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Saddam Hussein Appears in Iraqi Court; Ringside View of Saturn

Aired July 01, 2004 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM. Miles O'Brien is on assignment.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what is happening this hour.

Reaction to Saddam Hussein's defiant court appearance. Several people who claim to represent him say the former Iraqi leader should have been allowed to have a lawyer present. Well, the White House is brushing aside Saddam's accusation that the real criminal is President Bush. We'll have more just ahead.

It's official now. Former Missouri Senator John Danforth is United States representative to the United Nations. Within the past half-hour, the former senator from Missouri was sworn in at the White House. He replaces John Negroponte, the newly appointed ambassador to Baghdad.

An Islamic center in Fairfax, Virginia, is being raided by federal authorities. A government official says the FBI, IRS and Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement are collecting evidence from the Institute of Islamic and Arabic sciences in America. No word yet on why. We'll keep you updated as more details become available.

Rendezvous with the lord of the rings. The Cassini space probe is sending back incredible new pictures of Saturn's rings. The unmanned craft entered orbit around Saturn yesterday, bringing cheers at NASA. We'll get a live report from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena with Miles O'Brien, of course, this hour.

WHITFIELD: After years of trampling on the rule of law in Iraq, Saddam Hussein invoked constitutional rights at his first court appearance in Baghdad today. The ousted leader was unrepentant as a young Iraqi judge read preliminary charges against him, dating all the way back to 1974. He also asserted he's still Iraq's president.

With the latest now, CNN's Jane Arraf in Baghdad -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Fredricka, you're absolutely right.

Unrepentant was perhaps the least of it. Now, this was a man who clearly believed that he was still back in his Iraq because he described himself as still the current president of Iraq and corrected the judge when he described him as otherwise.

Now, one of the main things was that Iraqis got to see a picture of this man, the first image they've seen in more than eight months. Now, it was a cleaner, trimmer Saddam Hussein than that image of the man pulled out of a hiding place in December. But still, here was somebody who appeared bowed, although still defiant and clearly at the end of the day just a man.

Now, we spoke to the current president, Ghazi al-Yawar, who has taken over as president of the interim government to this newly sovereign Iraq, just days old. And he said that this trial was an important step for getting the government back on its feet and healing its wounds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GHAZI AL-YAWAR, IRAQI INTERIM PRESIDENT: It means that a very dark era has been gone forever. This man is going to be tried. All Iraqis can listen and hear and understand that he will be tried according to the law. There will be no political aspect to his trial. It will be a fair trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: Now, a lot of Iraqis would say just dispense with the trial, just mete out the punishment. And for punishment, they do want to impose the death penalty again and say that that is the only punishment that he would merit.

Now, Saddam wasn't the only one appearing; 11 of his closest associates also stood before a judge to hear charges against them. They included faces very familiar to the West. Tariq Aziz, his former deputy prime minister, his composure a bit shaken, apparently, but he got up and told the judge that he can't answer for crimes that the government committed. He's being accused of the deaths of several people. He said that was the responsibility of the government and he is an individual.

Chemical Ali, Ali Hassan al-Majid, named Chemical Ali by many because of his alleged attacks on the Kurds, chemical attacks that killed tens of thousands, leveled entire villages, he said that none of the charges against him were true, the accusations were false, but apparently said as he was leaving the court that he expected it to be much worse -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And, Jane, did you get a sense from Tariq Aziz or Chemical Ali as to whether they were in control about their presence in the court?

ARRAF: From the images, certainly, they were putting on a brave face. But when you look at Saddam Hussein, he is clearly someone who is a bit disoriented, someone who does not understand that this is a new country, someone still describing himself as the current president and really challenging the authority of that court to try him.

Now, you have to remember that this is a man who wouldn't have had a lot of information about the outside world, about the outside of Iraq, or very select bits of information given to him over the last eight months. And, clearly, it is going to take some time for him to get used to this -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jane Arraf from Baghdad, thanks very much.

PHILLIPS: Many Iraqis were glued to their chairs watching the arraignment on satellite TV. The Arab news network Al-Jazeera got a sampling of opinions as Iraqis geared up for a war crimes trials. Some are in favor of putting Saddam through the courts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Actually, the trial of Saddam Hussein is very, very necessary because of the crimes he committed during 35 years. Those crimes included wars, destruction of Iraq's economy and standing in the way of our people's progress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): First, from a legal standpoint, I think the trial will be a legal and fair one. As for legitimacy, our current government is legitimate. Resolution 1546, approved by the United Nations and the international community gave legitimacy to this governor. So, unlike Saddam's era, this time, the trial will be fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Saddam Hussein is also still finding plenty of support on the streets of Iraq, even some nostalgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The stability, stability is not there since Saddam was toppled. Since he was toppled, it's chaos and disorder. There is no security. There is no stability. No one can sleep at their house who is feeling safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What do you think about the trial?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I don't think this is a fair trial. It is not legal. This is not legitimate. This is not legal. America brought them. They are all puppets for America. There is no just judge. This is to serve the interests of America. They are destroying this country. They talk about democracy. Is this democracy, what we saw? Ask Iraqis, ask people in Basra, Kirkuk, Mosul, is what they're seeing democracy? No. This is dictatorship and oppression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The U.S. is shrugging off Saddam Hussein's assertion that President Bush is -- quote -- "the real criminal." The White House says Mr. Bush watched a replay of the arraignment on television.

Speaking in New Orleans today, Vice President Dick Cheney praised Iraq's transformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As I was on my way to the museum today, I couldn't help but think of my last visit here on April 9, 2003. That was the same day the Saddam Hussein's statue came down in Baghdad.

(APPLAUSE)

CHENEY: Today, 15 months later, Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court, where he will face the justice he denied to millions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: To learn more about what Hussein might expect as his case moves through the Iraqi legal process, we turn once again to former Judge Stephen Orlofsky, who recently traveled to Iraq as a member of a judicial assessment team. He was with us yesterday.

Good to see you again, Steve.

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, MEMBER OF IRAQ JUDICIAL ASSESSMENT TEAM: Thank you for having me back.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about the fact there were no lawyers in the courtroom with Saddam Hussein.

I just got this statement in from Saddam Hussein's lawyer, Curtis Doebbler, Saddam's American lawyer. And this is a bit of a paraphrase, but he says: The appearance highlights the fact that the former Iraqi president is continuing to be denied his right to legal counsel, that the court hearings will not be fair, that the court is neither impartial, nor independent. All of these deficiencies violate long-established principles of international human rights law.

What's your response to that? Should Saddam have had a lawyer?

ORLOFSKY:: Well, under the Iraqi Special Tribunal Statute, which is the statute which created the court before which he appeared, he is entitled to have counsel with him at all critical stages of a criminal prosecution, which would include the arraignment.

I don't know the reason why he did not have counsel present. So it is very unusual not to have counsel present at such a proceeding.

PHILLIPS: OK, so Saddam could have made the choice, I don't want a lawyer? He could have made the choice?

ORLOFSKY:: I believe he could have. I was a little surprised to hear that this morning. And there may have been some security concerns or perhaps Saddam himself elected to go forward without having his attorney present.

PHILLIPS: OK, now, let's talk from the perspective -- you're a former judge. Let's talk about the judge in this case, almost 40 years old, very young, but he appeared to be very confident. Would you have conducted this arraignment like the judge did today? A couple of different questions here. Would you have let Saddam leave that courtroom without signing the minutes? Would you have let Saddam talk as much as he did? Would you have let Saddam cut you off, point his finger at you? I'm curious how you thought the judge handled this what you would have done.

ORLOFSKY:: Well, it is not unusual for defendants who appear without counsel, particularly someone like Saddam, to behave in that fashion.

The fact that he refused to acknowledge the court doesn't come as a surprise to me. I would have given him an opportunity to do it, but I wouldn't have pressed it. Since he was appearing without counsel, I probably would have been a little more indulgent and let him talk more than I would if he had counsel present. In fact, if he had counsel present, he would only be speaking through his counsel, so the same kind of issues wouldn't occur.

But when you have a pro se unrepresented defendant, it is not unusual for the judge to be a little more lenient with respect to how the defendant expresses himself.

PHILLIPS: OK, now, Steve, you went over there to help get the Iraqi judicial system up and running. You saw how chaotic it was in the courtroom and the resources. So let's talk about an Iraqi special tribunal vs. a U.N. tribunal. Do you think that a special Iraqi tribunal, that there will be enough resources, that these five individuals that will be on the tribunal will be able to handle it, something as big as this case?

ORLOFSKY:: Yes, I do. And let me tell you why.

Iraq has a long and scholarly legal tradition, goes back as much as 3,000 years to the Code of Hammurabi. The Iraqi Special Tribunal Statute provides that both the court and the prosecution can have advisers from the U.N. and from the international legal community to assist them in preparing the case and trying the case.

And I think that, with that kind of backup and with those kinds of resources available to the Iraqis, that they're certainly capable of trying and prosecuting this case.

PHILLIPS: Unfortunately, we've got to wrap it up and go. But I'm just curious, yes or no, would you just love to be the judge in this case? I'm curious.

ORLOFSKY:: I think it would be very interesting. I would welcome the challenge.

PHILLIPS: Steve ORLOFSKY:, former judge and prosecutor, thank you so much for your time again today.

ORLOFSKY:: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Well, you can get more on today's events any time with our expanded online coverage, view profiles of key prisoners, including Saddam Hussein and much more. Just log on to CNN.com. WHITFIELD: Well, some of the day's other news straight ahead. Surgery teams take new steps before operating. And the new rules should ease your mind about going under the knife.

PHILLIPS: And a boy gets tangled up in the wrong web during the first showing of "Spider-Man 2." We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In medical news, before you go to the O.R., surgeons must now double-check to make sure they have got the right patient and the right parts. New guidelines to prevent surgical mistakes go into effect today.

CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're in the pre-op holding area here at Emory Crawford Long Hospital. The topic today, surgical mistakes.

There are about 70 million operations performed yearly in the United States. And one-tenth of one percent of those, according to government figures, result in a surgical mistake.

Today -- starting today, a national campaign underway to try and cut that number down. Here's the problem, and here's how it might be solved.

(voice-over): Willie King had the wrong foot amputated, leaving him with no feet.

Linda McDougal had a double mastectomy, only to find out her biopsy results were switched with another patient. Linda never had breast cancer in the first place.

They are among the thousands of patients who have suffered from medical mistakes in the operating room. And starting today, hospitals are adopting procedures aimed at reducing the numbers. It's as simple as a checklist, the same kind pilots have used for years.

Mary Haun is getting a total knee replacement at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.

MARY HAUN, PATIENT: I was going to put an arrow down there, and then I wanted to write wrong knee. They said I can't do that.

GUPTA: Mary marked her knee with her doctor's initials the night before surgery.

According to new federal rules, the doctor, not just the nurse, must now check with the patient to confirm the type of surgery and the surgery's site.

DR. JAMES RICHERSON, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: I put my initials on just below where you marked it.

GUPTA: Then a nurse makes sure again they have the right patient.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First off, can you tell me your name?

HAUN: Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

GUPTA: And the right procedure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Haun, what are you having done today?

HAUN: Right knee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

GUPTA: Then, before the surgeons make the first cut, a time-out is taken, where the whole staff verifies a third time that they have everything right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that the right knee you have prepped?

RICHERSON: Yes.

GUPTA: Surgical checklists are not new, but a national standard is. And doctors are optimistic that it will help bring medical errors down.

RICHERSON: I love it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't practice without it. It's very reassuring to me to be able to glance down at the patient's extremity and see initials there that confirm that I'm doing the correct thing and not the wrong thing.

GUPTA: Still, doctors realize that medicine, a very human profession, will always be vulnerable to mistakes.

RICHERSON: There are a lot of steps in this process. And there are a lot of humans involved. There's always room for human error.

GUPTA: If you're a patient in the hospital and waiting for an operation, expect these questions from the hospital staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should expect it and if you don't find it occurring, you should stop everybody and ask why not.

GUPTA: For Mary, the new O. R. checklist and her own involvement in her care gives her peace of mind.

HAUN: You feel a little more in control of the situation. Because you lay there thinking, Oh, I hope they get the right knee. But this way, if it's marked, it's going to be right.

GUPTA (on camera): Well, here at the Emory Hospital system, the procedures you just saw have already been in effect for some time, since 2002, in fact.

For other hospitals around the country, you can expect to see these regulations go into force today. If hospitals do not abide, they're at risk of losing their accreditation. So some real teeth behind this.

Patients at home can expect to see these questions every time they visit the hospital from now on.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, checking entertainment headlines this Thursday, more details emerging on upcoming nuptials for a budding Liz Taylor, or you called call her J.Lo, too, of her generation. Britney Spears says she popped the question herself, but Kevin Federline turned her down so that he could do the asking himself.

By the way, the groom's pregnant girlfriend says she doesn't blame Britney for what's happening, clearly not the Debbie Reynolds of her generation.

Well, speaking of jilted, Joan and Melissa Rivers have left E! to sign with the TV Guide Channel. The tart-tongued terrors of Tinseltown togs will reportedly expand their sphere of influence beyond the red carpet. You have been warned.

And a warning to video pirates. A 16-year-old got busted in L.A. with a camcorder in hand at the premier of "Spider-Man 2." A clever projectionist nabbed the teen by using a pair of night-vision goggles to scan the audience. Legal action is pending -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, one-of-a-kind pictures from an out-of-this world trip. The Cassini spacecraft is beaming back incredible images of Saturn's rings. It's a mission some 20 years in the making.

And for 20 years, our Miles O'Brien has been on it. He's at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. He started when he was 2.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much, Kyra. It sort of seems like I've been out here for 20 years. I miss you, Kyra. I'll be coming back soon.

But, in the meantime, let's talk about Saturn, shall we, the faraway place of Saturn, where the Cassini spacecraft has quite literally a ringside seat right now, having performed a perilous thread-the-needle operation to go through those rings twice, the team here erupting in joy because they truly have spent 20 years on this thing. And can you imagine it all coming down to 90 minutes of a rocket firing and one marble-sized rock could completely ruin your day? Now, Cassini got right to work after seven years in space, 2.2 billion miles on the odometer, started acting like an excited tourist snapping pictures of those rings.

Let's take a look at some of the highlights, as they've been fed down. We have gotten about 60 images back so far, picture-postcards, if you will, from Saturn, black and white. They haven't had time to really massage these and add color like they normally do. But, nevertheless, if you're a scientist, this is music to your eyes.

And what's most interesting to them is those distinct gaps between the rings. The question is, what causes them? Is there some kind of a celestial Zamboni out there clearing out space or is there perhaps a moon or two that has escaped the attention of astronomers heretofore? Chances are, there are some moons in that ring that we haven't seen. And we're going to see them over the next four years, as Cassini undergoes a very ambitious scientific campaign.

The moons themselves of Saturn may in fact be the most interesting thing. Kyra, in January, I know you have got it marked on your calendar, the Titan probe -- excuse, me a probe called Huygens is headed down to the surface of Titan. It's a moon of Saturn. It's about the side of a planet and has an atmosphere that scientists think mimics the early Earth, like Earth as a toddler. It could be sort of a distant mirror to our own origins -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You're the center of my origin, Miles. Hurry up and come back, all right?

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: See you soon.

PHILLIPS: All right.

That wraps up this edition of LIVE FROM.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired July 1, 2004 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM. Miles O'Brien is on assignment.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what is happening this hour.

Reaction to Saddam Hussein's defiant court appearance. Several people who claim to represent him say the former Iraqi leader should have been allowed to have a lawyer present. Well, the White House is brushing aside Saddam's accusation that the real criminal is President Bush. We'll have more just ahead.

It's official now. Former Missouri Senator John Danforth is United States representative to the United Nations. Within the past half-hour, the former senator from Missouri was sworn in at the White House. He replaces John Negroponte, the newly appointed ambassador to Baghdad.

An Islamic center in Fairfax, Virginia, is being raided by federal authorities. A government official says the FBI, IRS and Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement are collecting evidence from the Institute of Islamic and Arabic sciences in America. No word yet on why. We'll keep you updated as more details become available.

Rendezvous with the lord of the rings. The Cassini space probe is sending back incredible new pictures of Saturn's rings. The unmanned craft entered orbit around Saturn yesterday, bringing cheers at NASA. We'll get a live report from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena with Miles O'Brien, of course, this hour.

WHITFIELD: After years of trampling on the rule of law in Iraq, Saddam Hussein invoked constitutional rights at his first court appearance in Baghdad today. The ousted leader was unrepentant as a young Iraqi judge read preliminary charges against him, dating all the way back to 1974. He also asserted he's still Iraq's president.

With the latest now, CNN's Jane Arraf in Baghdad -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Fredricka, you're absolutely right.

Unrepentant was perhaps the least of it. Now, this was a man who clearly believed that he was still back in his Iraq because he described himself as still the current president of Iraq and corrected the judge when he described him as otherwise.

Now, one of the main things was that Iraqis got to see a picture of this man, the first image they've seen in more than eight months. Now, it was a cleaner, trimmer Saddam Hussein than that image of the man pulled out of a hiding place in December. But still, here was somebody who appeared bowed, although still defiant and clearly at the end of the day just a man.

Now, we spoke to the current president, Ghazi al-Yawar, who has taken over as president of the interim government to this newly sovereign Iraq, just days old. And he said that this trial was an important step for getting the government back on its feet and healing its wounds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GHAZI AL-YAWAR, IRAQI INTERIM PRESIDENT: It means that a very dark era has been gone forever. This man is going to be tried. All Iraqis can listen and hear and understand that he will be tried according to the law. There will be no political aspect to his trial. It will be a fair trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: Now, a lot of Iraqis would say just dispense with the trial, just mete out the punishment. And for punishment, they do want to impose the death penalty again and say that that is the only punishment that he would merit.

Now, Saddam wasn't the only one appearing; 11 of his closest associates also stood before a judge to hear charges against them. They included faces very familiar to the West. Tariq Aziz, his former deputy prime minister, his composure a bit shaken, apparently, but he got up and told the judge that he can't answer for crimes that the government committed. He's being accused of the deaths of several people. He said that was the responsibility of the government and he is an individual.

Chemical Ali, Ali Hassan al-Majid, named Chemical Ali by many because of his alleged attacks on the Kurds, chemical attacks that killed tens of thousands, leveled entire villages, he said that none of the charges against him were true, the accusations were false, but apparently said as he was leaving the court that he expected it to be much worse -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And, Jane, did you get a sense from Tariq Aziz or Chemical Ali as to whether they were in control about their presence in the court?

ARRAF: From the images, certainly, they were putting on a brave face. But when you look at Saddam Hussein, he is clearly someone who is a bit disoriented, someone who does not understand that this is a new country, someone still describing himself as the current president and really challenging the authority of that court to try him.

Now, you have to remember that this is a man who wouldn't have had a lot of information about the outside world, about the outside of Iraq, or very select bits of information given to him over the last eight months. And, clearly, it is going to take some time for him to get used to this -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jane Arraf from Baghdad, thanks very much.

PHILLIPS: Many Iraqis were glued to their chairs watching the arraignment on satellite TV. The Arab news network Al-Jazeera got a sampling of opinions as Iraqis geared up for a war crimes trials. Some are in favor of putting Saddam through the courts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Actually, the trial of Saddam Hussein is very, very necessary because of the crimes he committed during 35 years. Those crimes included wars, destruction of Iraq's economy and standing in the way of our people's progress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): First, from a legal standpoint, I think the trial will be a legal and fair one. As for legitimacy, our current government is legitimate. Resolution 1546, approved by the United Nations and the international community gave legitimacy to this governor. So, unlike Saddam's era, this time, the trial will be fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Saddam Hussein is also still finding plenty of support on the streets of Iraq, even some nostalgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The stability, stability is not there since Saddam was toppled. Since he was toppled, it's chaos and disorder. There is no security. There is no stability. No one can sleep at their house who is feeling safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What do you think about the trial?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I don't think this is a fair trial. It is not legal. This is not legitimate. This is not legal. America brought them. They are all puppets for America. There is no just judge. This is to serve the interests of America. They are destroying this country. They talk about democracy. Is this democracy, what we saw? Ask Iraqis, ask people in Basra, Kirkuk, Mosul, is what they're seeing democracy? No. This is dictatorship and oppression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The U.S. is shrugging off Saddam Hussein's assertion that President Bush is -- quote -- "the real criminal." The White House says Mr. Bush watched a replay of the arraignment on television.

Speaking in New Orleans today, Vice President Dick Cheney praised Iraq's transformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As I was on my way to the museum today, I couldn't help but think of my last visit here on April 9, 2003. That was the same day the Saddam Hussein's statue came down in Baghdad.

(APPLAUSE)

CHENEY: Today, 15 months later, Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court, where he will face the justice he denied to millions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: To learn more about what Hussein might expect as his case moves through the Iraqi legal process, we turn once again to former Judge Stephen Orlofsky, who recently traveled to Iraq as a member of a judicial assessment team. He was with us yesterday.

Good to see you again, Steve.

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, MEMBER OF IRAQ JUDICIAL ASSESSMENT TEAM: Thank you for having me back.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about the fact there were no lawyers in the courtroom with Saddam Hussein.

I just got this statement in from Saddam Hussein's lawyer, Curtis Doebbler, Saddam's American lawyer. And this is a bit of a paraphrase, but he says: The appearance highlights the fact that the former Iraqi president is continuing to be denied his right to legal counsel, that the court hearings will not be fair, that the court is neither impartial, nor independent. All of these deficiencies violate long-established principles of international human rights law.

What's your response to that? Should Saddam have had a lawyer?

ORLOFSKY:: Well, under the Iraqi Special Tribunal Statute, which is the statute which created the court before which he appeared, he is entitled to have counsel with him at all critical stages of a criminal prosecution, which would include the arraignment.

I don't know the reason why he did not have counsel present. So it is very unusual not to have counsel present at such a proceeding.

PHILLIPS: OK, so Saddam could have made the choice, I don't want a lawyer? He could have made the choice?

ORLOFSKY:: I believe he could have. I was a little surprised to hear that this morning. And there may have been some security concerns or perhaps Saddam himself elected to go forward without having his attorney present.

PHILLIPS: OK, now, let's talk from the perspective -- you're a former judge. Let's talk about the judge in this case, almost 40 years old, very young, but he appeared to be very confident. Would you have conducted this arraignment like the judge did today? A couple of different questions here. Would you have let Saddam leave that courtroom without signing the minutes? Would you have let Saddam talk as much as he did? Would you have let Saddam cut you off, point his finger at you? I'm curious how you thought the judge handled this what you would have done.

ORLOFSKY:: Well, it is not unusual for defendants who appear without counsel, particularly someone like Saddam, to behave in that fashion.

The fact that he refused to acknowledge the court doesn't come as a surprise to me. I would have given him an opportunity to do it, but I wouldn't have pressed it. Since he was appearing without counsel, I probably would have been a little more indulgent and let him talk more than I would if he had counsel present. In fact, if he had counsel present, he would only be speaking through his counsel, so the same kind of issues wouldn't occur.

But when you have a pro se unrepresented defendant, it is not unusual for the judge to be a little more lenient with respect to how the defendant expresses himself.

PHILLIPS: OK, now, Steve, you went over there to help get the Iraqi judicial system up and running. You saw how chaotic it was in the courtroom and the resources. So let's talk about an Iraqi special tribunal vs. a U.N. tribunal. Do you think that a special Iraqi tribunal, that there will be enough resources, that these five individuals that will be on the tribunal will be able to handle it, something as big as this case?

ORLOFSKY:: Yes, I do. And let me tell you why.

Iraq has a long and scholarly legal tradition, goes back as much as 3,000 years to the Code of Hammurabi. The Iraqi Special Tribunal Statute provides that both the court and the prosecution can have advisers from the U.N. and from the international legal community to assist them in preparing the case and trying the case.

And I think that, with that kind of backup and with those kinds of resources available to the Iraqis, that they're certainly capable of trying and prosecuting this case.

PHILLIPS: Unfortunately, we've got to wrap it up and go. But I'm just curious, yes or no, would you just love to be the judge in this case? I'm curious.

ORLOFSKY:: I think it would be very interesting. I would welcome the challenge.

PHILLIPS: Steve ORLOFSKY:, former judge and prosecutor, thank you so much for your time again today.

ORLOFSKY:: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Well, you can get more on today's events any time with our expanded online coverage, view profiles of key prisoners, including Saddam Hussein and much more. Just log on to CNN.com. WHITFIELD: Well, some of the day's other news straight ahead. Surgery teams take new steps before operating. And the new rules should ease your mind about going under the knife.

PHILLIPS: And a boy gets tangled up in the wrong web during the first showing of "Spider-Man 2." We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In medical news, before you go to the O.R., surgeons must now double-check to make sure they have got the right patient and the right parts. New guidelines to prevent surgical mistakes go into effect today.

CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're in the pre-op holding area here at Emory Crawford Long Hospital. The topic today, surgical mistakes.

There are about 70 million operations performed yearly in the United States. And one-tenth of one percent of those, according to government figures, result in a surgical mistake.

Today -- starting today, a national campaign underway to try and cut that number down. Here's the problem, and here's how it might be solved.

(voice-over): Willie King had the wrong foot amputated, leaving him with no feet.

Linda McDougal had a double mastectomy, only to find out her biopsy results were switched with another patient. Linda never had breast cancer in the first place.

They are among the thousands of patients who have suffered from medical mistakes in the operating room. And starting today, hospitals are adopting procedures aimed at reducing the numbers. It's as simple as a checklist, the same kind pilots have used for years.

Mary Haun is getting a total knee replacement at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.

MARY HAUN, PATIENT: I was going to put an arrow down there, and then I wanted to write wrong knee. They said I can't do that.

GUPTA: Mary marked her knee with her doctor's initials the night before surgery.

According to new federal rules, the doctor, not just the nurse, must now check with the patient to confirm the type of surgery and the surgery's site.

DR. JAMES RICHERSON, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: I put my initials on just below where you marked it.

GUPTA: Then a nurse makes sure again they have the right patient.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First off, can you tell me your name?

HAUN: Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

GUPTA: And the right procedure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Haun, what are you having done today?

HAUN: Right knee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

GUPTA: Then, before the surgeons make the first cut, a time-out is taken, where the whole staff verifies a third time that they have everything right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that the right knee you have prepped?

RICHERSON: Yes.

GUPTA: Surgical checklists are not new, but a national standard is. And doctors are optimistic that it will help bring medical errors down.

RICHERSON: I love it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't practice without it. It's very reassuring to me to be able to glance down at the patient's extremity and see initials there that confirm that I'm doing the correct thing and not the wrong thing.

GUPTA: Still, doctors realize that medicine, a very human profession, will always be vulnerable to mistakes.

RICHERSON: There are a lot of steps in this process. And there are a lot of humans involved. There's always room for human error.

GUPTA: If you're a patient in the hospital and waiting for an operation, expect these questions from the hospital staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should expect it and if you don't find it occurring, you should stop everybody and ask why not.

GUPTA: For Mary, the new O. R. checklist and her own involvement in her care gives her peace of mind.

HAUN: You feel a little more in control of the situation. Because you lay there thinking, Oh, I hope they get the right knee. But this way, if it's marked, it's going to be right.

GUPTA (on camera): Well, here at the Emory Hospital system, the procedures you just saw have already been in effect for some time, since 2002, in fact.

For other hospitals around the country, you can expect to see these regulations go into force today. If hospitals do not abide, they're at risk of losing their accreditation. So some real teeth behind this.

Patients at home can expect to see these questions every time they visit the hospital from now on.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, checking entertainment headlines this Thursday, more details emerging on upcoming nuptials for a budding Liz Taylor, or you called call her J.Lo, too, of her generation. Britney Spears says she popped the question herself, but Kevin Federline turned her down so that he could do the asking himself.

By the way, the groom's pregnant girlfriend says she doesn't blame Britney for what's happening, clearly not the Debbie Reynolds of her generation.

Well, speaking of jilted, Joan and Melissa Rivers have left E! to sign with the TV Guide Channel. The tart-tongued terrors of Tinseltown togs will reportedly expand their sphere of influence beyond the red carpet. You have been warned.

And a warning to video pirates. A 16-year-old got busted in L.A. with a camcorder in hand at the premier of "Spider-Man 2." A clever projectionist nabbed the teen by using a pair of night-vision goggles to scan the audience. Legal action is pending -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, one-of-a-kind pictures from an out-of-this world trip. The Cassini spacecraft is beaming back incredible images of Saturn's rings. It's a mission some 20 years in the making.

And for 20 years, our Miles O'Brien has been on it. He's at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. He started when he was 2.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much, Kyra. It sort of seems like I've been out here for 20 years. I miss you, Kyra. I'll be coming back soon.

But, in the meantime, let's talk about Saturn, shall we, the faraway place of Saturn, where the Cassini spacecraft has quite literally a ringside seat right now, having performed a perilous thread-the-needle operation to go through those rings twice, the team here erupting in joy because they truly have spent 20 years on this thing. And can you imagine it all coming down to 90 minutes of a rocket firing and one marble-sized rock could completely ruin your day? Now, Cassini got right to work after seven years in space, 2.2 billion miles on the odometer, started acting like an excited tourist snapping pictures of those rings.

Let's take a look at some of the highlights, as they've been fed down. We have gotten about 60 images back so far, picture-postcards, if you will, from Saturn, black and white. They haven't had time to really massage these and add color like they normally do. But, nevertheless, if you're a scientist, this is music to your eyes.

And what's most interesting to them is those distinct gaps between the rings. The question is, what causes them? Is there some kind of a celestial Zamboni out there clearing out space or is there perhaps a moon or two that has escaped the attention of astronomers heretofore? Chances are, there are some moons in that ring that we haven't seen. And we're going to see them over the next four years, as Cassini undergoes a very ambitious scientific campaign.

The moons themselves of Saturn may in fact be the most interesting thing. Kyra, in January, I know you have got it marked on your calendar, the Titan probe -- excuse, me a probe called Huygens is headed down to the surface of Titan. It's a moon of Saturn. It's about the side of a planet and has an atmosphere that scientists think mimics the early Earth, like Earth as a toddler. It could be sort of a distant mirror to our own origins -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You're the center of my origin, Miles. Hurry up and come back, all right?

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: See you soon.

PHILLIPS: All right.

That wraps up this edition of LIVE FROM.

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