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Brother of Wassef Hassoun Speaks to Media
Aired July 09, 2004 - 14:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As Marine Corporal Wassef al Hassoun is in the hands of U.S. authorities, we listen to his brother Mohamad.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
MOHAMAD HASSOUN, BROTHER OF FORMER MARINE CAPTIVE: And you are also aware of the sad and disturbing events that took the life of two individuals in Tripoli, Lebanon yesterday.
Unfortunately we feel that we are being attacked on two fronts. I call on President Bush and Prime Minister Hariri to take the necessary steps to provide support and security our extended Hassoun family. Our intent is to -- our intent is to prevent any further bloodshed and we do not want our loyalty and nationalism questioned during these difficult times.
I also call on the Muslim clerics in Lebanon to provide spiritual support, not to add fuel to the fire. Now here is the Arabic version.
PHILLIPS: All right. You just heard from Mohamad Hassoun, the brother of Corporal Wassef Hassoun, as you know, who is now going to face questioning from U.S. authorities.
The question still out there. Was he captured? Did he desert the military? Was his capture by extremists all made up? It's still a mystery of what exactly has happened to this Marine.
His brother Mohamad now coming forward in their home town of Utah asking that they not be, as he said, attacked on two fronts, spiritually or their family. That he wants the truth to be able to come out -- OK -- after talking to his brother. I'm being told he's going to take questions now.
HASSOUN: I believe he is just arriving to Germany, as we speak.
QUESTION: Is he doing OK or how is he?
HASSOUN: From what I have been told from my family member, he is doing OK physically. But mentally still have, you know, need some to recoup.
QUESTION: Is your family allowed to accompany him to Germany?
HASSOUN: I believe my brother and cousin will be joining him in Germany Monday or Tuesday, yes.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) would help us understand why it is not a hoax and how this happened and how he got to Lebanon?
HASSOUN: At this time I do not know.
QUESTION: Obviously this has been a tremendously difficult 19 days for you. First he disappears, than you think he's dead, then this happens. And now there's the rumor -- the stories about the possible hoax. Just how strange and difficult have the last 19 days been.
HASSOUN: They have been very strange and very difficult. And it's been an emotional roller coaster, to say the least.
QUESTION: Mohamad, is it (OFF-MIKE) perhaps of the unique circumstances, the background of the family and the backlash against Americans? Is that fair to say that it's even perhaps more difficult for you all?
HASSOUN: Yes, it has been. It is.
QUESTION: Your family and the rival clans. What is your direct message to them?
HASSOUN: My direct message to them is to stop any further bloodshed and to have mediation and to resolve the conflicts.
QUESTION: Mohamad, have you heard anything else that has happened in Tripoli since yesterday? Has anything else happened there?
HASSOUN: Nothing has happened. But I know that there are some tensions, yes. And we urge the Lebanese security, I guess, officials to make sure that no -- any further bloodshed.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) ... as well. Do you have the sense that the Lebanese government is not on your side in this circumstance?
HASSOUN: We believe and we hope that they are on our side. But we just want them to make sure to ensure all the different government offices in Lebanon, they are doing all they can to make sure that we have the support that we need and to prevent any further bloodshed.
QUESTION: Have you gotten any assurances from the U.S. government that you will have access to your brother?
HASSOUN: I have received assurances, yes. Once he arrives to Germany, he's going to call me, yes.
QUESTION: Do you know whether or not Wassef is in custody? Is he just being held by the Marines or the military?
HASSOUN: We have not been informed of such a thing. We know that he's going to Germany for medical evaluation and debriefing. That's all we know.
QUESTION: You don't know whether or not he's handcuffed, whether he's in a jail-type situation? HASSOUN: I don't believe he's handcuffed or in jail, no.
QUESTION: Does he have a lawyer? Have you got a lawyer for him?
HASSOUN: We do not need a lawyer. We haven't done anything wrong that we would need a lawyer for.
QUESTION: Can you tell us, from your experience with your brother, your knowledge of your brother, how you feel about these discussions of the possibility of a hoax? How does that fit with your knowledge of your brother?
HASSOUN: With my knowledge of my brother, I do not believe that is a possibility, no.
QUESTION: Why is that?
HASSOUN: Because of the type of person he is.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) you describe that to us a little bit more?
HASSOUN: My description of him would be a U.S. Marine.
QUESTION: Mohamad, how could he have gotten from Iraq to Lebanon?
HASSOUN: I have no idea. Thank you. No more questions. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Mohamad Hassoun being very careful with his words there in a quick exchange with reporters outside their home in West Jordan, Utah. He is the brother of Marine Corporal Wassef Hassoun.
As you know, that Marine, once missing is, back on base now at an American military base in Germany. He's going through a medical examination, also a debrief. You'll remember Hassoun was last seen last month on a videotape, purportedly that he had been captured and was being threatened by extremists. That, as you know, is now being questioned. Was it a hoax? Was he -- did he go AWOL?
His brother coming forward saying he does not believe that his brother would do that, that his brother is a U.S. Marine, plain and simple. We're continuing to follow the investigation, as military investigators plan to question Hassoun about his appearance -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And now the scathing congressional indictment of America's rationale for going to war against Iraq. A report says the case against Iraq was fundamentally flawed because the intelligence community in the U.S. overstated the threat that Iraq posed. The report is likely to resonate far beyond U.S. borders, of course.
CNN's Sean Callebs is standing by in Washington with more on the sobering details -- hello, Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Indeed, the bottom line, key U.S. assertions about Saddam Hussein's government and its capability of unleashing weapons of mass destruction were overstated or simply wrong. That's the conclusion of a Senate committee report about the prewar intelligence gathered by the United States.
Allegations that Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons, that he had biological weapons, and that unless the U.S.-led coalition attacked, Iraq would develop nuclear weapons as well, the committee unanimously said, we now know all that information was not accurate. Most of the blame falls on the CIA and outgoing Director George Tenet, but not all of the criticism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: This groupthink also extended to our allies and to the United Nations and several other nations as well, all of whom did believe that Saddam Hussein had active WMD programs. This was a global intelligence failure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Meanwhile, congressional members found that the U.S. intelligence community suffered from a groupthink mentality, and it was this groupthink that led analysts to simply presume Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
The committee found shortcomings in almost every intelligence- gathering efforts. Most alarmingly, it said, after U.N. inspectors left Iraq in 1998, there was no human intelligence working in Iraq. Well, the man who, as of Sunday, will be the acting director of the CIA is taking issue with that characterization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CIA: If it's intended to convey a timidity on the part of our officers in terms of working in dangerous environments, I would just reject that totally out of hand. I mean, we put stars on the wall out here this year. We put stars on the wall out here this year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: He says those stars on the wall are there to memorialize agents who have died in the line of duty.
The Democratic vice chair of the committee says the problems detailed in the committee report are deep-rooted. Senator Rockefeller says events over the past year and a half will haunt the United States in the future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Tragically, the intelligence failures set forth in this report will affect our national security for generations to come. Our credibility is diminished. Our standing in the world has never been lower. We have fostered a deep hatred of Americans in the Muslim world. And that will grow. As a direct consequence, our nation is more vulnerable today than ever before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: The report also suggests there was a failure for the U.S. to challenge assumptions, consider other arguments and keep an open mind. Some Democrats contend the Bush administration twisted findings to support the war against Saddam Hussein. However, that was not included in the committee findings. Much of the criticism focused on the CIA and its outgoing director, George Tenet. Tenet resigned. And, Miles, he officially leaves office this coming Sunday.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Sean Callebs from Washington, thank you -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, is the insurgency in Iraq deeper than the U.S. thought it was? The Associated Press quotes unidentified U.S. military sources as putting the number of armed guerrillas up to 20,000, primarily disaffected Sunnis, and not foreign fighters, as some had suggested.
Joining us now to talk more about the insurgency is CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson.
Ken, we had talked about this prior. Now this is coming out. It's exactly what you thought, a bit of the Sunni surprise.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, the Sunnis are disenfranchised. The Sunnis are out of work. At the end of the war when Baghdad fell, and by the end of the war, I mean the phase three, with the fall of the regime. The army was disbanded. And they believe that that caused a huge influx of people who could be recruited to continue to fight.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about how this could have been prevented. Was it a strategic mistake -- it sounds like that's what you're saying -- to have disbanded the Iraqi army, instead of just giving them responsibility?
ROBINSON: One of the -- while I was embedded with the military during the war, one of the debates that I heard by senior general officers was the pros and cons of maintaining the -- not the Republican Guard and not the special security organizations, but maintaining regular army units.
But a decision was made politically that there would be a de- Baathification of those forces. And so, instead of being able to turn some of those forces and be able to put them back on the streets to help deal with the issues that involved looting, they were lost and went back into the population. And much of what has been attributed to the rise of an insurgency that could have been dealt with potentially has been looked at that decision as being a potential first cause.
PHILLIPS: Therefore, now, you've said a number of generals have been horrified. Why?
ROBINSON: General officers that we spoke with at the time of the de-Baathification process were thinking back to Germany, thinking back to Japan, historically, recognizing that there was going to be lawlessness once the collapse of the central government of Baghdad and were students of history and were trying to fight for a different position.
Politically, though, the decision was made that there would -- there should be de-Baathification. And the assumption was that anyone who was in the army was tainted with that. And so, politically, under Ambassador Bremer, the decision was made that they would disband the military.
PHILLIPS: All right, well, let's talk about fixing the problem now. Is it too late? Obviously, when it comes to the insurgency, there is no giving an extremist a role. But with the Sunnis, can you do something now? Can military planners get in there strategically and improve the situation from that standpoint?
ROBINSON: Well, they have been doing that. And they've been trying to do that for some time. There's been money appropriated, over $1 billion, to stand up approximately 22 battalions of infantry and train them. The issue is has always been, who are they fighting for?
And that's why the United States government moved as quickly as possible to changing their status, so that the -- there would be an American ambassador, instead of an occupying power, and that the status of forces agreements could be renegotiated so that we no longer had the same role, so that we could get quickly Iraqi dealing with Iraqi, because they're very effective with their own human intelligence, which we lack a lot of.
And they're very effective at knowing who's not from there regionally and locally, because all terrorism is local. And the local people in the street block by block know who's not from their area, by dialect, by tribe.
PHILLIPS: And, of course, the point is to get the Iraqis in charge of Iraq once again. CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson -- thanks, Ken.
ROBINSON: Thank you, Kyra.
O'BRIEN: Well, if you missed it last night, don't worry. We have a part of Larry King's interview with presidential hopeful John Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry coming up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: All right, "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS" is coming up very shortly. And it is Friday. Did you know that, Kyra, Friday? And you know what Friday means. That means the always popular "Political Play of the Week" is moments away with our friend Bill Schneider.
Well, you can think of this next segment as poor man's TiVo. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry and his wife, Teresa, were on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. And if you missed it, here it is again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
LARRY KING, HOST: Are you also Catholic?
TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF SENATOR JOHN KERRY: Yes, absolutely. Nuns, convents, from five to 18.
KING: OK, what part does your faith play in your governance?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It guides you. It's your rock. It's the bedrock of your sense of place, of where it all fits.
KING: Are you given Communion?
KERRY: Absolutely.
KING: But there were some bishops who would deny that to you.
KERRY: Well, there are some bishops who have spoken out, but they -- but that's not the position of the Church, and as you know, we have a separation in America of Church and state. My obligation as a Catholic is to examine my conscience, under the freedom of conscience under Vatican II, Pope John XXIII, and Pope Paul, and I do that.
And -- but as President Kennedy said, when confronted with this same question, said, you know, I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic, not a Catholic president.
KING: Is abortion a great moral issue to you?
KERRY: Sure it is. Absolutely. And I think it's far more complicated than public life allows the discussion for. I mean, being for choice does not mean you are for abortion. Neither Teresa nor I are for abortion. Abortion should be rare, but safe and legal, as President Clinton said so often, and I think appropriately.
I think that it's really a question of who should make this decision, and how do arrive at it. But there is morality. Of course there's morality involved. And we should be talking to people in America about responsibility, about adoption, about other choices. And I want to have a better conversation than I think we've had on it. But it doesn't change my position on who chooses. And I will protect that right of choice.
KING: How will you ask senator -- President Clinton to be involved?
Senator Clinton, too.
KERRY: I'll ask them both to be involved. They're both...
KING: Do you want President Clinton to go on the
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: Absolutely. They are both very, very talented...
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: ...party and he already has.
KING: Well, I mean, if he wanted to go sweeping the country.
KERRY: He will. And there are places the president will go to, he's already committed to do events. Look, Larry, one American would not trade the economy we had in the 1990s, the fact that we were not at war and young Americans were not deployed. When we did go to war, we won it in Kosovo quickly and decisively and appropriately.
What American would not trade the economy, the unemployment rate and the movement in the right direction that we had under President Clinton?
We balanced the budget, we paid down the debt for two years, we created 23 million new jobs, and I want the president to go out and remind America that we can do better than we are doing today. These people are the pessimists, because they are satisfied with the status quo. John Edwards and I believe America can break new frontiers of science. We believe we can take care of children and fund education. We believe we can have health care that's affordable for all Americans. But we're going to be honest with the American people. You can't do those things and have a great, big giant tax cut for the wealthiest people in the nation.
KING: Teresa, do you think his book will have an effect on the campaign, the Clinton book?
HEINZ KERRY: I haven't read it yet. It's so long, and I haven't got the time right now. But I think it's a very personal tale. It's about his life, and...
KING: What effect do you think it might or might not have on a campaign.
HEINZ KERRY: I just don't know how many people out there are going to read it. I think the people that will buy it to read it already know what they think, and they're already interested in either just them or politics. The other people, I don't know. He's a very charming man.
KERRY: She's smart, isn't she?
HEINZ KERRY: But it's true. I don't know.
KERRY: She's right.
KING: There's a -- politicians never use that answer: I don't know.
KERRY: Yes, we do.
KING: You do?
KERRY: Oh, yes. 7
KING: You have said in your life, publicly, I don't know.
KERRY: I have said it in the last months.
KING: Have you ever said, I was wrong?
KERRY: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: An excerpt of "Larry King" last night. Meanwhile, Kerry and his vice presidential pick, John Edwards, are campaigning in West Virginia and New Mexico today.
Back with a little more LIVE FROM in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(FINANCIAL UPDATE)
O'BRIEN: That wraps up this edition of LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 9, 2004 - 14:57 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As Marine Corporal Wassef al Hassoun is in the hands of U.S. authorities, we listen to his brother Mohamad.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
MOHAMAD HASSOUN, BROTHER OF FORMER MARINE CAPTIVE: And you are also aware of the sad and disturbing events that took the life of two individuals in Tripoli, Lebanon yesterday.
Unfortunately we feel that we are being attacked on two fronts. I call on President Bush and Prime Minister Hariri to take the necessary steps to provide support and security our extended Hassoun family. Our intent is to -- our intent is to prevent any further bloodshed and we do not want our loyalty and nationalism questioned during these difficult times.
I also call on the Muslim clerics in Lebanon to provide spiritual support, not to add fuel to the fire. Now here is the Arabic version.
PHILLIPS: All right. You just heard from Mohamad Hassoun, the brother of Corporal Wassef Hassoun, as you know, who is now going to face questioning from U.S. authorities.
The question still out there. Was he captured? Did he desert the military? Was his capture by extremists all made up? It's still a mystery of what exactly has happened to this Marine.
His brother Mohamad now coming forward in their home town of Utah asking that they not be, as he said, attacked on two fronts, spiritually or their family. That he wants the truth to be able to come out -- OK -- after talking to his brother. I'm being told he's going to take questions now.
HASSOUN: I believe he is just arriving to Germany, as we speak.
QUESTION: Is he doing OK or how is he?
HASSOUN: From what I have been told from my family member, he is doing OK physically. But mentally still have, you know, need some to recoup.
QUESTION: Is your family allowed to accompany him to Germany?
HASSOUN: I believe my brother and cousin will be joining him in Germany Monday or Tuesday, yes.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) would help us understand why it is not a hoax and how this happened and how he got to Lebanon?
HASSOUN: At this time I do not know.
QUESTION: Obviously this has been a tremendously difficult 19 days for you. First he disappears, than you think he's dead, then this happens. And now there's the rumor -- the stories about the possible hoax. Just how strange and difficult have the last 19 days been.
HASSOUN: They have been very strange and very difficult. And it's been an emotional roller coaster, to say the least.
QUESTION: Mohamad, is it (OFF-MIKE) perhaps of the unique circumstances, the background of the family and the backlash against Americans? Is that fair to say that it's even perhaps more difficult for you all?
HASSOUN: Yes, it has been. It is.
QUESTION: Your family and the rival clans. What is your direct message to them?
HASSOUN: My direct message to them is to stop any further bloodshed and to have mediation and to resolve the conflicts.
QUESTION: Mohamad, have you heard anything else that has happened in Tripoli since yesterday? Has anything else happened there?
HASSOUN: Nothing has happened. But I know that there are some tensions, yes. And we urge the Lebanese security, I guess, officials to make sure that no -- any further bloodshed.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) ... as well. Do you have the sense that the Lebanese government is not on your side in this circumstance?
HASSOUN: We believe and we hope that they are on our side. But we just want them to make sure to ensure all the different government offices in Lebanon, they are doing all they can to make sure that we have the support that we need and to prevent any further bloodshed.
QUESTION: Have you gotten any assurances from the U.S. government that you will have access to your brother?
HASSOUN: I have received assurances, yes. Once he arrives to Germany, he's going to call me, yes.
QUESTION: Do you know whether or not Wassef is in custody? Is he just being held by the Marines or the military?
HASSOUN: We have not been informed of such a thing. We know that he's going to Germany for medical evaluation and debriefing. That's all we know.
QUESTION: You don't know whether or not he's handcuffed, whether he's in a jail-type situation? HASSOUN: I don't believe he's handcuffed or in jail, no.
QUESTION: Does he have a lawyer? Have you got a lawyer for him?
HASSOUN: We do not need a lawyer. We haven't done anything wrong that we would need a lawyer for.
QUESTION: Can you tell us, from your experience with your brother, your knowledge of your brother, how you feel about these discussions of the possibility of a hoax? How does that fit with your knowledge of your brother?
HASSOUN: With my knowledge of my brother, I do not believe that is a possibility, no.
QUESTION: Why is that?
HASSOUN: Because of the type of person he is.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) you describe that to us a little bit more?
HASSOUN: My description of him would be a U.S. Marine.
QUESTION: Mohamad, how could he have gotten from Iraq to Lebanon?
HASSOUN: I have no idea. Thank you. No more questions. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Mohamad Hassoun being very careful with his words there in a quick exchange with reporters outside their home in West Jordan, Utah. He is the brother of Marine Corporal Wassef Hassoun.
As you know, that Marine, once missing is, back on base now at an American military base in Germany. He's going through a medical examination, also a debrief. You'll remember Hassoun was last seen last month on a videotape, purportedly that he had been captured and was being threatened by extremists. That, as you know, is now being questioned. Was it a hoax? Was he -- did he go AWOL?
His brother coming forward saying he does not believe that his brother would do that, that his brother is a U.S. Marine, plain and simple. We're continuing to follow the investigation, as military investigators plan to question Hassoun about his appearance -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And now the scathing congressional indictment of America's rationale for going to war against Iraq. A report says the case against Iraq was fundamentally flawed because the intelligence community in the U.S. overstated the threat that Iraq posed. The report is likely to resonate far beyond U.S. borders, of course.
CNN's Sean Callebs is standing by in Washington with more on the sobering details -- hello, Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Indeed, the bottom line, key U.S. assertions about Saddam Hussein's government and its capability of unleashing weapons of mass destruction were overstated or simply wrong. That's the conclusion of a Senate committee report about the prewar intelligence gathered by the United States.
Allegations that Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons, that he had biological weapons, and that unless the U.S.-led coalition attacked, Iraq would develop nuclear weapons as well, the committee unanimously said, we now know all that information was not accurate. Most of the blame falls on the CIA and outgoing Director George Tenet, but not all of the criticism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: This groupthink also extended to our allies and to the United Nations and several other nations as well, all of whom did believe that Saddam Hussein had active WMD programs. This was a global intelligence failure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Meanwhile, congressional members found that the U.S. intelligence community suffered from a groupthink mentality, and it was this groupthink that led analysts to simply presume Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
The committee found shortcomings in almost every intelligence- gathering efforts. Most alarmingly, it said, after U.N. inspectors left Iraq in 1998, there was no human intelligence working in Iraq. Well, the man who, as of Sunday, will be the acting director of the CIA is taking issue with that characterization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CIA: If it's intended to convey a timidity on the part of our officers in terms of working in dangerous environments, I would just reject that totally out of hand. I mean, we put stars on the wall out here this year. We put stars on the wall out here this year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: He says those stars on the wall are there to memorialize agents who have died in the line of duty.
The Democratic vice chair of the committee says the problems detailed in the committee report are deep-rooted. Senator Rockefeller says events over the past year and a half will haunt the United States in the future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Tragically, the intelligence failures set forth in this report will affect our national security for generations to come. Our credibility is diminished. Our standing in the world has never been lower. We have fostered a deep hatred of Americans in the Muslim world. And that will grow. As a direct consequence, our nation is more vulnerable today than ever before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: The report also suggests there was a failure for the U.S. to challenge assumptions, consider other arguments and keep an open mind. Some Democrats contend the Bush administration twisted findings to support the war against Saddam Hussein. However, that was not included in the committee findings. Much of the criticism focused on the CIA and its outgoing director, George Tenet. Tenet resigned. And, Miles, he officially leaves office this coming Sunday.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Sean Callebs from Washington, thank you -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, is the insurgency in Iraq deeper than the U.S. thought it was? The Associated Press quotes unidentified U.S. military sources as putting the number of armed guerrillas up to 20,000, primarily disaffected Sunnis, and not foreign fighters, as some had suggested.
Joining us now to talk more about the insurgency is CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson.
Ken, we had talked about this prior. Now this is coming out. It's exactly what you thought, a bit of the Sunni surprise.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, the Sunnis are disenfranchised. The Sunnis are out of work. At the end of the war when Baghdad fell, and by the end of the war, I mean the phase three, with the fall of the regime. The army was disbanded. And they believe that that caused a huge influx of people who could be recruited to continue to fight.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about how this could have been prevented. Was it a strategic mistake -- it sounds like that's what you're saying -- to have disbanded the Iraqi army, instead of just giving them responsibility?
ROBINSON: One of the -- while I was embedded with the military during the war, one of the debates that I heard by senior general officers was the pros and cons of maintaining the -- not the Republican Guard and not the special security organizations, but maintaining regular army units.
But a decision was made politically that there would be a de- Baathification of those forces. And so, instead of being able to turn some of those forces and be able to put them back on the streets to help deal with the issues that involved looting, they were lost and went back into the population. And much of what has been attributed to the rise of an insurgency that could have been dealt with potentially has been looked at that decision as being a potential first cause.
PHILLIPS: Therefore, now, you've said a number of generals have been horrified. Why?
ROBINSON: General officers that we spoke with at the time of the de-Baathification process were thinking back to Germany, thinking back to Japan, historically, recognizing that there was going to be lawlessness once the collapse of the central government of Baghdad and were students of history and were trying to fight for a different position.
Politically, though, the decision was made that there would -- there should be de-Baathification. And the assumption was that anyone who was in the army was tainted with that. And so, politically, under Ambassador Bremer, the decision was made that they would disband the military.
PHILLIPS: All right, well, let's talk about fixing the problem now. Is it too late? Obviously, when it comes to the insurgency, there is no giving an extremist a role. But with the Sunnis, can you do something now? Can military planners get in there strategically and improve the situation from that standpoint?
ROBINSON: Well, they have been doing that. And they've been trying to do that for some time. There's been money appropriated, over $1 billion, to stand up approximately 22 battalions of infantry and train them. The issue is has always been, who are they fighting for?
And that's why the United States government moved as quickly as possible to changing their status, so that the -- there would be an American ambassador, instead of an occupying power, and that the status of forces agreements could be renegotiated so that we no longer had the same role, so that we could get quickly Iraqi dealing with Iraqi, because they're very effective with their own human intelligence, which we lack a lot of.
And they're very effective at knowing who's not from there regionally and locally, because all terrorism is local. And the local people in the street block by block know who's not from their area, by dialect, by tribe.
PHILLIPS: And, of course, the point is to get the Iraqis in charge of Iraq once again. CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson -- thanks, Ken.
ROBINSON: Thank you, Kyra.
O'BRIEN: Well, if you missed it last night, don't worry. We have a part of Larry King's interview with presidential hopeful John Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry coming up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: All right, "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS" is coming up very shortly. And it is Friday. Did you know that, Kyra, Friday? And you know what Friday means. That means the always popular "Political Play of the Week" is moments away with our friend Bill Schneider.
Well, you can think of this next segment as poor man's TiVo. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry and his wife, Teresa, were on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. And if you missed it, here it is again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
LARRY KING, HOST: Are you also Catholic?
TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF SENATOR JOHN KERRY: Yes, absolutely. Nuns, convents, from five to 18.
KING: OK, what part does your faith play in your governance?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It guides you. It's your rock. It's the bedrock of your sense of place, of where it all fits.
KING: Are you given Communion?
KERRY: Absolutely.
KING: But there were some bishops who would deny that to you.
KERRY: Well, there are some bishops who have spoken out, but they -- but that's not the position of the Church, and as you know, we have a separation in America of Church and state. My obligation as a Catholic is to examine my conscience, under the freedom of conscience under Vatican II, Pope John XXIII, and Pope Paul, and I do that.
And -- but as President Kennedy said, when confronted with this same question, said, you know, I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic, not a Catholic president.
KING: Is abortion a great moral issue to you?
KERRY: Sure it is. Absolutely. And I think it's far more complicated than public life allows the discussion for. I mean, being for choice does not mean you are for abortion. Neither Teresa nor I are for abortion. Abortion should be rare, but safe and legal, as President Clinton said so often, and I think appropriately.
I think that it's really a question of who should make this decision, and how do arrive at it. But there is morality. Of course there's morality involved. And we should be talking to people in America about responsibility, about adoption, about other choices. And I want to have a better conversation than I think we've had on it. But it doesn't change my position on who chooses. And I will protect that right of choice.
KING: How will you ask senator -- President Clinton to be involved?
Senator Clinton, too.
KERRY: I'll ask them both to be involved. They're both...
KING: Do you want President Clinton to go on the
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: Absolutely. They are both very, very talented...
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: ...party and he already has.
KING: Well, I mean, if he wanted to go sweeping the country.
KERRY: He will. And there are places the president will go to, he's already committed to do events. Look, Larry, one American would not trade the economy we had in the 1990s, the fact that we were not at war and young Americans were not deployed. When we did go to war, we won it in Kosovo quickly and decisively and appropriately.
What American would not trade the economy, the unemployment rate and the movement in the right direction that we had under President Clinton?
We balanced the budget, we paid down the debt for two years, we created 23 million new jobs, and I want the president to go out and remind America that we can do better than we are doing today. These people are the pessimists, because they are satisfied with the status quo. John Edwards and I believe America can break new frontiers of science. We believe we can take care of children and fund education. We believe we can have health care that's affordable for all Americans. But we're going to be honest with the American people. You can't do those things and have a great, big giant tax cut for the wealthiest people in the nation.
KING: Teresa, do you think his book will have an effect on the campaign, the Clinton book?
HEINZ KERRY: I haven't read it yet. It's so long, and I haven't got the time right now. But I think it's a very personal tale. It's about his life, and...
KING: What effect do you think it might or might not have on a campaign.
HEINZ KERRY: I just don't know how many people out there are going to read it. I think the people that will buy it to read it already know what they think, and they're already interested in either just them or politics. The other people, I don't know. He's a very charming man.
KERRY: She's smart, isn't she?
HEINZ KERRY: But it's true. I don't know.
KERRY: She's right.
KING: There's a -- politicians never use that answer: I don't know.
KERRY: Yes, we do.
KING: You do?
KERRY: Oh, yes. 7
KING: You have said in your life, publicly, I don't know.
KERRY: I have said it in the last months.
KING: Have you ever said, I was wrong?
KERRY: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: An excerpt of "Larry King" last night. Meanwhile, Kerry and his vice presidential pick, John Edwards, are campaigning in West Virginia and New Mexico today.
Back with a little more LIVE FROM in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(FINANCIAL UPDATE)
O'BRIEN: That wraps up this edition of LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips.
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