Return to Transcripts main page
Live From...
Protestors Voice Concern About Tight Security for DNC; Were Sandy Berger Charges Politically Driven?; First Astronauts on Moon Share Views on Future of NASA.
Aired July 21, 2004 - 14:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's what's going on now in the news. An Arab television network reports militants in Iraq are threatening to behead six new hostages from India, Kenya, and Egypt. Masked figures on a videotape demand that the three countries and the captives' Kuwaiti employer all withdraw their personnel from Iraq.
German researchers say anthrax has been killing African apes in Ivory Coast tropical rain forests, something that's never been seen before. The scientists warn the outbreak could endanger humans because illegal poaching and eating bush meat are common there.
The Justice Department says three federal agencies are joining raiding a bulletproof vest manufacturer in Lexington, Kentucky. The FBI is not involved. The Commerce Department is, however. And a justice spokesman says that typically happens when a company doesn't have a proper licenses.
Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: The Democratic National Convention gets underway next Monday. It will be under unprecedented security. After all, it's the first political convention since the events of 9/11.
And federal, state and local officials are working overtime to keep a tight lid on the FleetCenter, where thousands of people assemble.
Some gripe that the security is so tight it's interfering with their First Amendment right to protect. WCBP reporter Anthony Everitt on the protest over protesting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTHONY EVERITT, WCBP CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the view demonstrators will have of the FleetCenter, across Causeway Street, behind chain link fencing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you put people in a confined area where there's not enough room for them and you put horses in there, and you surround it by an eight-foot fence, that's a recipe for disaster.
EVERITT: The Black Tea Society, a group of anarchists and others opposed to the DNC coming to Boston and opposed to the two-party system, has a permit for a march but not down Causeway Street, right in front of the Fleet. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marching is marching. You walk down the street. I don't -- I can't imagine how someone would be while marching doing any kind of civil disobedience unless they've got a new kind of funky step that I've never heard of.
EVERITT: Protesters will be here in a holding air under the elevated T-tracks and gated in by eight-foot high fencing and netting to prevent them from throwing anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you wind up with very small exits. The same way in a movie theater, you can wind up with a stampede. It's not a safe situation.
EVERITT: A group called ANSWER, Act Now to Stop War and End Racism, has gone to court hoping for better access. They want to publicize their anti-war position and say forcing them to stop short of the FleetCenter violates their constitutional rights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to declare today that we will either get our justice in the courts or we will get our justice in the streets.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, former Clinton administration official Sandy Berger says that he's stepping down from his unpaid role as an advisor to presidential candidate John Kerry.
Berger is under investigation, as you know, for removing top- secret material from the National Archives.
The probe has been going on for at least nine months. Some Democrats have questioned why it has become public now. The White House said it had nothing to do with the information coming out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: (AUDIO GAP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: That's Press Secretary Scott McClellan there at the White House. We'll try and rerack and get that sound on behalf of the Bush administration in just a minute.
But here to look at what impact this will have on the Kerry camp in Washington, Democratic strategist and political consultant, Julian Epstein, and CNN contributor and former Republican congressman, Bob Barr, here in Atlanta.
Bob, you are calling for an aggressive criminal investigation. Why?
BOB BARR, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: Well, first of all, one wonders, I agree, why didn't the administration move before this? These are events that happened months and months ago, late last year, and we're just now finding out about it.
To me, if, in fact, the government has the proof that they seem to have, that Mr. Berger did in fact, take documents from a secured area, documents that he was not entitled to, that he was not supposed to have with him, take them home or wherever, then they ought to prosecute.
And they need to either fish or cut bait. If they just sort of keep this thing hanging around, then it does raise very serious questions about political motivation.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the political motivation here, Julian. Talk about the timing. Talk about the fact that this information evidently was known back in October.
Why now? Why is this coming forward? And is there a need for an aggressive investigation?
JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, the easy answer is politics. On Thursday, tomorrow, the 9/11 Commission report is going to be released and it's going to have some pretty devastating findings in terms of the administration's responsibility with regards to 9/11.
I think this was clearly political. These were -- look at some basic facts. These were duplicate documents. These were documents to which Sandy Berger had been given access to previously.
The 9/11 Commission stated pretty clearly that it didn't have any impact on its findings whatsoever. This is, in the larger context of things, a very de minimus violation, given that he's the former national security advisor.
If Republicans were serious about this kind of thing you would hear them hooting and hollering a great deal more about the outing of Joe Wilson's wife, which was a criminal violation, in all likelihood, and also about the provision by the administration of false information relating to Iraqi weapons of mass -- weapons of mass destruction, for which, providing false information to the Congress, there are also a number of statutes, as Mr. Barr allows -- as Mr. Barr knows.
So I think this is clearly political.
PHILLIPS: All right. Julian is bringing up the commission, of course, outlining what we're supposed to see tomorrow.
Ten operational opportunities, we're told, missed by U.S. officials to detect or unravel the 9/11 plot. These are -- but the report finding that many of those opportunities were long shots. This is what is supposed to come out tomorrow, Bob.
So if, indeed, Sandy Berger took these documents specifically relating to what's going to come out tomorrow, what's the motivation here? Why would he do it? And what's the gain for him or the gain for anybody else in his party? BARR: Well, we don't really know. But what we do know, despite Julian's effort, I feel like I'm going through the impeachment again. Contextual. Everything is in context.
The fact of the matter is, and I would hope Julian would agree, that where you have documents that are classified documents, where you have documents that don't belong to an individual, whether it's one of one copy or one of a hundred copies, people should not be so cavalier about saying, well, somebody can just sort of take these because, after all, maybe it's just a duplicate.
It's very important for our government and any administration to protect national security secrets. And if there is, in fact, an addition to that, a motivation to keep documents from the commission, then that would be separate and apart and in addition to.
But the fact of the matter is, that these documents apparently were taken without permission. Mr. Berger of all people would know that. So very clearly at a minimum we have a very serious violation.
EPSTEIN: This was clearly...
BARR: We've got to protect the integrity of classified documents in the first place.
PHILLIPS: Talking about the documents, Julian, I mean there were these handwritten notes that he allegedly had taken.
EPSTEIN: Which he was allowed to take. This, again, this is silly. This is the former national security advisor of the United States, who had had access to these documents when he was a public official. They were duplicate copies that the commission had.
Mr. Barr can say all he wants about, you know, the strict legal interpretation of this. But the fact of the matter is, in the larger scheme of things, this is a very de minimus violation by all appearances.
And Mr. Barr in his answer evades talking about what's going to be in the 9/11 report. And what you'll see in the 9/11 report is clearly quite a contrast between the Clinton administrations and the Bush administration.
The Clinton administration had two warnings of major terrorist attacks. One the effort to blow up 12 airliners over the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and the second the millennium bombing. They took all the necessary steps to shake the trees, as the saying goes, and prevent the attacks from occurring.
Bush, by contrast, had numerous warnings about the 9/11 attack, had warnings by the FBI field officers, had warnings from his own national security advisor and basically did nothing.
This is -- this will essentially be the conclusion of the report. It's a report that Republicans have to distract attention from. And therefore, they'll go back to this kind of silly little thing about a national security advisor taking documents.
It was a foolish mistake. Documents he had already seen. And no prosecutor in their own mind would go after in a serious way, given the context of this thing.
And yes, context is important. If it wasn't, you would hear -- you again would hear Republicans talking about the other serious violations that have occurred under this administration's watch that you don't hear them talking very much about.
PHILLIPS: But if these documents that come out tomorrow with regard to this commission's investigation talk about missed opportunities on behalf of the Bush administration or on behalf of the Clinton administration. I mean, Bob, could we see a resurface here of a debate about 9/11? That it could have been prevented under the Clinton administration or that it could have been prevented under the Bush administration?
BARR: That is a legitimate debate, as long as it is a debate that has, as its goal, what can we do as a country, as an administration, whether it's the Kerry administration if he wins or the Bush administration, if he gets re-elected.
If, in fact, people of good faith like Julian I know is come together and say we're putting partisan politics aside. We're going to look at the substance of this report and take some steps to make sure that this doesn't happen again, hen that is a very legitimate debate.
But it ought not to be a debate about, well, more blame is here than blame is here and this -- this administration had these opportunities. Let's focus on the substance of it.
But with regard to Mr. Berger, he has a serious problem. And any administration ought to take very seriously somebody who takes documents to which he was not entitled to take, including highly classified documents.
PHILLIPS: All right, 10 seconds, Julian. We've got to wrap up. Creating a meaningless blame game? Or reforming intelligence?
EPSTEIN: To begin, I applaud Mr. -- Mr. Barr's sentiments. But generally the side that's going to lose a political debate says let's not politicize it. The fact is Republicans have politicized the war on terror. The record is now going to show not only major failings not only pre-9/11 but with Iraq.
And look, we have an election several months from now. And the question is going to be who can lead the country more safely in a difficult time, and who can manage the economy better? And these issues are going to be at the forefront of voters' minds. Right now the public doesn't seem to be approving the job that the president is doing. And that's the bottom line.
PHILLIPS: Julian Epstein, Bob Barr. Thanks, gentlemen.
EPSTEIN: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Tonight, Democratic vice presidential hopeful John Edwards and Elizabeth Edwards, they're going to be on CNN's "LARRY KIND LIVE." That's at 9 p.m. Eastern.
Be sure to stay with CNN. Starting Monday at 7 Eastern, we're going to have complete coverage of the Democratic National Convention, live from Boston.
O'BRIEN: Well it's amazing but true. Prince Charles hasn't done it in years, but he did remember to leave a tip. Whatever that's about. When we take you around the world.
And get to know the controversial artist behind what could be the most controversial 9/11 memorial thus far.
And no controversy at all, just a look back at the glory days. Three American heroes. Catch the best of my interview with the men of Apollo 11.
LIVE FROM has handed, mission control. After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: News around the world for you now. It begins with an emotional reunion in Abu Dhabi, where Filipino truck driver Angelo de la Cruz greeted his wife and brother. The former hostage freed yesterday when the Philippine government pulled the rest of its troops out of Iraq.
Taxicab confessions. Prince Charles took a spin around London Tuesday in one of Britain's famous black taxicabs. The heir to the throne admits he had been in a taxi only once before, when he was a little boy. The prince paid his $17 fare out of his pocket, apparently gave a tip. Hopefully he got a royal treatment.
Call it a case of reverse air rage. In passenger, a passenger on an air flight from Moscow to Siberia was beat up after he complained that the flight attendants were drunk. The crew has been temporarily dismissed, pending an investigation.
PHILLIPS: Now another story from Russia with a little more love. A sculptor in Moscow wants to create a 9/11 memorial on a New Jersey pier. Now if you've ever tried to get a big piece of artwork through U.S. Customs, you know it to be complicated. This project is encountering some red tape, also.
Here's Jill Dougherty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Artist, sculptor Zurab Tsereteli remembers exactly how he got the idea for his monument to the victims of September 11.
ZURAB TSERETELI, ARTIST (through translator): When the tragedy happened, I sat there and watched. It really affected me. I ran out in the street here in Moscow and saw people crying. And the idea was born.
DOUGHERTY: So Tsereteli, one of Russia's most famous and controversial artists, set to work designing his 9/11 project, a gift to America called Tear of Grief.
Jagged bronze columns, in real life nearly 10 stories high, holding a huge titanium teardrop. Water is pumped through it and cooled, creating smaller tears as if the monument is weeping.
He originally planned it for New York City, but when that didn't work out, he set his sights on Jersey City, New Jersey, a pier that juts out into the Hudson River just across from Ground Zero.
The city's mayor at the time gave his blessing, but then he died. The New Jersey City mayor, L. Harvey Smith, tells CNN he's not sure how the city ended up approving the monument. But nine out of ten residents don't want it.
L. HARVEY SMITH, MAYOR, JERSEY CITY: It's a tear. It's grief. And Jersey City has had enough grief in its history.
DOUGHERTY: The artist remains unfazed.
TSERETELI (through translator): There can be tears of happiness. If we unite against terrorism, there will be tears of joy.
DOUGHERTY: Tsereteli, head of the Russian Academy of Art, sculpts everything from political leaders to clowns and is no stranger to controversy. Moscow is full of his monumental works, which some critics call kitsch.
(on camera) This mammoth statue to Peter the Great was so unpopular one group even threatened to blow it up.
(voice-over) Zurab Tsereteli plans to unveil his 9/11 monument September 11 on Grundy Pier in Jersey City. The mayor says the city will accept the gift, but he's not saying where Jersey City will put it.
Jill Dougherty, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, they still look pretty good, and of course we love them. The heroes of Apollo 11: Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Mike Collins. We can't remember the last time they agreed to a joint interview, but today they did for me. The pinnacle of my space reporting career -- well sort of -- is ahead.
And what on earth is the former -- doing on the network currently known as CNN? Find out next.
And the world's hottest doughnut company cools off a little bit, at select locations only, of course. LIVE FROM shakes things up after this. It's always hot here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Can you keep a secret from my bosses? There are some days when I would do my job for free, it's so much fun.
Yesterday and today here in Washington, just such a time. I was here to mark the 35th anniversary of the first man landing on the moon.
The Apollo 11 team, Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin, met earlier today with President Bush at the White House. And shortly thereafter, I got the honor of talking to the men who had the whole world holding its collective breath 35 years ago.
Among the things we discussed, the future of the space program. Even as NASA's proposed 2005 budget suffered on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: This gradual evolutionary process, Neil Armstrong, is the approach right now of the Bush administration to NASA. Do you think that can work? It's a far cry what you experienced in the Apollo days.
NEIL ARMSTRONG, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: Yes it is; it is a different approach. And I don't know a lot about the details of the plan. I think that's going to evolve over the next couple of years, as this is discussed by NASA, and the other members of the technological community and put some flesh on the bones. And I think then we'll be in a much better position to judge what really makes sense.
O'BRIEN: On this 35th anniversary, though, I suppose it's nice to be having a conversation like this, which is forward thinking, as opposed to just once again regaling old tales.
MICHAEL COLLINS, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: It certainly is. Nice to be looking forward.
O'BRIEN: Michael Collins, as long as we're mentioning regaling old tales, this time 35 years ago you were alone in that command module. What are your recollections today? What memories come to the fore? And what are your thoughts about the accomplishment 35 years later?
COLLINS: Well, I was very happy in the command module by myself. I was sort of glad to get these guys out of my hair for a few hours, a day or two.
I -- no, I think the -- in my memory it's that things went as well as they did go on that particular flight and on Apollo flights in general. There were so many things that could go wrong, small things that could balloon into large tragedies. And we were very fortunate that none of those things overtook us, and that did surprise me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Mike Collins, the man who was in the command module orbiting as they were on the moon. You know, and Kyra, he wrote about it afterwards extensively, what it would have been like if things had gone wrong on the moon. Imagine what that trip back to Earth alone might have been like. It's a good thing it all went well 35 years ago.
PHILLIPS: Now, I know they tell a lot of things that a lot of us don't know. Any secrets you can reveal today? I saw you kind of hobnobbing there on the back hall.
O'BRIEN: Secrets about the astronauts? And stories?
PHILLIPS: Maybe things that happened on the moon that maybe we don't know about.
O'BRIEN: You're going to trap me into something I shouldn't say. That's a photograph of Buzz Aldrin, and I'm trying to nail it down. Just suffice it to say I'm working on it.
PHILLIPS: All right, Miles, see you in a little bit.
O'BRIEN: All right.
PHILLIPS: Well, clearing the confusion over food labeling. President Bush is expected to sign a bill passed by Congress yesterday that would require food labels to identify allergies in easy to read language. That could ease the minds of millions of Americans with food allergies.
Our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, takes a closer look at the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When 11-year-old Sam Gilman reaches for a snack, he knows what to do.
SAM GILMAN, FOOD ALLERGY SUFFERER: Basically, you have to read it from bottom to top and backwards, because that way you concentrate word for word.
GUPTA: And not miss even a trace amount of anything, because that could be deadly. You see, Sam has food allergies to peanuts, tree nuts, sesame and poppy seeds and shellfish.
GILMAN: I go into anaphylactic shock and worst-case scenario I could die.
GUPTA: Like others with life threatening allergies, Sam has lots of an antibody called IGE. If he is even remotely exposed to an allergen, chemicals are released in the body that cause a frightening reaction.
ANNE MUNOZ-FURLONG, FOOD ALLERGY & ANAPHYLANIS NET: Difficulty breathing, swelling of the lips, or the tongue, the throat. It can hit the gastrointestinal system with vomiting, cramping, diarrhea. You can have hives on your arms or all over the body.
In severe reactions, it can cause a drop in blood pressure, loss of consciousness and death.
GUPTA: Sam is not alone. According to the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine five years ago, five million Americans suffered from food allergies. Today the number exceeds 11 million. It's unclear why.
MUNOZ-FURLONG: One of the theories is that perhaps we've changed the way we live. Our homes are cleaner. Our immune system doesn't have anything to do. And for some people, it's developing allergies.
GUPTA: For those with food allergies, avoidance is currently the only option.
GILMAN: This is OK.
GUPTA: But avoiding allergens is not always easy. Sometimes it also involves learning a new language.
For example, lacto globulin and casen (ph) equal milk. Spelt and seitan (ph), that equals wheat.
ABDY GILMAN, SAM'S FATHER: Can you just tell me what is in the artichoke salad?
GUPTA: Like many people, Sam and his family first learned about his allergies when he almost died as an infant. Today they take no chances.
A. GILMAN: We've been lucky that we haven't had another incident like the first one, where we've had to -- But that doesn't mean you can relax your guard at any time.
GUPTA: Good advice, because although researchers are working on an immunization no cure exists as yet.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Hot doughnuts might not feel like the right treat on hot summer days, but how about a glazed doughnut drink?
Darby Mullany joins us live from the New York Stock Exchange.
(MARKET REPORT)
PHILLIPS: Well preparing for terror at the Athens Olympics, Greek troops training for the worst. U.S. Special Forces join security efforts. Will it be enough? We're on that story next on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 21, 2004 - 14:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's what's going on now in the news. An Arab television network reports militants in Iraq are threatening to behead six new hostages from India, Kenya, and Egypt. Masked figures on a videotape demand that the three countries and the captives' Kuwaiti employer all withdraw their personnel from Iraq.
German researchers say anthrax has been killing African apes in Ivory Coast tropical rain forests, something that's never been seen before. The scientists warn the outbreak could endanger humans because illegal poaching and eating bush meat are common there.
The Justice Department says three federal agencies are joining raiding a bulletproof vest manufacturer in Lexington, Kentucky. The FBI is not involved. The Commerce Department is, however. And a justice spokesman says that typically happens when a company doesn't have a proper licenses.
Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: The Democratic National Convention gets underway next Monday. It will be under unprecedented security. After all, it's the first political convention since the events of 9/11.
And federal, state and local officials are working overtime to keep a tight lid on the FleetCenter, where thousands of people assemble.
Some gripe that the security is so tight it's interfering with their First Amendment right to protect. WCBP reporter Anthony Everitt on the protest over protesting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTHONY EVERITT, WCBP CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the view demonstrators will have of the FleetCenter, across Causeway Street, behind chain link fencing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you put people in a confined area where there's not enough room for them and you put horses in there, and you surround it by an eight-foot fence, that's a recipe for disaster.
EVERITT: The Black Tea Society, a group of anarchists and others opposed to the DNC coming to Boston and opposed to the two-party system, has a permit for a march but not down Causeway Street, right in front of the Fleet. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marching is marching. You walk down the street. I don't -- I can't imagine how someone would be while marching doing any kind of civil disobedience unless they've got a new kind of funky step that I've never heard of.
EVERITT: Protesters will be here in a holding air under the elevated T-tracks and gated in by eight-foot high fencing and netting to prevent them from throwing anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you wind up with very small exits. The same way in a movie theater, you can wind up with a stampede. It's not a safe situation.
EVERITT: A group called ANSWER, Act Now to Stop War and End Racism, has gone to court hoping for better access. They want to publicize their anti-war position and say forcing them to stop short of the FleetCenter violates their constitutional rights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to declare today that we will either get our justice in the courts or we will get our justice in the streets.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, former Clinton administration official Sandy Berger says that he's stepping down from his unpaid role as an advisor to presidential candidate John Kerry.
Berger is under investigation, as you know, for removing top- secret material from the National Archives.
The probe has been going on for at least nine months. Some Democrats have questioned why it has become public now. The White House said it had nothing to do with the information coming out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: (AUDIO GAP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: That's Press Secretary Scott McClellan there at the White House. We'll try and rerack and get that sound on behalf of the Bush administration in just a minute.
But here to look at what impact this will have on the Kerry camp in Washington, Democratic strategist and political consultant, Julian Epstein, and CNN contributor and former Republican congressman, Bob Barr, here in Atlanta.
Bob, you are calling for an aggressive criminal investigation. Why?
BOB BARR, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: Well, first of all, one wonders, I agree, why didn't the administration move before this? These are events that happened months and months ago, late last year, and we're just now finding out about it.
To me, if, in fact, the government has the proof that they seem to have, that Mr. Berger did in fact, take documents from a secured area, documents that he was not entitled to, that he was not supposed to have with him, take them home or wherever, then they ought to prosecute.
And they need to either fish or cut bait. If they just sort of keep this thing hanging around, then it does raise very serious questions about political motivation.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the political motivation here, Julian. Talk about the timing. Talk about the fact that this information evidently was known back in October.
Why now? Why is this coming forward? And is there a need for an aggressive investigation?
JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, the easy answer is politics. On Thursday, tomorrow, the 9/11 Commission report is going to be released and it's going to have some pretty devastating findings in terms of the administration's responsibility with regards to 9/11.
I think this was clearly political. These were -- look at some basic facts. These were duplicate documents. These were documents to which Sandy Berger had been given access to previously.
The 9/11 Commission stated pretty clearly that it didn't have any impact on its findings whatsoever. This is, in the larger context of things, a very de minimus violation, given that he's the former national security advisor.
If Republicans were serious about this kind of thing you would hear them hooting and hollering a great deal more about the outing of Joe Wilson's wife, which was a criminal violation, in all likelihood, and also about the provision by the administration of false information relating to Iraqi weapons of mass -- weapons of mass destruction, for which, providing false information to the Congress, there are also a number of statutes, as Mr. Barr allows -- as Mr. Barr knows.
So I think this is clearly political.
PHILLIPS: All right. Julian is bringing up the commission, of course, outlining what we're supposed to see tomorrow.
Ten operational opportunities, we're told, missed by U.S. officials to detect or unravel the 9/11 plot. These are -- but the report finding that many of those opportunities were long shots. This is what is supposed to come out tomorrow, Bob.
So if, indeed, Sandy Berger took these documents specifically relating to what's going to come out tomorrow, what's the motivation here? Why would he do it? And what's the gain for him or the gain for anybody else in his party? BARR: Well, we don't really know. But what we do know, despite Julian's effort, I feel like I'm going through the impeachment again. Contextual. Everything is in context.
The fact of the matter is, and I would hope Julian would agree, that where you have documents that are classified documents, where you have documents that don't belong to an individual, whether it's one of one copy or one of a hundred copies, people should not be so cavalier about saying, well, somebody can just sort of take these because, after all, maybe it's just a duplicate.
It's very important for our government and any administration to protect national security secrets. And if there is, in fact, an addition to that, a motivation to keep documents from the commission, then that would be separate and apart and in addition to.
But the fact of the matter is, that these documents apparently were taken without permission. Mr. Berger of all people would know that. So very clearly at a minimum we have a very serious violation.
EPSTEIN: This was clearly...
BARR: We've got to protect the integrity of classified documents in the first place.
PHILLIPS: Talking about the documents, Julian, I mean there were these handwritten notes that he allegedly had taken.
EPSTEIN: Which he was allowed to take. This, again, this is silly. This is the former national security advisor of the United States, who had had access to these documents when he was a public official. They were duplicate copies that the commission had.
Mr. Barr can say all he wants about, you know, the strict legal interpretation of this. But the fact of the matter is, in the larger scheme of things, this is a very de minimus violation by all appearances.
And Mr. Barr in his answer evades talking about what's going to be in the 9/11 report. And what you'll see in the 9/11 report is clearly quite a contrast between the Clinton administrations and the Bush administration.
The Clinton administration had two warnings of major terrorist attacks. One the effort to blow up 12 airliners over the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and the second the millennium bombing. They took all the necessary steps to shake the trees, as the saying goes, and prevent the attacks from occurring.
Bush, by contrast, had numerous warnings about the 9/11 attack, had warnings by the FBI field officers, had warnings from his own national security advisor and basically did nothing.
This is -- this will essentially be the conclusion of the report. It's a report that Republicans have to distract attention from. And therefore, they'll go back to this kind of silly little thing about a national security advisor taking documents.
It was a foolish mistake. Documents he had already seen. And no prosecutor in their own mind would go after in a serious way, given the context of this thing.
And yes, context is important. If it wasn't, you would hear -- you again would hear Republicans talking about the other serious violations that have occurred under this administration's watch that you don't hear them talking very much about.
PHILLIPS: But if these documents that come out tomorrow with regard to this commission's investigation talk about missed opportunities on behalf of the Bush administration or on behalf of the Clinton administration. I mean, Bob, could we see a resurface here of a debate about 9/11? That it could have been prevented under the Clinton administration or that it could have been prevented under the Bush administration?
BARR: That is a legitimate debate, as long as it is a debate that has, as its goal, what can we do as a country, as an administration, whether it's the Kerry administration if he wins or the Bush administration, if he gets re-elected.
If, in fact, people of good faith like Julian I know is come together and say we're putting partisan politics aside. We're going to look at the substance of this report and take some steps to make sure that this doesn't happen again, hen that is a very legitimate debate.
But it ought not to be a debate about, well, more blame is here than blame is here and this -- this administration had these opportunities. Let's focus on the substance of it.
But with regard to Mr. Berger, he has a serious problem. And any administration ought to take very seriously somebody who takes documents to which he was not entitled to take, including highly classified documents.
PHILLIPS: All right, 10 seconds, Julian. We've got to wrap up. Creating a meaningless blame game? Or reforming intelligence?
EPSTEIN: To begin, I applaud Mr. -- Mr. Barr's sentiments. But generally the side that's going to lose a political debate says let's not politicize it. The fact is Republicans have politicized the war on terror. The record is now going to show not only major failings not only pre-9/11 but with Iraq.
And look, we have an election several months from now. And the question is going to be who can lead the country more safely in a difficult time, and who can manage the economy better? And these issues are going to be at the forefront of voters' minds. Right now the public doesn't seem to be approving the job that the president is doing. And that's the bottom line.
PHILLIPS: Julian Epstein, Bob Barr. Thanks, gentlemen.
EPSTEIN: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Tonight, Democratic vice presidential hopeful John Edwards and Elizabeth Edwards, they're going to be on CNN's "LARRY KIND LIVE." That's at 9 p.m. Eastern.
Be sure to stay with CNN. Starting Monday at 7 Eastern, we're going to have complete coverage of the Democratic National Convention, live from Boston.
O'BRIEN: Well it's amazing but true. Prince Charles hasn't done it in years, but he did remember to leave a tip. Whatever that's about. When we take you around the world.
And get to know the controversial artist behind what could be the most controversial 9/11 memorial thus far.
And no controversy at all, just a look back at the glory days. Three American heroes. Catch the best of my interview with the men of Apollo 11.
LIVE FROM has handed, mission control. After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: News around the world for you now. It begins with an emotional reunion in Abu Dhabi, where Filipino truck driver Angelo de la Cruz greeted his wife and brother. The former hostage freed yesterday when the Philippine government pulled the rest of its troops out of Iraq.
Taxicab confessions. Prince Charles took a spin around London Tuesday in one of Britain's famous black taxicabs. The heir to the throne admits he had been in a taxi only once before, when he was a little boy. The prince paid his $17 fare out of his pocket, apparently gave a tip. Hopefully he got a royal treatment.
Call it a case of reverse air rage. In passenger, a passenger on an air flight from Moscow to Siberia was beat up after he complained that the flight attendants were drunk. The crew has been temporarily dismissed, pending an investigation.
PHILLIPS: Now another story from Russia with a little more love. A sculptor in Moscow wants to create a 9/11 memorial on a New Jersey pier. Now if you've ever tried to get a big piece of artwork through U.S. Customs, you know it to be complicated. This project is encountering some red tape, also.
Here's Jill Dougherty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Artist, sculptor Zurab Tsereteli remembers exactly how he got the idea for his monument to the victims of September 11.
ZURAB TSERETELI, ARTIST (through translator): When the tragedy happened, I sat there and watched. It really affected me. I ran out in the street here in Moscow and saw people crying. And the idea was born.
DOUGHERTY: So Tsereteli, one of Russia's most famous and controversial artists, set to work designing his 9/11 project, a gift to America called Tear of Grief.
Jagged bronze columns, in real life nearly 10 stories high, holding a huge titanium teardrop. Water is pumped through it and cooled, creating smaller tears as if the monument is weeping.
He originally planned it for New York City, but when that didn't work out, he set his sights on Jersey City, New Jersey, a pier that juts out into the Hudson River just across from Ground Zero.
The city's mayor at the time gave his blessing, but then he died. The New Jersey City mayor, L. Harvey Smith, tells CNN he's not sure how the city ended up approving the monument. But nine out of ten residents don't want it.
L. HARVEY SMITH, MAYOR, JERSEY CITY: It's a tear. It's grief. And Jersey City has had enough grief in its history.
DOUGHERTY: The artist remains unfazed.
TSERETELI (through translator): There can be tears of happiness. If we unite against terrorism, there will be tears of joy.
DOUGHERTY: Tsereteli, head of the Russian Academy of Art, sculpts everything from political leaders to clowns and is no stranger to controversy. Moscow is full of his monumental works, which some critics call kitsch.
(on camera) This mammoth statue to Peter the Great was so unpopular one group even threatened to blow it up.
(voice-over) Zurab Tsereteli plans to unveil his 9/11 monument September 11 on Grundy Pier in Jersey City. The mayor says the city will accept the gift, but he's not saying where Jersey City will put it.
Jill Dougherty, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Well, they still look pretty good, and of course we love them. The heroes of Apollo 11: Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Mike Collins. We can't remember the last time they agreed to a joint interview, but today they did for me. The pinnacle of my space reporting career -- well sort of -- is ahead.
And what on earth is the former -- doing on the network currently known as CNN? Find out next.
And the world's hottest doughnut company cools off a little bit, at select locations only, of course. LIVE FROM shakes things up after this. It's always hot here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Can you keep a secret from my bosses? There are some days when I would do my job for free, it's so much fun.
Yesterday and today here in Washington, just such a time. I was here to mark the 35th anniversary of the first man landing on the moon.
The Apollo 11 team, Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin, met earlier today with President Bush at the White House. And shortly thereafter, I got the honor of talking to the men who had the whole world holding its collective breath 35 years ago.
Among the things we discussed, the future of the space program. Even as NASA's proposed 2005 budget suffered on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: This gradual evolutionary process, Neil Armstrong, is the approach right now of the Bush administration to NASA. Do you think that can work? It's a far cry what you experienced in the Apollo days.
NEIL ARMSTRONG, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: Yes it is; it is a different approach. And I don't know a lot about the details of the plan. I think that's going to evolve over the next couple of years, as this is discussed by NASA, and the other members of the technological community and put some flesh on the bones. And I think then we'll be in a much better position to judge what really makes sense.
O'BRIEN: On this 35th anniversary, though, I suppose it's nice to be having a conversation like this, which is forward thinking, as opposed to just once again regaling old tales.
MICHAEL COLLINS, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: It certainly is. Nice to be looking forward.
O'BRIEN: Michael Collins, as long as we're mentioning regaling old tales, this time 35 years ago you were alone in that command module. What are your recollections today? What memories come to the fore? And what are your thoughts about the accomplishment 35 years later?
COLLINS: Well, I was very happy in the command module by myself. I was sort of glad to get these guys out of my hair for a few hours, a day or two.
I -- no, I think the -- in my memory it's that things went as well as they did go on that particular flight and on Apollo flights in general. There were so many things that could go wrong, small things that could balloon into large tragedies. And we were very fortunate that none of those things overtook us, and that did surprise me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Mike Collins, the man who was in the command module orbiting as they were on the moon. You know, and Kyra, he wrote about it afterwards extensively, what it would have been like if things had gone wrong on the moon. Imagine what that trip back to Earth alone might have been like. It's a good thing it all went well 35 years ago.
PHILLIPS: Now, I know they tell a lot of things that a lot of us don't know. Any secrets you can reveal today? I saw you kind of hobnobbing there on the back hall.
O'BRIEN: Secrets about the astronauts? And stories?
PHILLIPS: Maybe things that happened on the moon that maybe we don't know about.
O'BRIEN: You're going to trap me into something I shouldn't say. That's a photograph of Buzz Aldrin, and I'm trying to nail it down. Just suffice it to say I'm working on it.
PHILLIPS: All right, Miles, see you in a little bit.
O'BRIEN: All right.
PHILLIPS: Well, clearing the confusion over food labeling. President Bush is expected to sign a bill passed by Congress yesterday that would require food labels to identify allergies in easy to read language. That could ease the minds of millions of Americans with food allergies.
Our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, takes a closer look at the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When 11-year-old Sam Gilman reaches for a snack, he knows what to do.
SAM GILMAN, FOOD ALLERGY SUFFERER: Basically, you have to read it from bottom to top and backwards, because that way you concentrate word for word.
GUPTA: And not miss even a trace amount of anything, because that could be deadly. You see, Sam has food allergies to peanuts, tree nuts, sesame and poppy seeds and shellfish.
GILMAN: I go into anaphylactic shock and worst-case scenario I could die.
GUPTA: Like others with life threatening allergies, Sam has lots of an antibody called IGE. If he is even remotely exposed to an allergen, chemicals are released in the body that cause a frightening reaction.
ANNE MUNOZ-FURLONG, FOOD ALLERGY & ANAPHYLANIS NET: Difficulty breathing, swelling of the lips, or the tongue, the throat. It can hit the gastrointestinal system with vomiting, cramping, diarrhea. You can have hives on your arms or all over the body.
In severe reactions, it can cause a drop in blood pressure, loss of consciousness and death.
GUPTA: Sam is not alone. According to the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine five years ago, five million Americans suffered from food allergies. Today the number exceeds 11 million. It's unclear why.
MUNOZ-FURLONG: One of the theories is that perhaps we've changed the way we live. Our homes are cleaner. Our immune system doesn't have anything to do. And for some people, it's developing allergies.
GUPTA: For those with food allergies, avoidance is currently the only option.
GILMAN: This is OK.
GUPTA: But avoiding allergens is not always easy. Sometimes it also involves learning a new language.
For example, lacto globulin and casen (ph) equal milk. Spelt and seitan (ph), that equals wheat.
ABDY GILMAN, SAM'S FATHER: Can you just tell me what is in the artichoke salad?
GUPTA: Like many people, Sam and his family first learned about his allergies when he almost died as an infant. Today they take no chances.
A. GILMAN: We've been lucky that we haven't had another incident like the first one, where we've had to -- But that doesn't mean you can relax your guard at any time.
GUPTA: Good advice, because although researchers are working on an immunization no cure exists as yet.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Hot doughnuts might not feel like the right treat on hot summer days, but how about a glazed doughnut drink?
Darby Mullany joins us live from the New York Stock Exchange.
(MARKET REPORT)
PHILLIPS: Well preparing for terror at the Athens Olympics, Greek troops training for the worst. U.S. Special Forces join security efforts. Will it be enough? We're on that story next on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
