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Americans Drawn to Violent Images?; Prisoner Abuse Photo Overkill?

Aired May 21, 2004 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien. Here's what's all new this half-hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE ROTHSTEIN, VICTIM: Do I have to wear a sign that says my son is fighting for you, why do you want to hurt me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: A target of hate, an American woman whose son fought in Iraq literally stabbed in the back. She says it's all because she's Muslim. Her story is ahead.

But first, the top stories we're following for you.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN ANCHOR: A major development in the Martha Stewart case. Federal officials have charged a government witness is perjury. Prosecutors say they discovered false statements made on the stand by Larry Stewart. He is the ink expert who works at the Secret Service. A CNN analyst described this latest development as a bombshell. It could lead to a retrial for Martha Stewart.

President Bush outlining the Iraq handover process in a prime- time address. That will happen Monday evening. He will speak at the Army War College in Pennsylvania. White House officials say it will be the first in a number of presidential addresses leading to the June 30 handover of sovereignty to Iraq.

A U.S. soldier has been convicted of desertion for leaving his combat unit in Iraq, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia found guilty by a jury of four officers and found enlisted offices at Fort Stewart in Georgia. He failed to return to his unit after a two-week furlough in October. Mejia said he was seeking status as a conscientious objector.

And high winds and driving rain knocked out power to thousands of home in Michigan this morning, up to three inches of rain drenching a region stretching from Detroit suburbs to Western Michigan, some 22,000 home affected here. Officials expect electricity to be restored to all areas later today.

O'BRIEN: In the past few weeks, we've all been surrounded by grim, violent images, scenes of torture from the Abu Ghraib prison, the beheading of Nick Berg. That horribly vivid video of that act has become a frequent destination for people are the Internet. Why are we compelled by such horrifying scenes?

Jeff Greenfield looks for some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): An American captive in Iraq is beheaded by his captors. We are outraged, appalled, disgusted. An Internet tracking reported last week that video of the Berg beheading had replaced porn and celebrity items as the most frequently searched item on the Net.

A princess dies in a car crash. We are witness to the ritual of grieving.

ANNOUNCER: The truth about the death of a princess.

GREENFIELD: Six and a half years later, a major U.S. broadcast network airs photos of the dying princess. More than nine million people watch. Americans degrade prisoners in Iraq and photograph their humiliation. We are outraged, appalled, disgusted. And within days, those pictures with no detail omitted are posted prominently on countless Web sites, where they're among the most popular fare.

(on camera): In all the debate about what should be seen and what should be concealed, there's one factor as unpleasant to mention as it is unavoidable. There is and always has been a huge appetite for the grisly details of violent death. Its appeal has often been compared to pornography. But with sex so readily available these days, the image of death may be more alluring precisely because they remain forbidden.

(voice-over): There is a long ignoble history here. Public executions in the United States and Britain were treated as entertainment spectacles, with hawkers selling portraits of the condemned and details of their crimes to the mobs.

In 1928, when a "New York Daily News" photograph snapped this picture of Ruth Snyder in the electric chair, the paper sold an extra 775,000 copies and ran the photo again on the front page the next day. The memorials to the slain president, as this "LIFE" magazine special, all contains pictures from the famous Zapruder film, and at least one publisher openly wondered where the appeal of these tributes was in part the morbid fascination with a murder captured on film.

There was no need to wonder about "The Faces of Death" videos that surfaced in the mid-1980s. They featured graphic scenes of human and animal killings, suicides, executions, ritual slaughterings, and proved a hot item in video stores across the country. Why this appeal. Maybe it's nothing more than the dark side of human nature, the same impulse that makes us slow down and look at a traffic accident or makes some people watching a prospective suicide shout, jump.

Maybe it's a way of dealing with the most primal and unavoidable fear of all. (on camera): Forty years ago, folks singer Phil Ochs wrote a song about the Kennedy assassination. "Tell me every detail. I've got to know it all," he wrote. "And do you have a picture of the pain?"

Well, we have more and more of those pictures now and more and more outlets of them and apparently more and more of us do want to know it all.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: And just this morning, "The Washington Post" published yet another series of pictures showing Iraqi inmates apparently being humiliated, abused and perhaps tortured by U.S. soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison. The paper says it has hundreds more, as well as some videos. At least a few of those were released as well. But does the public need to see every last one of them?

Here with some different views on that, Cynthia Tucker, who is the editorial page editor for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution," and Tim Graham, who is the director of media analysis at the Media Research Center.

Cynthia, let's begin with you. Should the public be seeing these pictures, each and every one of them, as they trickle out?

CYNTHIA TUCKER, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "THE ATLANTA-JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": Well, Miles, the public doesn't have to see each and every photo. Most of the pictures are available on Web sites and people have the choice of going on those Web sites to see more photos if they want to.

Should "The Washington Post" have published more photos? Absolutely. The press is performing its very vital watchdog role here. It is keeping the pressure on the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the military to investigate these crimes fully and not just punish a few soldiers at the very, very bottom of the ladder. There is every evidence to indicate that this scandal has its roots in decisions made at the very top.

And unless the press keeps the pressure on, the Pentagon, Don Rumsfeld want you to forget that. And so, yes, more photographs should have been published.

O'BRIEN: Tim, how do you feel about that?

TIM GRAHAM, DIRECTOR OF MEDIA ANALYSIS, MEDIA RESEARCH CENTER: Oh, could we see any more photos than we already have?

The fact of the matter is, we haven't had any new photos for several days, maybe a week, and they never stop showing the old ones. And what they don't tell us is, look, the last time CBS took a poll, they found that 57 percent of the American people didn't feel the need to see more photos. They understand the scandal as it has unfolded. And 49 percent told CBS that the story was over-covered. Only 6 percent think it's under-covered.

And the funny thing about that was, CBS didn't put those poll results on the air.

O'BRIEN: Cynthia, let's talk a bit about continually putting pictures which really don't advance the story out there. What good does that do, except perhaps to give people callouses to the whole situation and make them tune out?

TUCKER: Well, Miles, first of all, let me say a little bit in response to this whole notion of polls.

If you put the Bill of Rights up before the public and ask or polled people on its popularity, it would probably fail miserably, especially the First Amendment. People always want to shoot...

GRAHAM: Oh, come on.

TUCKER: People always want to shoot the messenger.

The simple fact of the matter is that the photos that I saw in "The Washington Post" today were not photos that I had seen before. These are different photos from the ones that have been published in the past.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: They're not substantially different.

TUCKER: Perhaps some people are callous to it.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about this. Can we roll the tape for a minute? This is "Washington Post" material which we're using, courtesy of them. This is the video.

And, Tim, I want to pose this to you, because while you might suggest that the pictures are more of the same, the video does a couple of things. First of all, it actually shows U.S. soldiers hitting prisoners. And, secondly, it also shows someone giving orders, which to me are two significant developments on all this. Would you suggest that the media should hold back on all of this, even though this really clearly are a couple developments that advance that story?

GRAHAM: I think it's clear.

Cynthia's assumption is that the American people don't want to know the truth and that our government won't be held accountable by showing a couple of these pictures. The fact of the matter is, they've had these pictures in our face for weeks on every day's newscasts. They've inundated us with this.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: The question is, if the video -- if you accept for a moment that the video or picture is newsworthy, advances the story, shouldn't it be aired?

GRAHAM: Well, I don't believe at this point it really advances the story. We are at a point now where we're on just utter overkill on this story.

And the thing is, look, the fact of the matter is that these are photos and videos. And a lot of times, look at the way "The Washington Post" reports them this morning in the newspaper. They say, this appears to be this. This seems to be happening. We're running our entire war policy now based on photographs. And I don't think that's really the way most journalists would say we should run the government, is just on pictures. How about a couple of words?

O'BRIEN: I think those pictures do speak volumes, though.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Cynthia, go.

TUCKER: Absolutely. We should run or government based on the absolute truth. And until these

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: You don't know the absolute truth from these pictures.

(CROSSTALK)

TUCKER: No, but we're getting closer and closer to the truth, which is at the very top of the military command structure, including Donald Rumsfeld. Decisions were made to allow torture of prisoners, both in Afghanistan and Cuba at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq in an effort to get information.

Now, two things need to be said about that. One is, the U.S. Senate was not even aware of these policies before the pictures were produced. The Bush administration is one of the most secretive in modern American history. It wants to conduct a war without telling the American people what's really going on. You're right. There ought to be facts.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: You're not talking about a media policy. You're talking about a political agenda. And what you're trying to do is say, make Rumsfeld resign, make Bush lose the election, make the Republicans suffer. That's what you're up to.

O'BRIEN: We're getting off on a little bit of a tangent. But I just want to ask you this, Tim, you first. Do you think it would be -- would you counsel the administration, the Pentagon to release everything they have right now, just get it out there?

GRAHAM: I think the more important question is, why doesn't "The Washington Post" do that? They're the ones that are sitting there saying that they're sitting on this treasure trove of ugly pictures. O'BRIEN: Well, I thought you didn't want them to release them.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Well, I'm just saying to you, if they're going to say that the smarts P.R. move for the Pentagon would be to put it all out and not let it drip, drip, drip, hey, that's what "The Washington Post" is doing today. It's dribbling a little. And maybe it will dribble a little more next week, so they can punish this administration and make sure we lose this war in Iraq.

O'BRIEN: Quickly, Cynthia, should they release them all?

TUCKER: If this administration can't stand up to the truth, then that's a problem. This is not about making Donald Rumsfeld resign.

But if a resignation is what comes about as a consequence of the truth, that is the way the American government ought to work.

GRAHAM: And when you do 50 stories demanding Donald Rumsfeld resign and you do polls showing how many of the American people want Donald Rumsfeld to resign, that's conducting a political campaign.

There is more truth going on in this war than just what happened in this one prison. We haven't heard stories on the U.N. oil-for-food scandal. We're not hearing stories about the role of Saddam Hussein. There's videos out now that detail once again the prison abuse under Saddam Hussein. Are we going to see those pictures on the networks? I bet you we're not going to see the pictures on the networks.

They were available to the networks last year. Only Fox ran them. Nobody else seems interested. So that's selective truth.

(CROSSTALK)

TUCKER: The simple fact is when Saddam Hussein's mass graves were being dug up, there were plenty of photos on broadcast news and in newspapers.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: They've done 10 times as many stories on this now than they did on the mass graves then.

O'BRIEN: All right, Cynthia Tucker, Tim Graham, got to leave it there. Very sorry we don't have more time to talk about this -- Drew.

GRIFFIN: And the war in Iraq is having another side effect here in the United States, an increased backlash against Muslims. According to one watchdog group, it is happening. That's next.

Conquering Mount Everest in record time. That's right. There is a new world record climb.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRIFFIN: Hate crimes against Muslim Americans are on the rise, that according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

CNN's Sean Callebs introduces us to one Muslim woman who was literally stabbed in the back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Michelle Rothstein, an American Muslim, a routine shopping trip in suburban Washington took an ugly turn.

ROTHSTEIN: I felt a punch. It took my breath away and somebody yelling terrorist pig. I fell in and on my knees. It just happened so fast.

CALLEBS: That punch was a 3-inch deep stab wound. Rothstein was born Jewish, raised Catholic and converted to Islam in 1988. Local police say they're investigating the attack by a teenage suspect as a hate crime.

ROTHSTEIN: Isn't this supposed to be a safe place where people tolerate what you believe in or how you want to dress or how you want to look?

CALLEBS: Since 9/11, the Justice Department has investigated more than 560 bias crimes against Muslims.

ALEX ACOSTA, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: The fear does not justify violating someone's religious liberties.

CALLEBS: Now the Council on American-Islamic Relations says the problem is getting worse, partly because of the war in Iraq. It says last year it received twice as many reports of hate attacks against Muslims as the year before. The group blames ignorance about Islam and misinformation.

ARSALAN IFTIKHAR, CAIR LEGAL DIRECTOR: I think that that has led to the exacerbation of the anti-Muslim discrimination, the hate crimes that we've seen an increase of. And I think that only through education, I think only through outreach and dialogue are we going to be able to ameliorate this.

CALLEBS: Michelle Rothstein's son, who is not Muslim, is a U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and will likely go back.

ROTHSTEIN: Do I have to wear a sign that says, my son is fighting for example you, why do you want to hurt me?

CALLEBS: And now she's worried against another kind of backlash against her son for the abuse by other U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.

ROTHSTEIN: I feel sometimes I'm in the middle because my son is military, you know? And I think that when there's wrong done to anyone it's not right. It's wrong.

CALLEBS (on camera): For Michelle Rothstein, concern for and loyalty to the country she lives in, despite her lingering scar, a result of what she considers a brutal and unjustified attack against her Muslim faith.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: A great tale of lost and found in Colorado. It all goes back to a newlywed's trip to the lake, and we'll show you how it turns out.

Plus, no easy feat. A young climber sets a new record, sprints up Mount Everett.

And, of, men are from Mars, women are from -- well, you know that thing. Ahead on LIVE FROM, the science behind those gender differences. You have an excuse, boys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, in Nepal, a 26-year-old sherpa named Sherpa has scaled Mount Everest faster than anyone in history. It took Pemba Dorjee Sherpa only eight hours and 10 minutes to get to the summit after leaving base camp. Now, that's more than two hours faster than the old record. He did have some bottled oxygen with him. He is described as in high spirits and good health.

And check out this tale of lost and found. Nearly 40 years ago, her husband lost his wedding ring while waterskiing in Colorado's Prospect Lake. But the late was recently drained. And so a widow asked the treasure seekers there with metal detectors to look for it. Sure enough, he found the ring.

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN; Well, thanks to medical science, it's possible for a man to father a child after he's dead. In most parts of the country, this brings up controversial legal issues surrounding inheritance rights.

Ted Rowlands reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brandi Vernoff was born four years after her father died, four years after he had a fatal prescription drug reaction. The family had sperm removed from the body of then 35-year-old Bruce Vernoff. And in 2001, his widow, Gabby Vernoff (ph), gave birth to Brandi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's very smart and spontaneous, pretty. Thank you. We love her.

ROWLANDS: But in the eyes of California and the federal government, Bruce Vernoff is not Brandi's father, meaning she isn't eligible for inheritance rights or Social Security, which the family is now suing for.

WALLY VERNOFF, FATHER OF BRUCE VERNOFF: Even though the deceased put money into the till and the United States holds it and it was meant for his minor children in the event of a tragedy, they're denying her any rights to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If a child is conceived after death of the father, then Social Security has to look to the state law.

ROWLANDS: Like most states, California has nothing on the books addressing children like Brandi. But that may soon change.

(on camera): Here in California, lawmakers are considering a bill that would recognize these children if they are conceived within a year of the parent's death and if the parent left explicit written permission to have the child.

(voice-over): The Bill's author, Republican Tom Harman, believes every state will eventually have to deal with this issue.

TOM HARMAN (R), CALIFORNIA STATE ASSEMBLYMAN: When you call it the dead dads bill, it sounds a little unusual, but strange things are happening in this new age of science, technology and medicine.

ROWLANDS: Only nine states currently have laws that address this issue. North Dakota specifically denies all inheritance rights to postmortem children. The other eight states require the deceased parent's written permission.

Cases of postmortem birth are still considered rare, but experts in assisted reproductive technology say thousands of Americans, including many U.S. troops heading overseas, are storing their genetic material, just for this reason.

As medical advances give birth to more children like Brandi Vernoff, delivered with them will be more questions about what rights those children have.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Sacramento, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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Aired May 21, 2004 - 14:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien. Here's what's all new this half-hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE ROTHSTEIN, VICTIM: Do I have to wear a sign that says my son is fighting for you, why do you want to hurt me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: A target of hate, an American woman whose son fought in Iraq literally stabbed in the back. She says it's all because she's Muslim. Her story is ahead.

But first, the top stories we're following for you.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN ANCHOR: A major development in the Martha Stewart case. Federal officials have charged a government witness is perjury. Prosecutors say they discovered false statements made on the stand by Larry Stewart. He is the ink expert who works at the Secret Service. A CNN analyst described this latest development as a bombshell. It could lead to a retrial for Martha Stewart.

President Bush outlining the Iraq handover process in a prime- time address. That will happen Monday evening. He will speak at the Army War College in Pennsylvania. White House officials say it will be the first in a number of presidential addresses leading to the June 30 handover of sovereignty to Iraq.

A U.S. soldier has been convicted of desertion for leaving his combat unit in Iraq, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia found guilty by a jury of four officers and found enlisted offices at Fort Stewart in Georgia. He failed to return to his unit after a two-week furlough in October. Mejia said he was seeking status as a conscientious objector.

And high winds and driving rain knocked out power to thousands of home in Michigan this morning, up to three inches of rain drenching a region stretching from Detroit suburbs to Western Michigan, some 22,000 home affected here. Officials expect electricity to be restored to all areas later today.

O'BRIEN: In the past few weeks, we've all been surrounded by grim, violent images, scenes of torture from the Abu Ghraib prison, the beheading of Nick Berg. That horribly vivid video of that act has become a frequent destination for people are the Internet. Why are we compelled by such horrifying scenes?

Jeff Greenfield looks for some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): An American captive in Iraq is beheaded by his captors. We are outraged, appalled, disgusted. An Internet tracking reported last week that video of the Berg beheading had replaced porn and celebrity items as the most frequently searched item on the Net.

A princess dies in a car crash. We are witness to the ritual of grieving.

ANNOUNCER: The truth about the death of a princess.

GREENFIELD: Six and a half years later, a major U.S. broadcast network airs photos of the dying princess. More than nine million people watch. Americans degrade prisoners in Iraq and photograph their humiliation. We are outraged, appalled, disgusted. And within days, those pictures with no detail omitted are posted prominently on countless Web sites, where they're among the most popular fare.

(on camera): In all the debate about what should be seen and what should be concealed, there's one factor as unpleasant to mention as it is unavoidable. There is and always has been a huge appetite for the grisly details of violent death. Its appeal has often been compared to pornography. But with sex so readily available these days, the image of death may be more alluring precisely because they remain forbidden.

(voice-over): There is a long ignoble history here. Public executions in the United States and Britain were treated as entertainment spectacles, with hawkers selling portraits of the condemned and details of their crimes to the mobs.

In 1928, when a "New York Daily News" photograph snapped this picture of Ruth Snyder in the electric chair, the paper sold an extra 775,000 copies and ran the photo again on the front page the next day. The memorials to the slain president, as this "LIFE" magazine special, all contains pictures from the famous Zapruder film, and at least one publisher openly wondered where the appeal of these tributes was in part the morbid fascination with a murder captured on film.

There was no need to wonder about "The Faces of Death" videos that surfaced in the mid-1980s. They featured graphic scenes of human and animal killings, suicides, executions, ritual slaughterings, and proved a hot item in video stores across the country. Why this appeal. Maybe it's nothing more than the dark side of human nature, the same impulse that makes us slow down and look at a traffic accident or makes some people watching a prospective suicide shout, jump.

Maybe it's a way of dealing with the most primal and unavoidable fear of all. (on camera): Forty years ago, folks singer Phil Ochs wrote a song about the Kennedy assassination. "Tell me every detail. I've got to know it all," he wrote. "And do you have a picture of the pain?"

Well, we have more and more of those pictures now and more and more outlets of them and apparently more and more of us do want to know it all.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: And just this morning, "The Washington Post" published yet another series of pictures showing Iraqi inmates apparently being humiliated, abused and perhaps tortured by U.S. soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison. The paper says it has hundreds more, as well as some videos. At least a few of those were released as well. But does the public need to see every last one of them?

Here with some different views on that, Cynthia Tucker, who is the editorial page editor for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution," and Tim Graham, who is the director of media analysis at the Media Research Center.

Cynthia, let's begin with you. Should the public be seeing these pictures, each and every one of them, as they trickle out?

CYNTHIA TUCKER, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "THE ATLANTA-JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": Well, Miles, the public doesn't have to see each and every photo. Most of the pictures are available on Web sites and people have the choice of going on those Web sites to see more photos if they want to.

Should "The Washington Post" have published more photos? Absolutely. The press is performing its very vital watchdog role here. It is keeping the pressure on the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the military to investigate these crimes fully and not just punish a few soldiers at the very, very bottom of the ladder. There is every evidence to indicate that this scandal has its roots in decisions made at the very top.

And unless the press keeps the pressure on, the Pentagon, Don Rumsfeld want you to forget that. And so, yes, more photographs should have been published.

O'BRIEN: Tim, how do you feel about that?

TIM GRAHAM, DIRECTOR OF MEDIA ANALYSIS, MEDIA RESEARCH CENTER: Oh, could we see any more photos than we already have?

The fact of the matter is, we haven't had any new photos for several days, maybe a week, and they never stop showing the old ones. And what they don't tell us is, look, the last time CBS took a poll, they found that 57 percent of the American people didn't feel the need to see more photos. They understand the scandal as it has unfolded. And 49 percent told CBS that the story was over-covered. Only 6 percent think it's under-covered.

And the funny thing about that was, CBS didn't put those poll results on the air.

O'BRIEN: Cynthia, let's talk a bit about continually putting pictures which really don't advance the story out there. What good does that do, except perhaps to give people callouses to the whole situation and make them tune out?

TUCKER: Well, Miles, first of all, let me say a little bit in response to this whole notion of polls.

If you put the Bill of Rights up before the public and ask or polled people on its popularity, it would probably fail miserably, especially the First Amendment. People always want to shoot...

GRAHAM: Oh, come on.

TUCKER: People always want to shoot the messenger.

The simple fact of the matter is that the photos that I saw in "The Washington Post" today were not photos that I had seen before. These are different photos from the ones that have been published in the past.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: They're not substantially different.

TUCKER: Perhaps some people are callous to it.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about this. Can we roll the tape for a minute? This is "Washington Post" material which we're using, courtesy of them. This is the video.

And, Tim, I want to pose this to you, because while you might suggest that the pictures are more of the same, the video does a couple of things. First of all, it actually shows U.S. soldiers hitting prisoners. And, secondly, it also shows someone giving orders, which to me are two significant developments on all this. Would you suggest that the media should hold back on all of this, even though this really clearly are a couple developments that advance that story?

GRAHAM: I think it's clear.

Cynthia's assumption is that the American people don't want to know the truth and that our government won't be held accountable by showing a couple of these pictures. The fact of the matter is, they've had these pictures in our face for weeks on every day's newscasts. They've inundated us with this.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: The question is, if the video -- if you accept for a moment that the video or picture is newsworthy, advances the story, shouldn't it be aired?

GRAHAM: Well, I don't believe at this point it really advances the story. We are at a point now where we're on just utter overkill on this story.

And the thing is, look, the fact of the matter is that these are photos and videos. And a lot of times, look at the way "The Washington Post" reports them this morning in the newspaper. They say, this appears to be this. This seems to be happening. We're running our entire war policy now based on photographs. And I don't think that's really the way most journalists would say we should run the government, is just on pictures. How about a couple of words?

O'BRIEN: I think those pictures do speak volumes, though.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Cynthia, go.

TUCKER: Absolutely. We should run or government based on the absolute truth. And until these

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: You don't know the absolute truth from these pictures.

(CROSSTALK)

TUCKER: No, but we're getting closer and closer to the truth, which is at the very top of the military command structure, including Donald Rumsfeld. Decisions were made to allow torture of prisoners, both in Afghanistan and Cuba at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq in an effort to get information.

Now, two things need to be said about that. One is, the U.S. Senate was not even aware of these policies before the pictures were produced. The Bush administration is one of the most secretive in modern American history. It wants to conduct a war without telling the American people what's really going on. You're right. There ought to be facts.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: You're not talking about a media policy. You're talking about a political agenda. And what you're trying to do is say, make Rumsfeld resign, make Bush lose the election, make the Republicans suffer. That's what you're up to.

O'BRIEN: We're getting off on a little bit of a tangent. But I just want to ask you this, Tim, you first. Do you think it would be -- would you counsel the administration, the Pentagon to release everything they have right now, just get it out there?

GRAHAM: I think the more important question is, why doesn't "The Washington Post" do that? They're the ones that are sitting there saying that they're sitting on this treasure trove of ugly pictures. O'BRIEN: Well, I thought you didn't want them to release them.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Well, I'm just saying to you, if they're going to say that the smarts P.R. move for the Pentagon would be to put it all out and not let it drip, drip, drip, hey, that's what "The Washington Post" is doing today. It's dribbling a little. And maybe it will dribble a little more next week, so they can punish this administration and make sure we lose this war in Iraq.

O'BRIEN: Quickly, Cynthia, should they release them all?

TUCKER: If this administration can't stand up to the truth, then that's a problem. This is not about making Donald Rumsfeld resign.

But if a resignation is what comes about as a consequence of the truth, that is the way the American government ought to work.

GRAHAM: And when you do 50 stories demanding Donald Rumsfeld resign and you do polls showing how many of the American people want Donald Rumsfeld to resign, that's conducting a political campaign.

There is more truth going on in this war than just what happened in this one prison. We haven't heard stories on the U.N. oil-for-food scandal. We're not hearing stories about the role of Saddam Hussein. There's videos out now that detail once again the prison abuse under Saddam Hussein. Are we going to see those pictures on the networks? I bet you we're not going to see the pictures on the networks.

They were available to the networks last year. Only Fox ran them. Nobody else seems interested. So that's selective truth.

(CROSSTALK)

TUCKER: The simple fact is when Saddam Hussein's mass graves were being dug up, there were plenty of photos on broadcast news and in newspapers.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: They've done 10 times as many stories on this now than they did on the mass graves then.

O'BRIEN: All right, Cynthia Tucker, Tim Graham, got to leave it there. Very sorry we don't have more time to talk about this -- Drew.

GRIFFIN: And the war in Iraq is having another side effect here in the United States, an increased backlash against Muslims. According to one watchdog group, it is happening. That's next.

Conquering Mount Everest in record time. That's right. There is a new world record climb.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRIFFIN: Hate crimes against Muslim Americans are on the rise, that according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

CNN's Sean Callebs introduces us to one Muslim woman who was literally stabbed in the back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Michelle Rothstein, an American Muslim, a routine shopping trip in suburban Washington took an ugly turn.

ROTHSTEIN: I felt a punch. It took my breath away and somebody yelling terrorist pig. I fell in and on my knees. It just happened so fast.

CALLEBS: That punch was a 3-inch deep stab wound. Rothstein was born Jewish, raised Catholic and converted to Islam in 1988. Local police say they're investigating the attack by a teenage suspect as a hate crime.

ROTHSTEIN: Isn't this supposed to be a safe place where people tolerate what you believe in or how you want to dress or how you want to look?

CALLEBS: Since 9/11, the Justice Department has investigated more than 560 bias crimes against Muslims.

ALEX ACOSTA, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: The fear does not justify violating someone's religious liberties.

CALLEBS: Now the Council on American-Islamic Relations says the problem is getting worse, partly because of the war in Iraq. It says last year it received twice as many reports of hate attacks against Muslims as the year before. The group blames ignorance about Islam and misinformation.

ARSALAN IFTIKHAR, CAIR LEGAL DIRECTOR: I think that that has led to the exacerbation of the anti-Muslim discrimination, the hate crimes that we've seen an increase of. And I think that only through education, I think only through outreach and dialogue are we going to be able to ameliorate this.

CALLEBS: Michelle Rothstein's son, who is not Muslim, is a U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and will likely go back.

ROTHSTEIN: Do I have to wear a sign that says, my son is fighting for example you, why do you want to hurt me?

CALLEBS: And now she's worried against another kind of backlash against her son for the abuse by other U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.

ROTHSTEIN: I feel sometimes I'm in the middle because my son is military, you know? And I think that when there's wrong done to anyone it's not right. It's wrong.

CALLEBS (on camera): For Michelle Rothstein, concern for and loyalty to the country she lives in, despite her lingering scar, a result of what she considers a brutal and unjustified attack against her Muslim faith.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: A great tale of lost and found in Colorado. It all goes back to a newlywed's trip to the lake, and we'll show you how it turns out.

Plus, no easy feat. A young climber sets a new record, sprints up Mount Everett.

And, of, men are from Mars, women are from -- well, you know that thing. Ahead on LIVE FROM, the science behind those gender differences. You have an excuse, boys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, in Nepal, a 26-year-old sherpa named Sherpa has scaled Mount Everest faster than anyone in history. It took Pemba Dorjee Sherpa only eight hours and 10 minutes to get to the summit after leaving base camp. Now, that's more than two hours faster than the old record. He did have some bottled oxygen with him. He is described as in high spirits and good health.

And check out this tale of lost and found. Nearly 40 years ago, her husband lost his wedding ring while waterskiing in Colorado's Prospect Lake. But the late was recently drained. And so a widow asked the treasure seekers there with metal detectors to look for it. Sure enough, he found the ring.

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN; Well, thanks to medical science, it's possible for a man to father a child after he's dead. In most parts of the country, this brings up controversial legal issues surrounding inheritance rights.

Ted Rowlands reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brandi Vernoff was born four years after her father died, four years after he had a fatal prescription drug reaction. The family had sperm removed from the body of then 35-year-old Bruce Vernoff. And in 2001, his widow, Gabby Vernoff (ph), gave birth to Brandi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's very smart and spontaneous, pretty. Thank you. We love her.

ROWLANDS: But in the eyes of California and the federal government, Bruce Vernoff is not Brandi's father, meaning she isn't eligible for inheritance rights or Social Security, which the family is now suing for.

WALLY VERNOFF, FATHER OF BRUCE VERNOFF: Even though the deceased put money into the till and the United States holds it and it was meant for his minor children in the event of a tragedy, they're denying her any rights to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If a child is conceived after death of the father, then Social Security has to look to the state law.

ROWLANDS: Like most states, California has nothing on the books addressing children like Brandi. But that may soon change.

(on camera): Here in California, lawmakers are considering a bill that would recognize these children if they are conceived within a year of the parent's death and if the parent left explicit written permission to have the child.

(voice-over): The Bill's author, Republican Tom Harman, believes every state will eventually have to deal with this issue.

TOM HARMAN (R), CALIFORNIA STATE ASSEMBLYMAN: When you call it the dead dads bill, it sounds a little unusual, but strange things are happening in this new age of science, technology and medicine.

ROWLANDS: Only nine states currently have laws that address this issue. North Dakota specifically denies all inheritance rights to postmortem children. The other eight states require the deceased parent's written permission.

Cases of postmortem birth are still considered rare, but experts in assisted reproductive technology say thousands of Americans, including many U.S. troops heading overseas, are storing their genetic material, just for this reason.

As medical advances give birth to more children like Brandi Vernoff, delivered with them will be more questions about what rights those children have.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Sacramento, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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