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Ashcroft, Mueller Warn of Summer Terror Attacks on U.S. Soil; Fleet Week Begins in NYC

Aired May 26, 2004 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A safer summer through surveillance, scrutiny and sensitive intelligence, intelligence that brought FBI Director Robert Mueller and Attorney General John Ashcroft to the mikes there today. Al Qaeda, quote, "almost ready to hit the U.S. hard." Ninety percent plans complete, according to the attorney general now. The two men there seeking the help from Americans. Seven people specifically.
Let's bring our Justice Department correspondent, Kelli Arena. All of this information, of course, Kelli, quite disheartening when you look at the names and the faces of these individuals. But I want to point out, I guess what caught my attention immediately, the fact an American is in this mix.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you heard the attorney general say, al Qaeda continues to change its tactics, continues to try to recruit and look for people to bring on board that won't necessarily arouse suspicion, people who have Western or U.S. passports, people who can come across and position themselves as Europeans, perhaps when they're not. So this is part of an ever changing tactic on the part of the enemy, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Now when John Ashcroft came forward saying plans 90 percent complete, yet the terrorist alert level has not been raised yet, why?

ARENA: Well, I think that it's going to confuse a lot of Americans, and I think that what the attorney general sort of said, in his last answer there, was that there is nothing specific, that the actions that they're taking, which putting together that task force to deal specifically with this threat within this time frame, summer through the elections, the interviewing of people to go back to sources, asking for an unprecedented level of cooperation with state and local partners, I think that he seemed to suggest that they thought that that was enough, that they did not have to raise that threat level to orange.

As you know, Kyra, when the national threat level is raised, that kicks into gear many security measures that are quite costly. And lacking specifics, Kyra, no target, no location, no exact time frame, that becomes quite costly.

PHILLIPS: Our Kelli Arena, we're continuing to follow this story on the war on terror. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back, talk some more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now the head of counter-terrorism for the Los Angeles Police Department says it would be foolhardy to ignore that scary chatter we've been telling you about, but having said all that, irresponsible to panic the public. Such is the quandary facing government officials all around the world really. And we get input from some insights on both threat and response from Steven Simon, senior analyst with the Rand Corporation, and joining us from London, CNN terrorism analyst Peter Berg.

And good to have you both with us. Steven, let's begin with you. What do we know about the seven individuals that were talked about just a few moments ago? Are these new faces to you?

STEVEN SIMON, TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, except for the American, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Gadahn, they're all familiar faces. The two, Khalfan and Fazul, who were involved in the 1998 embassy bombings, have been on wanted posters well literally for six years now. Siddiqui and Shukrijumah have been sought since last year at least. Siddiqui may be in Pakistan, nobody really knows where she is, and likewise for Shukrijumah. So yes, by and large, they're familiar faces.

O'BRIEN: All right. Peter Bergen, do we know why these seven in particular are singled out at this juncture?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Shukrijumah perhaps, one of his aliases has been "The Flyer." So that might be part of it. Also there were indications in the press conference that one of the other people have had flight training. So that might be part of it. I think -- my guess is similarly that these are sort of seven of the sort of baddest people who are still out there.

Certainly Fazul who was behind the U.S. embassy bombing attacks and was also probably behind the attacks in Mombassa against an Israeli hotel in an attempt to bring down an Israeli passenger liner is somebody who would be very high on the list of people you want to get behind any way.

Shukrijumah, because of his long -- his knowledge of the United States, the fact that he lived in Florida is somebody you would also want to get a hold of, because he's obviously somebody who understands the country rather well.

But it seems to be a sort of laundry list of people that they would like to get anyway. And obviously you have got this series of events coming up, of which there is a great deal of concern about.

O'BRIEN: Steven, would you say that this is just the familiar laundry list, coupled with some chatter, or is there something in that chatter which specifically leads them to these seven?

SIMON: Well, you know, the chatter...

BERGEN: I didn't really hear...

O'BRIEN: I'm going to go with Steven first, then you, Peter.

SIMON: The chatter tends to go in spikes, it ebbs and flows. And when it flows, it can flow quite heavily. And law enforcement and intelligence officials can find themselves in caught in a tsunami, in just a tidal wave of this kind of information. As it happens, these spikes have correlated with attacks in the past.

And the way in which law enforcement and intelligence officials are talking about this one is a lot like the way those who were involved in the summer of 2001 talk about the intelligence and warning spike that occurred at that time. And that, of course, was followed by the devastating attacks of 9/11.

So given the fact that attacks against the United States, on its own soil, remain al Qaeda's holy grail, this is, for them, the big prize, and the fact, as Peter Bergen just said, there are events coming up in the United States that might serve as symbolic targets, make this level of chatter quite worrying.

O'BRIEN: Peter, can we presume in any way, shape or form that there are any links between these seven or would they all be operating autonomously?

BERGEN: Again, I don't know the answer to that. But one thing about this press briefing, Steven just referred to the summer of 2001. This was a really hair on fire press briefing by the attorney general and the head of the FBI of the kind that would obviously have been quite useful to have in the summer of 2001.

After all, the U.S. government did know that one of the hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar, was in the country. And this kind of press briefing that we're seeing today, by making this very public and getting these names out there, may serve a very useful purpose. Unfortunately it wasn't done before 9/11. Clearly, they're taking no chances this time around.

O'BRIEN: So Steven, do you think that the level of response then feels appropriate? Or is this potentially going to unnecessarily panic folks or do you think that it seems like it's right given what you've been hearing about this level of chatter?

SIMON: Well, first, I think I can count on my fellow Americans not to be panicked. I think it's right for law enforcement and for the attorney general to get out there and say that we ought to be vigilant. We can't maintain a level of vigilance or high readiness forever.

It's worth noting that the 9/11 Commission criticized the FBI heavily for failing to share information and for organizing itself in a way appropriate to the threat that was emerging before September 11. And I think some of the points the attorney general were making were intended precisely to show that, A, the intelligence and law enforcement community was organizing itself appropriately, and that intelligence was being shared within the government in a very timely way. O'BRIEN: Peter, you do have a sense that the intelligence communities and the law enforcement communities, at various levels, which often don't work well together, don't share well together, do you think they have finally gotten this message? Is that your sense of it?

BERGEN: You know, there's a new entity called the TTIC, it's this -- is the way it's referred to, the Terrorist Threat Integration Center, which is basically supposed to take all the threat assessments from many, many agencies, but primarily the FBI, CIA, State Department, et cetera and basically produce a one product. So that now we are in different position, this TTIC center really is trying to integrate all of this information into one package so that everybody is sort of reading from the same page.

O'BRIEN: You know, I noted, Steven, along with you, listening to Attorney General Ashcroft, when he talked about looking once again at analysis that's already out there, trying to -- the classic cliche is connect the dots. But really, if you look back at the intelligence they had in their hands prior to 9/11, it was there, it was just hard to root it out. Has the FBI figured out a way to root all this out, to find -- separate the wheat from the chaff here?

SIMON: Well, look, we can't expect miracles. Agencies transform themselves only over very long periods of time. But the one in indispensable ingredient is the real strong attention of cabinet level officials. This is key, it's what was missing according to the 9/11 Commission apparently before September 11. And it's really key to have that. And it looks like we do. And I, for one, take that as a good sign.

O'BRIEN: Peter, a final thought here. Based on everything we know about al Qaeda, I guess it's not news to any of us that the United States would be a target. But is it, do you think, sort of a foregone conclusion that the attempt here will be something perhaps even bigger and bolder than what we saw on 9/11?

BERGEN: That remains the objective. But I think in practice what we will see is the kind of an attack we actually saw in Karachi today, when two bombs went off near an American cultural center that killed a policeman and injured 22 other people. These sorts of attacks are so much easier to do. I think we are going to see lot of those and not many of the large scale attacks against the United States. We've haven't seen one since 9/11. Of course, it remains their primary objective, but it's a rather hard thing to do.

O'BRIEN: Peter Bergen and Steven Simon, thanks for your analysis, appreciate it.

From the war on terror to the war in Iraq, one of the keys to bringing security to Iraq is managing those militias there. If coalition troops cannot disarm them, what are they to do? We'll have some answers for you when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: No stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were ever found in Iraq, but the specter of them is haunting weapons hunters. If terrorists and Iraqi scientist experts in WMDs join forces, well, they could create a new kind of terrorism. Two chemical artillery shells have been found, a Sarin nerve gas shell confirmed authentic by lab tests, and a mustard gas shell. The head of the team hunting for weapons talked exclusively to our David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES DUELFER, CIA: We're very concerned about the terrorist threat here. There is evidence they have a lot of desire to connect themselves with either or both the intellectual capital of the previous regime with respect to weapons of mass destruction and quite conceivably, materials. That is a very strong concern, something which fuels a lot of our investigation at the moment.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Do you have any evidence that people with, say, chemical weapons expertise might be hooking up with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or other terrorists leaders in Iraq?

DUELFER: David, you're going into far too much detail than I would be wise to address.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: You can watch the rest of Ensor's exclusive report on CNN's "NEWSNIGHT" tonight at 10:00.

PHILLIPS: Well, does past performance predict present behavior? Lessons learned from Afghanistan seem to be the training manual for operations in Iraq, we're talking about militias, tens of thousands fighters battling for their ethnic and religious purposes, fighting for the tribal leader that they want to run Iraq.

But with militias come weapons and warfare. So should they be disbanded or dealt with? CNN military intelligence Ken Robinson joins us now from Washington D.C., to talk about the negotiations.

Ken, let's set up first to our viewers culturally why these militias exist and how they are connected to each tribal leader?

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, in Iraq, many of these militia groups came into existence as opposition groups under the regime of Saddam Hussein. And they armed themselves and have aligned themselves with tribal leaders and with ethnicity, religious boundaries. The main three largest groups being the Kurd, the Shiites and the Sunnis.

PHILLIPS: So you just returned from Afghanistan. We'll get to Iraq in a moment. But let's talk about the militias in Afghanistan and how the reintegration process has begun. Is it working and are they able to incorporate the militias into the new government, into the election process or is it not working? ROBINSON: Well, there's a process called disarmament, demobilization and reintegration that has tried to be set aside by the United Nations for sponsorship. What they're trying to do is they're trying to get each of these warlords, these tribal warlords throughout the country, to identify on a list who is in their militia. And then these warlords are paid a price for each person in their militia, and they try to get them to disarm that individual soldier, give him a reintegrated job, some type of vocational training, turn in his weapon, be paid for it with a one-time stipend, and then try to reintegrate him into society.

In some cases they're trying to get them to join the Afghan national army, and in other cases, train them in vocation. But this concept has not really worked on the ground in treatment. Approximately 6000 have reintegrated. But when you're talking about over 100,000 in a militia -- in the different militias, 85 different militias that they're trying to reintegrate, the process is not working functionally right now. They're worried as they get ready to go toward elections that these different groups and these different warlords will flex their muscle and will threaten the central government.

PHILLIPS: So if it's not working in Afghanistan, at least to this point, and you have got warlords going up against the central government, then why now is the U.S. coming forward, saying, we've got to work with the militias? We have got to reintegrate them to make things work in Iraq?

ROBINSON: Well, in both cases, in both Afghanistan and in Iraq, working with these militias is a reality. It makes sense. If our viewing audience would think of themselves and put themselves in the same shoes, if an occupying power came into the United States and then attempted to disarm the different militias that exist within the United States, how cooperative would they be?

Each of these groups fears other ethnic religious groups. And so no one is going to disarm before another group does. And if you accept that as reality, then you have to decide, in terms of long-term strategy, does it make more sense to make war against 85 different militia groups in Afghanistan or the five or six very large groups within Iraq, or try to bring them into some form of negotiations, so they don't see each other or the U.S. occupation as a threat?

And that's the attempt that they're making right now. Now with the Mehdi Army, this group that is supporting Muqtada al-Sadr in places like Kufa and Najaf, the Shiite group -- he is a Shiite cleric who has this group. And he has been almost accelerated in status because we attempted to shut down his newspapers, the United States government did, and now they have fighting him in different cities. And they're now that realizing they're trying to pull back from that, just like they did with Fallujah with a Sunni group, and they allowed a Sunni former Republican Guard forces to move into Fallujah and establish some form of security.

Now, when they did that, the Shiite groups raised their eyebrows and said, oh, they're concerned because they now see former Republican Guards, as Shiites have said, same uniforms, same moustaches, now coming into power, and that scares them. So there has to be a very fine line that's walked on rice paper as they try to get these groups to move toward a June 30 handover.

PHILLIPS: We have got to wrap it, just real quickly. You talked about the integration that is taking place in Fallujah, we've talked a little bit about that, the militias working with the Marines. Is it working?

ROBINSON: So far it's working because they're not shooting at each other, if you call that a definition of, is it working. The question is, is will it last? And that's the big question for the future, as they move toward the handover, because it's going to become more complicated, because the military is not going to have primacy after this handover, the State Department is. And it will be a different group of players with an American ambassador and some form of a government with Iraqi sovereignty. And no one knows what the complexities of that will bring to the current problems.

PHILLIPS: CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson, thanks. We'll keep following it.

O'BRIEN: Fleet Week is under way in New York Harbor. This morning 14 fighting ships steamed up the Hudson River to launch the 16th annual celebration of the American maritime might. CNN's Jason Carroll standing by live in New York to give us an update.

Hello, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And hello to you, Miles. A lot of people in the military looking forward to this week. Behind me, the USS Iwo Jima. It is parked, in fact, all of the ships participating in Fleet Week are parked, they are docked as Fleet Week has now gotten underway.

Dozens of ships, actually, sailed into the New York Harbor early this morning during the parade of ships. One of the best views that we saw was watching them as they sailed past the Statute of Liberty. It's really easy to focus on these ships just taking a look at them. But it's really not just about the ships, Miles, it's also about the men and the women who are serving on board them. And for them, Fleet Week is a huge morale boost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fleet Week started off as New York City's thank you to the Navy. And it's a great deal and great opportunity for my sailors. New York City opens their arms up, free tickets, free food, probably some free beer here and there. They take care of the sailors, and it's just a wonderful event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: That is one happy commander there. This is one way of the city saying, thank you, to those who serve in the military, and that those who are in the public cannot just view these ships but they can actually, Miles, come out and get on board, hopefully meet and greet a few sailors, shake a few hands along the way.

Back to you.

O'BRIEN: Did you say free beer? Is that the deal?

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Jason, all of a sudden he woke up. He's with us now.

CARROLL: It is New York, Miles.

PHILLIPS: Yes, exactly.

O'BRIEN: I'm doing a Homer. Free beer, really? OK.

CARROLL: That's right.

O'BRIEN: All right, Jason, enjoy the assignment.

CARROLL: Oh, I will.

PHILLIPS: Yes, you know where Jason will be after work.

O'BRIEN: He gets the rough ones, doesn't he?

PHILLIPS: He'll be hanging out on the ships there. Thanks, Jason.

(MARKET REPORT)

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Aired May 26, 2004 - 14:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A safer summer through surveillance, scrutiny and sensitive intelligence, intelligence that brought FBI Director Robert Mueller and Attorney General John Ashcroft to the mikes there today. Al Qaeda, quote, "almost ready to hit the U.S. hard." Ninety percent plans complete, according to the attorney general now. The two men there seeking the help from Americans. Seven people specifically.
Let's bring our Justice Department correspondent, Kelli Arena. All of this information, of course, Kelli, quite disheartening when you look at the names and the faces of these individuals. But I want to point out, I guess what caught my attention immediately, the fact an American is in this mix.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you heard the attorney general say, al Qaeda continues to change its tactics, continues to try to recruit and look for people to bring on board that won't necessarily arouse suspicion, people who have Western or U.S. passports, people who can come across and position themselves as Europeans, perhaps when they're not. So this is part of an ever changing tactic on the part of the enemy, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Now when John Ashcroft came forward saying plans 90 percent complete, yet the terrorist alert level has not been raised yet, why?

ARENA: Well, I think that it's going to confuse a lot of Americans, and I think that what the attorney general sort of said, in his last answer there, was that there is nothing specific, that the actions that they're taking, which putting together that task force to deal specifically with this threat within this time frame, summer through the elections, the interviewing of people to go back to sources, asking for an unprecedented level of cooperation with state and local partners, I think that he seemed to suggest that they thought that that was enough, that they did not have to raise that threat level to orange.

As you know, Kyra, when the national threat level is raised, that kicks into gear many security measures that are quite costly. And lacking specifics, Kyra, no target, no location, no exact time frame, that becomes quite costly.

PHILLIPS: Our Kelli Arena, we're continuing to follow this story on the war on terror. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back, talk some more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now the head of counter-terrorism for the Los Angeles Police Department says it would be foolhardy to ignore that scary chatter we've been telling you about, but having said all that, irresponsible to panic the public. Such is the quandary facing government officials all around the world really. And we get input from some insights on both threat and response from Steven Simon, senior analyst with the Rand Corporation, and joining us from London, CNN terrorism analyst Peter Berg.

And good to have you both with us. Steven, let's begin with you. What do we know about the seven individuals that were talked about just a few moments ago? Are these new faces to you?

STEVEN SIMON, TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, except for the American, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Gadahn, they're all familiar faces. The two, Khalfan and Fazul, who were involved in the 1998 embassy bombings, have been on wanted posters well literally for six years now. Siddiqui and Shukrijumah have been sought since last year at least. Siddiqui may be in Pakistan, nobody really knows where she is, and likewise for Shukrijumah. So yes, by and large, they're familiar faces.

O'BRIEN: All right. Peter Bergen, do we know why these seven in particular are singled out at this juncture?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Shukrijumah perhaps, one of his aliases has been "The Flyer." So that might be part of it. Also there were indications in the press conference that one of the other people have had flight training. So that might be part of it. I think -- my guess is similarly that these are sort of seven of the sort of baddest people who are still out there.

Certainly Fazul who was behind the U.S. embassy bombing attacks and was also probably behind the attacks in Mombassa against an Israeli hotel in an attempt to bring down an Israeli passenger liner is somebody who would be very high on the list of people you want to get behind any way.

Shukrijumah, because of his long -- his knowledge of the United States, the fact that he lived in Florida is somebody you would also want to get a hold of, because he's obviously somebody who understands the country rather well.

But it seems to be a sort of laundry list of people that they would like to get anyway. And obviously you have got this series of events coming up, of which there is a great deal of concern about.

O'BRIEN: Steven, would you say that this is just the familiar laundry list, coupled with some chatter, or is there something in that chatter which specifically leads them to these seven?

SIMON: Well, you know, the chatter...

BERGEN: I didn't really hear...

O'BRIEN: I'm going to go with Steven first, then you, Peter.

SIMON: The chatter tends to go in spikes, it ebbs and flows. And when it flows, it can flow quite heavily. And law enforcement and intelligence officials can find themselves in caught in a tsunami, in just a tidal wave of this kind of information. As it happens, these spikes have correlated with attacks in the past.

And the way in which law enforcement and intelligence officials are talking about this one is a lot like the way those who were involved in the summer of 2001 talk about the intelligence and warning spike that occurred at that time. And that, of course, was followed by the devastating attacks of 9/11.

So given the fact that attacks against the United States, on its own soil, remain al Qaeda's holy grail, this is, for them, the big prize, and the fact, as Peter Bergen just said, there are events coming up in the United States that might serve as symbolic targets, make this level of chatter quite worrying.

O'BRIEN: Peter, can we presume in any way, shape or form that there are any links between these seven or would they all be operating autonomously?

BERGEN: Again, I don't know the answer to that. But one thing about this press briefing, Steven just referred to the summer of 2001. This was a really hair on fire press briefing by the attorney general and the head of the FBI of the kind that would obviously have been quite useful to have in the summer of 2001.

After all, the U.S. government did know that one of the hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar, was in the country. And this kind of press briefing that we're seeing today, by making this very public and getting these names out there, may serve a very useful purpose. Unfortunately it wasn't done before 9/11. Clearly, they're taking no chances this time around.

O'BRIEN: So Steven, do you think that the level of response then feels appropriate? Or is this potentially going to unnecessarily panic folks or do you think that it seems like it's right given what you've been hearing about this level of chatter?

SIMON: Well, first, I think I can count on my fellow Americans not to be panicked. I think it's right for law enforcement and for the attorney general to get out there and say that we ought to be vigilant. We can't maintain a level of vigilance or high readiness forever.

It's worth noting that the 9/11 Commission criticized the FBI heavily for failing to share information and for organizing itself in a way appropriate to the threat that was emerging before September 11. And I think some of the points the attorney general were making were intended precisely to show that, A, the intelligence and law enforcement community was organizing itself appropriately, and that intelligence was being shared within the government in a very timely way. O'BRIEN: Peter, you do have a sense that the intelligence communities and the law enforcement communities, at various levels, which often don't work well together, don't share well together, do you think they have finally gotten this message? Is that your sense of it?

BERGEN: You know, there's a new entity called the TTIC, it's this -- is the way it's referred to, the Terrorist Threat Integration Center, which is basically supposed to take all the threat assessments from many, many agencies, but primarily the FBI, CIA, State Department, et cetera and basically produce a one product. So that now we are in different position, this TTIC center really is trying to integrate all of this information into one package so that everybody is sort of reading from the same page.

O'BRIEN: You know, I noted, Steven, along with you, listening to Attorney General Ashcroft, when he talked about looking once again at analysis that's already out there, trying to -- the classic cliche is connect the dots. But really, if you look back at the intelligence they had in their hands prior to 9/11, it was there, it was just hard to root it out. Has the FBI figured out a way to root all this out, to find -- separate the wheat from the chaff here?

SIMON: Well, look, we can't expect miracles. Agencies transform themselves only over very long periods of time. But the one in indispensable ingredient is the real strong attention of cabinet level officials. This is key, it's what was missing according to the 9/11 Commission apparently before September 11. And it's really key to have that. And it looks like we do. And I, for one, take that as a good sign.

O'BRIEN: Peter, a final thought here. Based on everything we know about al Qaeda, I guess it's not news to any of us that the United States would be a target. But is it, do you think, sort of a foregone conclusion that the attempt here will be something perhaps even bigger and bolder than what we saw on 9/11?

BERGEN: That remains the objective. But I think in practice what we will see is the kind of an attack we actually saw in Karachi today, when two bombs went off near an American cultural center that killed a policeman and injured 22 other people. These sorts of attacks are so much easier to do. I think we are going to see lot of those and not many of the large scale attacks against the United States. We've haven't seen one since 9/11. Of course, it remains their primary objective, but it's a rather hard thing to do.

O'BRIEN: Peter Bergen and Steven Simon, thanks for your analysis, appreciate it.

From the war on terror to the war in Iraq, one of the keys to bringing security to Iraq is managing those militias there. If coalition troops cannot disarm them, what are they to do? We'll have some answers for you when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: No stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were ever found in Iraq, but the specter of them is haunting weapons hunters. If terrorists and Iraqi scientist experts in WMDs join forces, well, they could create a new kind of terrorism. Two chemical artillery shells have been found, a Sarin nerve gas shell confirmed authentic by lab tests, and a mustard gas shell. The head of the team hunting for weapons talked exclusively to our David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES DUELFER, CIA: We're very concerned about the terrorist threat here. There is evidence they have a lot of desire to connect themselves with either or both the intellectual capital of the previous regime with respect to weapons of mass destruction and quite conceivably, materials. That is a very strong concern, something which fuels a lot of our investigation at the moment.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Do you have any evidence that people with, say, chemical weapons expertise might be hooking up with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or other terrorists leaders in Iraq?

DUELFER: David, you're going into far too much detail than I would be wise to address.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: You can watch the rest of Ensor's exclusive report on CNN's "NEWSNIGHT" tonight at 10:00.

PHILLIPS: Well, does past performance predict present behavior? Lessons learned from Afghanistan seem to be the training manual for operations in Iraq, we're talking about militias, tens of thousands fighters battling for their ethnic and religious purposes, fighting for the tribal leader that they want to run Iraq.

But with militias come weapons and warfare. So should they be disbanded or dealt with? CNN military intelligence Ken Robinson joins us now from Washington D.C., to talk about the negotiations.

Ken, let's set up first to our viewers culturally why these militias exist and how they are connected to each tribal leader?

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, in Iraq, many of these militia groups came into existence as opposition groups under the regime of Saddam Hussein. And they armed themselves and have aligned themselves with tribal leaders and with ethnicity, religious boundaries. The main three largest groups being the Kurd, the Shiites and the Sunnis.

PHILLIPS: So you just returned from Afghanistan. We'll get to Iraq in a moment. But let's talk about the militias in Afghanistan and how the reintegration process has begun. Is it working and are they able to incorporate the militias into the new government, into the election process or is it not working? ROBINSON: Well, there's a process called disarmament, demobilization and reintegration that has tried to be set aside by the United Nations for sponsorship. What they're trying to do is they're trying to get each of these warlords, these tribal warlords throughout the country, to identify on a list who is in their militia. And then these warlords are paid a price for each person in their militia, and they try to get them to disarm that individual soldier, give him a reintegrated job, some type of vocational training, turn in his weapon, be paid for it with a one-time stipend, and then try to reintegrate him into society.

In some cases they're trying to get them to join the Afghan national army, and in other cases, train them in vocation. But this concept has not really worked on the ground in treatment. Approximately 6000 have reintegrated. But when you're talking about over 100,000 in a militia -- in the different militias, 85 different militias that they're trying to reintegrate, the process is not working functionally right now. They're worried as they get ready to go toward elections that these different groups and these different warlords will flex their muscle and will threaten the central government.

PHILLIPS: So if it's not working in Afghanistan, at least to this point, and you have got warlords going up against the central government, then why now is the U.S. coming forward, saying, we've got to work with the militias? We have got to reintegrate them to make things work in Iraq?

ROBINSON: Well, in both cases, in both Afghanistan and in Iraq, working with these militias is a reality. It makes sense. If our viewing audience would think of themselves and put themselves in the same shoes, if an occupying power came into the United States and then attempted to disarm the different militias that exist within the United States, how cooperative would they be?

Each of these groups fears other ethnic religious groups. And so no one is going to disarm before another group does. And if you accept that as reality, then you have to decide, in terms of long-term strategy, does it make more sense to make war against 85 different militia groups in Afghanistan or the five or six very large groups within Iraq, or try to bring them into some form of negotiations, so they don't see each other or the U.S. occupation as a threat?

And that's the attempt that they're making right now. Now with the Mehdi Army, this group that is supporting Muqtada al-Sadr in places like Kufa and Najaf, the Shiite group -- he is a Shiite cleric who has this group. And he has been almost accelerated in status because we attempted to shut down his newspapers, the United States government did, and now they have fighting him in different cities. And they're now that realizing they're trying to pull back from that, just like they did with Fallujah with a Sunni group, and they allowed a Sunni former Republican Guard forces to move into Fallujah and establish some form of security.

Now, when they did that, the Shiite groups raised their eyebrows and said, oh, they're concerned because they now see former Republican Guards, as Shiites have said, same uniforms, same moustaches, now coming into power, and that scares them. So there has to be a very fine line that's walked on rice paper as they try to get these groups to move toward a June 30 handover.

PHILLIPS: We have got to wrap it, just real quickly. You talked about the integration that is taking place in Fallujah, we've talked a little bit about that, the militias working with the Marines. Is it working?

ROBINSON: So far it's working because they're not shooting at each other, if you call that a definition of, is it working. The question is, is will it last? And that's the big question for the future, as they move toward the handover, because it's going to become more complicated, because the military is not going to have primacy after this handover, the State Department is. And it will be a different group of players with an American ambassador and some form of a government with Iraqi sovereignty. And no one knows what the complexities of that will bring to the current problems.

PHILLIPS: CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson, thanks. We'll keep following it.

O'BRIEN: Fleet Week is under way in New York Harbor. This morning 14 fighting ships steamed up the Hudson River to launch the 16th annual celebration of the American maritime might. CNN's Jason Carroll standing by live in New York to give us an update.

Hello, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And hello to you, Miles. A lot of people in the military looking forward to this week. Behind me, the USS Iwo Jima. It is parked, in fact, all of the ships participating in Fleet Week are parked, they are docked as Fleet Week has now gotten underway.

Dozens of ships, actually, sailed into the New York Harbor early this morning during the parade of ships. One of the best views that we saw was watching them as they sailed past the Statute of Liberty. It's really easy to focus on these ships just taking a look at them. But it's really not just about the ships, Miles, it's also about the men and the women who are serving on board them. And for them, Fleet Week is a huge morale boost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fleet Week started off as New York City's thank you to the Navy. And it's a great deal and great opportunity for my sailors. New York City opens their arms up, free tickets, free food, probably some free beer here and there. They take care of the sailors, and it's just a wonderful event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: That is one happy commander there. This is one way of the city saying, thank you, to those who serve in the military, and that those who are in the public cannot just view these ships but they can actually, Miles, come out and get on board, hopefully meet and greet a few sailors, shake a few hands along the way.

Back to you.

O'BRIEN: Did you say free beer? Is that the deal?

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Jason, all of a sudden he woke up. He's with us now.

CARROLL: It is New York, Miles.

PHILLIPS: Yes, exactly.

O'BRIEN: I'm doing a Homer. Free beer, really? OK.

CARROLL: That's right.

O'BRIEN: All right, Jason, enjoy the assignment.

CARROLL: Oh, I will.

PHILLIPS: Yes, you know where Jason will be after work.

O'BRIEN: He gets the rough ones, doesn't he?

PHILLIPS: He'll be hanging out on the ships there. Thanks, Jason.

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