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Saddam Calls First Court Hearing 'Theater by Bush'
Aired July 01, 2004 - 12:51 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I want to go back to Baghdad for a moment.
John Burns, he's the famed New York Times journalist, the Pulitzer Prize winner. He was in the courtroom, the print pool reporter. He's briefing other journalists right now on what he saw. I want our viewers to listen.
JOHN BURNS, POOL REPORTER: Where we were, a lot of nervous gestures, hand to the side of the face, hand to the moustache, rubbing his brow. I took down a list of -- of the -- of the moods that I thought I saw him pass through in the course of all of this, if I can find it.
He talked -- he seemed to me to go from -- just a minute -- from initial nervousness, anxiety, disorientation, to irritation, anger, and eventually defiance. And I guess you've seen the -- the tapes of that.
It seemed like it took him some time to find his pitch, to find -- and this was something we saw as the afternoon wore on. They've been in solitary confinement. They knew -- it was evident very little about what they were going to confront when he got into the courtroom.
They did not know the charges they were going to face. And it took him certainly some time to get oriented. And then eventually it seemed to me he kind of found himself again.
We'd heard right from the very first words, as you know, "I'm the president of Iraq." But it took him about -- he was 26 minutes in the courtroom, I would say. It took him about 20 of those minutes really to find his pitch. And once he found his pitch, he was in full-blown defiance.
I could give you more, if I took the time, on the precise gestures, but if you want me to just go to the text, I'll do that. Just a minute. I also, by the way, have some reaction from the Iraqi officials who were there who were principally Rabii and Salem Chalabi, which we can get to later on.
We have finger frequently raised to the left eyebrow. His voice sounded initially slightly broken. You know, he always had that sort of middle pitch voice which didn't sound like the voice of the brutal dictator to me ever.
Today, it sounded even less like that to begin with. He sounded husky. He had that slight Tikriti lisp -- lisp. And he looked initially and sounded very much like a broken man. Scratching his forehead, hands (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on his cheek, finger against his lips. You know the charges, I suppose, do you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BURNS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me.
BURNS: Yes?
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) incidents, did the judge make -- you know, use a word like "genocide" (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
BURNS: No, no, he didn't. But there was -- there was frequent reference, I think, in almost every case, and there was in Saddam's case, too, 406/1/A. It is the section of the Iraqi criminal code that provides for the death penalty.
406/1/A provides for the death penalty in cases of premeditated killing -- killing with intent. And as we'll get to later on, that seemed to really shake some of them. Not Saddam, because by the time that was raised, he was in his full-blown presidential mode.
I don't -- this will come in no particular order. I don't think it matters. But as he was leaving at the end, when his very last words was, "Halas," finished to the judge, is it over, OK, halas, because he refused to sign the legal documents, the guards come to raise him out of the chair, and he said -- and it's a loose translation -- but "Take it easy. I'm an old man." So he's obviously -- he's feeling as well as looking frail.
QUESTION: John, what was the atmosphere like? What sort of presence did he have? Did it seem at all that he was commanding some of it, or was the judge clearly always in command?
BURNS: Initially, the judge -- as you know, the judge is a story in himself, because, you know, not yet 40 years old, extremely assured performance. And never rose to any of the bait that was -- the barbs that were thrown at him all day. Seemed extremely self-confident, and we can get to him if you'd like.
But he's, of course, a man much under threat. We're not allowed to name him. And he -- I spoke to him during one of the recesses. So we can -- we can get to that.
But he was clearly in charge throughout. But the only a moment in the day when you could say it was an equal match was approximately half way through Saddam's time with him, the 26 minutes, when a real debate got going. And it was punch and counter-punch.
QUESTION: Was that -- was that regarding Kuwait, or was it the debate part?
BURNS: At one point, when -- I don't know if you saw this, but when they got to Article 7 of the charges against him, which was Kuwait, he said -- this is a loose translation -- to the judge, "I can't" -- and he laughed mockingly -- and he said, "I can't believe you, as an Iraqi, would say that that was a crime." I don't want to make you uneasy -- "You feel uneasy," he said to the judge, "but you know this is all theater by Bush, the criminal, to help him with his campaign," was the translation I got.
It could be enterprise. You have to understand, these translations are, unfortunately, loose. I did the best I can.
"I was president when we invaded Kuwait. I was looking out for Iraq's interests against those mad dogs who tried to turn Iraqi women into 10-dinar prostitutes."
QUESTION: Can you repeat that, John?
BURNS: "I was president when we invaded Kuwait. I was looking out for Iraqi interests against those mad dogs who tried to turn Iraqi women into 10-dinar prostitutes."
When -- this is Rabii's translation. I'll get to the translator's translation in a second. But these quotes are slightly better than I got from the translator.
What Rabii told me -- and he had taken his own notes of this -- that when Halabja was mentioned in the charge sheet, he said, "Yes, I've heard about that -- I heard about that in the media as well." Yes, that -- during the regime -- at this point, he's talking about himself in the past tense -- that during the regime -- "During the reign" -- I beg your pardon -- "of President Saddam Hussein, poison gas was used there."
At another point, he said...
QUESTION: Were those his words, John?
BURNS: This is what Rabii gave me. Salem Chalabi said -- gave another quotation. Take it as you will. If anybody's got the whole text, they can check it, that he said, "I heard about that on the radio. Halabja, I heard about that on the radio."
"I am still the president of the republic, and the occupation can't take that away. I did all these things," he said, talking about Kuwait and other things, "as the president of the republic. So you should not strip me of my title and put me on trial. There are some procedures according to Iraqi law."
There was some discussion between him and the judge about an immunity clause, which apparently he availed himself of when he was president, which the judge told him no longer applies. But it was a recurrent theme of the exchanges.
He began by saying - when he was asked to identify himself, "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq."
"No, no, what is your full name?" And then he repeated, "I'm Saddam Hussein al-Majid, president of Iraq." That's how it all began, after he'd come in, looking very uneasy, as I say, and sat down and looked around.
He was very distracted at this point. He really wasn't engaging with the judge at all. He looked as if he was trying to make a show of not being there. The entire sequence of his time there was a rapid series of mood shifts, and I don't know what psychologists would make of that.
It wasn't exactly a progression from confusion to defiance. You know, you could see the sudden reassertion of anxiety and nervousness in the middle of the defiance.
Sorry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In what ways did that anxiety ...
BURNS: Modulation of the voice, sentences that trailed off, these hand gestures all the time? Hands, like this, like this, on his knees, to his face. Nervous gestures.
Now I'll go to the running translation that was given to me by a fellow that you will all know, in case you're interested, and he's the one that's responsible for it. He is Ali al-Di Nasadir (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) verbally or?
BURNS: He wasn't allowed to do it simultaneously by the judge, initially, because another 11 (ph) he did, during a break. But unfortunately, after the rapid up-lift of the so-called combat footage, which is the footage that everybody's been seeing all afternoon. And I sent a tape down with some hurriedly recorded notes of the scene. That was all that I had an opportunity to do.
So, at that point, and then later through the afternoon, I sat down with him and I went through.
Yes, this is Ali's (ph) notes of the first exchange. He was asked for his full name and title. He said, "I'm the president of Iraq and leader of the armed forces." The judge said, "No, you are the ex-leader." And Saddam answered no, continuous. Then the answer to the exchange about the name, I already gave you.
The judge said, you are the ex-leader of Iraq - no, he told the court clerks, "He is the ex-leader of Iraq, and he is the ex-leader of the dissolved armed forces."
And then Saddam said, "I have introduced myself to you, but you have not introduced yourself to me. So, please, who are you?" And this was the first of many signs through the afternoon that they really didn't know what to expect.
"I am the judge of the criminal courts of Iraq."
"Under what order?" "Under the coalition orders."
"So you repress Iraqis on the orders of the coalition?"
Saddam, "I just want Iraqis to respect Iraqi justice, to respect the Iraqi people. You should not work under the order of the coalition." He's addressing the judge.
The judge said, "I used to work as a judge under the previous regime," establishing his credentials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)
BURNS: Sorry.
Saddam said, "I just want Iraqis to respect Iraqi justice, to respect the Iraqi people. You should not work under the order of the coalition."
The judge replied, "I used to work as a judge under the previous regime." He said, "You will be treated as any other Iraqi civilian would be treated. And if the accusations against you are proven, you will be convicted, as any other normal Iraqi citizen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE).
BURNS: Well, I think I've already given you one quote where he said coalition. I think something I gave you earlier talked about the occupation in the earlier notes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)
BURNS: I'm just going to give you exactly what I got from the translator, because I'm in no position to argue with him, obviously.
Saddam - at this point, I've got - my notes say he's mumbling. Again, he's been defiant and then all of a sudden he's back to nervousness and mumbling. He says, "I don't want to complicate things. I'm a man who respects the law, but I only want the truth to be represented. The truth can only be represented by the Koran and the holy book - the Koran, our holy book. I don't want the truth to be told about Saddam Hussein as a civilian. When I speak about myself," this is Saddam still, "I do not talk about my myself -- I do not talk about my job." This is, I'm sorry, slightly incoherent. Take it as you will.
"I talk as a person who was chosen by the Iraqi people. I want to assure the people that I believe in dignity." So you can tell, even allowing for the rather shifty translation, that this is not tremendously coherent, a lot of this. His mood - not only his mood, but his mind is jumping.
The judge keeps trying to bring it back to the legal process. "We will see if there is enough evidence for these allegations.
Saddam, he cut him off, as he did a number of times, cut the judge off. "As a man of the law you should know that there should be a hearing to try these charges before they are brought to trial."
Judge, "This is a hearing. You have a right to know about the accusations against you."
Saddam, "I need to talk to my lawyers before I talk to you." Saddam, "The order you work under is order 125. It was signed by me personally. You are using an order," the judge had mentioned this order. "You are using an order that has been issued by me to try me. I am a man who studied the law. I ask you, should you call upon the president, taken from the people, and put him on trial under a law that he issued himself?"
The judge, "The presidency is ..."
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Live pictures. John Burns, the pool reporter who was inside the courtroom, watching the exchange between Saddam Hussein and the judge today, when Saddam was brought before the court for the first time. An interesting note that he made about that judge - we haven't heard a lot about the judge that went face to face with Saddam - not yet 40 years old, yet John Burns saying he was very confident.
He couldn't name the name of this judge, of course, because of security reasons and the fact that he remains under high threat. But he did point out that this judge, along with being very confident, was an equal match with Saddam when Saddam was getting, what John says, a bit defiant. Talking about Article 7 with regard to Kuwait, the judge actually laughing at Saddam Hussein when Saddam didn't respond, taking responsibility for what happened in Kuwait in the invasion of Kuwait.
Another very memorable moment, "My name is Saddam Hussein, and I am the president of Iraq." It was an electrifying introduction by Saddam Hussein, as the world sat there and watched him for the first time since his capture.
The former dictator, as you know, went before this judge this morning to hear the charges against him, and that proceeding had promised high drama. It did not disappoint. Would he be confident, or contrite, composed or disheveled, like the last time that we saw him. That was after coming out of that spider hole.
Now, look for yourself, on the left of your screen is Saddam today. On the right side is a picture from December. Now, we're going to replay Saddam's court appearance in its entirety, so now you can see how it all unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq. Saddam Hussein al-Majid, the president of the Republic of Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Nineteen-thirty-seven? Profession? Former president of the Republic of Iraq, no present - current. It's the will of the people. The head of the Baath party that is dissolved, defunct. Commander in chief of the army - between brackets, make former. Residence is Iraq.
Your mother's name? Sabha (ph).
He stated the following. After positively IDing the defendant, he was present before us.
HUSSEIN (through translator): May I have a clarification?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Go ahead, please.
HUSSEIN (through translator): You also have to introduce yourself to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, I am the executive (ph) judge of the central court of Iraq.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So that I have to know, you are an investigative judge of the central court of Iraq. What resolution - what law formed this court?
Oh, the coalition forces? So you are an Iraqi that - you are representing the occupying forces?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But you are ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, God willing.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is an important point. I am a judge in the former regime. I respect the judges. And I am resuming and assuming - continuing my work. You, as any other citizen - you have to answer to any accusation or charge. That's true.
This is an arraignment charge. If it can be proven, then you will be convicted. If not, then everything is fine. The judicial due process is to bring back rights. If there is evidence, you will be convicted. If there is no evidence, you will not. Until now, you are accused before the judicial system.
So, according to that - so, please, let me ... HUSSEIN (through translator): I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge. And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right? Right?
Right is a relative issue. For us, right is our heritage in the Quran, Sharia, right? I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position, but to respect the will of the people that decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.
Therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but, rather, to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will. This is one.
Number two, you summoned me to levy charges - no, you call it crimes. Then - sorry. The charges - the investigative judge, if there's evidence, then I'll defer it to a court of jurisdiction. Let me understand something, who is the defendant? Any defendant, when he comes to a court, before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court, this is investigation. This is investigation now.
Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. But what's important is that you remember that you're a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then judge in the name of people. This is the Iraqi way.
This is an investigative process, before, from the legal standpoint.
You were notified that I have lawyers, right? Am I not supposed to meet with the lawyers before I come before you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If you give me just 10 minutes, let's finish the formalities and I'll come to that. Then if you wait, you will see that you have rights that are guaranteed.
HUSSEIN (through translator): OK, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): According to the law, Mr. Saddam, the investigative judge has to give the defendant - give him the charges that are levied against him, and then reading the rights of all the charges, according to the law, Article 123, 124 and 125. The first step is ...
HUSSEIN (through translator): Are these articles - were they not signed by Saddam Hussein?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, this is the law that was in '73 (ph). HUSSEIN (through translator): So this - then Saddam Hussein was representing the leadership and signed that law. So now you are using the law that Saddam signed against Saddam. Saddam was the people - please. The constitution mechanism - I'm not a lawyer, but I understand. I'm originally a man of law.
Can you - is it allowed to call a president, elected by the people, and charge him according to a law that was enacted under his will and the will of the people.
There is some contradiction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, the judicial process - let me answer this clarification. First, I'm not deliberating a case against you. I'm investigating. I'm investigating with you, interrogating you. Second, the president is a profession, is a position, is a deputy of the society. That's true. And originally, inherently, he's a citizen, and every citizen, according to the law and the constitution, if this person violates then a law has to come before the law. And that law, you know more than I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: More LIVE FROM... straight ahead. Saddam challenges the judge's authority further. You're going to hear that right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MARKET UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: He called Kuwaitis dogs, President Bush the real criminal, and dismissed the whole court proceeding as theater. Let's go back to Saddam Hussein's appearance before the judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The crimes that are - charges, intended killing by using chemical weapons and the Halabja -- no. Second, intended killings to a great number of Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to a number of members of the political parties without trials. Fourth, intended killing to many religious - Iraqi religious people. Fifth, intended killing to many Iraqis in al Faw, without any evidence against them. For you have the right to defend and answer these are the guilties (ph).
Now we come to an important matter. You have heard - the court read the crimes that you're charged - or were attributed to the accused, Saddam Hussein. And according to the - and you were told what the articles of the law that apply to those cases, and the court has read to you the rights and the guarantees that are - that any accused is entitled to, which includes the right of defense and representation, and also the right but to answer any question asked.
And that will never be used as an evidence against you, against the accused. And the court also presented to the accused the right to argue the evidence. The accused asked - requested to meet with a defense lawyer ...
HUSSEIN (through translator): With defense lawyers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, defense lawyers that are his private defense lawyers to be present with him in the investigative sessions.
And in light of that, the minutes were concluded and the investigation is deferred, postponed, until the accused is enabled to contact his representation, his lawyers. Another appointment for the next session will be decided.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The charges that were levied against Saddam Hussein - go ahead.
HUSSEIN (through translator): You should sign, so that I can talk to - OK. Let me sign.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, ANCHOR: Appearing in control, Saddam Hussein continues questioning about the legal proceedings. More of what he had to say straight ahead on LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein makes his first appearance in an Iraqi court. He faces charges stemming from a number of killings during his reign, including the gassing of Kurds in 1998.
One of Saddam's lawyers tells CNN the defense will pursue a change of venue, because any trial in Baghdad will not be a fair one.
Well, now to the conclusion of Saddam Hussein's appearance today before that Iraqi court.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUSSEIN (through translator): but you levied charges as -- in my capacity as president of the republic.
They talk about Halabja. I used to hear about that on the radio, attacking Halabja under the regime of Saddam Hussein. This is only the legal matters and you have the right to, to not answer until a lawyer is present.
This is for the previous review. If you want to review -- repeat it in the presence of the lawyers -- and I don't sign -- then yes. But if you want me to sign and then the lawyers come, then no. You have to hear me out.
Then -- and the occupation of Kuwait, this charge No. 7, unfortunately -- it's unfortunately that this is coming out of an Iraqi. But I know. The law is there. Law, law to charge Saddam Hussein. Because Kuwaitis said that Iraqis -- because the Iraqi -- the Iraqi women will come to the -- to the street for 10 dinars, and I defended the honor of the Iraqi woman, Iraqis? Those animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Don't use foul language and attack. This is a legal session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes, I bear responsibility for everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Anything outside of obscenity or outside the norms of a legal session is not acceptable.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then forgive me. Allow me. The seventh charge was against Saddam Hussein as a president of the republic and a commander of chief of the army, and the army went to Kuwait. OK. Then, in the formal capacity.
Then, is it permissible to charge an official title and the person is to be dealt with in violation of the guarantees that are afforded by the constitution? This is the -- this is the law that you're using to -- to use against me now.
This is the crux -- this is the crux of the matter, Mr. Judge. Charges are levied. Because actions were taken in a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees, presidential guarantees. This is from the legal standpoint.
We'll answer to those charges. This is investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Answer. You tell us. Formally -- this is only for the minutes. If you read the minutes, we see -- we say that we postpone the investigation.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then, please, allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present. That is -- that is fine. But this is your -- I speak for myself. Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: President George Bush saw portions of today's arraignment with Saddam Hussein. Scott McClellan, White House press secretary, spoke to reporters just a little while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for the systemic terrorizing, torture, killing and raping of innocent Iraqis. Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for grave atrocities against the Iraqi people, and this step today begins a process by which the Iraqi people can help bring closure to the dark chapter of their history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: We want to take you live now to the National D-Day Museum in New Orleans, Louisiana, where Vice President Dick Cheney is speaking to a group of Republicans.
Let's listen in.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... and we have kept our word.
The Iraqi people still face determined adversaries. And in the days leading up to the transfer of sovereignty, the enemies of a free Iraq lashed out with all the murderous hatred they could muster. They continue to hope that by terror and violence they can stop the rise of a free Iraq.
But the Iraqi people and their leaders are not intimidated. As Prime Minister Allawi put it, quote, "The Iraqi people are determined to establish a democratic government that provides freedom and equal rights for all of its citizens. We are prepared to fight and, if necessary, to die for the cause," he said.
Iraq's new leaders are determined, and they know they are not alone in the struggle against terror. Their cause is the cause of the civilized world. And the civilized world is standing with them.
Forces from more than 30 nations have troops in Iraq, and they are serving alongside thousands of Iraqi security forces, who are fighting courageously for the future of their own country.
We are also working with Iraq's new leaders, to train a new generation of Iraqi military commanders, so Iraqis can eventually take full responsibility, not only for self-government, but also for their nation's self-defense.
Earlier this week, in Istanbul, NATO agreed to help train Iraq's national security forces. The United Nations Security Council has unanimously approved a resolution endorsing the interim government. And the U.N. has sent a team of expert to help Iraq plan free elections.
The world is united in its support for a free Iraq.
More violence can be expected in the days and weeks ahead. But the day the terrorists dreaded has arrived. After decades of rule by a brutal dictator, Iraq has been returned to its rightful owners, the people of Iraq. And Iraq now joins Afghanistan as a nation transformed from a state sponsor of terror to an ally in the war on terror.
PHILLIPS: Vice President Dick Cheney, talking to a group of Republicans there in New Orleans, Louisiana, via our affiliate WDSU, talking about not only Saddam Hussein in court today, but overall, the war on terror -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: Saddam Hussein's court appearance was broadcast live on Arab satellite television. That gave many Iraqis a front row seat to something they never thought they would see.
CNN's Brent Sadler joins us from Baghdad with some reaction -- Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, indeed, Iraqis were tuned in to the proceedings, eventually televised here in Iraq, in between the power cuts.
And there were some astonishing reactions, certainly in the Shia district of Baghdad, where I spent several hours today, before the televised appearance of Saddam Hussein, and after.
And what I got from talking to these Shia families, many of whom have lost members of their family, close relatives, under the decades of tyrannical rule by Saddam Hussein, was that they felt that, having seen Saddam Hussein broken after his capture last December, they were now seeing him in some sense rebuilt. Back inside their homes, behaving more presidential than prisoner.
They were concerned about the way the proceedings were held. They were concerned about what they said was the apparent inexperience of the judge, who gave him far too much freedom in the minds of these Iraqis, to say what Saddam Hussein had to say.
He was seen continually chastising, throwing scorn and contempt on the whole judicial proceedings, and really behaving very much as he did in the past, when they saw him on television, really lecturing to his ruling Revolutionary Command Council.
So really, a lot of concern on two levels. One, that those who support Saddam Hussein, and we know there are still many people who do support him and the old Ba'athist regime, and some of them are still fighting in the insurgency, may be emboldened, may take comfort from what they see as Saddam Hussein trying to re-establish his confrontational credentials.
But at the same time, also concerned that the trial itself doesn't seem to have what Iraqis want, that is, Saddam Hussein having fair legal representation, Saddam Hussein being put in place by those who are now accusing him.
WHITFIELD: Well, Brent did you get a sense from some of those who are very vocal about their apprehension about whether this legal system is working, whether they think in the long run this legal process will fail?
SADLER: No, I think Iraqis believe that the government of Ayad Allawi and the president of Ghazi al-Yawar are committed to a fair trial.
There are many people who will tell you that Saddam Hussein does not deserve a fair trial. He did not give fair trials to the people he repressed and murdered, and there are countless thousands, hundreds of thousands, they say, so why afford him this fair trial?
But the government is set on embarking on this course of being transparent, of being open and getting on with the process of building new Iraq, and using this trial to show that Iraq is capable of putting on a trial like this under the full scrutiny of not just the world at large, but Iraqis themselves, many of course, who suffered under Saddam Hussein.
One of the points, in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, at the power base where much of his family came from, they were carrying, in some quarters there, pictures -- portraits of Saddam Hussein, somewhat reminiscent of what we saw when he was still in power. But only small pockets of that.
Generally, the overall feeling is yes, the Iraqis are glad he's on trial. Yes, they want to see him convicted. Yes, they believe there's enough evidence. But at the end of the day, they want to see him executed.
WHITFIELD: Blend Sadler in Baghdad, thanks very much.
Well, get more on today's events anytime with our expanded online coverage. Key profiles of key prisoners, including Saddam Hussein, Ali Hassan al-Majid, or also known as Chemical Ali, and much more. Just log on to CNN.com.
Coming up on LIVE FROM..., operating rooms across the U.S. are making a big change today, and it might save your life. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has the story coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: In medical news, before you go to the O.R., surgeons must now double-check to make sure they've got the right patient and the right parts. New guidelines to prevent surgical mistakes go into effect today.
CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're in the pre-op holding area here at Emory Crawford Long Hospital. The topic today, surgical mistakes.
There are about 70 million operations performed yearly in the United States. And one-tenth of one percent of those, according to government figures, result in a surgical mistake.
Today -- starting today, a national campaign underway to try and cut that number down. Here's the problem, and here's how it might be solved.
(voice-over) Willie King had the wrong foot amputated, leaving him with no feet.
Linda McDougal had a double mastectomy, only to find out her biopsy results were switched with another patient. Linda never had breast cancer in the first place.
They are among the thousands of patients who have suffered from medical mistakes in the operating room. And starting today, hospitals are adopting procedures aimed at reducing the numbers. It's as simple as a checklist, the same kind pilots have used for years.
Mary Haun is getting a total knee replacement at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.
MARY HAUN, PATIENT: I was going to put an arrow down there, and then I wanted to write wrong knee. They said I can't do that.
GUPTA: Mary marked her knee with her doctor's initials the night before surgery.
According to new federal rules, the doctor, not just the nurse, must now check with the patient to confirm the type of surgery and the surgery's site.
DR. JAMES ROBERSON, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: I put my initials on just below where you marked it.
GUPTA: Then a nurse makes sure again they have the right patient.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First off, can you tell me your name?
HAUN: Mary.
UNIDENTIFID FEMALE: OK.
GUPTA: And the right procedure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Haun, what are you having done today?
HAUN: Right knee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
GUPTA: Then, before the surgeons make the first cut, a time-out is taken, where the whole surgical staff verifies a third time that they have everything right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that the right knee you have prepped? Are we in agreement?
ROBERSON: Yes.
GUPTA: Surgical checklists are not new, but a national standard is. And doctors are optimistic that it will help bring medical errors down.
ROBERSON: I love it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't practice without it. It's very reassuring to me to be able to glance down at the patient's extremity and see initials there that confirm that I'm doing the correct thing and not the wrong thing.
GUPTA: Still, doctors realize that medicine, a very human profession, will always be vulnerable to mistakes. ROBERSON: There are a lot of steps in this process. And there are a lot of humans involved. And there's always room for human error.
GUPTA: If you're a patient in the hospital and waiting for an operation, expect these questions from the hospital staff.
DR. RUSSELL MASSARO, JOINT COMMITTEE ON ACCREDITATION OF HEALTHCARE ORGANIZATIONS: You should expect it and if you don't find it occurring, you should stop everybody and ask why not.
GUPTA: For Mary, the new O.R. checklist and her own involvement in her care gives her peace of mind.
HAUN: You feel a little more in control of the situation. Because you lay there thinking, "Oh, I hope they get the right knee." But this way, if it's marked, it's going to be right.
GUPTA (on camera): Well, here at the Emory Hospital system, the procedures you just saw have already been in effect for some time, since 2002, in fact.
For other hospitals around the country, you can expect to see these regulations go into force today. If hospitals do not abide, they're at risk of losing their accreditation. So some real teeth behind this.
Patients at home can expect to see these questions every time they visit the hospital from now on.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Quick check on Wall Street. The Dow down 155 points. Rapidly dropping. More LIVE FROM... right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Coming up next in our second hour of LIVE FROM...
PHILLIPS: Analysis of Saddam Hussein's arraignment in Iraq with the man who defended another notorious dictator.
LIVE FROM's hour of power starts right after this break.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 1, 2004 - 12:51 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I want to go back to Baghdad for a moment.
John Burns, he's the famed New York Times journalist, the Pulitzer Prize winner. He was in the courtroom, the print pool reporter. He's briefing other journalists right now on what he saw. I want our viewers to listen.
JOHN BURNS, POOL REPORTER: Where we were, a lot of nervous gestures, hand to the side of the face, hand to the moustache, rubbing his brow. I took down a list of -- of the -- of the moods that I thought I saw him pass through in the course of all of this, if I can find it.
He talked -- he seemed to me to go from -- just a minute -- from initial nervousness, anxiety, disorientation, to irritation, anger, and eventually defiance. And I guess you've seen the -- the tapes of that.
It seemed like it took him some time to find his pitch, to find -- and this was something we saw as the afternoon wore on. They've been in solitary confinement. They knew -- it was evident very little about what they were going to confront when he got into the courtroom.
They did not know the charges they were going to face. And it took him certainly some time to get oriented. And then eventually it seemed to me he kind of found himself again.
We'd heard right from the very first words, as you know, "I'm the president of Iraq." But it took him about -- he was 26 minutes in the courtroom, I would say. It took him about 20 of those minutes really to find his pitch. And once he found his pitch, he was in full-blown defiance.
I could give you more, if I took the time, on the precise gestures, but if you want me to just go to the text, I'll do that. Just a minute. I also, by the way, have some reaction from the Iraqi officials who were there who were principally Rabii and Salem Chalabi, which we can get to later on.
We have finger frequently raised to the left eyebrow. His voice sounded initially slightly broken. You know, he always had that sort of middle pitch voice which didn't sound like the voice of the brutal dictator to me ever.
Today, it sounded even less like that to begin with. He sounded husky. He had that slight Tikriti lisp -- lisp. And he looked initially and sounded very much like a broken man. Scratching his forehead, hands (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on his cheek, finger against his lips. You know the charges, I suppose, do you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BURNS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me.
BURNS: Yes?
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) incidents, did the judge make -- you know, use a word like "genocide" (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
BURNS: No, no, he didn't. But there was -- there was frequent reference, I think, in almost every case, and there was in Saddam's case, too, 406/1/A. It is the section of the Iraqi criminal code that provides for the death penalty.
406/1/A provides for the death penalty in cases of premeditated killing -- killing with intent. And as we'll get to later on, that seemed to really shake some of them. Not Saddam, because by the time that was raised, he was in his full-blown presidential mode.
I don't -- this will come in no particular order. I don't think it matters. But as he was leaving at the end, when his very last words was, "Halas," finished to the judge, is it over, OK, halas, because he refused to sign the legal documents, the guards come to raise him out of the chair, and he said -- and it's a loose translation -- but "Take it easy. I'm an old man." So he's obviously -- he's feeling as well as looking frail.
QUESTION: John, what was the atmosphere like? What sort of presence did he have? Did it seem at all that he was commanding some of it, or was the judge clearly always in command?
BURNS: Initially, the judge -- as you know, the judge is a story in himself, because, you know, not yet 40 years old, extremely assured performance. And never rose to any of the bait that was -- the barbs that were thrown at him all day. Seemed extremely self-confident, and we can get to him if you'd like.
But he's, of course, a man much under threat. We're not allowed to name him. And he -- I spoke to him during one of the recesses. So we can -- we can get to that.
But he was clearly in charge throughout. But the only a moment in the day when you could say it was an equal match was approximately half way through Saddam's time with him, the 26 minutes, when a real debate got going. And it was punch and counter-punch.
QUESTION: Was that -- was that regarding Kuwait, or was it the debate part?
BURNS: At one point, when -- I don't know if you saw this, but when they got to Article 7 of the charges against him, which was Kuwait, he said -- this is a loose translation -- to the judge, "I can't" -- and he laughed mockingly -- and he said, "I can't believe you, as an Iraqi, would say that that was a crime." I don't want to make you uneasy -- "You feel uneasy," he said to the judge, "but you know this is all theater by Bush, the criminal, to help him with his campaign," was the translation I got.
It could be enterprise. You have to understand, these translations are, unfortunately, loose. I did the best I can.
"I was president when we invaded Kuwait. I was looking out for Iraq's interests against those mad dogs who tried to turn Iraqi women into 10-dinar prostitutes."
QUESTION: Can you repeat that, John?
BURNS: "I was president when we invaded Kuwait. I was looking out for Iraqi interests against those mad dogs who tried to turn Iraqi women into 10-dinar prostitutes."
When -- this is Rabii's translation. I'll get to the translator's translation in a second. But these quotes are slightly better than I got from the translator.
What Rabii told me -- and he had taken his own notes of this -- that when Halabja was mentioned in the charge sheet, he said, "Yes, I've heard about that -- I heard about that in the media as well." Yes, that -- during the regime -- at this point, he's talking about himself in the past tense -- that during the regime -- "During the reign" -- I beg your pardon -- "of President Saddam Hussein, poison gas was used there."
At another point, he said...
QUESTION: Were those his words, John?
BURNS: This is what Rabii gave me. Salem Chalabi said -- gave another quotation. Take it as you will. If anybody's got the whole text, they can check it, that he said, "I heard about that on the radio. Halabja, I heard about that on the radio."
"I am still the president of the republic, and the occupation can't take that away. I did all these things," he said, talking about Kuwait and other things, "as the president of the republic. So you should not strip me of my title and put me on trial. There are some procedures according to Iraqi law."
There was some discussion between him and the judge about an immunity clause, which apparently he availed himself of when he was president, which the judge told him no longer applies. But it was a recurrent theme of the exchanges.
He began by saying - when he was asked to identify himself, "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq."
"No, no, what is your full name?" And then he repeated, "I'm Saddam Hussein al-Majid, president of Iraq." That's how it all began, after he'd come in, looking very uneasy, as I say, and sat down and looked around.
He was very distracted at this point. He really wasn't engaging with the judge at all. He looked as if he was trying to make a show of not being there. The entire sequence of his time there was a rapid series of mood shifts, and I don't know what psychologists would make of that.
It wasn't exactly a progression from confusion to defiance. You know, you could see the sudden reassertion of anxiety and nervousness in the middle of the defiance.
Sorry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In what ways did that anxiety ...
BURNS: Modulation of the voice, sentences that trailed off, these hand gestures all the time? Hands, like this, like this, on his knees, to his face. Nervous gestures.
Now I'll go to the running translation that was given to me by a fellow that you will all know, in case you're interested, and he's the one that's responsible for it. He is Ali al-Di Nasadir (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) verbally or?
BURNS: He wasn't allowed to do it simultaneously by the judge, initially, because another 11 (ph) he did, during a break. But unfortunately, after the rapid up-lift of the so-called combat footage, which is the footage that everybody's been seeing all afternoon. And I sent a tape down with some hurriedly recorded notes of the scene. That was all that I had an opportunity to do.
So, at that point, and then later through the afternoon, I sat down with him and I went through.
Yes, this is Ali's (ph) notes of the first exchange. He was asked for his full name and title. He said, "I'm the president of Iraq and leader of the armed forces." The judge said, "No, you are the ex-leader." And Saddam answered no, continuous. Then the answer to the exchange about the name, I already gave you.
The judge said, you are the ex-leader of Iraq - no, he told the court clerks, "He is the ex-leader of Iraq, and he is the ex-leader of the dissolved armed forces."
And then Saddam said, "I have introduced myself to you, but you have not introduced yourself to me. So, please, who are you?" And this was the first of many signs through the afternoon that they really didn't know what to expect.
"I am the judge of the criminal courts of Iraq."
"Under what order?" "Under the coalition orders."
"So you repress Iraqis on the orders of the coalition?"
Saddam, "I just want Iraqis to respect Iraqi justice, to respect the Iraqi people. You should not work under the order of the coalition." He's addressing the judge.
The judge said, "I used to work as a judge under the previous regime," establishing his credentials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)
BURNS: Sorry.
Saddam said, "I just want Iraqis to respect Iraqi justice, to respect the Iraqi people. You should not work under the order of the coalition."
The judge replied, "I used to work as a judge under the previous regime." He said, "You will be treated as any other Iraqi civilian would be treated. And if the accusations against you are proven, you will be convicted, as any other normal Iraqi citizen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE).
BURNS: Well, I think I've already given you one quote where he said coalition. I think something I gave you earlier talked about the occupation in the earlier notes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)
BURNS: I'm just going to give you exactly what I got from the translator, because I'm in no position to argue with him, obviously.
Saddam - at this point, I've got - my notes say he's mumbling. Again, he's been defiant and then all of a sudden he's back to nervousness and mumbling. He says, "I don't want to complicate things. I'm a man who respects the law, but I only want the truth to be represented. The truth can only be represented by the Koran and the holy book - the Koran, our holy book. I don't want the truth to be told about Saddam Hussein as a civilian. When I speak about myself," this is Saddam still, "I do not talk about my myself -- I do not talk about my job." This is, I'm sorry, slightly incoherent. Take it as you will.
"I talk as a person who was chosen by the Iraqi people. I want to assure the people that I believe in dignity." So you can tell, even allowing for the rather shifty translation, that this is not tremendously coherent, a lot of this. His mood - not only his mood, but his mind is jumping.
The judge keeps trying to bring it back to the legal process. "We will see if there is enough evidence for these allegations.
Saddam, he cut him off, as he did a number of times, cut the judge off. "As a man of the law you should know that there should be a hearing to try these charges before they are brought to trial."
Judge, "This is a hearing. You have a right to know about the accusations against you."
Saddam, "I need to talk to my lawyers before I talk to you." Saddam, "The order you work under is order 125. It was signed by me personally. You are using an order," the judge had mentioned this order. "You are using an order that has been issued by me to try me. I am a man who studied the law. I ask you, should you call upon the president, taken from the people, and put him on trial under a law that he issued himself?"
The judge, "The presidency is ..."
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Live pictures. John Burns, the pool reporter who was inside the courtroom, watching the exchange between Saddam Hussein and the judge today, when Saddam was brought before the court for the first time. An interesting note that he made about that judge - we haven't heard a lot about the judge that went face to face with Saddam - not yet 40 years old, yet John Burns saying he was very confident.
He couldn't name the name of this judge, of course, because of security reasons and the fact that he remains under high threat. But he did point out that this judge, along with being very confident, was an equal match with Saddam when Saddam was getting, what John says, a bit defiant. Talking about Article 7 with regard to Kuwait, the judge actually laughing at Saddam Hussein when Saddam didn't respond, taking responsibility for what happened in Kuwait in the invasion of Kuwait.
Another very memorable moment, "My name is Saddam Hussein, and I am the president of Iraq." It was an electrifying introduction by Saddam Hussein, as the world sat there and watched him for the first time since his capture.
The former dictator, as you know, went before this judge this morning to hear the charges against him, and that proceeding had promised high drama. It did not disappoint. Would he be confident, or contrite, composed or disheveled, like the last time that we saw him. That was after coming out of that spider hole.
Now, look for yourself, on the left of your screen is Saddam today. On the right side is a picture from December. Now, we're going to replay Saddam's court appearance in its entirety, so now you can see how it all unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq. Saddam Hussein al-Majid, the president of the Republic of Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Nineteen-thirty-seven? Profession? Former president of the Republic of Iraq, no present - current. It's the will of the people. The head of the Baath party that is dissolved, defunct. Commander in chief of the army - between brackets, make former. Residence is Iraq.
Your mother's name? Sabha (ph).
He stated the following. After positively IDing the defendant, he was present before us.
HUSSEIN (through translator): May I have a clarification?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Go ahead, please.
HUSSEIN (through translator): You also have to introduce yourself to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, I am the executive (ph) judge of the central court of Iraq.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So that I have to know, you are an investigative judge of the central court of Iraq. What resolution - what law formed this court?
Oh, the coalition forces? So you are an Iraqi that - you are representing the occupying forces?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But you are ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, God willing.
HUSSEIN (through translator): So you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is an important point. I am a judge in the former regime. I respect the judges. And I am resuming and assuming - continuing my work. You, as any other citizen - you have to answer to any accusation or charge. That's true.
This is an arraignment charge. If it can be proven, then you will be convicted. If not, then everything is fine. The judicial due process is to bring back rights. If there is evidence, you will be convicted. If there is no evidence, you will not. Until now, you are accused before the judicial system.
So, according to that - so, please, let me ... HUSSEIN (through translator): I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge. And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right? Right?
Right is a relative issue. For us, right is our heritage in the Quran, Sharia, right? I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position, but to respect the will of the people that decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.
Therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but, rather, to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will. This is one.
Number two, you summoned me to levy charges - no, you call it crimes. Then - sorry. The charges - the investigative judge, if there's evidence, then I'll defer it to a court of jurisdiction. Let me understand something, who is the defendant? Any defendant, when he comes to a court, before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court, this is investigation. This is investigation now.
Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. But what's important is that you remember that you're a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then judge in the name of people. This is the Iraqi way.
This is an investigative process, before, from the legal standpoint.
You were notified that I have lawyers, right? Am I not supposed to meet with the lawyers before I come before you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If you give me just 10 minutes, let's finish the formalities and I'll come to that. Then if you wait, you will see that you have rights that are guaranteed.
HUSSEIN (through translator): OK, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): According to the law, Mr. Saddam, the investigative judge has to give the defendant - give him the charges that are levied against him, and then reading the rights of all the charges, according to the law, Article 123, 124 and 125. The first step is ...
HUSSEIN (through translator): Are these articles - were they not signed by Saddam Hussein?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, this is the law that was in '73 (ph). HUSSEIN (through translator): So this - then Saddam Hussein was representing the leadership and signed that law. So now you are using the law that Saddam signed against Saddam. Saddam was the people - please. The constitution mechanism - I'm not a lawyer, but I understand. I'm originally a man of law.
Can you - is it allowed to call a president, elected by the people, and charge him according to a law that was enacted under his will and the will of the people.
There is some contradiction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, the judicial process - let me answer this clarification. First, I'm not deliberating a case against you. I'm investigating. I'm investigating with you, interrogating you. Second, the president is a profession, is a position, is a deputy of the society. That's true. And originally, inherently, he's a citizen, and every citizen, according to the law and the constitution, if this person violates then a law has to come before the law. And that law, you know more than I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: More LIVE FROM... straight ahead. Saddam challenges the judge's authority further. You're going to hear that right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MARKET UPDATE)
PHILLIPS: He called Kuwaitis dogs, President Bush the real criminal, and dismissed the whole court proceeding as theater. Let's go back to Saddam Hussein's appearance before the judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The crimes that are - charges, intended killing by using chemical weapons and the Halabja -- no. Second, intended killings to a great number of Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to a number of members of the political parties without trials. Fourth, intended killing to many religious - Iraqi religious people. Fifth, intended killing to many Iraqis in al Faw, without any evidence against them. For you have the right to defend and answer these are the guilties (ph).
Now we come to an important matter. You have heard - the court read the crimes that you're charged - or were attributed to the accused, Saddam Hussein. And according to the - and you were told what the articles of the law that apply to those cases, and the court has read to you the rights and the guarantees that are - that any accused is entitled to, which includes the right of defense and representation, and also the right but to answer any question asked.
And that will never be used as an evidence against you, against the accused. And the court also presented to the accused the right to argue the evidence. The accused asked - requested to meet with a defense lawyer ...
HUSSEIN (through translator): With defense lawyers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, defense lawyers that are his private defense lawyers to be present with him in the investigative sessions.
And in light of that, the minutes were concluded and the investigation is deferred, postponed, until the accused is enabled to contact his representation, his lawyers. Another appointment for the next session will be decided.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The charges that were levied against Saddam Hussein - go ahead.
HUSSEIN (through translator): You should sign, so that I can talk to - OK. Let me sign.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, ANCHOR: Appearing in control, Saddam Hussein continues questioning about the legal proceedings. More of what he had to say straight ahead on LIVE FROM...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein makes his first appearance in an Iraqi court. He faces charges stemming from a number of killings during his reign, including the gassing of Kurds in 1998.
One of Saddam's lawyers tells CNN the defense will pursue a change of venue, because any trial in Baghdad will not be a fair one.
Well, now to the conclusion of Saddam Hussein's appearance today before that Iraqi court.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUSSEIN (through translator): but you levied charges as -- in my capacity as president of the republic.
They talk about Halabja. I used to hear about that on the radio, attacking Halabja under the regime of Saddam Hussein. This is only the legal matters and you have the right to, to not answer until a lawyer is present.
This is for the previous review. If you want to review -- repeat it in the presence of the lawyers -- and I don't sign -- then yes. But if you want me to sign and then the lawyers come, then no. You have to hear me out.
Then -- and the occupation of Kuwait, this charge No. 7, unfortunately -- it's unfortunately that this is coming out of an Iraqi. But I know. The law is there. Law, law to charge Saddam Hussein. Because Kuwaitis said that Iraqis -- because the Iraqi -- the Iraqi women will come to the -- to the street for 10 dinars, and I defended the honor of the Iraqi woman, Iraqis? Those animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Don't use foul language and attack. This is a legal session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes, I bear responsibility for everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Anything outside of obscenity or outside the norms of a legal session is not acceptable.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then forgive me. Allow me. The seventh charge was against Saddam Hussein as a president of the republic and a commander of chief of the army, and the army went to Kuwait. OK. Then, in the formal capacity.
Then, is it permissible to charge an official title and the person is to be dealt with in violation of the guarantees that are afforded by the constitution? This is the -- this is the law that you're using to -- to use against me now.
This is the crux -- this is the crux of the matter, Mr. Judge. Charges are levied. Because actions were taken in a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees, presidential guarantees. This is from the legal standpoint.
We'll answer to those charges. This is investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Answer. You tell us. Formally -- this is only for the minutes. If you read the minutes, we see -- we say that we postpone the investigation.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then, please, allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present. That is -- that is fine. But this is your -- I speak for myself. Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: President George Bush saw portions of today's arraignment with Saddam Hussein. Scott McClellan, White House press secretary, spoke to reporters just a little while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for the systemic terrorizing, torture, killing and raping of innocent Iraqis. Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for grave atrocities against the Iraqi people, and this step today begins a process by which the Iraqi people can help bring closure to the dark chapter of their history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: We want to take you live now to the National D-Day Museum in New Orleans, Louisiana, where Vice President Dick Cheney is speaking to a group of Republicans.
Let's listen in.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... and we have kept our word.
The Iraqi people still face determined adversaries. And in the days leading up to the transfer of sovereignty, the enemies of a free Iraq lashed out with all the murderous hatred they could muster. They continue to hope that by terror and violence they can stop the rise of a free Iraq.
But the Iraqi people and their leaders are not intimidated. As Prime Minister Allawi put it, quote, "The Iraqi people are determined to establish a democratic government that provides freedom and equal rights for all of its citizens. We are prepared to fight and, if necessary, to die for the cause," he said.
Iraq's new leaders are determined, and they know they are not alone in the struggle against terror. Their cause is the cause of the civilized world. And the civilized world is standing with them.
Forces from more than 30 nations have troops in Iraq, and they are serving alongside thousands of Iraqi security forces, who are fighting courageously for the future of their own country.
We are also working with Iraq's new leaders, to train a new generation of Iraqi military commanders, so Iraqis can eventually take full responsibility, not only for self-government, but also for their nation's self-defense.
Earlier this week, in Istanbul, NATO agreed to help train Iraq's national security forces. The United Nations Security Council has unanimously approved a resolution endorsing the interim government. And the U.N. has sent a team of expert to help Iraq plan free elections.
The world is united in its support for a free Iraq.
More violence can be expected in the days and weeks ahead. But the day the terrorists dreaded has arrived. After decades of rule by a brutal dictator, Iraq has been returned to its rightful owners, the people of Iraq. And Iraq now joins Afghanistan as a nation transformed from a state sponsor of terror to an ally in the war on terror.
PHILLIPS: Vice President Dick Cheney, talking to a group of Republicans there in New Orleans, Louisiana, via our affiliate WDSU, talking about not only Saddam Hussein in court today, but overall, the war on terror -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: Saddam Hussein's court appearance was broadcast live on Arab satellite television. That gave many Iraqis a front row seat to something they never thought they would see.
CNN's Brent Sadler joins us from Baghdad with some reaction -- Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, indeed, Iraqis were tuned in to the proceedings, eventually televised here in Iraq, in between the power cuts.
And there were some astonishing reactions, certainly in the Shia district of Baghdad, where I spent several hours today, before the televised appearance of Saddam Hussein, and after.
And what I got from talking to these Shia families, many of whom have lost members of their family, close relatives, under the decades of tyrannical rule by Saddam Hussein, was that they felt that, having seen Saddam Hussein broken after his capture last December, they were now seeing him in some sense rebuilt. Back inside their homes, behaving more presidential than prisoner.
They were concerned about the way the proceedings were held. They were concerned about what they said was the apparent inexperience of the judge, who gave him far too much freedom in the minds of these Iraqis, to say what Saddam Hussein had to say.
He was seen continually chastising, throwing scorn and contempt on the whole judicial proceedings, and really behaving very much as he did in the past, when they saw him on television, really lecturing to his ruling Revolutionary Command Council.
So really, a lot of concern on two levels. One, that those who support Saddam Hussein, and we know there are still many people who do support him and the old Ba'athist regime, and some of them are still fighting in the insurgency, may be emboldened, may take comfort from what they see as Saddam Hussein trying to re-establish his confrontational credentials.
But at the same time, also concerned that the trial itself doesn't seem to have what Iraqis want, that is, Saddam Hussein having fair legal representation, Saddam Hussein being put in place by those who are now accusing him.
WHITFIELD: Well, Brent did you get a sense from some of those who are very vocal about their apprehension about whether this legal system is working, whether they think in the long run this legal process will fail?
SADLER: No, I think Iraqis believe that the government of Ayad Allawi and the president of Ghazi al-Yawar are committed to a fair trial.
There are many people who will tell you that Saddam Hussein does not deserve a fair trial. He did not give fair trials to the people he repressed and murdered, and there are countless thousands, hundreds of thousands, they say, so why afford him this fair trial?
But the government is set on embarking on this course of being transparent, of being open and getting on with the process of building new Iraq, and using this trial to show that Iraq is capable of putting on a trial like this under the full scrutiny of not just the world at large, but Iraqis themselves, many of course, who suffered under Saddam Hussein.
One of the points, in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, at the power base where much of his family came from, they were carrying, in some quarters there, pictures -- portraits of Saddam Hussein, somewhat reminiscent of what we saw when he was still in power. But only small pockets of that.
Generally, the overall feeling is yes, the Iraqis are glad he's on trial. Yes, they want to see him convicted. Yes, they believe there's enough evidence. But at the end of the day, they want to see him executed.
WHITFIELD: Blend Sadler in Baghdad, thanks very much.
Well, get more on today's events anytime with our expanded online coverage. Key profiles of key prisoners, including Saddam Hussein, Ali Hassan al-Majid, or also known as Chemical Ali, and much more. Just log on to CNN.com.
Coming up on LIVE FROM..., operating rooms across the U.S. are making a big change today, and it might save your life. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has the story coming up next.
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PHILLIPS: In medical news, before you go to the O.R., surgeons must now double-check to make sure they've got the right patient and the right parts. New guidelines to prevent surgical mistakes go into effect today.
CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has the details.
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DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're in the pre-op holding area here at Emory Crawford Long Hospital. The topic today, surgical mistakes.
There are about 70 million operations performed yearly in the United States. And one-tenth of one percent of those, according to government figures, result in a surgical mistake.
Today -- starting today, a national campaign underway to try and cut that number down. Here's the problem, and here's how it might be solved.
(voice-over) Willie King had the wrong foot amputated, leaving him with no feet.
Linda McDougal had a double mastectomy, only to find out her biopsy results were switched with another patient. Linda never had breast cancer in the first place.
They are among the thousands of patients who have suffered from medical mistakes in the operating room. And starting today, hospitals are adopting procedures aimed at reducing the numbers. It's as simple as a checklist, the same kind pilots have used for years.
Mary Haun is getting a total knee replacement at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.
MARY HAUN, PATIENT: I was going to put an arrow down there, and then I wanted to write wrong knee. They said I can't do that.
GUPTA: Mary marked her knee with her doctor's initials the night before surgery.
According to new federal rules, the doctor, not just the nurse, must now check with the patient to confirm the type of surgery and the surgery's site.
DR. JAMES ROBERSON, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: I put my initials on just below where you marked it.
GUPTA: Then a nurse makes sure again they have the right patient.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First off, can you tell me your name?
HAUN: Mary.
UNIDENTIFID FEMALE: OK.
GUPTA: And the right procedure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Haun, what are you having done today?
HAUN: Right knee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
GUPTA: Then, before the surgeons make the first cut, a time-out is taken, where the whole surgical staff verifies a third time that they have everything right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that the right knee you have prepped? Are we in agreement?
ROBERSON: Yes.
GUPTA: Surgical checklists are not new, but a national standard is. And doctors are optimistic that it will help bring medical errors down.
ROBERSON: I love it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't practice without it. It's very reassuring to me to be able to glance down at the patient's extremity and see initials there that confirm that I'm doing the correct thing and not the wrong thing.
GUPTA: Still, doctors realize that medicine, a very human profession, will always be vulnerable to mistakes. ROBERSON: There are a lot of steps in this process. And there are a lot of humans involved. And there's always room for human error.
GUPTA: If you're a patient in the hospital and waiting for an operation, expect these questions from the hospital staff.
DR. RUSSELL MASSARO, JOINT COMMITTEE ON ACCREDITATION OF HEALTHCARE ORGANIZATIONS: You should expect it and if you don't find it occurring, you should stop everybody and ask why not.
GUPTA: For Mary, the new O.R. checklist and her own involvement in her care gives her peace of mind.
HAUN: You feel a little more in control of the situation. Because you lay there thinking, "Oh, I hope they get the right knee." But this way, if it's marked, it's going to be right.
GUPTA (on camera): Well, here at the Emory Hospital system, the procedures you just saw have already been in effect for some time, since 2002, in fact.
For other hospitals around the country, you can expect to see these regulations go into force today. If hospitals do not abide, they're at risk of losing their accreditation. So some real teeth behind this.
Patients at home can expect to see these questions every time they visit the hospital from now on.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Quick check on Wall Street. The Dow down 155 points. Rapidly dropping. More LIVE FROM... right after this.
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WHITFIELD: Coming up next in our second hour of LIVE FROM...
PHILLIPS: Analysis of Saddam Hussein's arraignment in Iraq with the man who defended another notorious dictator.
LIVE FROM's hour of power starts right after this break.
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