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Terror Suspect Held for Possibly Casing Southern U.S. Targets; Al-Sadr Vows to Fight to Death in Najaf
Aired August 11, 2004 - 13:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Taping for terror? A man taken into custody along with his video collection of buildings and transit systems in several American cities.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A vow to fight to the death in Najaf as American and Iraqi forces plan a major assault to crush a rebellion.
O'BRIEN: Bonnie creeps, but Charley might leap -- forecasters watching two big storms bearing down on the U.S.
WHITFIELD: And without warning, a new study on heart attacks and women -- what doctors and patients need to know. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now. And we begin this hour with the war on terror. One U.S. citizen confesses to aiding al-Qaeda, and a Pakistani man is arrested for videotaping certain sites in six southern cities. CNN's Sean Callebs is following these developments from Washington for us.
Hello, Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Miles. Indeed, an evolving story. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge saying earlier today there is nothing that ties a 35-year-old Pakistani apprehended man while videotaping a North Carolina skyline to terrorist organizations. A 35-year-old, Kamran Shaikh, who also goes by the name of Kamran Akhtar, is being held in federal custody.
Shaikh was arrested three weeks ago after authorities spotted him taking pictures of the 60-story Bank of America headquarters in downtown Charlotte. Now, besides buildings in North Carolina, authorities say videotapes in his possession had buildings and transit systems in a number of southern cities, including Austin, Houston, and Dallas, Texas, New Orleans and Atlanta.
Shaikh lives in New York. Authorities there reportedly view him as a, quote, "video buff." Shaikh has been charged with violating immigration laws by making false statements. And authorities say despite no overt connections to terrorists, the federal investigation is continuing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It's difficult, again, at this time, to say anything to you other than he is apprehended, being held on immigration violation charges. There's nothing that we know today, now, as we speak, that he's connected in any way to terrorist or potential terrorist activity. There's nothing we know now today that suggests the tapes are casings of particular communities for operational purposes. That's what we know now today. The investigation is ongoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Meanwhile, in New York, his brother says Shaikh was pursuing the American dream. When asked if Shaikh's actions videotaping buildings and skylines looked suspicious, his brother had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRFAN AKHTAR, BROTHER OF SUSPECT: When he left his country, he told my mom that he is not going to come back because he loves America... "I will be there, I'll be raising my family there." He's a family guy.
QUESTION: Would you admit that to the authorities, these pictures must look suspicious?
AKHTAR: I absolutely agree. I mean, there is nothing wrong in suspecting that. But to involve him in something which he hasn't done... doesn't dislike America -- I mean, then America is no normal free country, sorry to say that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: The affidavit alleges Shaikh took pictures of the Wachovia building in Charlotte, but Wachovia says it has not had offices in the skyscraper shown on the videotape in years. Authorities contend Shaikh also took pictures of Atlanta's MARTA, or rapid transportation system. But MARTA says its police have looked at the tape and say Shaikh did not videotape the transit system -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: You know, Sean, I guess maybe there's more to this than meets the eye, but I can imagine a tourist being interested in both skyscrapers and trains, and taking pictures.
CALLEBS: It's interesting too, because as he makes -- or at least the videotape indicates, in Dallas, in Louisiana, in Georgia, then on into North Carolina, and authorities did not make this known, the fact that the Pakistani was being held in connection with the videotapes for three weeks. This happened back on July 20th. So perhaps more information will come out. But now, it's pretty clear... jumpy society out there.
O'BRIEN: I should say. Sean Callebs in Washington, thanks very much -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: The Iraqi National Congress says its controversial leader, Ahmed Chalabi, is back in Iraq to face an arrest warrant. The interim Iraqi government is accusing the former Bush administration confidante of counterfeiting. His nephew has been accused of murder. Both men emphatically deny the charges. Ahmed Chalabi has been at a trade conference in Iran. His daughter says he has returned to Iraq to seek justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMARA CHALABI, AHMED CHALABI'S DAUGHTER: In the latest of a series of false charges against my father, Ahmed Chalabi, he has been accused of counterfeiting Iraqi currency. This is false. He has never counterfeited anything. These accusations, like others we have endured over the past 15 years, are lies and smears, and an attempt to take away credit from an honest and courageous man, and they will fail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Also in Iraq, a blitz aimed at ending the standoff in Najaf may be imminent. Troops have been battling fighters loyal to renegade Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr for days now. Now, U.S. and Iraqi forces say they're gearing up for a major assault. Retired Army Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano is a Heritage Foundation Senior Research Fellow in Defense, and he's in our Washington bureau. Good to see you, Lieutenant Colonel.
Well, credibility is at stake, mostly for the Americans or for the Iraqi interim government? Lieutenant Colonel, can you hear me OK? All right, it looks like we're having some audio problems. We'll try to fix that and try to get back to him in a moment. Miles...
O'BRIEN: President Bush is taking his election campaign to a southwestern state he lost four years ago by only 366 votes. Today, he flew from his ranch in Texas to Albuquerque, New Mexico to campaign once again with Senator John McCain. They'll move onto McCain's home state of Arizona after that. McCain revved up crowds in Florida for the president yesterday.
Democratic rival John Kerry in the southwest as well. The Massachusetts senator is winding up a southern Nevada campaign swing right now. He told seniors in Henderson, Nevada today he'd cut prescription drug costs by letting medicines in from Canada, overhauling the Medicare drug plan, and helping generic drugs compete. And he spoke to other concerns of retirees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will never privatize social security. I will not cut the benefits, and I will not raise the retirement age in this country, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: For all the details on those campaign events and more, get the complete political pictures, as always, afternoons on "INSIDE POLITICS WITH JUDY WOODRUFF." Once again, as always, 3:30 Eastern, 12:30 Pacific, right here on CNN. And of course, today, one of the focuses will be the battle for seniors' votes, which are key as this election season unfolds, and as both candidates spend so much time in and amongst retirees both in Florida and in the nation's southwest -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks, Miles. Well, Florida residents are bracing for a double dose of dangerous weather...
(WEATHER REPORT)
WHITFIELD: Let's go back now to more talk in Iraq, where, after seven days of fighting in Najaf, loyalists committed to the efforts of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are clashing with U.S. as well as Iraqi forces. We'll try to bring in Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano, formerly of the U.S. Army and now with the Heritage Foundation. It sounds like you can hear me now, right, Lieutenant Colonel?
LT. COL. JAMES CARAFANO, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I think that's exactly the point. Al-Sadr and his militia doesn't have enough military force to throw the United States out of Iraq or overthrow the Iraqi government. So the real question is here is, what's really important? And what's really important is what the Iraqi people believe. You know, do they have faith in this government? Do they respect the sovereignty of this government? Do they see it as legitimate?
So we really need to keep our eye on the big picture. The big picture is continue to move forward in the political process. The military operations are really supportive of that.
WHITFIELD: And if the Iraqi forces try to retreat, uninvolved themselves in this battle, what is at stake?
CARAFANO: Well, I think that would be unfortunate. I mean, I think the Iraqis have to stand up and take responsibility for their own country. The critical thing is that we don't have to get rid of every terrorist. We're not going to do that. There's always going to be terrorists in this country for years. There's arms everywhere, there's munitions everywhere. People can make trouble; it doesn't take a lot of people to do that.
But what they are going to have to do is create a semblance of responsibility and control, and that's why they need to keep their eye on the political process. And the military operations really have to be key to supporting and moving the government forward. I mean, whether they get al-Sadr now or later really doesn't matter.
I mean, the key thing is, this is really a repeat of what happened last spring. You know, the militias rose up, they attacked, and what happened? Most Iraqis stood by and said, you know, "Have a nice revolution." People didn't run out in the streets and join these guys, and they're not doing it now, which means they don't have a popular base of support, which means they're a problem, but they're not a crisis.
WHITFIELD: Because of these geo-political implications, potentially, does that mean that this alliance, this relationship in this fighting between the U.S. and Iraq might be fragile, particularly since we now hear that a senior interim government leader, a vice president, is asking the U.S. to back off and leave this up to the Iraqi forces?
CARAFANO: Well, I think that's a reflection of the key nature of this, is it's as much a political issue as it is a military issue. Again, the purpose of security is not to seize a town or crush al- Sadr. The purpose of security is to further the political process over the country. So there's going to be disagreements, there's going to be negotiation, and that's part of it.
And getting that right, getting that right and expanding the legitimacy of the Iraqi government, the sovereignty of the Iraqi government, getting Iraqi security forces in the field to take control, those are the most important metrics of success.
WHITFIELD: But you also have to wonder, ultimately, what is going to be accomplished, particularly since this is a holy site here in Najaf, and these religious symbols are in the middle of this fighting. Already, there's been some damage to one of the shrines there. What could potentially happen if there's further damage or more significant damage to these religious symbols?
CARAFANO: Well, certainly, they're important, and we need to be respectful of them, so we've got a double challenge there. We've got U.S. forces in the area. Obviously, they shouldn't, and should not, and really can't do operations that endanger the safety of the U.S. forces. So they've got to do that, and at the same time, they have to respect these things.
And I think, you know, we've been doing this for months now, and I think we can manage that balance.
WHITFIELD: But we've seen this before. If these loyalists use these religious shrines in any way as a place of cover, then ultimately, they will be damaged and, consequently, you know, the rumors will be going as to who really caused damage and who's at blame here.
CARAFANO: And this is where the Iraqi government really has to step up to the plate and take responsibility for these things. You know, at some point, we had to deal with these guys. I mean, you cannot have little fiefdoms, little warlords, little sanctuaries be established in Iraq where people can come out and attack the government whenever they want to, where they can rest, and rehabilitate, and rearm, and refuel, and bring in supplies and resources from outside.
So sooner or later, the government is going to have to deal with these places. That's true. And how they deal with them is just as important in dealing with them. It's got to be moving the political process forward, broadening security about the whole country. Again, the good news is this is not a popular uprising. They don't appear to have widespread popular support. They can't win militarily, so it's just another of the many, many, many challenges the Iraqi government's going to face in the future. But this is exactly what they're there for, to take back their country and take back their lives.
WHITFIELD: From Washington, Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano, thanks very much, at the Heritage Foundation.
CARAFANO: Thanks for having me.
WHITFIELD: A request for a delay in the Kobe Bryant trial -- what does that say about the case? We'll talk about today's newest developments straight ahead.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rusty Dornin in Redwood City, California, where jurors hear more tapped phone conversations between Amber Frey and Scott Peterson. Details of those conversations coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES ANCHOR: There was a little bit of a conversation and they cuffed me and charged me with disorderly conduct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: And 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace takes a trip downtown. We'll book that one straight ahead on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: New legal troubles and a possible delay for NBA superstar Kobe Bryant. The district attorney in Bryant's criminal case is asking for more time before the case goes to trial. It was set to begin in a little over two weeks. The woman accusing Bryant of sexual assault has filed a civil suit against him.
WHITFIELD: The other woman in Scott Peterson's life, Amber Frey, is on the stand in his trial this week. She's testified that Peterson told her a series of lies in their affair. Rusty Dornin is following the trial from Redwood City, California -- Rusty.
DORNIN: Well, we had a bit of a delay this morning. There was a closed-door session for about an hour, and then one of the jurors was late for court. In the meantime, Amber Frey arrived once again under very tight security, accompanied by several Modesto police detectives and taken to the underground garage, and then straight up to the courtroom.
Now, they started straight off this morning with an hour-long tape of a New Year's Day conversation where Scott Peterson is continuing to pretend he's in Europe, and Amber Frey continues to play along. The court ended yesterday with another tape of a New Year's Eve conversation that was taking place right before a candlelight vigil for Laci Peterson, who'd been missing for six days, where Scott Peterson called Amber and said he was in Paris and had been watching fireworks at the Eiffel Tower. And it capped a day of very intimate details about Amber Frey's first four dates with Scott Peterson. She described him as very charming, giving her champagne, roses, talking about long term relationships, giving gifts to her daughter. But also along with that, from the very beginning, a web of lies about everything, about where he lived, where he was going, the fact that he was not married. And then he told her also that he had lost his wife -- that's why he had lied to her about being married.
Prosecutors say it shows that Peterson proceeded in this relationship very quickly, very passionately. It was very intense, and therefore, it was a motive for murder. The defense, on the other hand, is saying, "Look, it was only four dates. It didn't really mean a lot. We've already admitted that Scott was a liar and cheater, but he certainly did not murder his wife."
We're expecting to hear some more telephone conversations today. Amber Frey is expected to be on the stand through this week and into next week -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Rusty, what was the demeanor of Scott Peterson while she testified?
DORNIN: He was watching her very intently and taking notes, and she was studiously avoiding his eyes. She only looked at him when prosecutors asked her to identify him directly, and that's the only time she looked in his direction. But she has not wanted to see him at all. And he, on the other hand, seems to be just very intent on her testimony.
WHITFIELD: Rusty Dornin in Redwood City, California, thanks very much. Miles...
O'BRIEN: Which brings us to our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who will help us sort through legal cases of the day. Jeff Toobin, good to see you. Let's start with Amber Frey. Clearly, it's prurient. Clearly, the jury is listening, no question about it. We're all paying attention to this testimony. But Scott Peterson is not on trial for adultery. The issue here is murder.
And the question is, do these details lead a jury to a conclusion that he's guilty of murder?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that obviously is the question, and I don't have the answer. What is interesting is the amount of lying. I mean, obviously, adultery implies a certain amount of lying, which is implicit in the misconduct. But what the prosecutors, I think, are correctly relying on is that it's not just the lying of the adultery. It's the, you know, fantasy life of, you know, being in Paris, of living in Sacramento or Fresno -- I forgot which city it was -- that the degree of lies is so great, it's as if he was living a complete fantasy life that murder would fit more into. That's the theory of the prosecution.
O'BRIEN: So you're taking the jury down the road of deceit and sort of ratcheting up the level of deceit and leading him to that conclusion, potentially. But there are other shortcomings in this case, though. Will this kind of paper over some of those shortcomings?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, there are shortcomings. There's no physical evidence other than a hair that could have come, at any point, from Laci Peterson in the boat. There's no eyewitness. There's no clear cause of death. The single most incriminating factor in this case has nothing to do with Amber Frey.
The single most incriminating fact is that Scott Peterson was at San Francisco Bay, 80 miles away from their house, at the precise location his wife's body was discovered months later. That's the most important piece of evidence in this case. And Amber Frey is sort of interesting, but she's not nearly as important as that factor.
O'BRIEN: It certainly gives the jury a sense of Peterson's character. To the extent that that weighs in their deliberations, we'll just have to find out, I guess. Let's talk about Kobe Bryant, because in many respects, that's a bigger legal story today. Essentially, I guess, you know, the prosecutor is pretty much putting up a white flag at this point, whatever you may call it.
Why don't you walk us through the strategy and why they would ask for a delay at this juncture.
TOOBIN: Well, things have been going so badly for the prosecutors at this point. You have the alleged victim, the accuser virtually saying that she's out of the case, that she doesn't want to participate. She's filed a civil lawsuit, which, of course, calls her motives into question. What the prosecutors have done now is what lawyers always try to do when they're in trouble, which is delay, hope things get better with a little time.
But what's interesting here is what will Kobe Bryant's lawyers do in response? One aggressive response might be to say, "Heck no, we don't want any delay. You indicted this guy. You said you could go to trial. Let's go to trial now." Hold the prosecutors' feet to the fire and hope that that's the factor that causes them to pull the plug altogether.
O'BRIEN: Well, and I can't imagine the defense not doing that under these circumstances. They do have a speedy trial law there in Colorado, which they can rely upon, or is that not as ironclad as we think?
TOOBIN: Speedy trial laws are very easy to get around. There are times excluded. It's really, I think, more of a strategic question than a legal question. And I think, you know, the defense lawyers will be pulled in two directions, because sometimes, you just always want to delay. Defendants never really want to rush to trial. But here, with the prosecutors so clearly reeling, it seems to me that the likely strategy is they'll just say, "Hey, you indicted him, you said you could go to trial, let's go and see what happens."
O'BRIEN: You know, this one is worth a couple thousand words by one Jeff Toobin of the New Yorker, because I'm very curious about where to point the fingers on this one. That courtroom was a mess. Was it the prosecution? Was it the judge? What happened?
TOOBIN: I think the prosecutors are the problem here. I think this case was inadequately investigated before it was indicted. If you look at the evidence that has come out about, you know, DNA that was on the accuser's body when she came to court, when she was examined following the rape exam, DNA that could not be associated with Kobe Bryant, I don't know how you indict a case at that point.
There was no hurry to indict him. Kobe Bryant wasn't going anywhere. I think if this case falls apart, the prosecutors are really going to have a lot to answer for. I don't blame the judge at all.
O'BRIEN: Up against the clock, Jeff Toobin, quick recess, thanks.
TOOBIN: Wait, one more point, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Yeah.
TOOBIN: Free Mike Wallace.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Well, everyone knows that whole grain bread is healthier, even if some people don't like the taste.
O'BRIEN: Whole grain bread and meatloaf, if you're Mike Wallace, are one of the better...
WHITFIELD: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Just what you want for dinner. Free Mike Wallace, all right. Anyway...
WHITFIELD: Yes...
O'BRIEN: We're still buzzing over Jeff Toobin.
WHITFIELD: ... well, apparently, there's a new spin on this whole grain bread. And that's the segue we're trying to...
O'BRIEN: So I have digressed in an area you didn't want to go.
WHITFIELD: Well, you know...
O'BRIEN: But Rhonda Schaffler is always there to bail us out when we do this...
(MARKET REPORT)
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Aired August 11, 2004 - 13:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Taping for terror? A man taken into custody along with his video collection of buildings and transit systems in several American cities.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A vow to fight to the death in Najaf as American and Iraqi forces plan a major assault to crush a rebellion.
O'BRIEN: Bonnie creeps, but Charley might leap -- forecasters watching two big storms bearing down on the U.S.
WHITFIELD: And without warning, a new study on heart attacks and women -- what doctors and patients need to know. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now. And we begin this hour with the war on terror. One U.S. citizen confesses to aiding al-Qaeda, and a Pakistani man is arrested for videotaping certain sites in six southern cities. CNN's Sean Callebs is following these developments from Washington for us.
Hello, Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Miles. Indeed, an evolving story. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge saying earlier today there is nothing that ties a 35-year-old Pakistani apprehended man while videotaping a North Carolina skyline to terrorist organizations. A 35-year-old, Kamran Shaikh, who also goes by the name of Kamran Akhtar, is being held in federal custody.
Shaikh was arrested three weeks ago after authorities spotted him taking pictures of the 60-story Bank of America headquarters in downtown Charlotte. Now, besides buildings in North Carolina, authorities say videotapes in his possession had buildings and transit systems in a number of southern cities, including Austin, Houston, and Dallas, Texas, New Orleans and Atlanta.
Shaikh lives in New York. Authorities there reportedly view him as a, quote, "video buff." Shaikh has been charged with violating immigration laws by making false statements. And authorities say despite no overt connections to terrorists, the federal investigation is continuing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It's difficult, again, at this time, to say anything to you other than he is apprehended, being held on immigration violation charges. There's nothing that we know today, now, as we speak, that he's connected in any way to terrorist or potential terrorist activity. There's nothing we know now today that suggests the tapes are casings of particular communities for operational purposes. That's what we know now today. The investigation is ongoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Meanwhile, in New York, his brother says Shaikh was pursuing the American dream. When asked if Shaikh's actions videotaping buildings and skylines looked suspicious, his brother had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRFAN AKHTAR, BROTHER OF SUSPECT: When he left his country, he told my mom that he is not going to come back because he loves America... "I will be there, I'll be raising my family there." He's a family guy.
QUESTION: Would you admit that to the authorities, these pictures must look suspicious?
AKHTAR: I absolutely agree. I mean, there is nothing wrong in suspecting that. But to involve him in something which he hasn't done... doesn't dislike America -- I mean, then America is no normal free country, sorry to say that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: The affidavit alleges Shaikh took pictures of the Wachovia building in Charlotte, but Wachovia says it has not had offices in the skyscraper shown on the videotape in years. Authorities contend Shaikh also took pictures of Atlanta's MARTA, or rapid transportation system. But MARTA says its police have looked at the tape and say Shaikh did not videotape the transit system -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: You know, Sean, I guess maybe there's more to this than meets the eye, but I can imagine a tourist being interested in both skyscrapers and trains, and taking pictures.
CALLEBS: It's interesting too, because as he makes -- or at least the videotape indicates, in Dallas, in Louisiana, in Georgia, then on into North Carolina, and authorities did not make this known, the fact that the Pakistani was being held in connection with the videotapes for three weeks. This happened back on July 20th. So perhaps more information will come out. But now, it's pretty clear... jumpy society out there.
O'BRIEN: I should say. Sean Callebs in Washington, thanks very much -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: The Iraqi National Congress says its controversial leader, Ahmed Chalabi, is back in Iraq to face an arrest warrant. The interim Iraqi government is accusing the former Bush administration confidante of counterfeiting. His nephew has been accused of murder. Both men emphatically deny the charges. Ahmed Chalabi has been at a trade conference in Iran. His daughter says he has returned to Iraq to seek justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMARA CHALABI, AHMED CHALABI'S DAUGHTER: In the latest of a series of false charges against my father, Ahmed Chalabi, he has been accused of counterfeiting Iraqi currency. This is false. He has never counterfeited anything. These accusations, like others we have endured over the past 15 years, are lies and smears, and an attempt to take away credit from an honest and courageous man, and they will fail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Also in Iraq, a blitz aimed at ending the standoff in Najaf may be imminent. Troops have been battling fighters loyal to renegade Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr for days now. Now, U.S. and Iraqi forces say they're gearing up for a major assault. Retired Army Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano is a Heritage Foundation Senior Research Fellow in Defense, and he's in our Washington bureau. Good to see you, Lieutenant Colonel.
Well, credibility is at stake, mostly for the Americans or for the Iraqi interim government? Lieutenant Colonel, can you hear me OK? All right, it looks like we're having some audio problems. We'll try to fix that and try to get back to him in a moment. Miles...
O'BRIEN: President Bush is taking his election campaign to a southwestern state he lost four years ago by only 366 votes. Today, he flew from his ranch in Texas to Albuquerque, New Mexico to campaign once again with Senator John McCain. They'll move onto McCain's home state of Arizona after that. McCain revved up crowds in Florida for the president yesterday.
Democratic rival John Kerry in the southwest as well. The Massachusetts senator is winding up a southern Nevada campaign swing right now. He told seniors in Henderson, Nevada today he'd cut prescription drug costs by letting medicines in from Canada, overhauling the Medicare drug plan, and helping generic drugs compete. And he spoke to other concerns of retirees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will never privatize social security. I will not cut the benefits, and I will not raise the retirement age in this country, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: For all the details on those campaign events and more, get the complete political pictures, as always, afternoons on "INSIDE POLITICS WITH JUDY WOODRUFF." Once again, as always, 3:30 Eastern, 12:30 Pacific, right here on CNN. And of course, today, one of the focuses will be the battle for seniors' votes, which are key as this election season unfolds, and as both candidates spend so much time in and amongst retirees both in Florida and in the nation's southwest -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks, Miles. Well, Florida residents are bracing for a double dose of dangerous weather...
(WEATHER REPORT)
WHITFIELD: Let's go back now to more talk in Iraq, where, after seven days of fighting in Najaf, loyalists committed to the efforts of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are clashing with U.S. as well as Iraqi forces. We'll try to bring in Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano, formerly of the U.S. Army and now with the Heritage Foundation. It sounds like you can hear me now, right, Lieutenant Colonel?
LT. COL. JAMES CARAFANO, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I think that's exactly the point. Al-Sadr and his militia doesn't have enough military force to throw the United States out of Iraq or overthrow the Iraqi government. So the real question is here is, what's really important? And what's really important is what the Iraqi people believe. You know, do they have faith in this government? Do they respect the sovereignty of this government? Do they see it as legitimate?
So we really need to keep our eye on the big picture. The big picture is continue to move forward in the political process. The military operations are really supportive of that.
WHITFIELD: And if the Iraqi forces try to retreat, uninvolved themselves in this battle, what is at stake?
CARAFANO: Well, I think that would be unfortunate. I mean, I think the Iraqis have to stand up and take responsibility for their own country. The critical thing is that we don't have to get rid of every terrorist. We're not going to do that. There's always going to be terrorists in this country for years. There's arms everywhere, there's munitions everywhere. People can make trouble; it doesn't take a lot of people to do that.
But what they are going to have to do is create a semblance of responsibility and control, and that's why they need to keep their eye on the political process. And the military operations really have to be key to supporting and moving the government forward. I mean, whether they get al-Sadr now or later really doesn't matter.
I mean, the key thing is, this is really a repeat of what happened last spring. You know, the militias rose up, they attacked, and what happened? Most Iraqis stood by and said, you know, "Have a nice revolution." People didn't run out in the streets and join these guys, and they're not doing it now, which means they don't have a popular base of support, which means they're a problem, but they're not a crisis.
WHITFIELD: Because of these geo-political implications, potentially, does that mean that this alliance, this relationship in this fighting between the U.S. and Iraq might be fragile, particularly since we now hear that a senior interim government leader, a vice president, is asking the U.S. to back off and leave this up to the Iraqi forces?
CARAFANO: Well, I think that's a reflection of the key nature of this, is it's as much a political issue as it is a military issue. Again, the purpose of security is not to seize a town or crush al- Sadr. The purpose of security is to further the political process over the country. So there's going to be disagreements, there's going to be negotiation, and that's part of it.
And getting that right, getting that right and expanding the legitimacy of the Iraqi government, the sovereignty of the Iraqi government, getting Iraqi security forces in the field to take control, those are the most important metrics of success.
WHITFIELD: But you also have to wonder, ultimately, what is going to be accomplished, particularly since this is a holy site here in Najaf, and these religious symbols are in the middle of this fighting. Already, there's been some damage to one of the shrines there. What could potentially happen if there's further damage or more significant damage to these religious symbols?
CARAFANO: Well, certainly, they're important, and we need to be respectful of them, so we've got a double challenge there. We've got U.S. forces in the area. Obviously, they shouldn't, and should not, and really can't do operations that endanger the safety of the U.S. forces. So they've got to do that, and at the same time, they have to respect these things.
And I think, you know, we've been doing this for months now, and I think we can manage that balance.
WHITFIELD: But we've seen this before. If these loyalists use these religious shrines in any way as a place of cover, then ultimately, they will be damaged and, consequently, you know, the rumors will be going as to who really caused damage and who's at blame here.
CARAFANO: And this is where the Iraqi government really has to step up to the plate and take responsibility for these things. You know, at some point, we had to deal with these guys. I mean, you cannot have little fiefdoms, little warlords, little sanctuaries be established in Iraq where people can come out and attack the government whenever they want to, where they can rest, and rehabilitate, and rearm, and refuel, and bring in supplies and resources from outside.
So sooner or later, the government is going to have to deal with these places. That's true. And how they deal with them is just as important in dealing with them. It's got to be moving the political process forward, broadening security about the whole country. Again, the good news is this is not a popular uprising. They don't appear to have widespread popular support. They can't win militarily, so it's just another of the many, many, many challenges the Iraqi government's going to face in the future. But this is exactly what they're there for, to take back their country and take back their lives.
WHITFIELD: From Washington, Lieutenant Colonel James Carafano, thanks very much, at the Heritage Foundation.
CARAFANO: Thanks for having me.
WHITFIELD: A request for a delay in the Kobe Bryant trial -- what does that say about the case? We'll talk about today's newest developments straight ahead.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rusty Dornin in Redwood City, California, where jurors hear more tapped phone conversations between Amber Frey and Scott Peterson. Details of those conversations coming up.
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MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES ANCHOR: There was a little bit of a conversation and they cuffed me and charged me with disorderly conduct.
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WHITFIELD: And 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace takes a trip downtown. We'll book that one straight ahead on LIVE FROM.
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O'BRIEN: New legal troubles and a possible delay for NBA superstar Kobe Bryant. The district attorney in Bryant's criminal case is asking for more time before the case goes to trial. It was set to begin in a little over two weeks. The woman accusing Bryant of sexual assault has filed a civil suit against him.
WHITFIELD: The other woman in Scott Peterson's life, Amber Frey, is on the stand in his trial this week. She's testified that Peterson told her a series of lies in their affair. Rusty Dornin is following the trial from Redwood City, California -- Rusty.
DORNIN: Well, we had a bit of a delay this morning. There was a closed-door session for about an hour, and then one of the jurors was late for court. In the meantime, Amber Frey arrived once again under very tight security, accompanied by several Modesto police detectives and taken to the underground garage, and then straight up to the courtroom.
Now, they started straight off this morning with an hour-long tape of a New Year's Day conversation where Scott Peterson is continuing to pretend he's in Europe, and Amber Frey continues to play along. The court ended yesterday with another tape of a New Year's Eve conversation that was taking place right before a candlelight vigil for Laci Peterson, who'd been missing for six days, where Scott Peterson called Amber and said he was in Paris and had been watching fireworks at the Eiffel Tower. And it capped a day of very intimate details about Amber Frey's first four dates with Scott Peterson. She described him as very charming, giving her champagne, roses, talking about long term relationships, giving gifts to her daughter. But also along with that, from the very beginning, a web of lies about everything, about where he lived, where he was going, the fact that he was not married. And then he told her also that he had lost his wife -- that's why he had lied to her about being married.
Prosecutors say it shows that Peterson proceeded in this relationship very quickly, very passionately. It was very intense, and therefore, it was a motive for murder. The defense, on the other hand, is saying, "Look, it was only four dates. It didn't really mean a lot. We've already admitted that Scott was a liar and cheater, but he certainly did not murder his wife."
We're expecting to hear some more telephone conversations today. Amber Frey is expected to be on the stand through this week and into next week -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Rusty, what was the demeanor of Scott Peterson while she testified?
DORNIN: He was watching her very intently and taking notes, and she was studiously avoiding his eyes. She only looked at him when prosecutors asked her to identify him directly, and that's the only time she looked in his direction. But she has not wanted to see him at all. And he, on the other hand, seems to be just very intent on her testimony.
WHITFIELD: Rusty Dornin in Redwood City, California, thanks very much. Miles...
O'BRIEN: Which brings us to our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who will help us sort through legal cases of the day. Jeff Toobin, good to see you. Let's start with Amber Frey. Clearly, it's prurient. Clearly, the jury is listening, no question about it. We're all paying attention to this testimony. But Scott Peterson is not on trial for adultery. The issue here is murder.
And the question is, do these details lead a jury to a conclusion that he's guilty of murder?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that obviously is the question, and I don't have the answer. What is interesting is the amount of lying. I mean, obviously, adultery implies a certain amount of lying, which is implicit in the misconduct. But what the prosecutors, I think, are correctly relying on is that it's not just the lying of the adultery. It's the, you know, fantasy life of, you know, being in Paris, of living in Sacramento or Fresno -- I forgot which city it was -- that the degree of lies is so great, it's as if he was living a complete fantasy life that murder would fit more into. That's the theory of the prosecution.
O'BRIEN: So you're taking the jury down the road of deceit and sort of ratcheting up the level of deceit and leading him to that conclusion, potentially. But there are other shortcomings in this case, though. Will this kind of paper over some of those shortcomings?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, there are shortcomings. There's no physical evidence other than a hair that could have come, at any point, from Laci Peterson in the boat. There's no eyewitness. There's no clear cause of death. The single most incriminating factor in this case has nothing to do with Amber Frey.
The single most incriminating fact is that Scott Peterson was at San Francisco Bay, 80 miles away from their house, at the precise location his wife's body was discovered months later. That's the most important piece of evidence in this case. And Amber Frey is sort of interesting, but she's not nearly as important as that factor.
O'BRIEN: It certainly gives the jury a sense of Peterson's character. To the extent that that weighs in their deliberations, we'll just have to find out, I guess. Let's talk about Kobe Bryant, because in many respects, that's a bigger legal story today. Essentially, I guess, you know, the prosecutor is pretty much putting up a white flag at this point, whatever you may call it.
Why don't you walk us through the strategy and why they would ask for a delay at this juncture.
TOOBIN: Well, things have been going so badly for the prosecutors at this point. You have the alleged victim, the accuser virtually saying that she's out of the case, that she doesn't want to participate. She's filed a civil lawsuit, which, of course, calls her motives into question. What the prosecutors have done now is what lawyers always try to do when they're in trouble, which is delay, hope things get better with a little time.
But what's interesting here is what will Kobe Bryant's lawyers do in response? One aggressive response might be to say, "Heck no, we don't want any delay. You indicted this guy. You said you could go to trial. Let's go to trial now." Hold the prosecutors' feet to the fire and hope that that's the factor that causes them to pull the plug altogether.
O'BRIEN: Well, and I can't imagine the defense not doing that under these circumstances. They do have a speedy trial law there in Colorado, which they can rely upon, or is that not as ironclad as we think?
TOOBIN: Speedy trial laws are very easy to get around. There are times excluded. It's really, I think, more of a strategic question than a legal question. And I think, you know, the defense lawyers will be pulled in two directions, because sometimes, you just always want to delay. Defendants never really want to rush to trial. But here, with the prosecutors so clearly reeling, it seems to me that the likely strategy is they'll just say, "Hey, you indicted him, you said you could go to trial, let's go and see what happens."
O'BRIEN: You know, this one is worth a couple thousand words by one Jeff Toobin of the New Yorker, because I'm very curious about where to point the fingers on this one. That courtroom was a mess. Was it the prosecution? Was it the judge? What happened?
TOOBIN: I think the prosecutors are the problem here. I think this case was inadequately investigated before it was indicted. If you look at the evidence that has come out about, you know, DNA that was on the accuser's body when she came to court, when she was examined following the rape exam, DNA that could not be associated with Kobe Bryant, I don't know how you indict a case at that point.
There was no hurry to indict him. Kobe Bryant wasn't going anywhere. I think if this case falls apart, the prosecutors are really going to have a lot to answer for. I don't blame the judge at all.
O'BRIEN: Up against the clock, Jeff Toobin, quick recess, thanks.
TOOBIN: Wait, one more point, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Yeah.
TOOBIN: Free Mike Wallace.
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WHITFIELD: Well, everyone knows that whole grain bread is healthier, even if some people don't like the taste.
O'BRIEN: Whole grain bread and meatloaf, if you're Mike Wallace, are one of the better...
WHITFIELD: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Just what you want for dinner. Free Mike Wallace, all right. Anyway...
WHITFIELD: Yes...
O'BRIEN: We're still buzzing over Jeff Toobin.
WHITFIELD: ... well, apparently, there's a new spin on this whole grain bread. And that's the segue we're trying to...
O'BRIEN: So I have digressed in an area you didn't want to go.
WHITFIELD: Well, you know...
O'BRIEN: But Rhonda Schaffler is always there to bail us out when we do this...
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