols between coalition forces and Iraqi -- newly-created Iraqi security forces, though, on the ground here in this northwest edge of Fallujah, Marine commanders have said that will not be possible for the time being because of the heavy insurgent activity in the area.
They've given no timeline for when those joint patrols could begin. They're just saying for the time being they fear if patrols at any kind, coalition or joint patrols are sent out, they feel that those patrols would be badly shot up, would be badly engaged in a very heavy firefight, and so for that reason, aren't going about any routine patrols.
Now, some of the sounds that you possibly won't be able to pick up from the camera microphones that we have running at the moment are some of the sounds coming from the many mosques in Fallujah. Probably from one or two of the mosques we can hear songs and chants, a little unusual at this late hour, songs and chants that were going on a little before the attacks on these two positions south of us, but seemed to have picked up since then.
Unclear what those songs and chants, what the imams and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are chanting and singing, unclear also weather that may be a response, a response to these coalition attacks, unclear whether there is any relation there. Certainly, before these attacks, possibly 20 minutes before those attacks started, what we did hear were the Marine psy-ops teams doing the rounds in some of the streets in the area that they control.
Those psy-ops teams, that stands for psychological operations, would have been doing those rounds possibly for two things. They were certainly sending out messages in Arabic that we heard clearly, but typically they'll operate on two levels, one level to try and spook out the insurgents, to try and play mind games with them.
In one of the broadcasts, in fact, we heard earlier, there was a tape of laughing. And we understand that one of the messages earlier was calling on the insurgents to come out and fight. And then there was a tape recording of laughing. This latest tape recording, though, that we heard being played by the psy-ops teams, unclear what exactly that was. It could have also been a warning to civilian population that coalition activity may be imminent.
And certainly about 20 minutes after those psy-ops calls went out, we did see this AC-130 Spectre gunship targeting those two positions towards where our camera is still pointing. That said, the flames that we initially saw, the black plumes of smoke, have now died down. From our position now, very difficult to see anything of what went on there now. Also impossible from this distance to see what the -- what the result of that pounding may have been.
But certainly from where we were, we heard the first position being hit with possibly 20 or 25 cannon rounds. A second position was also hit with again, possibly 20 or 25 cannon rounds. Marines on the ground telling us that those were likely .105-millimeter Howitzer rounds. Certainly with that quantity one would expect a large -- an extensive damage on the ground.
We did at one stage see some secondary explosions coming up from those positions. That may be an indication that flammable items were stored on the ground in those positions. One might think that possibly ammunition or weapons, but certainly no confirmation in that sense from any Marine commanders that the time.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: If you're just tuning in, once again, live pictures out of Fallujah, pool reporter Karl Penhaul bringing us all the latest information as U.S. Marines go up against Iraqi insurgents there in Fallujah. It's been a very volatile area over the past number of weeks, as you know, and now for the first time we are getting these pictures, live pictures, a number of things that you're hearing, explosions, attacks and raids.
The C-130 gunship, Spectre, is the Air Force aircraft that was coming through in there, providing close air support to the U.S. Marines on the ground as they battle these insurgents.
Jamie McIntyre working the story from the Pentagon.
Jamie, are you able to add anything to what Karl has been saying with regard to the close air support and to what's happening exactly on the ground?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the tactical situation on the ground is something that the Pentagon is not up to speed on that the moment.
They say these are decisions that are being made by local commanders in Fallujah. But they pointed out here today at the Pentagon that even though there has been a softening of the position over the last couple of days, that is the tough talk of last week when they were talking about a Marine offensive of Fallujah beginning within days was replaced over the last couple of days with talk about joint Iraqi-U.S. patrols and more negotiations with intermediaries in Fallujah.
At the same time today, the Pentagon was underscoring that the U.S. was not backing off from its resolve to take care of the problem in of the insurgents in Fallujah one way or the other, a sort of iron fist in a velvet glove approach. Today, the joint chiefs chairman put it in a word very simply. He said, it's worth a try in continuing negotiations -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jamie, hold those thoughts. We are going to go back to Karl Penhaul there in Fallujah. We'll come back to you.
PENHAUL: ... expected insurgent positions were pounded by an AC- 130 Spectre gunship, those poundings by what we understand were .105- millimeter Howitzer cannons that sent up flames and showers of sparks from the ground.
Fallujah's night sky was filled with plumes of black smoke. Unclear from Marine commanders here what those positions may have been, but we're hearing from the Al-Jazeera Arabic broadcast that on the ground there those positions were in the al-Jolan district. That's a district that the Marines here refer to the Jolan Heights. That's in the northwest corner of the city of Fallujah, a population of about 300,000 people. Many of those civilians now obviously have left the city, but as I say, Al-Jazeera describing this as a hit on the al-Jolan district of the city.
And this was notorious for resistance activity, for the presence, for the heavy presence of Iraqi insurgents. Certainly, that is the belief of Marine commanders, that this area of northwest Fallujah is the most heavily populated by insurgent fighters. That is why it would have been targeted by the AC-130 gunships.
Now, as we were reporting earlier, there has been the sound of songs and chants coming from several of the many mosques here in Fallujah. Some of those chants and songs were going on before this pounding started, but certainly those sounds have picked up since the coalition attack on those two positions.
Al-Jazeera, at this stage, reporting that those chants are from the imams of those mosques making public broadcasts and reading verses from the holy Koran reading verses across their public broadcast systems so that the civilian population who are still left in the city can hear and also possibly so that insurgent fighters can also hear.
Unclear, though. Now the flames have died down. The smoke also appears to have died down from those two positions. And from our position, which is approximately 800 yards or one kilometer from the site of those two attacks, impossible to see the extent of any damage there, but certainly from the number of rounds that went in and from the very extensive flames and smoke that went up initially, one may suspect that the damage has been heavy.
The AC-130 Spectre gunship on the first round pounded the first position there with probably 20 or 25 cannon rounds. It circled through the sky again, several times returned and pounded a second position approximately 150 yards away from the first again with anything between 20 and 25 cannon rounds.
That is, we're hearing, in the al-Jolan district of Fallujah. That's what the Marines here call the Jolan Heights of Fallujah. It's one the northwest sectors of Fallujah, everything here pretty close by. As I say, the site of those explosions where the Spectre gunship was pounding about a kilometer, three-quarters of a mile from where we are now. If one then follows the skyline as we're looking at it right from there, about a kilometer or a kilometer and a half is the metal bridge that Marines call the Brooklyn Bridge.
Obviously, that's not the name they call it in Fallujah. That's the name that the Marines have given it, but that the metal bridge where at the end of March, those four U.S. contractors were hung after they were attacked by insurgent forces inside the city of Fallujah. Now, as I say, that bridge approximately 1.5 kilometers, about a mile of the site of those two explosions looking right across your television screens from the sight of those two explosions.
A sound that perhaps you won't be able to hear on the camera microphones, but certainly the imams, the religious leaders in those mosques continuing to cite and recite verses from the Koran. Fallujah, Fallujah to the people who live here, but also to many other Iraqis is also known as the city of mosques, that for the very large number of mosques in this city, normal population about 300,000.
And initially we heard those Koranic verses being recited from one or two mosques, possibly. Now we can hear that those chants are coming from several more of the mosques, what seems to be a reaction to the coalition pounding of these two positions. Marines commanders, though, at this stage haven't been able to specify for us the precise nature of those two targets, but in general terms, suspected Iraqi insurgent positions.
This coalition strike does come the day after a Marine platoon from the base where we are positioned now was involved in a heavy gun battle with Iraqi insurgents. That gun battle occurred about 200 meters, 200 yards from the position where we are now. One Marine platoon from Echo Company pushed out and occupied two buildings on the far side of a cemetery there here is close by.
They occupied those houses in the space of four or five hours, during which time Iraqi insurgents massed around that building and began firing in rockets, mortars, automatic weapons and then also lobbing in grenades. A very heavy gun battle that in total lasted for about three or three and a half hours and in the course of that fight, one Marine died and nine others were wounded, we understand three of those pretty seriously in the words of the company commander.
And so, as a result of that, the AC-130 Spectre gunship has been continually flying over, mostly at nighttime. That's when it operates most effectively. And as it spots positions that they believe could be threatened positions, they have been pounding them. The AC-130, the Spectre gunship, as it's called, is equipped with a formidable array of weaponry, cannons, machine guns, various rockets and missiles. It's also equipped with very sophisticated vision and listening equipment.
The sound from those mosques dying down a little now and certainly no more signs of the Marine psychological operations team that was doing the rounds earlier on, as they were broadcasting messages in Arabic, unclear whether there was a warning to civilian population about imminent coalition activity or whether that may have been messages trying to spook out the insurgents, trying to play mind games with the insurgents.
Camera?
PHILLIPS: Well, it looks like we just lost our signal there. We'll try and redial with the videophone with the live pictures there from Fallujah.
While we try and get that connection, once again, we're going to go to our Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Jamie, while we're trying to get Karl back up and get those live pictures back up, what can you tell us about what's taking place from the ground and from the air there in Fallujah?
MCINTYRE: Well, the United States is very concerned about what's going on in Fallujah.
And it's seen in many ways as a sort of a pivotal point in the war against the insurgency. Presumably, what's going on now is in response to a direct threat in Fallujah, because the United States is still technically in this very tenuous cease-fire, cease-fire in name only because U.S. Marines continue to take fire from insurgents within the city.
But when they see a threat, they are authorized to take action. What we saw in the live pictures earlier was the result of an attack from an AC-130 gunship, a modified C-130 with a .105-millimeter cannon out the side that has the capacity to really level a building if you direct that cannon fire for any length of time at one location.
So, presumably, there was a threat there that the Marines had taken out. As Karl Penhaul, the CNN reporter who is serving as the military pool reporter there, point out, this followed what was a psychological operations patrol by U.S. Marines using loudspeakers in Arabic to communicate with the local population.
Earlier today, the Pentagon talked a little bit about what was going to in Fallujah in the sense that they want to make sure that they have exhausted every possibility for a solution that would be short of an all-out Marine offensive. The U.S. is well aware that the urban combat that will ensue if the Marines begin to move through the city will result in casualties on both sides, including unintended civilian casualties, something the U.S. would like to avoid. But, at this point, they really haven't seen much from the insurgents that would indicate a willingness to come to some sort of arrangement. They have spurned the request to turn in heavy weapons. They have not let up in the fire against U.S. Marines. And this incident now seems to underscore that.
Again, though, earlier at the Pentagon, both Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers explained the thinking behind waiting at least a few more days before starting a major offensive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The people on the ground have indicated to General Myers and to me that they believe what they're doing and the pace at which they're doing it is net in the interest of their goals.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: That it's worth a try.
RUMSFELD: It's worth a try.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PENHAUL: Worth a try, those were the words from the Pentagon. And, again, what we're seeing indicates that at this point there's no indication that there will be a peaceful negotiated settlement to what's going on in Fallujah -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Our Jamie McIntyre there live from the Pentagon, thank you.
As you talk about a peaceful solution, Jamie, definitely the focus of U.S. Marines there, right now, as we're looking at live pictures, heavy fire coming from a U.S. aerial gunship is what you saw. Actually, it lit up the night sky there. It's calmed down a bit, but we haven't stopped talking about the AC-130 gunship that literally began pounding certain targets in the Iraqi city of Fallujah for a while, a number of hours.
Of course, this comes a day after a major clash between the Marines and the insurgents there on the ground.
With us on the phone, Lieutenant Colonel T.G. Kyrazis with the Air Force, knows a lot about the AC-130 Spectre.
Colonel Kyrazis, tell us first of all about the AC-130 and why this type of aircraft would be used in a situation like this for close air support for the Marines.
LT. COL. T.G. KYRAZIS, U.S. AIR FORCE: The C-130 is the aircraft that is based upon. It's normally just a transport aircraft, four- engine turbo prop and not extremely maneuverable, but it's a great platform. And what they've done with this variant is, they've put a bunch of high-powered weaponry. And unlike most aircraft that shoot out of the front, this thing shoots out the side. It has got a huge .105- millimeter Howitzer, a couple of .20-millimeter Gatling type guns, six barrels. And those things fire about up to 100 rounds a second. And also it has got a .40-millimeter cannon.
Since it's not extremely maneuverable, it can only be used in what we call more of a low-intensity conflict or one where we actually have control of the air and also any threats of the ground, for example, surface-to-air threats. It can loiter over a target for a long amount of time and put an incredible amount of firepower. The .105-millimeter cannon can blow apart bunkers, depending on the ammunition they use. And those Gatling guns, with their incredible rate of fire, can just put a lot of the .20-millimeter ammunition down on lots of softer targets.
PHILLIPS: And how does this help protect the Marines on the ground? When they are being ambushed by insurgents, this type of aircraft with this type of cannon able to come in, obviously, low and fast, it's a good technique to help prevent deaths of U.S. troops, yes?
KYRAZIS: Well, Kyra, one of the advantages is, it's low and it's actually slow, which helps it, because it can stay over a target and it can pinpoint a target because of its slow speed.
So, they can actually ask it to take out almost the house right next to where they might be hiding and it will level that house and very little what we call collateral damage. So based on how accurate the information they're getting in the cockpit right now, they're able to pinpoint-target, kind of do their slow speed, but also the incredible weaponry and the aiming system that the pilot uses to fire with this weapon.
PHILLIPS: And real quickly, Karl Penhaul was mentioning the vision and the listening equipment there. What are the advantage with this aircraft with regard to how well they can see, where they can see and also the listening capabilities?
KYRAZIS: Well, again, as far as the targeting, it's got some obviously infrared. So, again, at nighttime right now, they're able to see things almost as if it's day depending on which mode they're using.
Again, you can see with some of the fire and the smoke, that hampers it to some degree, but again they have other modes they can use to see through that again to help with their precise targeting. Some of the other advantages are some of the listening equipment, which they're able to try to pick up on enemy stuff going on. And, again, I'm not sure what they're hearing or what they're referring to.
But, again, mostly as an offensive platform, it's great for this situation.
PHILLIPS: Lieutenant Colonel T.G. Kyrazis there with the Florida Air National Guard, we appreciate your time, strike fighter pilot there, knows that aircraft very well. We appreciate your time. Thank you -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: The fighting erupts there as an extension to a cease- fire that had been imposed -- had expired. Of course, the Marine had been asking insurgents to deliver their weapons. The weapons which ultimately delivered to the Marines were not weapons that they were concerned about. They were rusty old rifles.
And so this standoff, this siege has continued.
And Scott Peterson with "The Christian Science Monitor" has been close to the scene as it has all unfolded.
Scott, just give us a sense of -- and I know you're not inside the military decision-making apparatus right this moment, but give us a sense of the decision-making that's had to go on here, this tightrope that the military's had to walk as it tried to root out the insurgents and yet not incite further attacks from the civilians that are in Fallujah.
SCOTT PETERSON, "CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Well, I think the U.S. Marine commanders right now are reexamining some of their assumptions.
We heard several days ago, five or six days ago, basically threats on the part of the commanders, saying -- giving the insurgents several days to give up their weapons or else. The implication was that a military solution would be found, that the Marines would roll into the city.
We heard them backpedal a little bit over the weekend. And I think there were several reasons for that. One is that I think that the commanders decided that even though this cease-fire might give the insurgents time to regroup, basically hone their defenses, get their act together, if you will, they were also -- the Marines were also able to take some very attacks and blows against the insurgents.
In one case, they killed six over the weekend and in another case they killed 11. So I think they felt, if they continued chipping away like that, that was probably the lowest-cost way of achieving their goal, which is basically killing the insurgents. That's what they've been trying to achieve. But now with the assault that we saw yesterday and then whatever kind of reaction we will see after the fighting tonight, I think that those will go a long way toward determining what the future will hold in the coming days here.
O'BRIEN: Scott, was one of the options, did the Marines even consider this option, just encircling the area where the insurgents are and just waiting them out? Or is that something that was considered not a viable option?
PETERSON: I think it was originally considered a viable option.
And in fact the chief Marine commander here last week said that he could well -- and this is a quote -- could demand that noncombatants leave the city and therefore if all those noncombatants left the city, then that would mean that anyone left inside presumably then would be fair targets if the Marines were to roll in.
I think, since then, and this, of course, is a city of 350,000 people, it means that the guerrillas, even if they're not entirely popular, and it seems that in many respects, they're not, there are a lot of places for them to hide. There are a lot of places. And there's a deep, deep reservoir of weaponry for them to be able to use and it's just a territory that they know all too well and that, for the Marines, it really is tough, blind and urban warfare.
O'BRIEN: Scott, you say a city of 350,000 people. Clearly, some have fled that city. There are refugees we know about. Do you have any idea of the numbers of those who remain?
PETERSON: Well, we've heard varying figures, 50,000 or 60,000 or more that may have left. Certainly not the entire population has fled. And even if an order were to come down or basically the Marines were to say, right, everyone has 24 hours or 48 hours to leave the city, that itself presents a whole host of problems.
Of course, not everybody is going to leave. There's every possibility that the insurgents could force some people to stay, almost as human shields. That kind of strategy, really, when you're looking at the long term -- and I think this is what the Marine commanders recognize and recognized in the last couple of days -- is probably not going to lead them to the end game which they want, which is to have a pacified solution which they can then hand over at end of June to a sovereign Iraqi government. At the moment, we are nowhere near that state and in fact things look like they're going the other way.
O'BRIEN: Scott Peterson with "The Christian Science Monitor" on the ground there in Iraq, thank you very much for the insights. We appreciate it.
PHILLIPS: And the heavy fire continuing a little bit there in Fallujah, live pictures from our pool camera, as Iraqi insurgents and U.S. Marines continue to battle it out there.
Our cont -- our coverage, rather, is going to continue now with Judy Woodruff. She is going to take it from here.
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Aired April 27, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: While pool reporter Karl Penhaul takes a breather there, and he's been doing extraordinary work there, keeping us up to date on what's going on in Fallujah, let's tell you a little bit about what we know about what's going on.
First of all, hovering overhead here is an AC-130 gunship called the Specter. There you see -- that's just a picture we pulled off the Federation of American Scientists web site.
But basically, it flies in a counterclockwise direction, or I should say -- excuse me, clockwise. No, it is counterclockwise. Apologize. And is able to put a tremendous amount of fire power in a very precise way down on the ground and is able to differentiate between, the term in the military is friendlies and the enemy, and thus is used in these types of situations when you have urban combat scenario.
Now, let's bring in somebody who knows a little bit about -- a little something about this, Mario Mancuso, former special operations person.
Mr. Mancuso, good to have you with us.
MARIO MANCUSO, FORMER SPECIAL OPS COMMANDER: Oh, good to be here. Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Just based on what you're seeing and hearing here from Karl Penhaul, the pool reporter on the scene there, try to fill in some blanks for us on what the strategy might be here right now.
MANCUSO: Well, first of all, I'd like to refer to something Karl said about a psy-op team using loudspeakers. The two missions that they were probably on which Karl referenced are incredibly important to keep in mind.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: And just so we don't lose viewers, psy-ops is psychological operations, which is...
MANCUSO: That's correct.
O'BRIEN: It should be obvious what that is. Go ahead.
MANCUSO: Yes. And they are tactical psy-op teams, which means they work alongside maneuver units, infantry units in these kinds of combat environments.
Two missions they're doing right now, probably we don't know this but this is speculation, but I think it's a good guess. A, they are telling civilians probably to stay indoors and to keep themselves safe. B, there might be an intimidation aspect to the insurgents. The fact that there's an AC-130 Spectre gunship -- and I'll repeat something that you said that it's critical for your viewers to understand -- this weapons system is a fire support platform. It can place a tremendous amount of heavy fire accurate on the first round.
O'BRIEN: Of course, that's a key thing.
We're going to go back to Karl Penhaul now and we're going to ask Mr. Mancuso to stand by for us.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we've been seeing for about the last hour from our position on a small Marine base, we're looking south to a position about 800 yards, one kilometer. So we're talking in terms about three-quarters of a mile.
We've been seeing an AC-130 Spectre gunships pounding two positions, two positions, suspected Iraqi insurgent positions. The AC-130 gunship has been circling around in the sky now. On the first rounds, we saw approximately 20 or 25 rounds being launched from the aircraft and then exploding with flashes and sparks and then flames into the ground. The AC-130 Spectre gunship then did another round and hit another position, possibly 150 yards away from the first, again, between 20 and 25 rounds, though sometimes it's a little difficult to count as the action is unfolding, but again, in that region 20, 25 rounds exploding on the ground there, sending showers of sparks into the air and also flames.
Those flames now as you can see appear to have died down somewhat. There is a little bit of an afterglow that we can see there, but for a while there a very heavy glow and thick, thick black plumes of smoke rising into the night sky. Marines on the ground here at our position at a small base, as I say, on the northwest edge of Fallujah are telling us that they're they were possibly .105- millimeter Howitzer cannon rounds that the Spectre gunship was sending in to hit those targets.
We've see also some tracer fire from Marines positions being fired in that direction, but no firm word on exactly what those positions may have been. Again, the role of this Spectre gunship will be to patrol the night sky using sophisticated vision and listening equipment. And then if it detects anything that it believes may be insurgent activity, then to send in a heavy array of the weaponry that it carries.
It carries again, as I say, these .105-millimeter cannons. It also carries machine guns and various other types of rockets and missiles, some of them really quite secret. But because this aircraft is most likely an Air Force aircraft and the forces on the ground here that we are with right now are Marines, then no specific indication of precisely what those positions may have been. But this attack, this attack on suspected insurgent positions comes a day after the Marines that we are currently based with were involved in very heavy gun battles with Iraqi insurgents. That occurred as a Marine platoon from Echo Company pushed out from its small base across a cemetery and took up positions in two abandoned houses about 200 yards away. They've been in that position for about four or five hours before Iraqi insurgents began to mass on the edges and began sending in rockets, mortars, grenades and automatic weapons fire into that -- into those buildings.
In that firefight, we are told one Marine died and nine others were wounded, three of them we understand seriously. As a result of that, the Marines have obviously continued to be very vigilant for Iraqi insurgent activity. This area of northwest Fallujah has been one of the most contentious in the last two weeks or so since in fact a cease-fire was agreed between coalition authorities and the civic and religious leaders of Fallujah.
But Marine commanders say that the insurgents themselves have not listened to those civic and religious leaders and that they've repeatedly violated the cease-fire regularly on a more than daily basis sending in rocket fire, mortar fire and sniper fire into Marine positions. We've also been hearing today from coalition authorities in Baghdad about the prospect of the start of joint patrols between coalition forces and Iraqi -- newly-created Iraqi security forces, though, on the ground here in this northwest edge of Fallujah, Marine commanders have said that will not be possible for the time being because of the heavy insurgent activity in the area.
They've given no timeline for when those joint patrols could begin. They're just saying for the time being they fear if patrols at any kind, coalition or joint patrols are sent out, they feel that those patrols would be badly shot up, would be badly engaged in a very heavy firefight, and so for that reason, aren't going about any routine patrols.
Now, some of the sounds that you possibly won't be able to pick up from the camera microphones that we have running at the moment are some of the sounds coming from the many mosques in Fallujah. Probably from one or two of the mosques we can hear songs and chants, a little unusual at this late hour, songs and chants that were going on a little before the attacks on these two positions south of us, but seemed to have picked up since then.
Unclear what those songs and chants, what the imams and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are chanting and singing, unclear also weather that may be a response, a response to these coalition attacks, unclear whether there is any relation there. Certainly, before these attacks, possibly 20 minutes before those attacks started, what we did hear were the Marine psy-ops teams doing the rounds in some of the streets in the area that they control.
Those psy-ops teams, that stands for psychological operations, would have been doing those rounds possibly for two things. They were certainly sending out messages in Arabic that we heard clearly, but typically they'll operate on two levels, one level to try and spook out the insurgents, to try and play mind games with them.
In one of the broadcasts, in fact, we heard earlier, there was a tape of laughing. And we understand that one of the messages earlier was calling on the insurgents to come out and fight. And then there was a tape recording of laughing. This latest tape recording, though, that we heard being played by the psy-ops teams, unclear what exactly that was. It could have also been a warning to civilian population that coalition activity may be imminent.
And certainly about 20 minutes after those psy-ops calls went out, we did see this AC-130 Spectre gunship targeting those two positions towards where our camera is still pointing. That said, the flames that we initially saw, the black plumes of smoke, have now died down. From our position now, very difficult to see anything of what went on there now. Also impossible from this distance to see what the -- what the result of that pounding may have been.
But certainly from where we were, we heard the first position being hit with possibly 20 or 25 cannon rounds. A second position was also hit with again, possibly 20 or 25 cannon rounds. Marines on the ground telling us that those were likely .105-millimeter Howitzer rounds. Certainly with that quantity one would expect a large -- an extensive damage on the ground.
We did at one stage see some secondary explosions coming up from those positions. That may be an indication that flammable items were stored on the ground in those positions. One might think that possibly ammunition or weapons, but certainly no confirmation in that sense from any Marine commanders that the time.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: If you're just tuning in, once again, live pictures out of Fallujah, pool reporter Karl Penhaul bringing us all the latest information as U.S. Marines go up against Iraqi insurgents there in Fallujah. It's been a very volatile area over the past number of weeks, as you know, and now for the first time we are getting these pictures, live pictures, a number of things that you're hearing, explosions, attacks and raids.
The C-130 gunship, Spectre, is the Air Force aircraft that was coming through in there, providing close air support to the U.S. Marines on the ground as they battle these insurgents.
Jamie McIntyre working the story from the Pentagon.
Jamie, are you able to add anything to what Karl has been saying with regard to the close air support and to what's happening exactly on the ground?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the tactical situation on the ground is something that the Pentagon is not up to speed on that the moment.
They say these are decisions that are being made by local commanders in Fallujah. But they pointed out here today at the Pentagon that even though there has been a softening of the position over the last couple of days, that is the tough talk of last week when they were talking about a Marine offensive of Fallujah beginning within days was replaced over the last couple of days with talk about joint Iraqi-U.S. patrols and more negotiations with intermediaries in Fallujah.
At the same time today, the Pentagon was underscoring that the U.S. was not backing off from its resolve to take care of the problem in of the insurgents in Fallujah one way or the other, a sort of iron fist in a velvet glove approach. Today, the joint chiefs chairman put it in a word very simply. He said, it's worth a try in continuing negotiations -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jamie, hold those thoughts. We are going to go back to Karl Penhaul there in Fallujah. We'll come back to you.
PENHAUL: ... expected insurgent positions were pounded by an AC- 130 Spectre gunship, those poundings by what we understand were .105- millimeter Howitzer cannons that sent up flames and showers of sparks from the ground.
Fallujah's night sky was filled with plumes of black smoke. Unclear from Marine commanders here what those positions may have been, but we're hearing from the Al-Jazeera Arabic broadcast that on the ground there those positions were in the al-Jolan district. That's a district that the Marines here refer to the Jolan Heights. That's in the northwest corner of the city of Fallujah, a population of about 300,000 people. Many of those civilians now obviously have left the city, but as I say, Al-Jazeera describing this as a hit on the al-Jolan district of the city.
And this was notorious for resistance activity, for the presence, for the heavy presence of Iraqi insurgents. Certainly, that is the belief of Marine commanders, that this area of northwest Fallujah is the most heavily populated by insurgent fighters. That is why it would have been targeted by the AC-130 gunships.
Now, as we were reporting earlier, there has been the sound of songs and chants coming from several of the many mosques here in Fallujah. Some of those chants and songs were going on before this pounding started, but certainly those sounds have picked up since the coalition attack on those two positions.
Al-Jazeera, at this stage, reporting that those chants are from the imams of those mosques making public broadcasts and reading verses from the holy Koran reading verses across their public broadcast systems so that the civilian population who are still left in the city can hear and also possibly so that insurgent fighters can also hear.
Unclear, though. Now the flames have died down. The smoke also appears to have died down from those two positions. And from our position, which is approximately 800 yards or one kilometer from the site of those two attacks, impossible to see the extent of any damage there, but certainly from the number of rounds that went in and from the very extensive flames and smoke that went up initially, one may suspect that the damage has been heavy.
The AC-130 Spectre gunship on the first round pounded the first position there with probably 20 or 25 cannon rounds. It circled through the sky again, several times returned and pounded a second position approximately 150 yards away from the first again with anything between 20 and 25 cannon rounds.
That is, we're hearing, in the al-Jolan district of Fallujah. That's what the Marines here call the Jolan Heights of Fallujah. It's one the northwest sectors of Fallujah, everything here pretty close by. As I say, the site of those explosions where the Spectre gunship was pounding about a kilometer, three-quarters of a mile from where we are now. If one then follows the skyline as we're looking at it right from there, about a kilometer or a kilometer and a half is the metal bridge that Marines call the Brooklyn Bridge.
Obviously, that's not the name they call it in Fallujah. That's the name that the Marines have given it, but that the metal bridge where at the end of March, those four U.S. contractors were hung after they were attacked by insurgent forces inside the city of Fallujah. Now, as I say, that bridge approximately 1.5 kilometers, about a mile of the site of those two explosions looking right across your television screens from the sight of those two explosions.
A sound that perhaps you won't be able to hear on the camera microphones, but certainly the imams, the religious leaders in those mosques continuing to cite and recite verses from the Koran. Fallujah, Fallujah to the people who live here, but also to many other Iraqis is also known as the city of mosques, that for the very large number of mosques in this city, normal population about 300,000.
And initially we heard those Koranic verses being recited from one or two mosques, possibly. Now we can hear that those chants are coming from several more of the mosques, what seems to be a reaction to the coalition pounding of these two positions. Marines commanders, though, at this stage haven't been able to specify for us the precise nature of those two targets, but in general terms, suspected Iraqi insurgent positions.
This coalition strike does come the day after a Marine platoon from the base where we are positioned now was involved in a heavy gun battle with Iraqi insurgents. That gun battle occurred about 200 meters, 200 yards from the position where we are now. One Marine platoon from Echo Company pushed out and occupied two buildings on the far side of a cemetery there here is close by.
They occupied those houses in the space of four or five hours, during which time Iraqi insurgents massed around that building and began firing in rockets, mortars, automatic weapons and then also lobbing in grenades. A very heavy gun battle that in total lasted for about three or three and a half hours and in the course of that fight, one Marine died and nine others were wounded, we understand three of those pretty seriously in the words of the company commander.
And so, as a result of that, the AC-130 Spectre gunship has been continually flying over, mostly at nighttime. That's when it operates most effectively. And as it spots positions that they believe could be threatened positions, they have been pounding them. The AC-130, the Spectre gunship, as it's called, is equipped with a formidable array of weaponry, cannons, machine guns, various rockets and missiles. It's also equipped with very sophisticated vision and listening equipment.
The sound from those mosques dying down a little now and certainly no more signs of the Marine psychological operations team that was doing the rounds earlier on, as they were broadcasting messages in Arabic, unclear whether there was a warning to civilian population about imminent coalition activity or whether that may have been messages trying to spook out the insurgents, trying to play mind games with the insurgents.
Camera?
PHILLIPS: Well, it looks like we just lost our signal there. We'll try and redial with the videophone with the live pictures there from Fallujah.
While we try and get that connection, once again, we're going to go to our Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Jamie, while we're trying to get Karl back up and get those live pictures back up, what can you tell us about what's taking place from the ground and from the air there in Fallujah?
MCINTYRE: Well, the United States is very concerned about what's going on in Fallujah.
And it's seen in many ways as a sort of a pivotal point in the war against the insurgency. Presumably, what's going on now is in response to a direct threat in Fallujah, because the United States is still technically in this very tenuous cease-fire, cease-fire in name only because U.S. Marines continue to take fire from insurgents within the city.
But when they see a threat, they are authorized to take action. What we saw in the live pictures earlier was the result of an attack from an AC-130 gunship, a modified C-130 with a .105-millimeter cannon out the side that has the capacity to really level a building if you direct that cannon fire for any length of time at one location.
So, presumably, there was a threat there that the Marines had taken out. As Karl Penhaul, the CNN reporter who is serving as the military pool reporter there, point out, this followed what was a psychological operations patrol by U.S. Marines using loudspeakers in Arabic to communicate with the local population.
Earlier today, the Pentagon talked a little bit about what was going to in Fallujah in the sense that they want to make sure that they have exhausted every possibility for a solution that would be short of an all-out Marine offensive. The U.S. is well aware that the urban combat that will ensue if the Marines begin to move through the city will result in casualties on both sides, including unintended civilian casualties, something the U.S. would like to avoid. But, at this point, they really haven't seen much from the insurgents that would indicate a willingness to come to some sort of arrangement. They have spurned the request to turn in heavy weapons. They have not let up in the fire against U.S. Marines. And this incident now seems to underscore that.
Again, though, earlier at the Pentagon, both Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers explained the thinking behind waiting at least a few more days before starting a major offensive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The people on the ground have indicated to General Myers and to me that they believe what they're doing and the pace at which they're doing it is net in the interest of their goals.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: That it's worth a try.
RUMSFELD: It's worth a try.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PENHAUL: Worth a try, those were the words from the Pentagon. And, again, what we're seeing indicates that at this point there's no indication that there will be a peaceful negotiated settlement to what's going on in Fallujah -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Our Jamie McIntyre there live from the Pentagon, thank you.
As you talk about a peaceful solution, Jamie, definitely the focus of U.S. Marines there, right now, as we're looking at live pictures, heavy fire coming from a U.S. aerial gunship is what you saw. Actually, it lit up the night sky there. It's calmed down a bit, but we haven't stopped talking about the AC-130 gunship that literally began pounding certain targets in the Iraqi city of Fallujah for a while, a number of hours.
Of course, this comes a day after a major clash between the Marines and the insurgents there on the ground.
With us on the phone, Lieutenant Colonel T.G. Kyrazis with the Air Force, knows a lot about the AC-130 Spectre.
Colonel Kyrazis, tell us first of all about the AC-130 and why this type of aircraft would be used in a situation like this for close air support for the Marines.
LT. COL. T.G. KYRAZIS, U.S. AIR FORCE: The C-130 is the aircraft that is based upon. It's normally just a transport aircraft, four- engine turbo prop and not extremely maneuverable, but it's a great platform. And what they've done with this variant is, they've put a bunch of high-powered weaponry. And unlike most aircraft that shoot out of the front, this thing shoots out the side. It has got a huge .105- millimeter Howitzer, a couple of .20-millimeter Gatling type guns, six barrels. And those things fire about up to 100 rounds a second. And also it has got a .40-millimeter cannon.
Since it's not extremely maneuverable, it can only be used in what we call more of a low-intensity conflict or one where we actually have control of the air and also any threats of the ground, for example, surface-to-air threats. It can loiter over a target for a long amount of time and put an incredible amount of firepower. The .105-millimeter cannon can blow apart bunkers, depending on the ammunition they use. And those Gatling guns, with their incredible rate of fire, can just put a lot of the .20-millimeter ammunition down on lots of softer targets.
PHILLIPS: And how does this help protect the Marines on the ground? When they are being ambushed by insurgents, this type of aircraft with this type of cannon able to come in, obviously, low and fast, it's a good technique to help prevent deaths of U.S. troops, yes?
KYRAZIS: Well, Kyra, one of the advantages is, it's low and it's actually slow, which helps it, because it can stay over a target and it can pinpoint a target because of its slow speed.
So, they can actually ask it to take out almost the house right next to where they might be hiding and it will level that house and very little what we call collateral damage. So based on how accurate the information they're getting in the cockpit right now, they're able to pinpoint-target, kind of do their slow speed, but also the incredible weaponry and the aiming system that the pilot uses to fire with this weapon.
PHILLIPS: And real quickly, Karl Penhaul was mentioning the vision and the listening equipment there. What are the advantage with this aircraft with regard to how well they can see, where they can see and also the listening capabilities?
KYRAZIS: Well, again, as far as the targeting, it's got some obviously infrared. So, again, at nighttime right now, they're able to see things almost as if it's day depending on which mode they're using.
Again, you can see with some of the fire and the smoke, that hampers it to some degree, but again they have other modes they can use to see through that again to help with their precise targeting. Some of the other advantages are some of the listening equipment, which they're able to try to pick up on enemy stuff going on. And, again, I'm not sure what they're hearing or what they're referring to.
But, again, mostly as an offensive platform, it's great for this situation.
PHILLIPS: Lieutenant Colonel T.G. Kyrazis there with the Florida Air National Guard, we appreciate your time, strike fighter pilot there, knows that aircraft very well. We appreciate your time. Thank you -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: The fighting erupts there as an extension to a cease- fire that had been imposed -- had expired. Of course, the Marine had been asking insurgents to deliver their weapons. The weapons which ultimately delivered to the Marines were not weapons that they were concerned about. They were rusty old rifles.
And so this standoff, this siege has continued.
And Scott Peterson with "The Christian Science Monitor" has been close to the scene as it has all unfolded.
Scott, just give us a sense of -- and I know you're not inside the military decision-making apparatus right this moment, but give us a sense of the decision-making that's had to go on here, this tightrope that the military's had to walk as it tried to root out the insurgents and yet not incite further attacks from the civilians that are in Fallujah.
SCOTT PETERSON, "CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Well, I think the U.S. Marine commanders right now are reexamining some of their assumptions.
We heard several days ago, five or six days ago, basically threats on the part of the commanders, saying -- giving the insurgents several days to give up their weapons or else. The implication was that a military solution would be found, that the Marines would roll into the city.
We heard them backpedal a little bit over the weekend. And I think there were several reasons for that. One is that I think that the commanders decided that even though this cease-fire might give the insurgents time to regroup, basically hone their defenses, get their act together, if you will, they were also -- the Marines were also able to take some very attacks and blows against the insurgents.
In one case, they killed six over the weekend and in another case they killed 11. So I think they felt, if they continued chipping away like that, that was probably the lowest-cost way of achieving their goal, which is basically killing the insurgents. That's what they've been trying to achieve. But now with the assault that we saw yesterday and then whatever kind of reaction we will see after the fighting tonight, I think that those will go a long way toward determining what the future will hold in the coming days here.
O'BRIEN: Scott, was one of the options, did the Marines even consider this option, just encircling the area where the insurgents are and just waiting them out? Or is that something that was considered not a viable option?
PETERSON: I think it was originally considered a viable option.
And in fact the chief Marine commander here last week said that he could well -- and this is a quote -- could demand that noncombatants leave the city and therefore if all those noncombatants left the city, then that would mean that anyone left inside presumably then would be fair targets if the Marines were to roll in.
I think, since then, and this, of course, is a city of 350,000 people, it means that the guerrillas, even if they're not entirely popular, and it seems that in many respects, they're not, there are a lot of places for them to hide. There are a lot of places. And there's a deep, deep reservoir of weaponry for them to be able to use and it's just a territory that they know all too well and that, for the Marines, it really is tough, blind and urban warfare.
O'BRIEN: Scott, you say a city of 350,000 people. Clearly, some have fled that city. There are refugees we know about. Do you have any idea of the numbers of those who remain?
PETERSON: Well, we've heard varying figures, 50,000 or 60,000 or more that may have left. Certainly not the entire population has fled. And even if an order were to come down or basically the Marines were to say, right, everyone has 24 hours or 48 hours to leave the city, that itself presents a whole host of problems.
Of course, not everybody is going to leave. There's every possibility that the insurgents could force some people to stay, almost as human shields. That kind of strategy, really, when you're looking at the long term -- and I think this is what the Marine commanders recognize and recognized in the last couple of days -- is probably not going to lead them to the end game which they want, which is to have a pacified solution which they can then hand over at end of June to a sovereign Iraqi government. At the moment, we are nowhere near that state and in fact things look like they're going the other way.
O'BRIEN: Scott Peterson with "The Christian Science Monitor" on the ground there in Iraq, thank you very much for the insights. We appreciate it.
PHILLIPS: And the heavy fire continuing a little bit there in Fallujah, live pictures from our pool camera, as Iraqi insurgents and U.S. Marines continue to battle it out there.
Our cont -- our coverage, rather, is going to continue now with Judy Woodruff. She is going to take it from here.
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