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Live From...
Rumsfeld Answers Questions on Abu Ghraib Torture Scenes; Former Defense Secy. Cohen Discusses Repairing Iraqi Prison Scandal Damage
Aired May 04, 2004 - 12:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Outrage at home and around the world, about what went wrong inside this prison in Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld briefs reporters live from the Pentagon this hour.
Wildfires out of control, homes threatened and thousands of people evacuated in Southern California.
Hitting the road and spending millions of dollars, a frantic pace in the race for the White House, and it's only May.
And swim at your own risk. Check this out, a warning for beach- goers that really had some teeth in it.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, hello, everyone I am Kyra Phillips. Miles is off. CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.
Up first this hour, disgrace at Abu Ghraib, new revelations, new repercussions, more of the same revulsion. The U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee is launching its own investigation of the apparent mistreatment of Iraqi detainees in a Baghdad prison, mistreatment a classified Pentagon report described as sadistic, blatant and wanton. One committee member and former POW says it's vital that the truth comes out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: The Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago. It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders in the Pentagon have to keep the Congress informed of an issue of this magnitude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Back in Baghdad, the new man in charge of U.S. military police in Iraq says it's a new day. CNN's Ben Wedeman tells us more about that -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Kyra, the new man is Major General Geoffrey Miller, formerly the commandant of the Guantanamo detention facility. He's been brought in as of March to really clean up house at Abu Ghraib and certainly there's a lot of housecleaning to be done. He said that as of four days ago the use of hoods and sleep deprivation and stress positions has been eliminated out there, that they're going to complete change in how the prison is run. They're going to look, for instance, at the chain of command, and make sure that those at the top out there in the prison know what's going on in those interrogation rooms. So everybody knows what's going on to prevent this sort of uproar from happening, because it is going down, Kyra, very badly among Iraqis. There's a lot of anger. There's more pressure on the U.S. appointed governing council to do something, to make its mark on this issue because it is an issue that really has united many Iraqis who have been hearing for months rumors about mistreatment out at Abu Ghraib, and now they see that those rumors were true -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Ben Wedeman, live from Baghdad.
Forty-seven thousand U.S. troops and Reservists are going to Iraq sometime in 2004. Ten thousand soldiers and Marines, and 37,000 National Guard and Reserve troops will take the place of comrades who will have been in Iraq for a year if not longer. The context: a conclusion by U.S. commanders that they will need an expanded force for the foreseeable future.
Now, shortly, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will face a barrage of reporters, questions about Iraqi prisoners, Iraqi problems, Iraqi prospects. And one man has some unique insights on all of it. He's former Defense Secretary William Cohen. He joins me this hour now LIVE FROM... Washington.
Mr. Secretary, a pleasure to have you.
WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. DEFENSE SECRETARY: A pleasure to be here, thanks.
PHILLIPS: I guess the first thing I want to ask you is what took so long to hear from Donald Rumsfeld with regard to what happened in that Iraqi prison, or did he take plenty of time?
COHEN: Well, I assume that he's been reviewing the documentation contained in that report before coming forward to explain it to the American people in his weekly press conference -- or I think twice a week now, but in any event, that think the Congress obviously needs and should have had as much notice as possible so not to be the last to know. It's a coequal branch and I think there has to be a much better sharing of information if they're going to hold onto the supporters on Capitol Hill, which I think is critical. I'm sure that Secretary Rumsfeld is going to address that issue during his imminent press briefing.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you, when allegations like this come forward, and we heard about these allegations months ago, where does that stand on the priority list?
COHEN: This has to be at the very highest of priorities. The notion that we would allow such rumors at the time to go unexamined, and to allow this to have taken place, has brought disgrace upon many innocent people, the soldiers who are serving in that region who have served and sacrificed on behalf of all of us, to now have that commitment called into question by virtue of the actions of a few people. We don't know how few they are. There may be more than we know at this.
But it has been degrading, certainly, the activity, and it has been dishonorable. And it has cast a shadow over our efforts and I think the repercussions have yet to be felt. So it's -- something like this has to be dealt with very quickly and thoroughly, respecting the rights of individuals involved.
But nonetheless, this is something that simply is intolerable. It has to be condemned at the highest level by President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, I'm sure, will do the same today, and all concerned. This cannot be allowed to stand as a signal of what the United States represents. This is totally contrary, totally -- the total antithesis of everything we believe in.
PHILLIPS: When you were defense secretary, did you ever hear about allegations like this during previous wartime situations? Did you ever read about it? Did you ever hear about it? Was it ever an issue?
COHEN: It was not an issue during the time that I was at the Pentagon, at least that I heard about or learned about. I talked with General Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the joint chiefs just yesterday and he indicated to me that when he led the military into Haiti back in the early '90s, the mid '90s, the first thing he did was to set up a secure area for prisoners that would be taken, and invited the Red Cross in, to make sure that everyone understood that we were going to be totally, fully compliant with every international law, rule of behavior in the laws of war.
So I think here, clearly, there was a failure of command on the ground. Those individuals responsible for seeing to it the enforcement of the rules that are well established and well known, whether or not to have to have a special course in interrogation techniques, to know when you are clearly engaging in abusive, overwhelmingly degrading behavior. You don't need a special course in ethics to know that right from wrong under those circumstances. So I think a clear violation of the rules and a lack of command, that those responsible should be held accountable.
PHILLIPS: Secretary Cohen, you talk about basically the breakdown of chain of command. That is definitely obvious. I want to ask you, where was the CIA? Where were the civilian interrogators, there are other leaders that are supposed to be in these areas and part of these type of scenarios?
COHEN: Well, that's precisely why this investigation must go forward, and it must go forward not only within the executive branch, but now Congress has a coequal responsibility to examine every facet of where the breakdown began, how it was allowed to continue, why there was not sufficient supervision and why rumors went unchecked until this really manifests itself in the way it has. It's done enormous damage to the United States and it has really put a burden upon the shoulders of our soldiers that shouldn't be there.
PHILLIPS: With regard to that burden you mentioned, let's talk about the burden of what Arabs think of the U.S. now. Do you sense just a major disaster for years to come?
COHEN: I think it's going to be hard to simply push the delete button and think that we're going to somehow erase those images from the mind's eye of the Arab people and the Iraqis in particular. This is something that we're going to have to work very hard to show that it was the sadistic abuse of a small group of people, but nonetheless, something that needs to be condemned and make sure it never happens again; because otherwise, the Iraqi people will look to the United States, saying, well, we liberated you, and freed you from a brutal dictator who engaged in torture, and then to find that we have some individuals who are doing things that certainly amounted to torture and humiliation, shameful behavior.
So we've got a -- certainly an image correction problem very much to deal with now, and it may take a long time to overcome it. Hopefully, the good work of the vast majority of the people who are serving us so honorably in the coming weeks and months and years will help to help mitigate the impact of this.
PHILLIPS: Secretary William Cohen, we appreciate your time today, sir.
COHEN: Pleasure.
PHILLIPS: And Secretary Rumsfeld is due in the Pentagon briefing room about 1:15 p.m. Eastern, about six or seven minutes from now. We'll take you there live when we see him.
Two days after Thomas Hamill fled the Iraqi farmhouse where he was being held hostage, he says he's feeling well and he's eager to be home. The dairy farmer turned truck driver from Macon, Mississippi, is expected to recover completely from a gunshot wound that he suffered when he was captured back on April 9, Good Friday. He's being treated at the U.S. military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS HAMILL, FORMER HOSTAGE: I'm looking forward to returning to America. First and foremost, I would like to thank the American public for their support of all deployed in the Middle East. Please keep your thoughts and prayers with those who are still there. I am feeling well and having few problems with my injury. I'd like everyone to know that (AUDIO GAP) and I am looking forward to reuniting with my wife in the morning, and thank you so very much and God bless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And after they're reunited, Hamill and his wife Kellie are both expected to go home soon.
PHILLIPS: If it's Tuesday, well, it must be Ohio, and -- if you're George W. Bush, that is. The president's bus tour is swinging through the politically pivotal Buckeye State today, as Mr. Bush tries to shore up his supporters and lure potential swing voters. Today's bus tour actually includes two airplane flights to maximize voter face time.
Meanwhile, candidate Kerry hopes to go to the head of the class in New Mexico with a focus on education and his plan to help cut the nation's high school dropout rate. He'll visit an elementary school in Albuquerque and later hold a discussion on education with parents.
But John Kerry is getting low marks from a group of Vietnam vets who formed a special purpose political action committee. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth released a letter to Senator Kerry and signed by some of the vets who take exception to Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony about alleged U.S. atrocities in Vietnam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. CHARLIE PLUMPLEY, U.S. NAVY (RET.): Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear, requires constant supervision. Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, as chief of Naval operations said, quote: "With Kerry's large ambitions, his career in Vietnam will haunt him if he ever were on the national stage."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, in the end it all comes down to marketing. The presidential candidate is essentially a product and the election is the bottom line. NPR political editor, self-professed political junky, Ken Rudin, joins us from our Washington bureau to chat about the selling of the candidates.
Good to see you, ken.
KEN RUDIN, NPR POLITICAL EDITOR: Thanks for having me.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about Ohio and why this is such an important state.
RUDIN: Well, everybody will tell you that no Republican has ever been elected president without winning Ohio -- no Republican has ever been elected president without winning Ohio, plus, the fact that the Midwest seems to be the key region which will determine the next president of the United States.
George Bush seems to have a good, comfortable lead in the South. John Kerry seems to be doing very well on both coasts. It's the industrial Midwest, which has lost many jobs since Bush took office, looks to be the pivotal area of 2004.
PHILLIPS: And we're looking at live pictures now, as he is addressing those in Ohio. Are we going to dip in or are we just going to continue our conversation? All right, we're going to continue our conversation. We will dip in, of course, if he starts talking about Iraq, Ken.
We see him here, we see a lot of support going on in Ohio for the president. But we can't forget all the bad news that's going on right now. He's had to go up against the issue of the 9/11 Commission, what's happening now in the prisons in Iraq. But he still maintains 50-50 in the polls. Are you watching this?
RUDIN: Well, that's what's so amazing about this whole thing. As you say, the president has had a bad couple of weeks, the 9/11 Commission, the news about the torture of prisoners in Iraq. And yet it's still a 50-50 election, which either means that John Kerry has not explained fully who he is, or the Bush campaign -- and the Bush advertising campaign, the reelection campaign, is doing its job, saying, if the choice is between Bush and Kerry, if the choice is between protecting our country, 2004, it's the president who is doing the job. And that's why maybe despite all the bad news it's still a 50-50 election.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about John Kerry, all these, "who am I" ads. What's the point here?
RUDIN: Well, a lot of people feel that it wasn't that John Kerry as much won the Democratic nomination as Howard Dean lost it. A lot of people don't know who John Kerry is, and of those who are asked about John Kerry, they say, well, he's a flip-flopper, he says what people want him to hear.
Now that's the Bush campaign ads talking. So obviously, it's working. Now one usually makes the argument that people don't pay attention to the election until September, at the earliest. But again, if people are say these things about John Kerry this early, perhaps the Kerry campaign feels it needs to go for the big campaign buy, $25 million, to sell the public on who John Kerry really is, and that would be mostly his 19 years in the Senate and his record in Vietnam.
PHILLIPS: So if you look at the Kerry ads and you look at the Bush ads, are you able to say one is working better than another?
RUDIN: Well, again, if all you see is bad news out there, and it's a 50-50 election, one would make the case that the Bush campaign is doing its job certainly better than John Kerry's campaign. And a lot of Democrats even say the same thing, that Kerry should be cleaning the floor with this guy, you know, given what the news has been like.
But, again, there's a lot of time before the election. I think this time in 1992, Ross Perot may have been first and Bill Clinton may have been third. So May of the election year is not that reliable, as far as polls go.
But again, this election has been determined much earlier than ever before. The Democratic nomination was wrapped up much earlier than in the past. And perhaps voters will be paying attention earlier than ever, if that's the case, that's why both candidates need to go on the air earlier than ever.
PHILLIPS: NPR political editor Ken Rudin, thanks, Ken.
RUDIN: Thank you. PHILLIPS: All right. Well, in just a couple of minutes, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will be briefing live from the Pentagon. We've got it live right here on CNN when it happens.
Also ahead, why are Americans dying of asthma at faster rates than in other countries? There we go. We got your health lines also -- or health headlines, that is.
And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water, scary situation for swimmers on a California beach.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 4, 2004 - 12:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Outrage at home and around the world, about what went wrong inside this prison in Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld briefs reporters live from the Pentagon this hour.
Wildfires out of control, homes threatened and thousands of people evacuated in Southern California.
Hitting the road and spending millions of dollars, a frantic pace in the race for the White House, and it's only May.
And swim at your own risk. Check this out, a warning for beach- goers that really had some teeth in it.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, hello, everyone I am Kyra Phillips. Miles is off. CNN's LIVE FROM... starts right now.
Up first this hour, disgrace at Abu Ghraib, new revelations, new repercussions, more of the same revulsion. The U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee is launching its own investigation of the apparent mistreatment of Iraqi detainees in a Baghdad prison, mistreatment a classified Pentagon report described as sadistic, blatant and wanton. One committee member and former POW says it's vital that the truth comes out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: The Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago. It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders in the Pentagon have to keep the Congress informed of an issue of this magnitude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Back in Baghdad, the new man in charge of U.S. military police in Iraq says it's a new day. CNN's Ben Wedeman tells us more about that -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Kyra, the new man is Major General Geoffrey Miller, formerly the commandant of the Guantanamo detention facility. He's been brought in as of March to really clean up house at Abu Ghraib and certainly there's a lot of housecleaning to be done. He said that as of four days ago the use of hoods and sleep deprivation and stress positions has been eliminated out there, that they're going to complete change in how the prison is run. They're going to look, for instance, at the chain of command, and make sure that those at the top out there in the prison know what's going on in those interrogation rooms. So everybody knows what's going on to prevent this sort of uproar from happening, because it is going down, Kyra, very badly among Iraqis. There's a lot of anger. There's more pressure on the U.S. appointed governing council to do something, to make its mark on this issue because it is an issue that really has united many Iraqis who have been hearing for months rumors about mistreatment out at Abu Ghraib, and now they see that those rumors were true -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Ben Wedeman, live from Baghdad.
Forty-seven thousand U.S. troops and Reservists are going to Iraq sometime in 2004. Ten thousand soldiers and Marines, and 37,000 National Guard and Reserve troops will take the place of comrades who will have been in Iraq for a year if not longer. The context: a conclusion by U.S. commanders that they will need an expanded force for the foreseeable future.
Now, shortly, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will face a barrage of reporters, questions about Iraqi prisoners, Iraqi problems, Iraqi prospects. And one man has some unique insights on all of it. He's former Defense Secretary William Cohen. He joins me this hour now LIVE FROM... Washington.
Mr. Secretary, a pleasure to have you.
WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. DEFENSE SECRETARY: A pleasure to be here, thanks.
PHILLIPS: I guess the first thing I want to ask you is what took so long to hear from Donald Rumsfeld with regard to what happened in that Iraqi prison, or did he take plenty of time?
COHEN: Well, I assume that he's been reviewing the documentation contained in that report before coming forward to explain it to the American people in his weekly press conference -- or I think twice a week now, but in any event, that think the Congress obviously needs and should have had as much notice as possible so not to be the last to know. It's a coequal branch and I think there has to be a much better sharing of information if they're going to hold onto the supporters on Capitol Hill, which I think is critical. I'm sure that Secretary Rumsfeld is going to address that issue during his imminent press briefing.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you, when allegations like this come forward, and we heard about these allegations months ago, where does that stand on the priority list?
COHEN: This has to be at the very highest of priorities. The notion that we would allow such rumors at the time to go unexamined, and to allow this to have taken place, has brought disgrace upon many innocent people, the soldiers who are serving in that region who have served and sacrificed on behalf of all of us, to now have that commitment called into question by virtue of the actions of a few people. We don't know how few they are. There may be more than we know at this.
But it has been degrading, certainly, the activity, and it has been dishonorable. And it has cast a shadow over our efforts and I think the repercussions have yet to be felt. So it's -- something like this has to be dealt with very quickly and thoroughly, respecting the rights of individuals involved.
But nonetheless, this is something that simply is intolerable. It has to be condemned at the highest level by President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, I'm sure, will do the same today, and all concerned. This cannot be allowed to stand as a signal of what the United States represents. This is totally contrary, totally -- the total antithesis of everything we believe in.
PHILLIPS: When you were defense secretary, did you ever hear about allegations like this during previous wartime situations? Did you ever read about it? Did you ever hear about it? Was it ever an issue?
COHEN: It was not an issue during the time that I was at the Pentagon, at least that I heard about or learned about. I talked with General Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the joint chiefs just yesterday and he indicated to me that when he led the military into Haiti back in the early '90s, the mid '90s, the first thing he did was to set up a secure area for prisoners that would be taken, and invited the Red Cross in, to make sure that everyone understood that we were going to be totally, fully compliant with every international law, rule of behavior in the laws of war.
So I think here, clearly, there was a failure of command on the ground. Those individuals responsible for seeing to it the enforcement of the rules that are well established and well known, whether or not to have to have a special course in interrogation techniques, to know when you are clearly engaging in abusive, overwhelmingly degrading behavior. You don't need a special course in ethics to know that right from wrong under those circumstances. So I think a clear violation of the rules and a lack of command, that those responsible should be held accountable.
PHILLIPS: Secretary Cohen, you talk about basically the breakdown of chain of command. That is definitely obvious. I want to ask you, where was the CIA? Where were the civilian interrogators, there are other leaders that are supposed to be in these areas and part of these type of scenarios?
COHEN: Well, that's precisely why this investigation must go forward, and it must go forward not only within the executive branch, but now Congress has a coequal responsibility to examine every facet of where the breakdown began, how it was allowed to continue, why there was not sufficient supervision and why rumors went unchecked until this really manifests itself in the way it has. It's done enormous damage to the United States and it has really put a burden upon the shoulders of our soldiers that shouldn't be there.
PHILLIPS: With regard to that burden you mentioned, let's talk about the burden of what Arabs think of the U.S. now. Do you sense just a major disaster for years to come?
COHEN: I think it's going to be hard to simply push the delete button and think that we're going to somehow erase those images from the mind's eye of the Arab people and the Iraqis in particular. This is something that we're going to have to work very hard to show that it was the sadistic abuse of a small group of people, but nonetheless, something that needs to be condemned and make sure it never happens again; because otherwise, the Iraqi people will look to the United States, saying, well, we liberated you, and freed you from a brutal dictator who engaged in torture, and then to find that we have some individuals who are doing things that certainly amounted to torture and humiliation, shameful behavior.
So we've got a -- certainly an image correction problem very much to deal with now, and it may take a long time to overcome it. Hopefully, the good work of the vast majority of the people who are serving us so honorably in the coming weeks and months and years will help to help mitigate the impact of this.
PHILLIPS: Secretary William Cohen, we appreciate your time today, sir.
COHEN: Pleasure.
PHILLIPS: And Secretary Rumsfeld is due in the Pentagon briefing room about 1:15 p.m. Eastern, about six or seven minutes from now. We'll take you there live when we see him.
Two days after Thomas Hamill fled the Iraqi farmhouse where he was being held hostage, he says he's feeling well and he's eager to be home. The dairy farmer turned truck driver from Macon, Mississippi, is expected to recover completely from a gunshot wound that he suffered when he was captured back on April 9, Good Friday. He's being treated at the U.S. military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS HAMILL, FORMER HOSTAGE: I'm looking forward to returning to America. First and foremost, I would like to thank the American public for their support of all deployed in the Middle East. Please keep your thoughts and prayers with those who are still there. I am feeling well and having few problems with my injury. I'd like everyone to know that (AUDIO GAP) and I am looking forward to reuniting with my wife in the morning, and thank you so very much and God bless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And after they're reunited, Hamill and his wife Kellie are both expected to go home soon.
PHILLIPS: If it's Tuesday, well, it must be Ohio, and -- if you're George W. Bush, that is. The president's bus tour is swinging through the politically pivotal Buckeye State today, as Mr. Bush tries to shore up his supporters and lure potential swing voters. Today's bus tour actually includes two airplane flights to maximize voter face time.
Meanwhile, candidate Kerry hopes to go to the head of the class in New Mexico with a focus on education and his plan to help cut the nation's high school dropout rate. He'll visit an elementary school in Albuquerque and later hold a discussion on education with parents.
But John Kerry is getting low marks from a group of Vietnam vets who formed a special purpose political action committee. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth released a letter to Senator Kerry and signed by some of the vets who take exception to Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony about alleged U.S. atrocities in Vietnam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. CHARLIE PLUMPLEY, U.S. NAVY (RET.): Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear, requires constant supervision. Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, as chief of Naval operations said, quote: "With Kerry's large ambitions, his career in Vietnam will haunt him if he ever were on the national stage."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, in the end it all comes down to marketing. The presidential candidate is essentially a product and the election is the bottom line. NPR political editor, self-professed political junky, Ken Rudin, joins us from our Washington bureau to chat about the selling of the candidates.
Good to see you, ken.
KEN RUDIN, NPR POLITICAL EDITOR: Thanks for having me.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about Ohio and why this is such an important state.
RUDIN: Well, everybody will tell you that no Republican has ever been elected president without winning Ohio -- no Republican has ever been elected president without winning Ohio, plus, the fact that the Midwest seems to be the key region which will determine the next president of the United States.
George Bush seems to have a good, comfortable lead in the South. John Kerry seems to be doing very well on both coasts. It's the industrial Midwest, which has lost many jobs since Bush took office, looks to be the pivotal area of 2004.
PHILLIPS: And we're looking at live pictures now, as he is addressing those in Ohio. Are we going to dip in or are we just going to continue our conversation? All right, we're going to continue our conversation. We will dip in, of course, if he starts talking about Iraq, Ken.
We see him here, we see a lot of support going on in Ohio for the president. But we can't forget all the bad news that's going on right now. He's had to go up against the issue of the 9/11 Commission, what's happening now in the prisons in Iraq. But he still maintains 50-50 in the polls. Are you watching this?
RUDIN: Well, that's what's so amazing about this whole thing. As you say, the president has had a bad couple of weeks, the 9/11 Commission, the news about the torture of prisoners in Iraq. And yet it's still a 50-50 election, which either means that John Kerry has not explained fully who he is, or the Bush campaign -- and the Bush advertising campaign, the reelection campaign, is doing its job, saying, if the choice is between Bush and Kerry, if the choice is between protecting our country, 2004, it's the president who is doing the job. And that's why maybe despite all the bad news it's still a 50-50 election.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about John Kerry, all these, "who am I" ads. What's the point here?
RUDIN: Well, a lot of people feel that it wasn't that John Kerry as much won the Democratic nomination as Howard Dean lost it. A lot of people don't know who John Kerry is, and of those who are asked about John Kerry, they say, well, he's a flip-flopper, he says what people want him to hear.
Now that's the Bush campaign ads talking. So obviously, it's working. Now one usually makes the argument that people don't pay attention to the election until September, at the earliest. But again, if people are say these things about John Kerry this early, perhaps the Kerry campaign feels it needs to go for the big campaign buy, $25 million, to sell the public on who John Kerry really is, and that would be mostly his 19 years in the Senate and his record in Vietnam.
PHILLIPS: So if you look at the Kerry ads and you look at the Bush ads, are you able to say one is working better than another?
RUDIN: Well, again, if all you see is bad news out there, and it's a 50-50 election, one would make the case that the Bush campaign is doing its job certainly better than John Kerry's campaign. And a lot of Democrats even say the same thing, that Kerry should be cleaning the floor with this guy, you know, given what the news has been like.
But, again, there's a lot of time before the election. I think this time in 1992, Ross Perot may have been first and Bill Clinton may have been third. So May of the election year is not that reliable, as far as polls go.
But again, this election has been determined much earlier than ever before. The Democratic nomination was wrapped up much earlier than in the past. And perhaps voters will be paying attention earlier than ever, if that's the case, that's why both candidates need to go on the air earlier than ever.
PHILLIPS: NPR political editor Ken Rudin, thanks, Ken.
RUDIN: Thank you. PHILLIPS: All right. Well, in just a couple of minutes, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will be briefing live from the Pentagon. We've got it live right here on CNN when it happens.
Also ahead, why are Americans dying of asthma at faster rates than in other countries? There we go. We got your health lines also -- or health headlines, that is.
And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water, scary situation for swimmers on a California beach.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
