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Schlesinger Commission Briefs Reporters; Accused MP Makes Deal With Prosecutors in Germany; High Art and Theft
Aired August 24, 2004 - 13:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to have new developments in just a moment. We're monitoring this live press conference.
Meanwhile, we -- as we wait for the so-called Schlesinger Commission to brief reporters at the Pentagon, let's bring in our military intelligence analyst, Ken Robinson, for some insight.
As we wait for it to begin, Ken, let's talk about what we expect to hear. You've been talking about policy versus men behaving badly.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, the -- this board, which is made up of primary principal members of the Defense Planning Board, who oversee a lot of issues regarding the Pentagon, have been chosen specifically because of their ability to look up the entire chain of command, past -- central command, up into the civilian leadership of the office of the secretary of defense.
So, the thing that they've been searching for is to try to understand and differentiate between behavior and misconduct versus policy, which may not have been properly articulated or may have been inappropriate.
PHILLIPS: And of course, we've talked a lot about the gray areas. We've talked about the gray areas well before this commission even came together, Ken. Let's address those when talking about how soldiers should be treated versus foreign fighters.
ROBINSON: Well, it's known that in Afghanistan the United States government and a coalition was fighting against enemy combatants, a terrorist organization. They were not fighting the nation state. They were fighting al Qaeda.
Then those prisoners were sent to Guantanamo Bay, where they were deemed to be enemy combatants. And so, what was said at the time was that the policy was that the Geneva Convention did not apply, but the spirit of the Geneva Convention would be utilized as a guidepost as they try to extract combat information to be able to prevent or deter future attacks.
PHILLIPS: And...
ROBINSON: Then...
PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Ken. I'm sorry.
ROBINSON: Then we went into Iraq, where we were going against -- the United States government was going against a nation state governed by the laws of land warfare and the Geneva Convention. And so, the questions of ambiguity arise between the differentiation between what type prisoners you're holding. Because, in Iraq, they are also dealing with foreign fighters who are not part of an army.
PHILLIPS: Sure. And the philosophy is you treat a soldier, a schooled soldier, a disciplined soldier different than you would a foreign fighter, correct? And so, then you have these pictures come out, and is this pretty much the basis of where you think this report might be centered in that it might be OK to treat a foreign fighter differently from a disciplined soldier?
ROBINSON: Well, we need to differentiate clearly between behavior which truly borders or is torture, and that which you would use to extract information from someone who is an enemy combatant. There's no one who will stand up and justify anything that's been seen in those photographs. The issue will be who knew that that was occurring and was it a policy. And if it was a policy, and what level did that policy start, and who approved it?
PHILLIPS: So, in no way those pictures will be justified no matter how it's looked at. Whatever policy was implemented was wrong?
ROBINSON: In my opinion.
PHILLIPS: OK. Well, you've had the background of dealing with special forces. You've had to be in those areas and actually seen those prisons. I mean, have you ever seen photos like that in your experience?
ROBINSON: No. The -- you know, if you had asked me prior to those photos being released whether something like that was even possible, I would have sat right here on the air and argued that it wasn't. It clearly was a series of cascading faults, of sins of omission on the part of some leaders at certain levels and commission on the part of people who had responsibility for the care of those prisoners.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about that responsibility. We want to remind our viewers also that you're looking at live pictures now from DOD's new Department of Defense, waiting for Donald Rumsfeld, among others, to come out, commission members, on the this investigation that was done into what took place at Abu Ghraib, the prison, as you know.
We have seen the pictures. We have seen the allegations of torture of Iraqi prisoners there by U.S. military.
Ken, let's talk about -- you talk about the leadership rolls. Janis Karpinski, the woman that was in charge of this prison, how big is this factor in the overall picture? Obviously, there is going to be a lot of talk about policy and what went wrong policy-wise. But what about this woman, who was supposed to know about everything that was going on in that prison?
ROBINSON: Well, this is going to be one of the main faults about the chain of command. The -- there are some who say that Lieutenant General Sanchez should have been more involved in the day-to-day operations at the prison and should have been aware of abuses which were taking place. But he has two executive agents who are responsible for that.
One is the military police brigade commander -- in this case, Brigadier General Karpinski -- and the other is the MI brigade commander, Colonel Thomas Pappas, who both have responsibilities that bring them into day-to-day interaction with their soldiers who worked in that prison. And so, that's the question is, is where was their leadership and what was their knowledge about what was happening in that specific cell block.
PHILLIPS: All right. Our Ken Robinson, military intelligence analyst. We're going to ask you to stand by.
Once again, live pictures there from the Department of defense. I'm now being told the players of the commission coming out to address reporters. The so-called Schlesinger Commission getting ready to brief reporters.
(BEGIN LIVE NEWS EVENT)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good afternoon. We are pleased to have with us today members of the independent panel to review DOD detention operations. At the request of the secretary of defense, this panel was asked to provide their objective and independent findings and recommendations regarding the allegations and investigations of abuse at DOD detention facilities.
Mr. Secretary, would you like to introduce your colleagues?
JAMES SCHLESINGER, PANEL CHAIRMAN: To my left is Congresswoman Tillie Fowler, and to my right is General Chuck Horner. Mrs. Fowler has led some independent investigations in the past. General Horner was responsible for the air war in -- a long time ago -- in the Gulf War in 1991, after which he was commander of Space Command. And Harold Brown, former defense secretary, is available to us by phone. And Harold Brown's picture appears to the left.
Jim Blackwell (ph) is our executive director, and Margie Munson (ph) is the director of analysis.
Thank you.
The first thing I want to say is that the secretary of defense asked us to provide independent and objective analysis and let the chips fall where they may. I quote him.
We have received total cooperation from the department. Each request that we have made has been fully answered.
And thirdly in this connection, I should mention that the department has recognized previous deficiencies in the operation and they have taken some actions.
We commend those actions and we have made some additional recommendations for further change.
I will briefly summarize some of the salient points in the study, which all of you now have.
First, there was chaos at Abu Ghraib. That was a reflection of a variety of things.
In the first place, Abu Ghraib had been selected by Ambassador Bremer to be the place that civilian criminals were housed. Later, in the absence of a facility for security inmates, General Sanchez agreed with Ambassador Bremer that Abu Ghraib would be the correct place.
The result was that we had a facility that was under constant shelling, that there were Iraqi police everywhere but the hard site, and that the Iraqi police were marked by some degree of corruption, and that in certain instances they slipped armaments to the inmates.
Moreover, there was a very low ratio of military police to the number of inmates, which ranged as high as 8,000.
At Guantanamo, which is something of a model, the ratio of military police to detainees was 1:1. At Abu Ghraib, the ratio of military police was 1:75.
They were undertrained for detention operations and they had arrived with -- not in units, but with their equipment missing.
Second point -- the extent of the abuses.
There are now some 300 cases, more or less, of abuses being investigated, many of them beyond Abu Ghraib. So the abuses were not limited to a few individuals.
However, despite the widespread existence of these cases, one turns to the peculiar aspects or the unique aspects of Abu Ghraib as reflected in the photos that were taken. Those photos, as you know, triggered a widespread reaction and a fair amount of speculation.
Contrary to that speculation, the abuses that were depicted in the photos did not come from authorized interrogation. They did not come from seeking intelligence. They were freelance activities on the part of the night shift at Abu Ghraib.
I commend to you the first paragraph of our report.
None of the targets in the photos were there because of presumed valuable information -- directed at intelligence targets. But none of them were photographed. The photographs were extracurricular activities of the night shift at Abu Ghraib.
The fourth point: There was no policy of abuse -- quite the contrary.
Senior officials repeatedly said that in Iraq, Geneva regulations would apply. In Afghanistan and Guantanamo, it was quite different. But even there, it was said, following the president's directive that all activities should be consistent with the Geneva Accord.
At Guantanamo, which was the original site, we had taken prisoners people who were believed to have further information about 9/11 and possible subsequent terrorist activities. The secretary of defense issued a memorandum that was strictly limited to Guantanamo in which certain techniques were authorized -- that those techniques were later modified by the secretary of defense.
He gave permission in two cases at Guantanamo. I mention this memorandum because there has been considerable speculation with regard to how extensively that memorandum might be applied.
The discussion whether or not this was just a few individuals in Abu Ghraib -- this was not just a few individuals.
They were unique in the sense that there was sadism on the night shift at Abu Ghraib, sadism that was certainly not authorized. It was a kind of "Animal House" on the night shift. That is reflected in the fact that there was no such activities during the day shift when there were different non-coms in charge.
There was direct responsibility for those activities on the part of the commanders on the scene up to the brigade level, because they did not adequately supervise what was going on at Abu Ghraib. In addition, there was indirect responsibility at higher levels in that the weaknesses at Abu Ghraib were well-known and that corrective action could have been taken and should have been taken.
We believe that there is institutional and personal responsibility right up the chain of command as far as Washington is concerned.
Finally, let me dwell upon the following point, that we are in a different type of conflict. In dealing with the war on terror, we must have intelligence in a way that is different from the classic wars that we have fought in the past.
One consequence of the publicity that has been associated with the activities at Abu Ghraib and the punishments that prospectively will be handed out is that it has had a chilling effect on interrogation operations.
It is essential in the war on terror that we have adequate intelligence and that we have effective interrogation.
Thank you.
Dr. Brown? Harold, can you hear me?
(END LIVE NEWS EVENT)
PHILLIPS: It was an "'Animal House' on the night shift." Those words straight out of the mouth of James Schlesinger, the panel commission -- the head of the commission there investigating the torture of inmates at Abu Ghraib in Iraq, also going on to saying, "sadism on the night shift at Abu Ghraib." Pretty chilling report there. Very direct, talking about what happened there in those photos were not the policy, the acts were of no way the policy of the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib, but rather extracurricular activities that were taking place on the night shift. Freelance activities at night.
Also being told that those pictured in those photos, none in the photos were of value with regard to intelligence. And that, if anything, these pictures and the investigation into what happened at Abu Ghraib will have a chilling effect on the intelligence operation and the changes that must be made.
Once again, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, telling James Schlesinger and his commission that, let the chips fall where they may. And indeed, according to Schlesinger and what he had to say, they definitely have.
Now, the ex-commander of the MP Brigade at the center of the scandal will be a guest tomorrow on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING." As you know, this is the brigadier general, Janis Karpinski, who was the head of Abu Ghraib, was supposed to be in charge of what was taking place at this prison. That interview, 7:00 a.m. Eastern, 4:00 Pacific, right here on CNN.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now to Mannheim, Germany, where there is word of another plea agreement among the allegedly abusive Abu Ghraib MPs. CNN's Chris Burns joins us now via videophone with that.
Hello, Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Miles.
Yes, there is a plea agreement by Sergeant -- Sergeant Frederick, who has said that he is willing to plead guilty to a certain number of charges. He's facing five charges, including assault and mistreatment of prisoners. However, he's not clear exactly what he's going to plead guilty to.
However, the defense says that that -- that could make him available to -- some defense lawyers would like to talk to him because he could have more information that they believe will lead to higher places, that there were commanders who were, according to the defense lawyers, saying that they should be doing what they should be doing.
Now, from this report, what we see coming out is that this report that was just released is pointing mainly to this night shift of MPs, of military police. But it is unclear as to whether there is also military intelligence involved. And that could very well be. And that is really the main thrust of the defense there, saying that military intelligence was running the show and that these military police were only following orders -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Chris Burns in Mannheim. Thank you very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: It's the Cinderella story of the Olympics. Iraq's dream team makes it to the medal round. We're going to update you on how it's doing just ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH JACKSON, ART LOSS REGISTER: We are not talking here about an art lover who's got a secret gallery of the world's masterpieces on his wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: But who does have the stolen "Scream?" We're going to show you why some bold thieves may not be making big bucks off their amazing heist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Shaken, stirred, but not broken. An earthquake rattled the site of the Olympics today. The quake, with a preliminary magnitude of 4.5, struck northeast of Athens, Greece, on the island of Evia. It happened 12 miles beneath the Aegean Sea. No injuries or damage reported. Greece is one of the most seismically active countries in Europe.
Well, a group of Olympic underdogs hope to make the earth move once again in Greece. Iraq's national soccer team is playing Paraguay right now. I'm told the score. They are down by one. The winner of that game advances to the gold medal match.
Just making it to semifinals has turned that entire squad into instant heroes back home in Iraq. We're going to have a live report from Athens in just about an hour.
O'BRIEN: News around the world now.
The perfect storm. Rough seas from Typhoon Aere have killed at least seven people in the Pacific. Heavy rains threatened floods and mudslides in Taiwan. Forecasters warn if Aere teams up with super Typhoon Chaba near Guam it could slow down. Now, slow-moving typhoon can cause even worse damage.
Checkmate. Japan ordered the deportation of ex-chess champ Bobby Fischer today. Fischer is wanted in the U.S. for breaking sanctions against Yugoslavia a dozen years ago. He's been detained in Japan since mid-July, when he was nabbed for traveling with an invalid passport.
Pleas for the paintings. Publication in Norway are calling for the bandits who stole "The Scream" and "Madonna" to return the prized Munch paintings. One is even offering a reward.
The museum that housed them reopened today. Police still searching for the masked robbers who snatched the national treasures. That reward might just get a bite. After all, you can't fence such well-known Munch paintings out of the trunk of a Chevy or the black market.
CNN's Jim Boulden delves into the seamy underworld of art thefts. Who gets robbed the most might surprise you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It appears that stealing "The Scream" in Oslo will be easier than selling it. Anyway, the art world does not expect such a famous painting to end up on the black market. Tony Russell has been tracking art thieves for 25 years.
TONY RUSSELL, ART RECOVERY, LTD.: And their options are either ransom it back, take a reward for returning it, or passing on amongst the other criminals maybe for a few kilos of drugs.
BOULDEN: The Art Loss Register tracks stolen goods on behalf of insurance companies and victims. Its experts estimate art crimes ranks fourth, behind drugs, money laundering and illegal arms.
JACKSON: We are not talking here about an art lover who's got a secret gallery of the world's masterpieces on his wall. This is a nasty crime. It's linked to organized crime, gun running, drugs, and the idea is to convert artworks into cash.
BOULDEN (on camera): The insurance industry estimates some $5 billion worth of artwork is stolen every year. And only about five percent of that is ever recovered. But if it's a well-known piece of artwork, then the odds of recovery go up greatly.
(voice-over): That's because paintings worth tens of millions of dollars are often returned in exchange for ransom. But the real money is in stealing art worth much less money that can be easily sold on without much notice.
That's why more than half of all art is stolen from homes. Much of that is then sold through the Internet. Only 12 percent is stolen from museums. The same amount is also taken from galleries.
Ironically, a crackdown on stolen art coming back into the market through auctions has kept many pieces from resurfacing. And a crackdown on money laundering is making it harder for criminals to move cash around. So, a portable piece of art, like this tiny da Vinci masterpiece stolen last year, is becoming a preferred currency between criminal gangs.
Jim Boulden, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Disturbing images from a war zone: boys who should be playing with toys toting real guns. Young recruits pulled into patrolling the streets of Najaf later on LIVE FROM.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LORI MAGNUSON, MIDDLE CLASS VOTER: At this point, I'm very -- extremely tired of the Democrats and Republicans fighting against each other. (END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Which -- which candidate has the winning ways with voters? Americans speak up about what they want to hear.
And speaking of winning ways, here is Rhonda.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired August 24, 2004 - 13:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to have new developments in just a moment. We're monitoring this live press conference.
Meanwhile, we -- as we wait for the so-called Schlesinger Commission to brief reporters at the Pentagon, let's bring in our military intelligence analyst, Ken Robinson, for some insight.
As we wait for it to begin, Ken, let's talk about what we expect to hear. You've been talking about policy versus men behaving badly.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, the -- this board, which is made up of primary principal members of the Defense Planning Board, who oversee a lot of issues regarding the Pentagon, have been chosen specifically because of their ability to look up the entire chain of command, past -- central command, up into the civilian leadership of the office of the secretary of defense.
So, the thing that they've been searching for is to try to understand and differentiate between behavior and misconduct versus policy, which may not have been properly articulated or may have been inappropriate.
PHILLIPS: And of course, we've talked a lot about the gray areas. We've talked about the gray areas well before this commission even came together, Ken. Let's address those when talking about how soldiers should be treated versus foreign fighters.
ROBINSON: Well, it's known that in Afghanistan the United States government and a coalition was fighting against enemy combatants, a terrorist organization. They were not fighting the nation state. They were fighting al Qaeda.
Then those prisoners were sent to Guantanamo Bay, where they were deemed to be enemy combatants. And so, what was said at the time was that the policy was that the Geneva Convention did not apply, but the spirit of the Geneva Convention would be utilized as a guidepost as they try to extract combat information to be able to prevent or deter future attacks.
PHILLIPS: And...
ROBINSON: Then...
PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Ken. I'm sorry.
ROBINSON: Then we went into Iraq, where we were going against -- the United States government was going against a nation state governed by the laws of land warfare and the Geneva Convention. And so, the questions of ambiguity arise between the differentiation between what type prisoners you're holding. Because, in Iraq, they are also dealing with foreign fighters who are not part of an army.
PHILLIPS: Sure. And the philosophy is you treat a soldier, a schooled soldier, a disciplined soldier different than you would a foreign fighter, correct? And so, then you have these pictures come out, and is this pretty much the basis of where you think this report might be centered in that it might be OK to treat a foreign fighter differently from a disciplined soldier?
ROBINSON: Well, we need to differentiate clearly between behavior which truly borders or is torture, and that which you would use to extract information from someone who is an enemy combatant. There's no one who will stand up and justify anything that's been seen in those photographs. The issue will be who knew that that was occurring and was it a policy. And if it was a policy, and what level did that policy start, and who approved it?
PHILLIPS: So, in no way those pictures will be justified no matter how it's looked at. Whatever policy was implemented was wrong?
ROBINSON: In my opinion.
PHILLIPS: OK. Well, you've had the background of dealing with special forces. You've had to be in those areas and actually seen those prisons. I mean, have you ever seen photos like that in your experience?
ROBINSON: No. The -- you know, if you had asked me prior to those photos being released whether something like that was even possible, I would have sat right here on the air and argued that it wasn't. It clearly was a series of cascading faults, of sins of omission on the part of some leaders at certain levels and commission on the part of people who had responsibility for the care of those prisoners.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about that responsibility. We want to remind our viewers also that you're looking at live pictures now from DOD's new Department of Defense, waiting for Donald Rumsfeld, among others, to come out, commission members, on the this investigation that was done into what took place at Abu Ghraib, the prison, as you know.
We have seen the pictures. We have seen the allegations of torture of Iraqi prisoners there by U.S. military.
Ken, let's talk about -- you talk about the leadership rolls. Janis Karpinski, the woman that was in charge of this prison, how big is this factor in the overall picture? Obviously, there is going to be a lot of talk about policy and what went wrong policy-wise. But what about this woman, who was supposed to know about everything that was going on in that prison?
ROBINSON: Well, this is going to be one of the main faults about the chain of command. The -- there are some who say that Lieutenant General Sanchez should have been more involved in the day-to-day operations at the prison and should have been aware of abuses which were taking place. But he has two executive agents who are responsible for that.
One is the military police brigade commander -- in this case, Brigadier General Karpinski -- and the other is the MI brigade commander, Colonel Thomas Pappas, who both have responsibilities that bring them into day-to-day interaction with their soldiers who worked in that prison. And so, that's the question is, is where was their leadership and what was their knowledge about what was happening in that specific cell block.
PHILLIPS: All right. Our Ken Robinson, military intelligence analyst. We're going to ask you to stand by.
Once again, live pictures there from the Department of defense. I'm now being told the players of the commission coming out to address reporters. The so-called Schlesinger Commission getting ready to brief reporters.
(BEGIN LIVE NEWS EVENT)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good afternoon. We are pleased to have with us today members of the independent panel to review DOD detention operations. At the request of the secretary of defense, this panel was asked to provide their objective and independent findings and recommendations regarding the allegations and investigations of abuse at DOD detention facilities.
Mr. Secretary, would you like to introduce your colleagues?
JAMES SCHLESINGER, PANEL CHAIRMAN: To my left is Congresswoman Tillie Fowler, and to my right is General Chuck Horner. Mrs. Fowler has led some independent investigations in the past. General Horner was responsible for the air war in -- a long time ago -- in the Gulf War in 1991, after which he was commander of Space Command. And Harold Brown, former defense secretary, is available to us by phone. And Harold Brown's picture appears to the left.
Jim Blackwell (ph) is our executive director, and Margie Munson (ph) is the director of analysis.
Thank you.
The first thing I want to say is that the secretary of defense asked us to provide independent and objective analysis and let the chips fall where they may. I quote him.
We have received total cooperation from the department. Each request that we have made has been fully answered.
And thirdly in this connection, I should mention that the department has recognized previous deficiencies in the operation and they have taken some actions.
We commend those actions and we have made some additional recommendations for further change.
I will briefly summarize some of the salient points in the study, which all of you now have.
First, there was chaos at Abu Ghraib. That was a reflection of a variety of things.
In the first place, Abu Ghraib had been selected by Ambassador Bremer to be the place that civilian criminals were housed. Later, in the absence of a facility for security inmates, General Sanchez agreed with Ambassador Bremer that Abu Ghraib would be the correct place.
The result was that we had a facility that was under constant shelling, that there were Iraqi police everywhere but the hard site, and that the Iraqi police were marked by some degree of corruption, and that in certain instances they slipped armaments to the inmates.
Moreover, there was a very low ratio of military police to the number of inmates, which ranged as high as 8,000.
At Guantanamo, which is something of a model, the ratio of military police to detainees was 1:1. At Abu Ghraib, the ratio of military police was 1:75.
They were undertrained for detention operations and they had arrived with -- not in units, but with their equipment missing.
Second point -- the extent of the abuses.
There are now some 300 cases, more or less, of abuses being investigated, many of them beyond Abu Ghraib. So the abuses were not limited to a few individuals.
However, despite the widespread existence of these cases, one turns to the peculiar aspects or the unique aspects of Abu Ghraib as reflected in the photos that were taken. Those photos, as you know, triggered a widespread reaction and a fair amount of speculation.
Contrary to that speculation, the abuses that were depicted in the photos did not come from authorized interrogation. They did not come from seeking intelligence. They were freelance activities on the part of the night shift at Abu Ghraib.
I commend to you the first paragraph of our report.
None of the targets in the photos were there because of presumed valuable information -- directed at intelligence targets. But none of them were photographed. The photographs were extracurricular activities of the night shift at Abu Ghraib.
The fourth point: There was no policy of abuse -- quite the contrary.
Senior officials repeatedly said that in Iraq, Geneva regulations would apply. In Afghanistan and Guantanamo, it was quite different. But even there, it was said, following the president's directive that all activities should be consistent with the Geneva Accord.
At Guantanamo, which was the original site, we had taken prisoners people who were believed to have further information about 9/11 and possible subsequent terrorist activities. The secretary of defense issued a memorandum that was strictly limited to Guantanamo in which certain techniques were authorized -- that those techniques were later modified by the secretary of defense.
He gave permission in two cases at Guantanamo. I mention this memorandum because there has been considerable speculation with regard to how extensively that memorandum might be applied.
The discussion whether or not this was just a few individuals in Abu Ghraib -- this was not just a few individuals.
They were unique in the sense that there was sadism on the night shift at Abu Ghraib, sadism that was certainly not authorized. It was a kind of "Animal House" on the night shift. That is reflected in the fact that there was no such activities during the day shift when there were different non-coms in charge.
There was direct responsibility for those activities on the part of the commanders on the scene up to the brigade level, because they did not adequately supervise what was going on at Abu Ghraib. In addition, there was indirect responsibility at higher levels in that the weaknesses at Abu Ghraib were well-known and that corrective action could have been taken and should have been taken.
We believe that there is institutional and personal responsibility right up the chain of command as far as Washington is concerned.
Finally, let me dwell upon the following point, that we are in a different type of conflict. In dealing with the war on terror, we must have intelligence in a way that is different from the classic wars that we have fought in the past.
One consequence of the publicity that has been associated with the activities at Abu Ghraib and the punishments that prospectively will be handed out is that it has had a chilling effect on interrogation operations.
It is essential in the war on terror that we have adequate intelligence and that we have effective interrogation.
Thank you.
Dr. Brown? Harold, can you hear me?
(END LIVE NEWS EVENT)
PHILLIPS: It was an "'Animal House' on the night shift." Those words straight out of the mouth of James Schlesinger, the panel commission -- the head of the commission there investigating the torture of inmates at Abu Ghraib in Iraq, also going on to saying, "sadism on the night shift at Abu Ghraib." Pretty chilling report there. Very direct, talking about what happened there in those photos were not the policy, the acts were of no way the policy of the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib, but rather extracurricular activities that were taking place on the night shift. Freelance activities at night.
Also being told that those pictured in those photos, none in the photos were of value with regard to intelligence. And that, if anything, these pictures and the investigation into what happened at Abu Ghraib will have a chilling effect on the intelligence operation and the changes that must be made.
Once again, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, telling James Schlesinger and his commission that, let the chips fall where they may. And indeed, according to Schlesinger and what he had to say, they definitely have.
Now, the ex-commander of the MP Brigade at the center of the scandal will be a guest tomorrow on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING." As you know, this is the brigadier general, Janis Karpinski, who was the head of Abu Ghraib, was supposed to be in charge of what was taking place at this prison. That interview, 7:00 a.m. Eastern, 4:00 Pacific, right here on CNN.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now to Mannheim, Germany, where there is word of another plea agreement among the allegedly abusive Abu Ghraib MPs. CNN's Chris Burns joins us now via videophone with that.
Hello, Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Miles.
Yes, there is a plea agreement by Sergeant -- Sergeant Frederick, who has said that he is willing to plead guilty to a certain number of charges. He's facing five charges, including assault and mistreatment of prisoners. However, he's not clear exactly what he's going to plead guilty to.
However, the defense says that that -- that could make him available to -- some defense lawyers would like to talk to him because he could have more information that they believe will lead to higher places, that there were commanders who were, according to the defense lawyers, saying that they should be doing what they should be doing.
Now, from this report, what we see coming out is that this report that was just released is pointing mainly to this night shift of MPs, of military police. But it is unclear as to whether there is also military intelligence involved. And that could very well be. And that is really the main thrust of the defense there, saying that military intelligence was running the show and that these military police were only following orders -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Chris Burns in Mannheim. Thank you very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: It's the Cinderella story of the Olympics. Iraq's dream team makes it to the medal round. We're going to update you on how it's doing just ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH JACKSON, ART LOSS REGISTER: We are not talking here about an art lover who's got a secret gallery of the world's masterpieces on his wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: But who does have the stolen "Scream?" We're going to show you why some bold thieves may not be making big bucks off their amazing heist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Shaken, stirred, but not broken. An earthquake rattled the site of the Olympics today. The quake, with a preliminary magnitude of 4.5, struck northeast of Athens, Greece, on the island of Evia. It happened 12 miles beneath the Aegean Sea. No injuries or damage reported. Greece is one of the most seismically active countries in Europe.
Well, a group of Olympic underdogs hope to make the earth move once again in Greece. Iraq's national soccer team is playing Paraguay right now. I'm told the score. They are down by one. The winner of that game advances to the gold medal match.
Just making it to semifinals has turned that entire squad into instant heroes back home in Iraq. We're going to have a live report from Athens in just about an hour.
O'BRIEN: News around the world now.
The perfect storm. Rough seas from Typhoon Aere have killed at least seven people in the Pacific. Heavy rains threatened floods and mudslides in Taiwan. Forecasters warn if Aere teams up with super Typhoon Chaba near Guam it could slow down. Now, slow-moving typhoon can cause even worse damage.
Checkmate. Japan ordered the deportation of ex-chess champ Bobby Fischer today. Fischer is wanted in the U.S. for breaking sanctions against Yugoslavia a dozen years ago. He's been detained in Japan since mid-July, when he was nabbed for traveling with an invalid passport.
Pleas for the paintings. Publication in Norway are calling for the bandits who stole "The Scream" and "Madonna" to return the prized Munch paintings. One is even offering a reward.
The museum that housed them reopened today. Police still searching for the masked robbers who snatched the national treasures. That reward might just get a bite. After all, you can't fence such well-known Munch paintings out of the trunk of a Chevy or the black market.
CNN's Jim Boulden delves into the seamy underworld of art thefts. Who gets robbed the most might surprise you.
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JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It appears that stealing "The Scream" in Oslo will be easier than selling it. Anyway, the art world does not expect such a famous painting to end up on the black market. Tony Russell has been tracking art thieves for 25 years.
TONY RUSSELL, ART RECOVERY, LTD.: And their options are either ransom it back, take a reward for returning it, or passing on amongst the other criminals maybe for a few kilos of drugs.
BOULDEN: The Art Loss Register tracks stolen goods on behalf of insurance companies and victims. Its experts estimate art crimes ranks fourth, behind drugs, money laundering and illegal arms.
JACKSON: We are not talking here about an art lover who's got a secret gallery of the world's masterpieces on his wall. This is a nasty crime. It's linked to organized crime, gun running, drugs, and the idea is to convert artworks into cash.
BOULDEN (on camera): The insurance industry estimates some $5 billion worth of artwork is stolen every year. And only about five percent of that is ever recovered. But if it's a well-known piece of artwork, then the odds of recovery go up greatly.
(voice-over): That's because paintings worth tens of millions of dollars are often returned in exchange for ransom. But the real money is in stealing art worth much less money that can be easily sold on without much notice.
That's why more than half of all art is stolen from homes. Much of that is then sold through the Internet. Only 12 percent is stolen from museums. The same amount is also taken from galleries.
Ironically, a crackdown on stolen art coming back into the market through auctions has kept many pieces from resurfacing. And a crackdown on money laundering is making it harder for criminals to move cash around. So, a portable piece of art, like this tiny da Vinci masterpiece stolen last year, is becoming a preferred currency between criminal gangs.
Jim Boulden, CNN, London.
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O'BRIEN: Disturbing images from a war zone: boys who should be playing with toys toting real guns. Young recruits pulled into patrolling the streets of Najaf later on LIVE FROM.
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LORI MAGNUSON, MIDDLE CLASS VOTER: At this point, I'm very -- extremely tired of the Democrats and Republicans fighting against each other. (END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Which -- which candidate has the winning ways with voters? Americans speak up about what they want to hear.
And speaking of winning ways, here is Rhonda.
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