Return to Transcripts main page
Live From...
Latest Israeli/Palestinian Violence Draws White House Attention
Aired May 19, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Palestinian sources say more than a dozen Palestinians were killed in an explosion during a protest outside the refugee camp at Rafah. Witnesses say an Israeli attack helicopter fired a missile into that crowd. Israelis deny it. Palestinians want Israeli troops out of Southern Gaza.
The Palestinians are also calling on another nation to intervene. For the moment, though, President Bush is urging restraint. He huddled earlier today with his cabinet. White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is here with that -- Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Kyra, since that cabinet meeting, we've got new information from White House Spokesman Scott McClellan who says that administration officials have spoken with the Israeli government and that the Israeli government has expressed great regret. They say this was a tragic event, but the White House still wants more details, more information about how this all came about.
What is absolutely clear, however, is that the situation on the ground in Israel is deteriorating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I continue to urge restraint. It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Kyra, this comes at a critical time for the White House. They are trying to really garner support from Arab allies in the Iraq mission. At the same time, Arab allies are looking at the United States saying where is the progress when it comes to Israeli and Palestinian peace? This is something the Bush administration is working hard on. But as you know, today's events really undermine that effort -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: The Bush administration also working hard at gas price politics.
MALVEAUX: Absolutely. The president is under a great deal of pressure to show first and foremost that he understands what people are going through when they see those gas prices go up, the impact on their own families and households. And of course also this perception that they're trying to dismiss is one that his father suffered from in his own reelection bid, that he was out of touch with the economic concerns of the common people.
But President Bush argued earlier today that tapping into the reserves into those emergency reserves would not be the way to go, that that is only in the case of emergencies. They tried it with the Clinton administration. It did not work then. The impact was negligible. They believe that the same would be likely this time around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We will not play politics with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That petroleum reserve is in place in case of major disruptions of energy supplies to the United States. The idea of emptying the Strategic Petroleum reserves plays -- would put America in a dangerous position in the war on terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The administration is under a great deal of pressure to at least come up and convince American people that they do have a strategy they're working with here.
Yes, they have a long-term strategy, They say that they're trying to encourage Congress to pass that comprehensive energy policy, but they are also arguing that they have a short-term strategy, that they are pushing those who produce oil, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and other to cooperate to make sure this situation doesn't get any worse -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux live from the White House, thank you.
A close encounter over a political kind today. Democrat John Kerry hosts a closed door meeting at his D.C. campaign headquarters with independent candidate Ralph Nader. Some people have accused Nader of being the spoiler in the 2000 Bush/Gore contest. Pundits wonder if it could happen again. This will be the first time the two have sat down since Nader announced plans to enter the race.
One of the issues in the campaign is the rising price of gasoline. Car dealers see some of their business in a slump. Chris Huntington joins us from an SUV dealership in Manhattan. How is business there, Chris?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, business here is booming. You see a Hummer H-2 behind me. This is the highest sales of Hummers here in the northeast. The manager here says that he's just moving these things off the lot like hotcakes.
But across the country there is anecdotal evidence that SUV sales have been slumping in the last month and a half. And certainly now what we're seeing is that many of the major manufacturers offering great rebates on these once golden sellers, responsible for 60 percent of the profits in the auto business. Let's run through some of the rebates that are currently being offered. GM offering $5,000 cash back on the Chevy Blazer, the Suburban and Trail Blazer, also the GMC Yukon and Envoy XL as well as some other Envoy model. I've never been in an Envoy myself.
Daimler Chrysler about 4,500 back on Durango. Ford is just offering rebates on his F-150 line of pickups. That's the top selling line of pickups in the country and Ford's top money maker. About 1,500 to 2,000 back on the pickups.
The folks we've spoken to at the auto companies say the rebates and slumping sales on some of the SUV models have nothing to do with higher gas prices. That's the word from the automakers. You can be the judge of however you want to look at it.
It is early. Overall SUV sales in April were down about 15 percent. Some models were down dramatically. The Hummer H-2 behind me here was down considerably more than that.
Overall SUVs account for close to 40 percent of the passenger vehicles on the road. And they chew up a lion's share of the 10 million gallons of gas that we go through in this country. If these sales trends continue, it will be hard to deny the link between rising gas prices and slumping sales -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, Chris. Thanks so much.
We'll take you across the pond next. Think the British are too reserved? Things got a bit out of hand in the House of Commons this morning. Tony Blair in the line of fire.
Then we'll read your e-mails. We asked about the graphic images coming out of Iraq lately. How much do you want to see? We're going to read your comments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: News around the world now. In Britain's House of Commons, a fathers' rights group claimed responsibility for tossing a package of purple powder at British Prime Minister Tony Blair. It was later identified as corn flour. Two men are in custody. A member of the House of Lords admitted they were her guests and apologized.
Manhoman Singh says that he will form India's new government and become its next prime minister. Singh was unanimously elected head of India's winning Congress Party after Sonia Gandhi turned down offers to take over the leadership. The two met with India's president today. Gandhi is a Roman Catholic born in Italy. She withdrew over what she described as personal attacks on her heritage and faith.
Technology versus taste. It's a debate that wouldn't have happened a few years ago. Anyone with access to a computer can view the Nick Berg decapitation footage. But do you want to see it? Do you want your kids to see it at school? What role should the news media take in showing or not showing what's happening in the world especially during wartime. Let's debate it. Robbie Vorhaus in New York, former broadcast journalist who now heads up his own PR firm. Here in Atlanta, Martha Zoller, host of a radio talk show. Both very opinionated individuals. Nice to have you both with us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, first of all, what sort of triggered this discussion, a number of articles coming about, talking about teachers being suspended for allowing their students to look at the decapitation video. Good thing, bad thing, should students see it in school?
ROBERT VORHAUS, VORHAUS COMM.: Horrible thing. Horrible, horrible, horrible. When did weakness in the -- when did the protection of innocence and promoting harmlessness ever become a weakness? These children we need to protect the innocence. It is visual rape.
You know, at what point do we stop informing and do we stop hurting these children or these innocent minds or even adults who don't want to see it? They don't need to see it.
PHILLIPS: Martha, I'll let you in in a minute. Real quickly, though, National PTA coming forward. We tried to get an interview with them. Saying parents and teachers should talk about tough issues. "It absolutely needs to be a priority. It's almost certain that children are feeling confused, angry and vulnerable as a result of news from Iraq. Fortunately for all of us children are in the strongest position to overcome and be strengthened by tragedy."
Martha, tough video to watch, no doubt. Those images will not go away.
MARTHA ZOLLER, RADIO HOST: I think as far as children are concerned, that it depends upon the age of the child before and whether you should have parental permission.
I think with parental consent, then certainly, I mean, children get taught about sexually transmitted diseases, they get taught about all kinds of things that are happening in the world that are not pleasant.
But based on age, there should be parental consent. Since this was not like a live news event like 9/11 where you didn't have as much control, this was something being put out, the Nick Berg video, there could have been permission granted so parents could know what was expected.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, just a second. Bob in Fort Lauderdale says, " feel that it's imperative that the press show everything from Iraq no matter how disgusting, brutal or inhumane. Without the press we would never know the real truth of what our government has gotten us into." On the other side of things, "I think we've seen enough. People have vivid imaginations. A description of images will be enough and serve the purpose of reporting the news."
I mean, at what point, Robbie, is it shock to manipulate, is it shock for a political purpose, is it shock for reality? We are in different times now.
VORHAUS: As a communicator, anyone who knows about communications knows that if you want to manipulate someone, you shock them. That's why we're seeing on "NYPD Blue" when they started using the curses, little images of nudity, that's shocking the system.
It is becoming more and more and more -- we're upping the ante. You know, for parents, it is hard enough to say, you know, that's a movie. That's not really real. That's just -- that's computer animation.
With this, what do you say? How is it ever a good idea to show a decapitation, to show torture? It isn't. It's lowering, it is not raising. It is not the protection of harmlessness. We talk about peace. How does this help the peace process? It doesn't.
ZOLLER: But unfortunately what happens is the line has already been crossed. The pictures got put out there initially by CBS News as far as the Abu Ghraib pictures that were put out there. Then what I told my children, that there are very evil people in the world. And everyone doesn't look at other people the way we look at people in America. And it opens the dialogue.
And I think that while I certainly don't think they should be available to anyone at any time, there is a place for this because it is the real world. There is a difference between made-up violence, gratuitous violence and violence that's really happening in the world that we may have to deal with in our own community some day.
PHILLIPS: And there are comparisons that are trying to be made here. Robbie, I want to get your response to that. Obviously the decapitation videotape is absolutely haunting. The pictures out of Abu Ghraib are disturbing, but then let's not forget the pictures of the civilians burned and dragged through the streets and hanging, innocent civilians hanging. We saw those pictures also.
Where do you draw the line? And I mean, it's a new reality that we live in right now. How far do you go? Can you even compare all three of those?
VORHAUS: Well, it's man's inhumanity to man. It is trying to prove a point that we are in a terrible time. I mean, if you are in a field with a bunch of flowers and you see these images, you will see the dark contrast.
Yes, there are people who hate us. And there are people who love us. There are horrible things that happen to children, to families, to people in the war. all of these things are real. But what do we need to do? We're creating a society that is living post-traumatic stress disorder. And we have a government, we have educators, we have men creating a new reality. Somebody once said that the seed of everything that we have, the originator of everything is a thought.
So why can't we just change the thoughts to more peace? To understanding that point of view? Instead of saying, like my kids do, it's his fault, it's his fault. Somebody has to say, stop!
ZOLLER: With all due respect I don't think you can create a reality. Either something is real or not.
One of the things that bothers me the most is the average person out in the red states thinks that it is OK to put out pictures of American atrocities, atrocities that Americans commit. But there's no balance. It is as if we are always wrong and they are always right. We both know the truth lies somewhere in between.
Unfortunately, a line was crossed when the Abu Ghraib pictures were put out. When that line was crossed, then I think at this point in time it's about balance. And we need to show a balanced picture, that every American soldier is not bad. And every person, that there are Americans being cannibalized and hurt at this point in time, too.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Let me ask you about this point that's been made. It has been brought up. The Holocaust, for example. We all had to see those horrific pieces of film and pictures. And that drove home the realities of the Holocaust so that that could never happen again. Can you compare those images to the decapitation video?
VORHAUS: Well, what about the Civil War? What about what happened to the -- the horrible treatment of the slaves in the South? What about atrocities all over the world? We know that these things happen. This isn't taking away from that. I don't need a ton of bricks to fall on my head, nor do you, to know that it is going to hurt.
There's a way to teach, there's a way to help people understand how this shouldn't happen, how we can make things better without shocking people, without scaring them, without trying to prove the reality.
PHILLIPS: Martha, let me ask you, "Without Sanctuary," a book that came forward, all these pictures of lynchings that came across -- lynchings that took place across America. This book came out, the pictures came out. So much response. A lot of people saying it's about time those pictures have been shown. Others saying why do we have to bring that up? Why do we have to bring history up again?
ZOLLER: But again, that's the access to them. As adults, it is important that they're out there, just like the Holocaust pictures. Everyone may not choose to go to the Holocaust Museum. Some of the things are in cartons almost where you have to make the choice to look over at them, they're so horrible.
But I was thinking about that same thing when Robbie was talking. That those pictures were out there and it was important that we saw what it was like because Americans are -- and people around the world, they want to believe the best about people.
I want to believe the best about people, but I also need to know where the line is. And if there's bad things that are going to happen, then I want to be prepared for them.
PHILLIPS: So are we all sort of wrapped up, in, I guess, for lack of a better word, a pissing contest. Abu Ghraib pictures coming out, so let's bring out the decapitation video. Let's compare the two and she who is worse than the other person?
VORHAUS: One of the things that I loved, I heard somebody say the other day that we're always saying, "God bless America." What would happen if somebody started a whole movement that said "God bless the planet"?
These people there, if you were to interview the mothers of these Palestinians, if you were to interview the mothers of the Israelis, if you were to interview the mothers of Iraqis, if you were to interview the mothers of the American soldiers they would all come together and say, please stop hurting our children. Please stop hurting the planet.
These pictures, these images only enforce that horrible things are happening. But we're not looking over here at the wonderful things that are happening in people who are trying to truly create peace. That's what we need to focus on.
PHILLIPS: Final thoughts, Martha?
ZOLLER: There are wonderful things happening in Iraq. Unfortunately we focused on the things that aren't wonderful. Hopefully as time goes on, history will give the perspective that we need. But until then, you have to live your life and try to do the best you can with the people in your circle.
VORHAUS: That's right. One of the things that's important is we haven't seen here -- we're talking to us, but we should have a mental health person talking about the incredible permanent damage done when shocking images are seen and felt. These are imprinted on the mind and they never leave us. They create chemicals that put us in post- traumatic stress.
It doesn't help people to inform. It helps them to feel. It helps them to feel scared, but doesn't always create a position.
PHILLIPS: Thank you both so much.
A shameless plug. Next week we'll talk with Admiral Chuck Hubick (ph) from the U.S. Navy about the rebuilding going on right now in Fallujah. A positive story coming forward. Thank you, guys.
Straight ahead, traffic brought to a screeching halt on the Golden Gate Bridge. Some four-legged trouble.
It's not easy being green, but two PC-makers are willing to try.
What's not on the label? Stealth fats in your food?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: "Deer me?" San Francisco rush hour came to a stop thanks to a sight-seeing deer. You'll be happy to know the deer obeyed the traffic laws. She even got a patrol car escort for part of her 20-minute transit while amused motorists sat and watched. She finally went through a fast track lane and head into the city.
(MARKET UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: Counting carbs? Counting fat grams? Most of us are pretty good at reading labels these days. But often there's something that manufacturers don't label.
Also, the Piano Man is becoming the author man.
And a young girl in Oklahoma wins her fight to wear her head scarf to school.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 19, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Palestinian sources say more than a dozen Palestinians were killed in an explosion during a protest outside the refugee camp at Rafah. Witnesses say an Israeli attack helicopter fired a missile into that crowd. Israelis deny it. Palestinians want Israeli troops out of Southern Gaza.
The Palestinians are also calling on another nation to intervene. For the moment, though, President Bush is urging restraint. He huddled earlier today with his cabinet. White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is here with that -- Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Kyra, since that cabinet meeting, we've got new information from White House Spokesman Scott McClellan who says that administration officials have spoken with the Israeli government and that the Israeli government has expressed great regret. They say this was a tragic event, but the White House still wants more details, more information about how this all came about.
What is absolutely clear, however, is that the situation on the ground in Israel is deteriorating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I continue to urge restraint. It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Kyra, this comes at a critical time for the White House. They are trying to really garner support from Arab allies in the Iraq mission. At the same time, Arab allies are looking at the United States saying where is the progress when it comes to Israeli and Palestinian peace? This is something the Bush administration is working hard on. But as you know, today's events really undermine that effort -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: The Bush administration also working hard at gas price politics.
MALVEAUX: Absolutely. The president is under a great deal of pressure to show first and foremost that he understands what people are going through when they see those gas prices go up, the impact on their own families and households. And of course also this perception that they're trying to dismiss is one that his father suffered from in his own reelection bid, that he was out of touch with the economic concerns of the common people.
But President Bush argued earlier today that tapping into the reserves into those emergency reserves would not be the way to go, that that is only in the case of emergencies. They tried it with the Clinton administration. It did not work then. The impact was negligible. They believe that the same would be likely this time around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We will not play politics with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That petroleum reserve is in place in case of major disruptions of energy supplies to the United States. The idea of emptying the Strategic Petroleum reserves plays -- would put America in a dangerous position in the war on terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The administration is under a great deal of pressure to at least come up and convince American people that they do have a strategy they're working with here.
Yes, they have a long-term strategy, They say that they're trying to encourage Congress to pass that comprehensive energy policy, but they are also arguing that they have a short-term strategy, that they are pushing those who produce oil, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and other to cooperate to make sure this situation doesn't get any worse -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux live from the White House, thank you.
A close encounter over a political kind today. Democrat John Kerry hosts a closed door meeting at his D.C. campaign headquarters with independent candidate Ralph Nader. Some people have accused Nader of being the spoiler in the 2000 Bush/Gore contest. Pundits wonder if it could happen again. This will be the first time the two have sat down since Nader announced plans to enter the race.
One of the issues in the campaign is the rising price of gasoline. Car dealers see some of their business in a slump. Chris Huntington joins us from an SUV dealership in Manhattan. How is business there, Chris?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, business here is booming. You see a Hummer H-2 behind me. This is the highest sales of Hummers here in the northeast. The manager here says that he's just moving these things off the lot like hotcakes.
But across the country there is anecdotal evidence that SUV sales have been slumping in the last month and a half. And certainly now what we're seeing is that many of the major manufacturers offering great rebates on these once golden sellers, responsible for 60 percent of the profits in the auto business. Let's run through some of the rebates that are currently being offered. GM offering $5,000 cash back on the Chevy Blazer, the Suburban and Trail Blazer, also the GMC Yukon and Envoy XL as well as some other Envoy model. I've never been in an Envoy myself.
Daimler Chrysler about 4,500 back on Durango. Ford is just offering rebates on his F-150 line of pickups. That's the top selling line of pickups in the country and Ford's top money maker. About 1,500 to 2,000 back on the pickups.
The folks we've spoken to at the auto companies say the rebates and slumping sales on some of the SUV models have nothing to do with higher gas prices. That's the word from the automakers. You can be the judge of however you want to look at it.
It is early. Overall SUV sales in April were down about 15 percent. Some models were down dramatically. The Hummer H-2 behind me here was down considerably more than that.
Overall SUVs account for close to 40 percent of the passenger vehicles on the road. And they chew up a lion's share of the 10 million gallons of gas that we go through in this country. If these sales trends continue, it will be hard to deny the link between rising gas prices and slumping sales -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, Chris. Thanks so much.
We'll take you across the pond next. Think the British are too reserved? Things got a bit out of hand in the House of Commons this morning. Tony Blair in the line of fire.
Then we'll read your e-mails. We asked about the graphic images coming out of Iraq lately. How much do you want to see? We're going to read your comments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: News around the world now. In Britain's House of Commons, a fathers' rights group claimed responsibility for tossing a package of purple powder at British Prime Minister Tony Blair. It was later identified as corn flour. Two men are in custody. A member of the House of Lords admitted they were her guests and apologized.
Manhoman Singh says that he will form India's new government and become its next prime minister. Singh was unanimously elected head of India's winning Congress Party after Sonia Gandhi turned down offers to take over the leadership. The two met with India's president today. Gandhi is a Roman Catholic born in Italy. She withdrew over what she described as personal attacks on her heritage and faith.
Technology versus taste. It's a debate that wouldn't have happened a few years ago. Anyone with access to a computer can view the Nick Berg decapitation footage. But do you want to see it? Do you want your kids to see it at school? What role should the news media take in showing or not showing what's happening in the world especially during wartime. Let's debate it. Robbie Vorhaus in New York, former broadcast journalist who now heads up his own PR firm. Here in Atlanta, Martha Zoller, host of a radio talk show. Both very opinionated individuals. Nice to have you both with us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, first of all, what sort of triggered this discussion, a number of articles coming about, talking about teachers being suspended for allowing their students to look at the decapitation video. Good thing, bad thing, should students see it in school?
ROBERT VORHAUS, VORHAUS COMM.: Horrible thing. Horrible, horrible, horrible. When did weakness in the -- when did the protection of innocence and promoting harmlessness ever become a weakness? These children we need to protect the innocence. It is visual rape.
You know, at what point do we stop informing and do we stop hurting these children or these innocent minds or even adults who don't want to see it? They don't need to see it.
PHILLIPS: Martha, I'll let you in in a minute. Real quickly, though, National PTA coming forward. We tried to get an interview with them. Saying parents and teachers should talk about tough issues. "It absolutely needs to be a priority. It's almost certain that children are feeling confused, angry and vulnerable as a result of news from Iraq. Fortunately for all of us children are in the strongest position to overcome and be strengthened by tragedy."
Martha, tough video to watch, no doubt. Those images will not go away.
MARTHA ZOLLER, RADIO HOST: I think as far as children are concerned, that it depends upon the age of the child before and whether you should have parental permission.
I think with parental consent, then certainly, I mean, children get taught about sexually transmitted diseases, they get taught about all kinds of things that are happening in the world that are not pleasant.
But based on age, there should be parental consent. Since this was not like a live news event like 9/11 where you didn't have as much control, this was something being put out, the Nick Berg video, there could have been permission granted so parents could know what was expected.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, just a second. Bob in Fort Lauderdale says, " feel that it's imperative that the press show everything from Iraq no matter how disgusting, brutal or inhumane. Without the press we would never know the real truth of what our government has gotten us into." On the other side of things, "I think we've seen enough. People have vivid imaginations. A description of images will be enough and serve the purpose of reporting the news."
I mean, at what point, Robbie, is it shock to manipulate, is it shock for a political purpose, is it shock for reality? We are in different times now.
VORHAUS: As a communicator, anyone who knows about communications knows that if you want to manipulate someone, you shock them. That's why we're seeing on "NYPD Blue" when they started using the curses, little images of nudity, that's shocking the system.
It is becoming more and more and more -- we're upping the ante. You know, for parents, it is hard enough to say, you know, that's a movie. That's not really real. That's just -- that's computer animation.
With this, what do you say? How is it ever a good idea to show a decapitation, to show torture? It isn't. It's lowering, it is not raising. It is not the protection of harmlessness. We talk about peace. How does this help the peace process? It doesn't.
ZOLLER: But unfortunately what happens is the line has already been crossed. The pictures got put out there initially by CBS News as far as the Abu Ghraib pictures that were put out there. Then what I told my children, that there are very evil people in the world. And everyone doesn't look at other people the way we look at people in America. And it opens the dialogue.
And I think that while I certainly don't think they should be available to anyone at any time, there is a place for this because it is the real world. There is a difference between made-up violence, gratuitous violence and violence that's really happening in the world that we may have to deal with in our own community some day.
PHILLIPS: And there are comparisons that are trying to be made here. Robbie, I want to get your response to that. Obviously the decapitation videotape is absolutely haunting. The pictures out of Abu Ghraib are disturbing, but then let's not forget the pictures of the civilians burned and dragged through the streets and hanging, innocent civilians hanging. We saw those pictures also.
Where do you draw the line? And I mean, it's a new reality that we live in right now. How far do you go? Can you even compare all three of those?
VORHAUS: Well, it's man's inhumanity to man. It is trying to prove a point that we are in a terrible time. I mean, if you are in a field with a bunch of flowers and you see these images, you will see the dark contrast.
Yes, there are people who hate us. And there are people who love us. There are horrible things that happen to children, to families, to people in the war. all of these things are real. But what do we need to do? We're creating a society that is living post-traumatic stress disorder. And we have a government, we have educators, we have men creating a new reality. Somebody once said that the seed of everything that we have, the originator of everything is a thought.
So why can't we just change the thoughts to more peace? To understanding that point of view? Instead of saying, like my kids do, it's his fault, it's his fault. Somebody has to say, stop!
ZOLLER: With all due respect I don't think you can create a reality. Either something is real or not.
One of the things that bothers me the most is the average person out in the red states thinks that it is OK to put out pictures of American atrocities, atrocities that Americans commit. But there's no balance. It is as if we are always wrong and they are always right. We both know the truth lies somewhere in between.
Unfortunately, a line was crossed when the Abu Ghraib pictures were put out. When that line was crossed, then I think at this point in time it's about balance. And we need to show a balanced picture, that every American soldier is not bad. And every person, that there are Americans being cannibalized and hurt at this point in time, too.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Let me ask you about this point that's been made. It has been brought up. The Holocaust, for example. We all had to see those horrific pieces of film and pictures. And that drove home the realities of the Holocaust so that that could never happen again. Can you compare those images to the decapitation video?
VORHAUS: Well, what about the Civil War? What about what happened to the -- the horrible treatment of the slaves in the South? What about atrocities all over the world? We know that these things happen. This isn't taking away from that. I don't need a ton of bricks to fall on my head, nor do you, to know that it is going to hurt.
There's a way to teach, there's a way to help people understand how this shouldn't happen, how we can make things better without shocking people, without scaring them, without trying to prove the reality.
PHILLIPS: Martha, let me ask you, "Without Sanctuary," a book that came forward, all these pictures of lynchings that came across -- lynchings that took place across America. This book came out, the pictures came out. So much response. A lot of people saying it's about time those pictures have been shown. Others saying why do we have to bring that up? Why do we have to bring history up again?
ZOLLER: But again, that's the access to them. As adults, it is important that they're out there, just like the Holocaust pictures. Everyone may not choose to go to the Holocaust Museum. Some of the things are in cartons almost where you have to make the choice to look over at them, they're so horrible.
But I was thinking about that same thing when Robbie was talking. That those pictures were out there and it was important that we saw what it was like because Americans are -- and people around the world, they want to believe the best about people.
I want to believe the best about people, but I also need to know where the line is. And if there's bad things that are going to happen, then I want to be prepared for them.
PHILLIPS: So are we all sort of wrapped up, in, I guess, for lack of a better word, a pissing contest. Abu Ghraib pictures coming out, so let's bring out the decapitation video. Let's compare the two and she who is worse than the other person?
VORHAUS: One of the things that I loved, I heard somebody say the other day that we're always saying, "God bless America." What would happen if somebody started a whole movement that said "God bless the planet"?
These people there, if you were to interview the mothers of these Palestinians, if you were to interview the mothers of the Israelis, if you were to interview the mothers of Iraqis, if you were to interview the mothers of the American soldiers they would all come together and say, please stop hurting our children. Please stop hurting the planet.
These pictures, these images only enforce that horrible things are happening. But we're not looking over here at the wonderful things that are happening in people who are trying to truly create peace. That's what we need to focus on.
PHILLIPS: Final thoughts, Martha?
ZOLLER: There are wonderful things happening in Iraq. Unfortunately we focused on the things that aren't wonderful. Hopefully as time goes on, history will give the perspective that we need. But until then, you have to live your life and try to do the best you can with the people in your circle.
VORHAUS: That's right. One of the things that's important is we haven't seen here -- we're talking to us, but we should have a mental health person talking about the incredible permanent damage done when shocking images are seen and felt. These are imprinted on the mind and they never leave us. They create chemicals that put us in post- traumatic stress.
It doesn't help people to inform. It helps them to feel. It helps them to feel scared, but doesn't always create a position.
PHILLIPS: Thank you both so much.
A shameless plug. Next week we'll talk with Admiral Chuck Hubick (ph) from the U.S. Navy about the rebuilding going on right now in Fallujah. A positive story coming forward. Thank you, guys.
Straight ahead, traffic brought to a screeching halt on the Golden Gate Bridge. Some four-legged trouble.
It's not easy being green, but two PC-makers are willing to try.
What's not on the label? Stealth fats in your food?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: "Deer me?" San Francisco rush hour came to a stop thanks to a sight-seeing deer. You'll be happy to know the deer obeyed the traffic laws. She even got a patrol car escort for part of her 20-minute transit while amused motorists sat and watched. She finally went through a fast track lane and head into the city.
(MARKET UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: Counting carbs? Counting fat grams? Most of us are pretty good at reading labels these days. But often there's something that manufacturers don't label.
Also, the Piano Man is becoming the author man.
And a young girl in Oklahoma wins her fight to wear her head scarf to school.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
