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Saddam Still Claims Iraqi Presidency to Judge; Boston Students Debate Meaning of Iraqi Transfer of Power
Aired July 01, 2004 - 13:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): Those animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Don't attack. This is a legal session.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A defiant Saddam Hussein, challenging authority and rejecting charges of genocide and war crime. What legal steps does he face next?
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Images of Saddam inciting support. Even as he's accused of oppressing them, some Iraqis still vow to shed their blood for Saddam.
PHILLIPS: Do Iraqis have faith in their legal system? Will Saddam have a fair trial? We'll have Iraqi reaction and what it could mean for the future of their country.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Miles is on assignment.
WHITFIELD: And I'm Fredricka Whitfield. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM... begins right now.
PHILLIPS: Iraqi officials call it justice. Saddam Hussein called it theater. Many of the people he once ruled say he is getting his due.
Today, Saddam made his first appearance in court, facing charges of conducting a 30-year reign of terror. Our coverage will continue with CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, who was in that courtroom. She's standing by to tell us what it was like.
But first, let's listen to a chunk of the proceeding in which the judge asked him to answer the charges and sign the court papers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): This is the crux of the matter. Your levy charges for action carried under the -- a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then answer -- then answer. Then answer formally and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then, please, allow me -- not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I can -- I talk for myself. I speak for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Now to Christiane Amanpour. She was in that courtroom.
Christiane, you've been giving us the riveting details since early this morning. For our viewers just tuning in, lay it out once again.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I want to say that the pictures do not do the moment justice. Because when you first came in, it was really quite a different Saddam than you're seeing on your close-up shots of him now.
He came into the courtroom, escorted on each side by a large Iraqi security guard. And he was sort of shuffling in, and he was taken to his seat, and he sort of sat down quite heavily.
At that time, he did look quite dazed. He sort of looked disoriented. A bit of a broken man, I thought. He was very much thinner than he had been when we last saw him.
He had still the beard. We didn't know whether he had a beard of a moustache. Obviously, significantly trimmed from when he was found in that hole in December.
He had very big bags under his eyes. His skin was very dark. And he did seem quite tired and listless.
It was only after he started to discuss and debate things with the judge that he became more animated. He was asked his name, to confirm his name, and he said twice that he is Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq.
He was challenged on that - you mean former president. And he said, no, I'm the president. I say that because I respect the will of the Iraqi people. They elected me president. And then he asked a couple of times about shouldn't he have legal representation. The judge said yes, and I'm going to read your rights. This is not a - I'm not judging you right now, this is just an investigative hearing, and you will be given legal representation, or you choose your own legal representation.
He then read a series of charges that involve killings of political opponents, whether they be political or religious, the campaign of terror against the Kurds, the gassing of the Kurds, the brutal suppression of the rebellions after the first Gulf War, the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south, and also the invasion of Kuwait, which triggered the first Gulf War.
He was very defiant when it came to Kuwait. He couldn't understand how any Iraqi, he said, how a judge could think that was a crime. He kept saying that I did that to defend the Iraqi people. He implied the Kuwaitis were bringing down the price of oil, and it would force Iraqi women, as he said, to become 10-dinar prostitutes.
He insulted the Kuwaitis. He was told by the judge that he should not be using that kind of language in the court. The judge reminded him that he was in a court of law. And at the end, when the judge had read him his rights and informed him of the process and informed him that he could have legal counsel, the judge asked him to sign the formal minutes, the formal record of what had gone on in the court room.
And Saddam Hussein wouldn't. He said I won't do that, I'll wait until I have my lawyers with me. And at that point, the judge said, then I will sign it for you on behalf of the court. You are informed of your rights. And Saddam Hussein said, "Is it finished now," and the judge said, "Yes." And Saddam said, OK, "hallas." It's the Arabic word for finished, it's over. And he got up and he was sort of shuffling a little bit out. One of the guards grabbed him through one arm, and the other one just stood next to him and they took it out.
And then I think he was handcuffed again, because he was handcuffed just before he got into the courtroom, and he was taken back onto an American helicopter and back to detention, where he is under U.S. military guard.
PHILLIPS: Christiane, we've talked a lot about Saddam. Another interesting character in this so-called theater, as Saddam Hussein says it is, this judge, not yet 40 years old, yet came across very confident, did go up against Saddam Hussein when it came down to Article 7 and Kuwait, even sort of laughing at Saddam when Saddam responded to that. What was your take on the judge? How do you think he did? What's the reputation of this man? And I know we can't mention his name.
AMANPOUR: Well, as you say, he's a young judge. He has had quite - a little bit of experience. He was the one, we are told, who issued some papers against Muqtada al-Sadr a few months ago. He is the investigative judge in this process. And I would characterize the back and fourth between the two of them as the judge being mostly in charge, and Saddam Hussein trying to ask questions, trying to get explanations.
I never judged that Saddam Hussein was being overly combative. He was very angry about the Kuwait incident. Occasionally, he had wry asides. He looked to us in the witness box, if you like, where we were sitting. And he's used to - my Iraqi colleagues reminded me - when he gave speeches or talks, he used to sort of look aside at the people who were around him, expecting them to be wildly clapping or applauding, and which is of course what they did when he was still president.
And it looked like he was looking to us for that kind of validation when he was making sort of wry comments. But, of course, everybody in the witness box was just riveted and waiting to see what he was going to say. So he immediately turned his attention back to the judge. And it seemed to me the judge was mostly in control. It never got out of control. Saddam was never, at any point, taking over the proceedings. And he seemed to take it.
He kept insisting that he should be treated as president, and he kept insisting that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency.
PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour, live from Baghdad.
Fred?
WHITFIELD: Well, let's hear what's being said about Saddam's day in court in the Arab world. There, people saw the proceedings broadcast live on satellite television. I want to bring in CNN's senior editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr.
All right, well, how is it being received? We know that they were watching it live as it was happening. They didn't have to worry about translations. What's the overall consensus?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, they're saying he was challenging and he was confident. You know, we're calling him challenging also, but in their words, he is confident, which speaks volumes about how he's seen on Arab media and how he's going to be seen by Arab viewers.
Remember, Arabic is a very complex language. We always talk about the nuances of the language. The body language is so important. You can say the same word with three different kinds of body language, and that same word can mean so many things.
So, watching Saddam Hussein in that courtroom today, millions of Arabs saw a challenging person, someone who's trying to turn the table around and try to question the judge instead of just answer the judge's questions. Also, we have to remember that Saddam Hussein still has some supporters around the Middle East, and we have the Arab networks to show us that kind of support.
Al-Jazeera, for example, got reaction from Morocco, from Egypt, from Lebanon and from Baghdad. And it's amazing, when you listen to these people, like on the streets of Cairo, people saying we still support Saddam Hussein, still believe he's the president of Iraq. He never did anything wrong ...
WHITFIELD: And so that composure, of being in control, might that embolden those who do feel very strongly in support of him?
NASR: Right. It's going to speak to them in a clear, clear way. It's going to tell them that I'm still here, I'm defiant, I'm still the strong man I've always been. If it's in his mind that he thinks that, or on the street that they think that, I think he gave them a picture that he is defiant and that he's still strong.
Let's listen to some of these voices in support or against Saddam Hussein. Let's start with the first batch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Iraq used to have a strong economy, considered to be the best in the region. Because of him, we have no economy, no progress and no prosperity. He caused the destruction of this once-great Arab country. He waged unnecessary wars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Stability is not there since Saddam was toppled. Since he was toppled, it's chaos and disorder. There's no security, there is no stability. No one can sleep in their house with feeling safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: So someone told me today, this is one of those stories where every single person is going to have an opinion. You're not going to have one or two opinions. It's going to be millions of opinions, each one, each Arab person is going to have something to say about what happened today.
WHITFIELD: There is no one consensus. Even though with some immediacy of seeing the pictures live, seeing it being broadcast in their language, there isn't that immediate response, is there? Some people will take a little bit of time to mull it over, consider the thoughts of their neighbors and friends, before they formulate their own opinion.
NASR: Especially in the Arab world, and particularly in Iraq. Remember, this is a country that was under the rule of Saddam Hussein for so many years. People are not used to speaking their mind and expressing their opinion. They do have to think about it. They have to think about the consequences. They're not used to free speech yet.
WHITFIELD: And some are still afraid of the consequences, just in case they don't see this man punished for the crimes that he's being accused of.
NASR: Right. That's why experts tell us - that's why many people are asking for the death penalty. People are saying, hang him in the highest place in Baghdad, because they want to see that the man is gone, and gone for good, before they can relax and speak their mind or do the things that they've always wanted to do.
WHITFIELD: Octavia Nasr, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Well, as the world closely watched today's court appearance, so too did White House officials. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now with reaction from the White House.
Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Kyra.
White House officials say these court proceedings are evidence of a new Iraq, one in which they say the rule of law and justice prevail. White House spokesman Scott McClellan, saying a short time ago that President Bush now has had the opportunity to watch some of the news coverage of Saddam Hussein's arraignment earlier today. We were told that the president was in the midst of his usual daily briefings at the time that the news was developing, and so had not had a chance. We understand the president has now viewed some of that news coverage.
And President Bush is pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders are going to be brought to justice by the Iraqi people in Iraqi courts. Spokesman Scott McClellan, calling the events in Iraq an important step for the Iraqi people, saying it will help bring closure to what he called the dark past of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today, this is case number one, the people of Iraq versus Saddam Hussein. Justice is being served to Saddam Hussein and his brutal band of oppressors, by the Iraqi people, in an Iraqi court. Saddam Hussein is facing the justice he denied the Iraqi people, most notably the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis who were victims of his brutality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now, Scott McClellan was also asked to comment on whether or not President Bush had any comment on some of the statements made by Saddam Hussein during the court proceeding, in which the former Iraqi leader called President Bush a criminal. Scott McClellan would not respond directly, instead saying only that he is sure Saddam Hussein has plenty of things to say, in effect, dismissing that, but saying what was important was that Saddam Hussein was being brought to justice by the Iraqi people, in the Iraqi court system.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Elaine Quijano, live from the White House. Thanks.
Fred.
WHITFIELD: Well, some of Saddam's closest confidants, most wanted by the coalition, have also had their day in court. Eleven of Saddam's top lieutenants face an arraignment today, answering to charges, and we expect to get that videotape of those proceedings, and when we do, we'll bring them to you. The 11 are in Iraqi legal custody, and like Saddam, remain in U.S. military hands.
Among the 11 are former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz and Saddam's first cousin - Chemical, as they call him, Chemical Ali - Ali Hasan al-Majid.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Saddam Hussein asked for his lawyers more than once today. How do you defend a former leader accused of such horrendous crimes? We'll talk with a lawyer who defended Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega, when he faced similar charges.
Also ahead, stepping up security at America's ports. As of today, it's supposed to be tougher for terrorists to get through.
And boldly going where no probe has gone before. Cassini captures some never-before-seen images of Saturn. We'll beam them up, later here on LIVE FROM...
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM... on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: A defiant defendant, Saddam Hussein proves his contempt for the court today in Iraq. The former dictator of Iraq questioned preliminary charges that include the gassing of Kurds and the invasion of Kuwait. But the real question is, can Saddam get a fair trial.
Some insight now from criminal defense attorney Frank Rubino, who - he's in Miami. You'll remember, he represented many people in high- profile cases, including defending General Manuel Noriega.
Frank, thanks for being with us.
FRANK RUBINO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good afternoon.
PHILLIPS: Well, I have a feeling I know what you're going to say to this. Do you think Saddam's going to get a fair trial in Iraq?
RUBINO: Well, I'm more concerned, is he going to get the perception of a fair trial, even if he does get one, which I sincerely doubt he will.
PHILLIPS: I'm sorry, go ahead.
RUBINO: The deck is so clearly stacked against him, how can any judge say that I can put aside all my personal feelings and judge this case solely on the evidence that's put before me?
PHILLIPS: Well, I would assume that when you have to go forward and defend someone like this, it's going to be a tremendous challenge to humanize Saddam Hussein. Because, as a defense attorney, you're going to want to get people to feel sorry for him, right?
RUBINO: Oh, obviously. You're going to have to convince this jury that he doesn't have horns and a tail and is not a direct descendant of Satan. You're going to have to let this jury see that he does have some human side, some human characteristics, that they can relate to .
PHILLIPS: Were you able to humanize Manuel Noriega?
RUBINO: Not very well, to be very candid with you. At the time when General Noriega came to the United States, he was a strong military leader, he had strong feelings and he didn't trust our system and remained very rigid, to be very candid with you, throughout his trial.
PHILLIPS: Well, you're looking at Saddam Hussein, there you go, another military leader, and also very defiant. How would you go about trying to humanize this man? How would you go about trying to defend him? And also the issue of plausible deniability, showing that hey, he didn't really know what was going on.
RUBINO: A very hard task, because as we saw him today, he sort of bordered on a little bit of belligerent today. And what I would be concerned about if I were his lawyer, is he going to run the defense team, or attempt to do so? Also, your question, plausible deniability - the real question is, how far up the ladder does knowledge go? And he's obviously going to be claiming that I am so high up the ladder that I had no idea what people below me were doing.
PHILLIPS: Frank, why didn't he have lawyers there? Or why was he not allowed to have lawyers there? That was a bit confusing.
RUBINO: I was shocked to see that. The Iraqis want to put on a good face. They want to show they're giving him every right that he's entitled to under international law, and then he shows up at a hearing with no attorney by his side. On two or three occasions, he asked for an attorney, and the judge says we'll get you one later.
They should never have brought him in the door of the courtroom without a lawyer by his side.
PHILLIPS: What about the psychological state? This a man who still thinks he's the president of Iraq. You looked at all the mannerisms, from the sentences kind of tapering off, and he was sweating, and he kept fumbling with his words. Is that going to play a part here? How do you go about dealing with the psychological side, here?
RUBINO: It's going to play a part, but it's going to play a part, in my opinion, to his downfall. He was - actually, as I say, bordering on belligerent. I am the president. I am the leader. How dare you do this to me - instead of just accepting the fact that he is in this position and doing the best he can to extricate himself from it, he's going head to head with it.
PHILLIPS: Thirty tons of evidence. Where the heck do you start as a defense attorney?
RUBINO: Well, I understand there's 20 lawyers on the case, and it's going to take that many to even just begin to look through the evidence to get some vague idea of what the prosecution will be about. It's a monumental task.
PHILLIPS: Would you defend him?
RUBINO: Absolutely not.
PHILLIPS: Why not?
RUBINO: Because I think this goes beyond a criminal defense. I think this person is - I think he's an evil person. Even though I'm a lawyer, I have personal opinion. And I don't take every case that comes through my door. I take cases that I honestly believe in, cases that I think people's rights need to be protected.
This is not the man that I would ever want to represent.
PHILLIPS: So you don't think Manuel Noriega was an evil person?
RUBINO: Well, I think he was a long way from Saddam Hussein. If Manuel Noriega did everything the government said he did, he allowed some laundered drug money to go through a few banks. That's a long way from genocide, gassing people and just generally destroying the quality of life for people.
PHILLIPS: Frank, special Iraqi tribunal, is this the way to go? Or should it be a U.N. tribunal?
RUBINO: It should be the world court at the Hague. Clearly, this case is too big, too important. It goes out so far beyond just things that occurred in Iraq. It goes into genocide. It goes into the invasion of Kuwait. It goes into numerous areas. And, again, we have the perception of fairness.
Five Iraqi judges - every one of those judges were the victim in some way, shape or form of the defendant, Saddam Hussein. Now they're going to say, I can put all this aside, be fair and impartial. Impossible.
The world court at the Hague was designed for this. That's the purpose of it. That's where it belongs.
PHILLIPS: As this goes forward, Frank Rubino, I look forward to talking to you again.
RUBINO: Thank you. My pleasure being here
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Frank.
In Boston, a group of graduate students is debating the details, and what the long-anticipated transfer of power in Iraq really means. CNN's Boston bureau chief, Dan Lothian, listens in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): On the seventh floor at Tufts University's Fletcher School, Professor Kathleen Hamill, has been leading 17 graduate students, some of them aspiring diplomats, in a case study on Iraq.
KATHLEEN HAMILL, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: It's a great case study, because there are so unknowns.
LOTHIAN: After watching a video clip of Monday's surprise handover, students begin dissecting the details, focusing on whether the transition has any meaning. Amid some cynicism ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has changed is that the blue portfolio was handed from Bremer to the other guy.
LOTHIAN: There are deeper debates about human rights, about continued U.S. and coalition military control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that nullify the whole resolution?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't nullify the whole resolution.
LOTHIAN: About who controls the money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The vast amount of money is controlled by the U.S.
LOTHIAN: At this table, an argument in support of the U.S. and coalition's role, and the transfer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having a legitimate government, and having sovereignty, again, I think is absolutely critical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Transfer of power here (ph) is largely symbolic.
LOTHIAN (on-camera): Even though these graduate students are far removed from the official process, they are nonetheless asking some of the same questions and debating some of the same issues as U.S., coalition and Iraqi officials, and having some of the same frustrations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's sort of difficult, because it's open- ended, right? We don't yet know what's going to come out of it.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): But most agree, an important first step has been taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a new beginning, and maybe we can move away from the ...
LOTHIAN: A foreign policy debate in the classroom, and beyond.
HAMILL: These are students that hopefully someday will be in a position to make decisions like that.
LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN Boston.
PHILLIPS: A plot to kill the president becomes a controversial plot for a new novel. Is it a case of free speech gone too far?
(MARKET UPDATE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Time for some news across America now. Operation Port Shield gets underway, and new homeland security rules take effect at the nation's ports today. They include tighter surveillance and posting of security guards on ships.
The U.S. Coast Guard says it expects only a few ships will be denied entry into ports today because of the new regulations.
In Alaska, massive fire. Hundreds of people are fleeing a wildfire northeast of Fairbanks after it doubled in size overnight. So far, about 117,000 acres have been scorched.
And in Washington, the Tractor Man gets a break. A judge yesterday reduced the sentence of North Carolina tobacco farmer Dwight Watson from six years to 16 months. As you may recall, Watson drove his tractor into the National Mall last month and claimed to have bombs. Forty-seven hours later, he surrendered. Federal prosecutors are considering whether to appeal the judge's latest decision.
A lot of red arrows on Wall Street today, one day after the Federal Reserve raised interest rates. Stocks are selling off. Mary Snow is watching all the action live from the New York Stock Exchange, and, Mary, what's triggering investors to sell?
(MARKET UPDATE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired July 1, 2004 - 13:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): Those animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Don't attack. This is a legal session.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A defiant Saddam Hussein, challenging authority and rejecting charges of genocide and war crime. What legal steps does he face next?
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Images of Saddam inciting support. Even as he's accused of oppressing them, some Iraqis still vow to shed their blood for Saddam.
PHILLIPS: Do Iraqis have faith in their legal system? Will Saddam have a fair trial? We'll have Iraqi reaction and what it could mean for the future of their country.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Miles is on assignment.
WHITFIELD: And I'm Fredricka Whitfield. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM... begins right now.
PHILLIPS: Iraqi officials call it justice. Saddam Hussein called it theater. Many of the people he once ruled say he is getting his due.
Today, Saddam made his first appearance in court, facing charges of conducting a 30-year reign of terror. Our coverage will continue with CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, who was in that courtroom. She's standing by to tell us what it was like.
But first, let's listen to a chunk of the proceeding in which the judge asked him to answer the charges and sign the court papers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): This is the crux of the matter. Your levy charges for action carried under the -- a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then answer -- then answer. Then answer formally and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then, please, allow me -- not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I can -- I talk for myself. I speak for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Now to Christiane Amanpour. She was in that courtroom.
Christiane, you've been giving us the riveting details since early this morning. For our viewers just tuning in, lay it out once again.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I want to say that the pictures do not do the moment justice. Because when you first came in, it was really quite a different Saddam than you're seeing on your close-up shots of him now.
He came into the courtroom, escorted on each side by a large Iraqi security guard. And he was sort of shuffling in, and he was taken to his seat, and he sort of sat down quite heavily.
At that time, he did look quite dazed. He sort of looked disoriented. A bit of a broken man, I thought. He was very much thinner than he had been when we last saw him.
He had still the beard. We didn't know whether he had a beard of a moustache. Obviously, significantly trimmed from when he was found in that hole in December.
He had very big bags under his eyes. His skin was very dark. And he did seem quite tired and listless.
It was only after he started to discuss and debate things with the judge that he became more animated. He was asked his name, to confirm his name, and he said twice that he is Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq.
He was challenged on that - you mean former president. And he said, no, I'm the president. I say that because I respect the will of the Iraqi people. They elected me president. And then he asked a couple of times about shouldn't he have legal representation. The judge said yes, and I'm going to read your rights. This is not a - I'm not judging you right now, this is just an investigative hearing, and you will be given legal representation, or you choose your own legal representation.
He then read a series of charges that involve killings of political opponents, whether they be political or religious, the campaign of terror against the Kurds, the gassing of the Kurds, the brutal suppression of the rebellions after the first Gulf War, the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south, and also the invasion of Kuwait, which triggered the first Gulf War.
He was very defiant when it came to Kuwait. He couldn't understand how any Iraqi, he said, how a judge could think that was a crime. He kept saying that I did that to defend the Iraqi people. He implied the Kuwaitis were bringing down the price of oil, and it would force Iraqi women, as he said, to become 10-dinar prostitutes.
He insulted the Kuwaitis. He was told by the judge that he should not be using that kind of language in the court. The judge reminded him that he was in a court of law. And at the end, when the judge had read him his rights and informed him of the process and informed him that he could have legal counsel, the judge asked him to sign the formal minutes, the formal record of what had gone on in the court room.
And Saddam Hussein wouldn't. He said I won't do that, I'll wait until I have my lawyers with me. And at that point, the judge said, then I will sign it for you on behalf of the court. You are informed of your rights. And Saddam Hussein said, "Is it finished now," and the judge said, "Yes." And Saddam said, OK, "hallas." It's the Arabic word for finished, it's over. And he got up and he was sort of shuffling a little bit out. One of the guards grabbed him through one arm, and the other one just stood next to him and they took it out.
And then I think he was handcuffed again, because he was handcuffed just before he got into the courtroom, and he was taken back onto an American helicopter and back to detention, where he is under U.S. military guard.
PHILLIPS: Christiane, we've talked a lot about Saddam. Another interesting character in this so-called theater, as Saddam Hussein says it is, this judge, not yet 40 years old, yet came across very confident, did go up against Saddam Hussein when it came down to Article 7 and Kuwait, even sort of laughing at Saddam when Saddam responded to that. What was your take on the judge? How do you think he did? What's the reputation of this man? And I know we can't mention his name.
AMANPOUR: Well, as you say, he's a young judge. He has had quite - a little bit of experience. He was the one, we are told, who issued some papers against Muqtada al-Sadr a few months ago. He is the investigative judge in this process. And I would characterize the back and fourth between the two of them as the judge being mostly in charge, and Saddam Hussein trying to ask questions, trying to get explanations.
I never judged that Saddam Hussein was being overly combative. He was very angry about the Kuwait incident. Occasionally, he had wry asides. He looked to us in the witness box, if you like, where we were sitting. And he's used to - my Iraqi colleagues reminded me - when he gave speeches or talks, he used to sort of look aside at the people who were around him, expecting them to be wildly clapping or applauding, and which is of course what they did when he was still president.
And it looked like he was looking to us for that kind of validation when he was making sort of wry comments. But, of course, everybody in the witness box was just riveted and waiting to see what he was going to say. So he immediately turned his attention back to the judge. And it seemed to me the judge was mostly in control. It never got out of control. Saddam was never, at any point, taking over the proceedings. And he seemed to take it.
He kept insisting that he should be treated as president, and he kept insisting that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency.
PHILLIPS: Christiane Amanpour, live from Baghdad.
Fred?
WHITFIELD: Well, let's hear what's being said about Saddam's day in court in the Arab world. There, people saw the proceedings broadcast live on satellite television. I want to bring in CNN's senior editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr.
All right, well, how is it being received? We know that they were watching it live as it was happening. They didn't have to worry about translations. What's the overall consensus?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, they're saying he was challenging and he was confident. You know, we're calling him challenging also, but in their words, he is confident, which speaks volumes about how he's seen on Arab media and how he's going to be seen by Arab viewers.
Remember, Arabic is a very complex language. We always talk about the nuances of the language. The body language is so important. You can say the same word with three different kinds of body language, and that same word can mean so many things.
So, watching Saddam Hussein in that courtroom today, millions of Arabs saw a challenging person, someone who's trying to turn the table around and try to question the judge instead of just answer the judge's questions. Also, we have to remember that Saddam Hussein still has some supporters around the Middle East, and we have the Arab networks to show us that kind of support.
Al-Jazeera, for example, got reaction from Morocco, from Egypt, from Lebanon and from Baghdad. And it's amazing, when you listen to these people, like on the streets of Cairo, people saying we still support Saddam Hussein, still believe he's the president of Iraq. He never did anything wrong ...
WHITFIELD: And so that composure, of being in control, might that embolden those who do feel very strongly in support of him?
NASR: Right. It's going to speak to them in a clear, clear way. It's going to tell them that I'm still here, I'm defiant, I'm still the strong man I've always been. If it's in his mind that he thinks that, or on the street that they think that, I think he gave them a picture that he is defiant and that he's still strong.
Let's listen to some of these voices in support or against Saddam Hussein. Let's start with the first batch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Iraq used to have a strong economy, considered to be the best in the region. Because of him, we have no economy, no progress and no prosperity. He caused the destruction of this once-great Arab country. He waged unnecessary wars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Stability is not there since Saddam was toppled. Since he was toppled, it's chaos and disorder. There's no security, there is no stability. No one can sleep in their house with feeling safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: So someone told me today, this is one of those stories where every single person is going to have an opinion. You're not going to have one or two opinions. It's going to be millions of opinions, each one, each Arab person is going to have something to say about what happened today.
WHITFIELD: There is no one consensus. Even though with some immediacy of seeing the pictures live, seeing it being broadcast in their language, there isn't that immediate response, is there? Some people will take a little bit of time to mull it over, consider the thoughts of their neighbors and friends, before they formulate their own opinion.
NASR: Especially in the Arab world, and particularly in Iraq. Remember, this is a country that was under the rule of Saddam Hussein for so many years. People are not used to speaking their mind and expressing their opinion. They do have to think about it. They have to think about the consequences. They're not used to free speech yet.
WHITFIELD: And some are still afraid of the consequences, just in case they don't see this man punished for the crimes that he's being accused of.
NASR: Right. That's why experts tell us - that's why many people are asking for the death penalty. People are saying, hang him in the highest place in Baghdad, because they want to see that the man is gone, and gone for good, before they can relax and speak their mind or do the things that they've always wanted to do.
WHITFIELD: Octavia Nasr, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Well, as the world closely watched today's court appearance, so too did White House officials. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now with reaction from the White House.
Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Kyra.
White House officials say these court proceedings are evidence of a new Iraq, one in which they say the rule of law and justice prevail. White House spokesman Scott McClellan, saying a short time ago that President Bush now has had the opportunity to watch some of the news coverage of Saddam Hussein's arraignment earlier today. We were told that the president was in the midst of his usual daily briefings at the time that the news was developing, and so had not had a chance. We understand the president has now viewed some of that news coverage.
And President Bush is pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders are going to be brought to justice by the Iraqi people in Iraqi courts. Spokesman Scott McClellan, calling the events in Iraq an important step for the Iraqi people, saying it will help bring closure to what he called the dark past of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today, this is case number one, the people of Iraq versus Saddam Hussein. Justice is being served to Saddam Hussein and his brutal band of oppressors, by the Iraqi people, in an Iraqi court. Saddam Hussein is facing the justice he denied the Iraqi people, most notably the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis who were victims of his brutality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now, Scott McClellan was also asked to comment on whether or not President Bush had any comment on some of the statements made by Saddam Hussein during the court proceeding, in which the former Iraqi leader called President Bush a criminal. Scott McClellan would not respond directly, instead saying only that he is sure Saddam Hussein has plenty of things to say, in effect, dismissing that, but saying what was important was that Saddam Hussein was being brought to justice by the Iraqi people, in the Iraqi court system.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Elaine Quijano, live from the White House. Thanks.
Fred.
WHITFIELD: Well, some of Saddam's closest confidants, most wanted by the coalition, have also had their day in court. Eleven of Saddam's top lieutenants face an arraignment today, answering to charges, and we expect to get that videotape of those proceedings, and when we do, we'll bring them to you. The 11 are in Iraqi legal custody, and like Saddam, remain in U.S. military hands.
Among the 11 are former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz and Saddam's first cousin - Chemical, as they call him, Chemical Ali - Ali Hasan al-Majid.
Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Saddam Hussein asked for his lawyers more than once today. How do you defend a former leader accused of such horrendous crimes? We'll talk with a lawyer who defended Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega, when he faced similar charges.
Also ahead, stepping up security at America's ports. As of today, it's supposed to be tougher for terrorists to get through.
And boldly going where no probe has gone before. Cassini captures some never-before-seen images of Saturn. We'll beam them up, later here on LIVE FROM...
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PHILLIPS: A defiant defendant, Saddam Hussein proves his contempt for the court today in Iraq. The former dictator of Iraq questioned preliminary charges that include the gassing of Kurds and the invasion of Kuwait. But the real question is, can Saddam get a fair trial.
Some insight now from criminal defense attorney Frank Rubino, who - he's in Miami. You'll remember, he represented many people in high- profile cases, including defending General Manuel Noriega.
Frank, thanks for being with us.
FRANK RUBINO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good afternoon.
PHILLIPS: Well, I have a feeling I know what you're going to say to this. Do you think Saddam's going to get a fair trial in Iraq?
RUBINO: Well, I'm more concerned, is he going to get the perception of a fair trial, even if he does get one, which I sincerely doubt he will.
PHILLIPS: I'm sorry, go ahead.
RUBINO: The deck is so clearly stacked against him, how can any judge say that I can put aside all my personal feelings and judge this case solely on the evidence that's put before me?
PHILLIPS: Well, I would assume that when you have to go forward and defend someone like this, it's going to be a tremendous challenge to humanize Saddam Hussein. Because, as a defense attorney, you're going to want to get people to feel sorry for him, right?
RUBINO: Oh, obviously. You're going to have to convince this jury that he doesn't have horns and a tail and is not a direct descendant of Satan. You're going to have to let this jury see that he does have some human side, some human characteristics, that they can relate to .
PHILLIPS: Were you able to humanize Manuel Noriega?
RUBINO: Not very well, to be very candid with you. At the time when General Noriega came to the United States, he was a strong military leader, he had strong feelings and he didn't trust our system and remained very rigid, to be very candid with you, throughout his trial.
PHILLIPS: Well, you're looking at Saddam Hussein, there you go, another military leader, and also very defiant. How would you go about trying to humanize this man? How would you go about trying to defend him? And also the issue of plausible deniability, showing that hey, he didn't really know what was going on.
RUBINO: A very hard task, because as we saw him today, he sort of bordered on a little bit of belligerent today. And what I would be concerned about if I were his lawyer, is he going to run the defense team, or attempt to do so? Also, your question, plausible deniability - the real question is, how far up the ladder does knowledge go? And he's obviously going to be claiming that I am so high up the ladder that I had no idea what people below me were doing.
PHILLIPS: Frank, why didn't he have lawyers there? Or why was he not allowed to have lawyers there? That was a bit confusing.
RUBINO: I was shocked to see that. The Iraqis want to put on a good face. They want to show they're giving him every right that he's entitled to under international law, and then he shows up at a hearing with no attorney by his side. On two or three occasions, he asked for an attorney, and the judge says we'll get you one later.
They should never have brought him in the door of the courtroom without a lawyer by his side.
PHILLIPS: What about the psychological state? This a man who still thinks he's the president of Iraq. You looked at all the mannerisms, from the sentences kind of tapering off, and he was sweating, and he kept fumbling with his words. Is that going to play a part here? How do you go about dealing with the psychological side, here?
RUBINO: It's going to play a part, but it's going to play a part, in my opinion, to his downfall. He was - actually, as I say, bordering on belligerent. I am the president. I am the leader. How dare you do this to me - instead of just accepting the fact that he is in this position and doing the best he can to extricate himself from it, he's going head to head with it.
PHILLIPS: Thirty tons of evidence. Where the heck do you start as a defense attorney?
RUBINO: Well, I understand there's 20 lawyers on the case, and it's going to take that many to even just begin to look through the evidence to get some vague idea of what the prosecution will be about. It's a monumental task.
PHILLIPS: Would you defend him?
RUBINO: Absolutely not.
PHILLIPS: Why not?
RUBINO: Because I think this goes beyond a criminal defense. I think this person is - I think he's an evil person. Even though I'm a lawyer, I have personal opinion. And I don't take every case that comes through my door. I take cases that I honestly believe in, cases that I think people's rights need to be protected.
This is not the man that I would ever want to represent.
PHILLIPS: So you don't think Manuel Noriega was an evil person?
RUBINO: Well, I think he was a long way from Saddam Hussein. If Manuel Noriega did everything the government said he did, he allowed some laundered drug money to go through a few banks. That's a long way from genocide, gassing people and just generally destroying the quality of life for people.
PHILLIPS: Frank, special Iraqi tribunal, is this the way to go? Or should it be a U.N. tribunal?
RUBINO: It should be the world court at the Hague. Clearly, this case is too big, too important. It goes out so far beyond just things that occurred in Iraq. It goes into genocide. It goes into the invasion of Kuwait. It goes into numerous areas. And, again, we have the perception of fairness.
Five Iraqi judges - every one of those judges were the victim in some way, shape or form of the defendant, Saddam Hussein. Now they're going to say, I can put all this aside, be fair and impartial. Impossible.
The world court at the Hague was designed for this. That's the purpose of it. That's where it belongs.
PHILLIPS: As this goes forward, Frank Rubino, I look forward to talking to you again.
RUBINO: Thank you. My pleasure being here
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Frank.
In Boston, a group of graduate students is debating the details, and what the long-anticipated transfer of power in Iraq really means. CNN's Boston bureau chief, Dan Lothian, listens in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): On the seventh floor at Tufts University's Fletcher School, Professor Kathleen Hamill, has been leading 17 graduate students, some of them aspiring diplomats, in a case study on Iraq.
KATHLEEN HAMILL, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: It's a great case study, because there are so unknowns.
LOTHIAN: After watching a video clip of Monday's surprise handover, students begin dissecting the details, focusing on whether the transition has any meaning. Amid some cynicism ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has changed is that the blue portfolio was handed from Bremer to the other guy.
LOTHIAN: There are deeper debates about human rights, about continued U.S. and coalition military control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that nullify the whole resolution?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't nullify the whole resolution.
LOTHIAN: About who controls the money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The vast amount of money is controlled by the U.S.
LOTHIAN: At this table, an argument in support of the U.S. and coalition's role, and the transfer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having a legitimate government, and having sovereignty, again, I think is absolutely critical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Transfer of power here (ph) is largely symbolic.
LOTHIAN (on-camera): Even though these graduate students are far removed from the official process, they are nonetheless asking some of the same questions and debating some of the same issues as U.S., coalition and Iraqi officials, and having some of the same frustrations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's sort of difficult, because it's open- ended, right? We don't yet know what's going to come out of it.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): But most agree, an important first step has been taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a new beginning, and maybe we can move away from the ...
LOTHIAN: A foreign policy debate in the classroom, and beyond.
HAMILL: These are students that hopefully someday will be in a position to make decisions like that.
LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN Boston.
PHILLIPS: A plot to kill the president becomes a controversial plot for a new novel. Is it a case of free speech gone too far?
(MARKET UPDATE)
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WHITFIELD: Time for some news across America now. Operation Port Shield gets underway, and new homeland security rules take effect at the nation's ports today. They include tighter surveillance and posting of security guards on ships.
The U.S. Coast Guard says it expects only a few ships will be denied entry into ports today because of the new regulations.
In Alaska, massive fire. Hundreds of people are fleeing a wildfire northeast of Fairbanks after it doubled in size overnight. So far, about 117,000 acres have been scorched.
And in Washington, the Tractor Man gets a break. A judge yesterday reduced the sentence of North Carolina tobacco farmer Dwight Watson from six years to 16 months. As you may recall, Watson drove his tractor into the National Mall last month and claimed to have bombs. Forty-seven hours later, he surrendered. Federal prosecutors are considering whether to appeal the judge's latest decision.
A lot of red arrows on Wall Street today, one day after the Federal Reserve raised interest rates. Stocks are selling off. Mary Snow is watching all the action live from the New York Stock Exchange, and, Mary, what's triggering investors to sell?
(MARKET UPDATE)
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