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Does Terror Watch List for Airports Work?; Tooth for an Eye
Aired August 20, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back from the CNN Center in Atlanta. This is LIVE FROM. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
On alert for terror since 9/11, but does the terror watch list for airports really work? We're going to talk about it straight ahead.
And a tooth for an eye, a medical procedure where doctors used parts of a woman's tooth to restore her sight. It's a pretty amazing story. You won't want to miss it.
Here's other news happening right now.
Conflicting reports from Iraq, an Iraqi interior ministry spokesman says Najaf police have taken over control of the Imam Ali mosque, but everyone else from the U.S. military to Shiite militants and Iraqi police deny that claim.
Global oil prices continue to set records. Violence in Iraq helps push the cost of crude oil to another fresh high, nearly $50 a barrel. Analysts say another concern is the growing demand for crude in fast developing India and China.
A pretrial hearing in the Michael Jackson case continues. Defense lawyers showed the judge a tape of last year's police raid on the Neverland Ranch, calling the search unjustified. The lead detective who directed the search is set to testify today.
And Attorney General John Ashcroft says, a Hamas leader and two suspected members have been indicted on racketeering charges. Two are already in custody; one is in Syria. Officials say they funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Palestinian militant group.
Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.
Terrorism and travel, the wait at airport security lines was much longer than expected for one of the nation's most recognizable lawmakers. Senator Ted Kennedy's name was actually on the government's secret, no-fly list.
That list was established after 9/11 to keep track of terror suspects. Well, Senator Kennedy spoke about his air travel troubles yesterday during a hearing on the September 11th commission's recommendations. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: And so I said, I've been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years, and why can't I get on the plane back to Boston -- back to Washington?
They said, you can't get on the plane back to Washington.
So my administrative assistant talked to the department of homeland security and they said there's some mistake. It happened three more times. And finally, Secretary Ridge called to apologize on it.
It happened even after he called to apologize because they couldn't -- my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines. And homeland security, he couldn't get my name off the list for a period of weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, critics of the no-fly list say that Senator Kennedy's experience shows the flaws in post-9/11 security measures. And to debate the issue, we're joined by CNN contributor and former congressman, Bob Barr, also Dan Flynn of Leadership Institute and author of "Why The Left Hate's America."
Dan, let's start with you and ask how did Ted Kennedy, how did his name even get on this list in the first place?
DAN FLYNN, "WWW.FLYNNFILES.COM": I have no idea, and obviously if someone recognized Ted Kennedy and wouldn't let him on the plane, we would have an issue here. But the fact of the matter is, in every instance that the senator cites, he was allowed on the plane. He was just checked.
You have security, obviously, after 9/11 to get on a plane. Even to come into CNN, I had to see three different security guards a get a photo ID. So why getting on a plane should require any less security than getting into CNN, I don't know -- you know, I don't why that should be the case.
And so...
PHILLIPS: But Dan, your name isn't on a CNN terror watch list.
FLYNN: It's not. But, you know, I've flown 100 times in the last year. And occasionally when I take one-way flights, I'm subjected to quite a bit of searches. And it's a bit inconvenient, but that's the reality of the world that we live in.
It may be a little bit ridiculous that someone as recognizable as Ted Kennedy was hassled, and it was an inconvenience for him. But that's the way the rest of us live, and I don't see why it should be any different for the senator.
PHILLIPS: All right. Bob, what's the problem here? Why was the senator's name even on this list? What does it tell us about the list and the information?
BOB BARR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it tells us that these lists are bad news. Large lists like this traditionally have an error rate of 20 to 25 percent, even well-maintained, commercial lists.
So, it's not surprising that Mr. Kennedy's name was on this list. Somebody apparently had used his name as an alias or a name similar to his. This points out a very serious defect.
And while some people like your other guest might not have any problem with this, the reality, as he explains it, is that our constitution really does not, has never and should not allow the government to stop somebody from exercising the constitutional right, the freedom to travel in this country based on some list that some braniac in some government agency has dreamed up that is obviously in error.
PHILLIPS: Now look, you've worked in politics, Bob. I mean, since 9/11, you would think they would have this pretty much figured out. I mean, this is a pretty big faux paus.
BARR: Well, it is. And it points out another very serious shortcoming of the world since 9/11. And that is that despite almost three years have gone by, in which time we've had every resource available to our government to get its act together, it still has not done so.
We still do not have, Kyra, a comprehensive, government-wide, up- to-date, verifiable list of terrorists and -- known terrorists. So what you have is you have this patchwork quilt of all these different commercial and government lists from different agencies, such as the one that Ted Kennedy ran afoul of, that people are interpreting differently.
It's a mish mash and it is very bad. This is when things fall between the cracks.
PHILLIPS: So Dan, do you think this list is effective? I mean, I'm curious to know how many people have gotten hassled for no reason, I mean, people like a Senator Ted Kennedy. And how many people have really been nabbed for possibly, you know, somebody that really would be a threat to the United States?
FLYNN: Probably quite a few people have been hassled, but I would argue that, you know, on 9/11 there were a number of victims that, you know, what happened to them was a bit more than being hassled.
We have implemented a number of security measures in this country that have made us safer. We have not had a major terrorist attack on this country since 9/11. One of the reasons for that is some of these security measures.
Maybe this no-fly list is one of them that's effective, maybe it's not. I don't know enough about it. But what I would say is that there -- stringent security measures are a fact of life in a post 9/11 world.
Ted Kennedy is in a position to change the law if he doesn't like it, but instead of, you know, changing the laws, changing the policies, he's just sort of complaining about his own treatment, which is, I think, a little bit -- a little bit silly.
PHILLIPS: Well, you know, you've got Ted Kennedy, as a senator, it would be easy, I would assume, to get off the list and be able to get on the plane. What about your average traveler? I mean, isn't it a nightmare to get off this list? I mean, can you even get off this list?
FLYNN: I don't know. I mean, I'm sure that once you explain that you're not the person in question, you'd probably be allowed to fly. Again, I've been hassled a lot of...
BARR: The problem, Dan, is that you can't get off these lists. Even in Mr. Kennedy's case, one of the most recognizable names in this country -- or faces -- if not in the world, he said that he talked with these people at the gates. And they told him, I don't care. We don't care. Your name is on this list and that it.
So he had to keep going higher and higher, eventually to the secretary, himself, in order to...
PHILLIPS: He finally called Tom Ridge and said, hey, get me off this list.
BARR: Yes.
FLYNN: But he got on the plane.
BARR: So, the problem is for the average Joe traveling public, they don't have that available to them. And there are cases after cases after cases of people, and it's not just been hassled, it's people's rights being taken away.
PHILLIPS: And Dan, you'd think you'd want more focus on getting explosives -- preventing explosives and knives and guns getting on the plane versus a no-fly list. It seems that would be more effective to put the resources into that.
FLYNN: Well, I think they're both effective. I think the bottom line with this case is that Ted Kennedy flew in every instance. He got on the plane.
If you were on a no-fly list, why was he flying afterward? He flew, so what's the big controversy here?
If someone is not being allowed to fly because they share a name with some sort of terrorist and they continue to prevent that person from flying, that's obviously an injustice that needs to be corrected. But the idea that...
BARR: But it also, Dan, it points out that very clearly that, even you'd have to agree, these lists are bad. And this is really bothersome three years after 9/11 that we're operating with bad lists.
FLYNN: I wish Mohamed Atta was on one, were on one of those lists. I wish all of the...
BARR: Well, he was on some of the lists, and those lists didn't get into the hands of the people. And that's what we ought to be concentrating on, better coordination of these lists, not stopping a U.S. senator from getting on a plane.
FLYNN: I agree with you. But what you seem to be suggesting is that we should have none of these lists at all which is, I think, ludicrous in light of what happened on 9/11 and in light of the current security threat we have.
BARR: I have already said what we ought to be concentrating on is developing one, comprehensive, up-to-date list, which we still don't have.
PHILLIPS: Well, I can tell you what will be happening now. I bet Senator Kennedy is going to be working on some type of legislation.
Dan Flynn, Bob Barr, gentlemen, thank you very much -- Fred?
WHITFIELD: All right. Now to a scandal that refuses to go away. The Pentagon denies allegations that doctors were involved in abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.
The claims are made by the prestigious British medical journal "The Lancet, and a leading bioethicist.
Sean Callebs joins us now with the latest on the prisoner abuse fallout -- Sean?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Fredricka, the Pentagon is denying the allegations in the editorial in the leading British medical journal. The article was penned, as you said, by the leading ethicist, Steven Miles.
And the Pentagon says, basically, all of Miles information really came from either cold information, from information that had come from Capitol Hill testimony, or from media reports and really no firsthand investigative work or firsthand accounts.
Miles said that some U.S. medical staffers -- and he includes some doctors and nurses -- turned a blind eye to torture. But he goes on to say that some were even either, were more complicit in their actions.
In particular, Miles goes through some specific instances including one where a medic allegedly inserted a catheter into the body of a dead prisoner, who apparently died under torture, to "create the evidence the prisoner was alive at the hospital."
Meanwhile, another Iraqi man taken into custody by U.S. forces was found comatose at a hospital several months later by his family. The man had skull fractures, a severely broken thumb and burns to the bottom of his feet. The U.S. medical record says only he suffered heat stroke which led to the coma.
And he recounts one more instance where an Iraqi general was pushed into a sleeping bag while interrogators sat on his chest. The surgeon says the general died of natural causes. The final death certificate that came from the Pentagon some time later said it was death by asphyxia and is being investigated as a homicide.
Now Miles goes on to write that a number of medical officers and medical personnel at Abu Ghraib, some of the 70, knew of these abuses going on but did nothing to notify superiors until a formal investigation was launched in January.
The defense department says it is investigating all circumstances surrounding the detainees' conditions at that notorious prison just outside of Baghdad. And right now they say they are unaware of any instance where a medical personnel denied any treatment to any of the detainees.
Timing is simply not good for the U.S. military. This, once again, puts the Abu Ghraib situation back out in the public forum in an international forum. And it's also frustrating for the military.
They say that their medical staff has saved the lives of dozens if not hundreds of insurgents, basically enemy. And they go on to say that at any given time about 50 percent of the beds in a field hospital are taken up by either insurgents or Iraqi citizens -- Fred?
WHITFIELD: All right, Sean Callebs Washington, thanks so much.
Well, the U.N. is now warning that more Sudanese refugees could soon be fleeing. CNN's Jeff Koinange joins us next with what he is seeing first hand in that region.
And a woman who was blind for almost 30 years can suddenly see because of what doctors took out of her mouth.
And a reminder, we're taking your e-mails on the Swift Boat Veterans controversy. Will these anti-Kerry ads influence your vote?
E-mail us at livefrom@cnn.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Well, it is regarded as the worst humanitarian crisis in the world. Now there are fears the situation in Sudan could worsen.
U.N. officials are worried that more people in the embattled Darfur region may cross the border into Chad. And that, in turn, could place major strains on an already stretched relief effort.
CNN's Jeff Koinange has been covering the crisis, and he's here with us now after seeing first hand the devastation there. It really is of epidemic proportions. Let's talk about the refugee camps over the border that are in place for these some 180,000 Sudanese refugees who have hopefully tried to find some safe haven. Is it a safe haven?
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is not, and we cannot emphasize this enough.
What they're doing, they've been streaming across the border in the tens of thousands, and there are more still coming. So what the Chadian government says is, we can't contain these people. What are we going to do with them? In fact, there are incidents where soldiers actually shoot at them to send them back into the trouble zones.
WHITFIELD: On the Chad side of the border?
KOINANGE: On the Chadian side, and that's why U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan was there at the site. He actually went into Chad, spoke to the government. He said, let them in for awhile until we can contain this crisis.
WHITFIELD: They don't want the problem, so to speak, because we're already dealing with malnutrition of huge proportions there, and it's not necessarily a safe haven because a number of these women and, you know, children are complainant. They're not getting proper food. They're not getting water. They're not feeling safe.
KOINANGE: And imagine now, it's a rainy season, so it's not just the food issue, it's diseases -- cholera, malaria, dysentery. You name it, it is there on the ground, and they're suffering and dying by the numbers.
What the health agencies are doing, they are literally weighing the babies. Putting the strand around their wrist in different colors, green, orange, red -- red being critical. If the baby turns up with a red sign, boom, they just leave it aside.
WHITFIELD: So they are making a determination that this child is not likely to survive, so therefore we're not going to give it the kind of aid.
KOINANGE: That's it, plain and simple.
WHITFIELD: Wow.
KOINANGE: It's that course.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
KOINANGE: It is that callous. And moving on to the next. They don't have the resources. They don't have enough medicines. And again, being the rainy season, those food drops that you see, the planes cannot land on the ground because the ground is too soft.
So what they do is the just drop them from the air, let them land on the ground. Half of them are wasted by the landing. People have to rush out there, sweep in the foodstuffs, salvage what they can, and then it's distributed.
WHITFIELD: It's a huge problem, but this is really the consequence of another huge issue, the Janjaweed militia, who are responsible for this in Sudan.
Let's talk about what is really at the core here? This is a type of ethnic cleansing, so to speak. This is an effort for the Janjaweed to try to create a lighter-skinned Sudanese, isn't it? Eliminate the black Sudanese?
KOINANGE: That's exactly what they're doing. Now, let's go back one step.
During the civil war that lasted 22 years between the north and south, they signed a cease-fire, right?
WHITFIELD: Yes.
KOINANGE: When they signed that cease-fire sharing oil wealth, sharing power and everything, the west, there were rebels in the west saying, hey, we want to be a part of this. Why are you leaving us out?
The government ignored them. They started attacking government units and the government said, oh, is that what you're doing? We'll send in the Janjaweed, the so-called nomadic herdsmen.
They sent them in, armed them, gave them money, gave them everything, and what they did, they came and systematically, village after village, raising, raping, killing, looting, you name it.
WHITFIELD: But they are minority. And now there's pressure on the Sudanese government, why aren't you doing something? How is it that the Janjaweed are so empowered? What is the answer?
KOINANGE: Two reasons, one, they've got the guns; they've got the firepower against what? Helpless villagers.
Two, this is an area the size of Texas, Darfur area alone. So, how do you police these people? How do you remove the arms from them? How do you contain them? You can't do it. They don't -- they certainly cannot do it.
And then on top of that, the government is afraid that Janjaweed might turn around and start attacking them.
WHITFIELD: Wow.
KOINANGE: They have created this monster, and they cannot contain it.
WHITFIELD: So, you'd think there would be some hope next week with a meeting in Nigeria of Sudanese government and rebel foes, but you're saying really, don't be too hopeful?
KOINANGE: No, don't hold you're breath. WHITFIELD: OK.
KOINANGE: Because there's a meeting that was scheduled about three weeks ago, the rebels didn't show up. And that meeting was canceled and postponed.
WHITFIELD: And that could happen again?
KOINANGE: Could very well happen again.
WHITFIELD: All right, Jeff Koinange, thanks so much for keeping us abreast of this. I know you're going to try to get back to that region to show us, again, what's taking place.
KOINANGE: Yes, indeed.
WHITFIELD: Thanks so much.
KOINANGE: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Kyra?
PHILLIPS: You've heard the expression an eye for an eye, next the amazing story of a tooth for an eye. It brought back one woman's sight.
Red carpet queen Joan Rivers jokes about plastic surgery, but TV producers are taking her seriously. Find out in today's "Entertainment Buzz."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: A British woman blind for nearly 30 years is getting her first-ever glimpse of her young grandchildren thanks to a dramatic new medical procedure.
The revolutionary surgery can help improve the vision of some blind patients by using part of a tooth.
Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain. We've all been talking about this story.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's incredible. It's incredible. People get cornea transplants all the time, but usually the corneas come from cadavers. That's the normal place to get them.
But this woman decided to get one from a tooth. It's because she was not a candidate for a regular cornea transplant from a cadaver. So here she is. She was blind at age, became blind at age 15 and has been blind ever since, now has grandchildren.
And what the doctors did was they took a part of her tooth. They shaved it down to a very, very small, very thin rectangle and put a hole in the middle of it so that she could see through it. And that replaced her cornea, which is the clear covering over the eye. And now she says that she is thrilled to see her grandchildren for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDITH SMITH, EYE-TOOTH SURGERY PATIENT: The oldest one's are four, and I've never, ever seen. I was at the births. And I've never ever seen them until the other day when they came to see me.
It was -- it was fantastic. I just sat and cried. It was just overwhelming. Words just can't explain, you know, what it meant to me. And to be able to, like, see the flowers and the grass and things like that. It's just absolutely fantastic. It's amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: Now, the hope is that because this comes from her own body, that her body won't reject this tooth. But there still is the chance that it could be rejected.
We were talking to some doctors who were not involved in this and they said, you know, it's a good thing that she's a little older. They said, you wouldn't want to try this in someone who is younger because it might not last that long. And once you've done this, you can't do another kind of transplant on top of it.
PHILLIPS: It's got to be hard and kind of uncomfortable, and you constantly feel like you have something stuck in your eye.
COHEN: Well, you know what? It's not. It doesn't even feel like a contact lens from what we've been told, and that's because they don't use the outside hard part of the tooth. They use the inside of the tooth that you never see.
It's actually quite porous. And so, it's put into her body. He body actually had a chance to get used to it before they actually allowed it to be used for her vision.
So her body got used to it. Parts of her body actually kind of seeped into it a bit because it was porous. It was kind of like a sponge. So, they used the softer part.
PHILLIPS: And how well can she see? I mean, is it kind of blurry, is it pretty clear?
COHEN: It's not completely perfect vision, no.
PHILLIPS: OK.
COHEN: It's not completely perfect vision.
PHILLIPS: So, how common is this? Is everybody going to start doing this?
COHEN: No, this is very unusual.
PHILLIPS: OK.
COHEN: This was pioneered in Italy. It's used in England. It is not used in the United States. And I have to say, when we asked American doctors about this, they said there are other ways to do it. If you can't use a cornea from a cadaver, you could try to use a completely synthetic cornea.
Now, in this country there are about 40,000 corneal transplants a year. Those are from cadavers, again. And that's because of some kind of atrophy or perhaps a previous surgery. There was some kind of an injury. It has a 90 percent success rate.
Now artificial corneas are much less commonly done. And those are, again, rarely performed because of some kind of chemical burn or an allergic reaction made the person ineligible for a regular cadaver cornea transplant.
And this eye-tooth one, I mean, it's a handful in Italy and England, very unusual.
PHILLIPS: It's a very incredible story. Thanks, Elizabeth.
COHEN: Thanks.
WHITFIELD: It's a remarkable story of science, medical science.
All right. Let's check in with somebody else who is rather remarkable in our view, Rhonda Schaffler.
PHILLIPS: In a financial way.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SR. BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That was awfully kind of you, and I feel the same.
And you know what, it might be a remarkable week on Wall Street. Stocks might actually close higher. They're on track to do that at the moment.
One reason stocks were getting a lift this afternoon, oil prices retreating from record highs. So that's sending stocks higher.
Dow is up 64 points. Nasdaq up close to 1 percent.
That's it from Wall Street. LIVE FROM continues right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Now in the news, control of a holy shrine in Najaf. Fighters loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr say they'll leave just as soon as another religious delegation gets there. That group has reportedly been told to get the keys, show the rebels the door and lock it -- a live report coming up. Suspected of financing terror, Attorney General John Ashcroft today announced indictments in an alleged Hamas money laundering scheme here in the U.S.
Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chief of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus was charged. Muhammad Hamid Kalil Salah and another suspect were taken into custody in the U.S.
Edging down a bit from record highs, but maybe not for long, oil prices react to events in Iraq. We're going to go live to New York Stock Exchange for the latest numbers.
Up first this hour, the key to a peaceful resolution in Najaf. Literally, it unlocks the doors of the Iraqi city's Imam Ali mosque.
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Aired August 20, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back from the CNN Center in Atlanta. This is LIVE FROM. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
On alert for terror since 9/11, but does the terror watch list for airports really work? We're going to talk about it straight ahead.
And a tooth for an eye, a medical procedure where doctors used parts of a woman's tooth to restore her sight. It's a pretty amazing story. You won't want to miss it.
Here's other news happening right now.
Conflicting reports from Iraq, an Iraqi interior ministry spokesman says Najaf police have taken over control of the Imam Ali mosque, but everyone else from the U.S. military to Shiite militants and Iraqi police deny that claim.
Global oil prices continue to set records. Violence in Iraq helps push the cost of crude oil to another fresh high, nearly $50 a barrel. Analysts say another concern is the growing demand for crude in fast developing India and China.
A pretrial hearing in the Michael Jackson case continues. Defense lawyers showed the judge a tape of last year's police raid on the Neverland Ranch, calling the search unjustified. The lead detective who directed the search is set to testify today.
And Attorney General John Ashcroft says, a Hamas leader and two suspected members have been indicted on racketeering charges. Two are already in custody; one is in Syria. Officials say they funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Palestinian militant group.
Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.
Terrorism and travel, the wait at airport security lines was much longer than expected for one of the nation's most recognizable lawmakers. Senator Ted Kennedy's name was actually on the government's secret, no-fly list.
That list was established after 9/11 to keep track of terror suspects. Well, Senator Kennedy spoke about his air travel troubles yesterday during a hearing on the September 11th commission's recommendations. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: And so I said, I've been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years, and why can't I get on the plane back to Boston -- back to Washington?
They said, you can't get on the plane back to Washington.
So my administrative assistant talked to the department of homeland security and they said there's some mistake. It happened three more times. And finally, Secretary Ridge called to apologize on it.
It happened even after he called to apologize because they couldn't -- my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines. And homeland security, he couldn't get my name off the list for a period of weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, critics of the no-fly list say that Senator Kennedy's experience shows the flaws in post-9/11 security measures. And to debate the issue, we're joined by CNN contributor and former congressman, Bob Barr, also Dan Flynn of Leadership Institute and author of "Why The Left Hate's America."
Dan, let's start with you and ask how did Ted Kennedy, how did his name even get on this list in the first place?
DAN FLYNN, "WWW.FLYNNFILES.COM": I have no idea, and obviously if someone recognized Ted Kennedy and wouldn't let him on the plane, we would have an issue here. But the fact of the matter is, in every instance that the senator cites, he was allowed on the plane. He was just checked.
You have security, obviously, after 9/11 to get on a plane. Even to come into CNN, I had to see three different security guards a get a photo ID. So why getting on a plane should require any less security than getting into CNN, I don't know -- you know, I don't why that should be the case.
And so...
PHILLIPS: But Dan, your name isn't on a CNN terror watch list.
FLYNN: It's not. But, you know, I've flown 100 times in the last year. And occasionally when I take one-way flights, I'm subjected to quite a bit of searches. And it's a bit inconvenient, but that's the reality of the world that we live in.
It may be a little bit ridiculous that someone as recognizable as Ted Kennedy was hassled, and it was an inconvenience for him. But that's the way the rest of us live, and I don't see why it should be any different for the senator.
PHILLIPS: All right. Bob, what's the problem here? Why was the senator's name even on this list? What does it tell us about the list and the information?
BOB BARR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it tells us that these lists are bad news. Large lists like this traditionally have an error rate of 20 to 25 percent, even well-maintained, commercial lists.
So, it's not surprising that Mr. Kennedy's name was on this list. Somebody apparently had used his name as an alias or a name similar to his. This points out a very serious defect.
And while some people like your other guest might not have any problem with this, the reality, as he explains it, is that our constitution really does not, has never and should not allow the government to stop somebody from exercising the constitutional right, the freedom to travel in this country based on some list that some braniac in some government agency has dreamed up that is obviously in error.
PHILLIPS: Now look, you've worked in politics, Bob. I mean, since 9/11, you would think they would have this pretty much figured out. I mean, this is a pretty big faux paus.
BARR: Well, it is. And it points out another very serious shortcoming of the world since 9/11. And that is that despite almost three years have gone by, in which time we've had every resource available to our government to get its act together, it still has not done so.
We still do not have, Kyra, a comprehensive, government-wide, up- to-date, verifiable list of terrorists and -- known terrorists. So what you have is you have this patchwork quilt of all these different commercial and government lists from different agencies, such as the one that Ted Kennedy ran afoul of, that people are interpreting differently.
It's a mish mash and it is very bad. This is when things fall between the cracks.
PHILLIPS: So Dan, do you think this list is effective? I mean, I'm curious to know how many people have gotten hassled for no reason, I mean, people like a Senator Ted Kennedy. And how many people have really been nabbed for possibly, you know, somebody that really would be a threat to the United States?
FLYNN: Probably quite a few people have been hassled, but I would argue that, you know, on 9/11 there were a number of victims that, you know, what happened to them was a bit more than being hassled.
We have implemented a number of security measures in this country that have made us safer. We have not had a major terrorist attack on this country since 9/11. One of the reasons for that is some of these security measures.
Maybe this no-fly list is one of them that's effective, maybe it's not. I don't know enough about it. But what I would say is that there -- stringent security measures are a fact of life in a post 9/11 world.
Ted Kennedy is in a position to change the law if he doesn't like it, but instead of, you know, changing the laws, changing the policies, he's just sort of complaining about his own treatment, which is, I think, a little bit -- a little bit silly.
PHILLIPS: Well, you know, you've got Ted Kennedy, as a senator, it would be easy, I would assume, to get off the list and be able to get on the plane. What about your average traveler? I mean, isn't it a nightmare to get off this list? I mean, can you even get off this list?
FLYNN: I don't know. I mean, I'm sure that once you explain that you're not the person in question, you'd probably be allowed to fly. Again, I've been hassled a lot of...
BARR: The problem, Dan, is that you can't get off these lists. Even in Mr. Kennedy's case, one of the most recognizable names in this country -- or faces -- if not in the world, he said that he talked with these people at the gates. And they told him, I don't care. We don't care. Your name is on this list and that it.
So he had to keep going higher and higher, eventually to the secretary, himself, in order to...
PHILLIPS: He finally called Tom Ridge and said, hey, get me off this list.
BARR: Yes.
FLYNN: But he got on the plane.
BARR: So, the problem is for the average Joe traveling public, they don't have that available to them. And there are cases after cases after cases of people, and it's not just been hassled, it's people's rights being taken away.
PHILLIPS: And Dan, you'd think you'd want more focus on getting explosives -- preventing explosives and knives and guns getting on the plane versus a no-fly list. It seems that would be more effective to put the resources into that.
FLYNN: Well, I think they're both effective. I think the bottom line with this case is that Ted Kennedy flew in every instance. He got on the plane.
If you were on a no-fly list, why was he flying afterward? He flew, so what's the big controversy here?
If someone is not being allowed to fly because they share a name with some sort of terrorist and they continue to prevent that person from flying, that's obviously an injustice that needs to be corrected. But the idea that...
BARR: But it also, Dan, it points out that very clearly that, even you'd have to agree, these lists are bad. And this is really bothersome three years after 9/11 that we're operating with bad lists.
FLYNN: I wish Mohamed Atta was on one, were on one of those lists. I wish all of the...
BARR: Well, he was on some of the lists, and those lists didn't get into the hands of the people. And that's what we ought to be concentrating on, better coordination of these lists, not stopping a U.S. senator from getting on a plane.
FLYNN: I agree with you. But what you seem to be suggesting is that we should have none of these lists at all which is, I think, ludicrous in light of what happened on 9/11 and in light of the current security threat we have.
BARR: I have already said what we ought to be concentrating on is developing one, comprehensive, up-to-date list, which we still don't have.
PHILLIPS: Well, I can tell you what will be happening now. I bet Senator Kennedy is going to be working on some type of legislation.
Dan Flynn, Bob Barr, gentlemen, thank you very much -- Fred?
WHITFIELD: All right. Now to a scandal that refuses to go away. The Pentagon denies allegations that doctors were involved in abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.
The claims are made by the prestigious British medical journal "The Lancet, and a leading bioethicist.
Sean Callebs joins us now with the latest on the prisoner abuse fallout -- Sean?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Fredricka, the Pentagon is denying the allegations in the editorial in the leading British medical journal. The article was penned, as you said, by the leading ethicist, Steven Miles.
And the Pentagon says, basically, all of Miles information really came from either cold information, from information that had come from Capitol Hill testimony, or from media reports and really no firsthand investigative work or firsthand accounts.
Miles said that some U.S. medical staffers -- and he includes some doctors and nurses -- turned a blind eye to torture. But he goes on to say that some were even either, were more complicit in their actions.
In particular, Miles goes through some specific instances including one where a medic allegedly inserted a catheter into the body of a dead prisoner, who apparently died under torture, to "create the evidence the prisoner was alive at the hospital."
Meanwhile, another Iraqi man taken into custody by U.S. forces was found comatose at a hospital several months later by his family. The man had skull fractures, a severely broken thumb and burns to the bottom of his feet. The U.S. medical record says only he suffered heat stroke which led to the coma.
And he recounts one more instance where an Iraqi general was pushed into a sleeping bag while interrogators sat on his chest. The surgeon says the general died of natural causes. The final death certificate that came from the Pentagon some time later said it was death by asphyxia and is being investigated as a homicide.
Now Miles goes on to write that a number of medical officers and medical personnel at Abu Ghraib, some of the 70, knew of these abuses going on but did nothing to notify superiors until a formal investigation was launched in January.
The defense department says it is investigating all circumstances surrounding the detainees' conditions at that notorious prison just outside of Baghdad. And right now they say they are unaware of any instance where a medical personnel denied any treatment to any of the detainees.
Timing is simply not good for the U.S. military. This, once again, puts the Abu Ghraib situation back out in the public forum in an international forum. And it's also frustrating for the military.
They say that their medical staff has saved the lives of dozens if not hundreds of insurgents, basically enemy. And they go on to say that at any given time about 50 percent of the beds in a field hospital are taken up by either insurgents or Iraqi citizens -- Fred?
WHITFIELD: All right, Sean Callebs Washington, thanks so much.
Well, the U.N. is now warning that more Sudanese refugees could soon be fleeing. CNN's Jeff Koinange joins us next with what he is seeing first hand in that region.
And a woman who was blind for almost 30 years can suddenly see because of what doctors took out of her mouth.
And a reminder, we're taking your e-mails on the Swift Boat Veterans controversy. Will these anti-Kerry ads influence your vote?
E-mail us at livefrom@cnn.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Well, it is regarded as the worst humanitarian crisis in the world. Now there are fears the situation in Sudan could worsen.
U.N. officials are worried that more people in the embattled Darfur region may cross the border into Chad. And that, in turn, could place major strains on an already stretched relief effort.
CNN's Jeff Koinange has been covering the crisis, and he's here with us now after seeing first hand the devastation there. It really is of epidemic proportions. Let's talk about the refugee camps over the border that are in place for these some 180,000 Sudanese refugees who have hopefully tried to find some safe haven. Is it a safe haven?
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is not, and we cannot emphasize this enough.
What they're doing, they've been streaming across the border in the tens of thousands, and there are more still coming. So what the Chadian government says is, we can't contain these people. What are we going to do with them? In fact, there are incidents where soldiers actually shoot at them to send them back into the trouble zones.
WHITFIELD: On the Chad side of the border?
KOINANGE: On the Chadian side, and that's why U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan was there at the site. He actually went into Chad, spoke to the government. He said, let them in for awhile until we can contain this crisis.
WHITFIELD: They don't want the problem, so to speak, because we're already dealing with malnutrition of huge proportions there, and it's not necessarily a safe haven because a number of these women and, you know, children are complainant. They're not getting proper food. They're not getting water. They're not feeling safe.
KOINANGE: And imagine now, it's a rainy season, so it's not just the food issue, it's diseases -- cholera, malaria, dysentery. You name it, it is there on the ground, and they're suffering and dying by the numbers.
What the health agencies are doing, they are literally weighing the babies. Putting the strand around their wrist in different colors, green, orange, red -- red being critical. If the baby turns up with a red sign, boom, they just leave it aside.
WHITFIELD: So they are making a determination that this child is not likely to survive, so therefore we're not going to give it the kind of aid.
KOINANGE: That's it, plain and simple.
WHITFIELD: Wow.
KOINANGE: It's that course.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
KOINANGE: It is that callous. And moving on to the next. They don't have the resources. They don't have enough medicines. And again, being the rainy season, those food drops that you see, the planes cannot land on the ground because the ground is too soft.
So what they do is the just drop them from the air, let them land on the ground. Half of them are wasted by the landing. People have to rush out there, sweep in the foodstuffs, salvage what they can, and then it's distributed.
WHITFIELD: It's a huge problem, but this is really the consequence of another huge issue, the Janjaweed militia, who are responsible for this in Sudan.
Let's talk about what is really at the core here? This is a type of ethnic cleansing, so to speak. This is an effort for the Janjaweed to try to create a lighter-skinned Sudanese, isn't it? Eliminate the black Sudanese?
KOINANGE: That's exactly what they're doing. Now, let's go back one step.
During the civil war that lasted 22 years between the north and south, they signed a cease-fire, right?
WHITFIELD: Yes.
KOINANGE: When they signed that cease-fire sharing oil wealth, sharing power and everything, the west, there were rebels in the west saying, hey, we want to be a part of this. Why are you leaving us out?
The government ignored them. They started attacking government units and the government said, oh, is that what you're doing? We'll send in the Janjaweed, the so-called nomadic herdsmen.
They sent them in, armed them, gave them money, gave them everything, and what they did, they came and systematically, village after village, raising, raping, killing, looting, you name it.
WHITFIELD: But they are minority. And now there's pressure on the Sudanese government, why aren't you doing something? How is it that the Janjaweed are so empowered? What is the answer?
KOINANGE: Two reasons, one, they've got the guns; they've got the firepower against what? Helpless villagers.
Two, this is an area the size of Texas, Darfur area alone. So, how do you police these people? How do you remove the arms from them? How do you contain them? You can't do it. They don't -- they certainly cannot do it.
And then on top of that, the government is afraid that Janjaweed might turn around and start attacking them.
WHITFIELD: Wow.
KOINANGE: They have created this monster, and they cannot contain it.
WHITFIELD: So, you'd think there would be some hope next week with a meeting in Nigeria of Sudanese government and rebel foes, but you're saying really, don't be too hopeful?
KOINANGE: No, don't hold you're breath. WHITFIELD: OK.
KOINANGE: Because there's a meeting that was scheduled about three weeks ago, the rebels didn't show up. And that meeting was canceled and postponed.
WHITFIELD: And that could happen again?
KOINANGE: Could very well happen again.
WHITFIELD: All right, Jeff Koinange, thanks so much for keeping us abreast of this. I know you're going to try to get back to that region to show us, again, what's taking place.
KOINANGE: Yes, indeed.
WHITFIELD: Thanks so much.
KOINANGE: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Kyra?
PHILLIPS: You've heard the expression an eye for an eye, next the amazing story of a tooth for an eye. It brought back one woman's sight.
Red carpet queen Joan Rivers jokes about plastic surgery, but TV producers are taking her seriously. Find out in today's "Entertainment Buzz."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: A British woman blind for nearly 30 years is getting her first-ever glimpse of her young grandchildren thanks to a dramatic new medical procedure.
The revolutionary surgery can help improve the vision of some blind patients by using part of a tooth.
Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain. We've all been talking about this story.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's incredible. It's incredible. People get cornea transplants all the time, but usually the corneas come from cadavers. That's the normal place to get them.
But this woman decided to get one from a tooth. It's because she was not a candidate for a regular cornea transplant from a cadaver. So here she is. She was blind at age, became blind at age 15 and has been blind ever since, now has grandchildren.
And what the doctors did was they took a part of her tooth. They shaved it down to a very, very small, very thin rectangle and put a hole in the middle of it so that she could see through it. And that replaced her cornea, which is the clear covering over the eye. And now she says that she is thrilled to see her grandchildren for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDITH SMITH, EYE-TOOTH SURGERY PATIENT: The oldest one's are four, and I've never, ever seen. I was at the births. And I've never ever seen them until the other day when they came to see me.
It was -- it was fantastic. I just sat and cried. It was just overwhelming. Words just can't explain, you know, what it meant to me. And to be able to, like, see the flowers and the grass and things like that. It's just absolutely fantastic. It's amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: Now, the hope is that because this comes from her own body, that her body won't reject this tooth. But there still is the chance that it could be rejected.
We were talking to some doctors who were not involved in this and they said, you know, it's a good thing that she's a little older. They said, you wouldn't want to try this in someone who is younger because it might not last that long. And once you've done this, you can't do another kind of transplant on top of it.
PHILLIPS: It's got to be hard and kind of uncomfortable, and you constantly feel like you have something stuck in your eye.
COHEN: Well, you know what? It's not. It doesn't even feel like a contact lens from what we've been told, and that's because they don't use the outside hard part of the tooth. They use the inside of the tooth that you never see.
It's actually quite porous. And so, it's put into her body. He body actually had a chance to get used to it before they actually allowed it to be used for her vision.
So her body got used to it. Parts of her body actually kind of seeped into it a bit because it was porous. It was kind of like a sponge. So, they used the softer part.
PHILLIPS: And how well can she see? I mean, is it kind of blurry, is it pretty clear?
COHEN: It's not completely perfect vision, no.
PHILLIPS: OK.
COHEN: It's not completely perfect vision.
PHILLIPS: So, how common is this? Is everybody going to start doing this?
COHEN: No, this is very unusual.
PHILLIPS: OK.
COHEN: This was pioneered in Italy. It's used in England. It is not used in the United States. And I have to say, when we asked American doctors about this, they said there are other ways to do it. If you can't use a cornea from a cadaver, you could try to use a completely synthetic cornea.
Now, in this country there are about 40,000 corneal transplants a year. Those are from cadavers, again. And that's because of some kind of atrophy or perhaps a previous surgery. There was some kind of an injury. It has a 90 percent success rate.
Now artificial corneas are much less commonly done. And those are, again, rarely performed because of some kind of chemical burn or an allergic reaction made the person ineligible for a regular cadaver cornea transplant.
And this eye-tooth one, I mean, it's a handful in Italy and England, very unusual.
PHILLIPS: It's a very incredible story. Thanks, Elizabeth.
COHEN: Thanks.
WHITFIELD: It's a remarkable story of science, medical science.
All right. Let's check in with somebody else who is rather remarkable in our view, Rhonda Schaffler.
PHILLIPS: In a financial way.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SR. BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That was awfully kind of you, and I feel the same.
And you know what, it might be a remarkable week on Wall Street. Stocks might actually close higher. They're on track to do that at the moment.
One reason stocks were getting a lift this afternoon, oil prices retreating from record highs. So that's sending stocks higher.
Dow is up 64 points. Nasdaq up close to 1 percent.
That's it from Wall Street. LIVE FROM continues right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Now in the news, control of a holy shrine in Najaf. Fighters loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr say they'll leave just as soon as another religious delegation gets there. That group has reportedly been told to get the keys, show the rebels the door and lock it -- a live report coming up. Suspected of financing terror, Attorney General John Ashcroft today announced indictments in an alleged Hamas money laundering scheme here in the U.S.
Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chief of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus was charged. Muhammad Hamid Kalil Salah and another suspect were taken into custody in the U.S.
Edging down a bit from record highs, but maybe not for long, oil prices react to events in Iraq. We're going to go live to New York Stock Exchange for the latest numbers.
Up first this hour, the key to a peaceful resolution in Najaf. Literally, it unlocks the doors of the Iraqi city's Imam Ali mosque.
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