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Live From...
Many Theories Concerning Two Plane Crashes in Russia; Max Cleland Arrives at Bush's Ranch; Bush & Cheney Clash Over Gay Marriage. Interview with Bela Karolyi
Aired August 25, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Two plane crashes just minutes and hundreds of miles apart. Investigators have not ruled out terrorism. We're live on that story.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Calls for a rescue -- a powerful Iraqi cleric asks his countrymen to march on the war-torn city of Najaf.
O'BRIEN: An uninvited guest -- Vietnam war veteran Max Cleland plans to pay a visit to the President's Texas ranch and deliver a message.
PHILLIPS: The man with the Midas touch -- gymnastics legend Bela Karolyi live on the Olympic scoring scandals and how to spot a champ.
O'BRIEN: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
O'BRIEN: Up first this hour, terror or terrible coincidence? Two planes, two crashes, three minutes, and 450 miles apart. It happened last night in Russia, and 89 people, everybody on board both commercial airliners, are dead. Today, investigators are combing the crash sites and preparing to analyze flight data and cockpit voice recorders for vital clues.
Meantime, theories range from sabotage to mechanical malfunction, to pilot error. So, for now, Russian officials are downplaying the possibility of terror. Our coverage begins with CNN's Paula Hancocks, live now from Moscow -- Paula.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles. Well, conspiracy theories are probably inevitable in a case like this, but they really are very coincidental crashes, as you say, both within minutes of each other, disappearing from those radar screens late last night, about 3:00 p.m. your time.
Now, President Vladimir Putin has come back to Moscow this evening. He's cut short his holiday, and he's meeting with ministers at the moment in the white house behind me to try and figure out exactly what has happened. Now, Russian officials are being cautious. They're saying it could be terrorism. They're not ruling that out. But they're not going to rule anything outside as well. They say that there could have been a technical problem or a pilot error, and also, there could have been a problem with the fuel. The one significant thing they do say is that they have recovered those flight data recorders. They are both back in Moscow at the moment as well and being looked at as we speak.
Now, there were reports that the first plane -- there were eyewitness reports in a nearby village saying that they saw and heard an explosion before the crash. And with the second plane that crashed, there were reports suggesting that there had been a hijack alert from the crew just before that plane crashed as well. So, these voice recorders really are very vital to figure out whether or not there was terrorism involved, or whether it was just a horrible coincidence.
Now, they are expecting that on these voice recorders, if there was any attack on the crew, that would be recorded. And also, with the data recorders, and technical faults should have been picked up. So, at the moment, security is tightening at the airport that both of these planes left from, the Domodedovo Airport, which is the main airport for domestic flights here in Moscow.
And also at the crash sites themselves, there's about 2,000 people also still combing through the wreckage, trying to find any indication of how this could have happened. The Russian officials really are being very cautious at the moment, saying that we must remember it could be a technical or a pilot error. But inevitably, in a case like this, if indeed it is terrorism and these conspiracy theories are flying, then the Chechen rebel fighters have been named.
This is about three days, four days away, we are now, from the presidential elections in Chechnya, coming on Sunday. And so, of course, they have been mentioned as possible people who would have been involved in an attack like this. But the exile chief, Azlam Maskadoff (ph), through his spokesman, has said that they were involved, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Paula, I've got to say it stretches credulity to think that it could be simultaneous pilot error or technical problems on the two airliners. We should point out that there was a report that one of the transponders indicated a secret code which would be used to indicate that there was a hijacking under way. And one other thought too. The wreckage is strewn over a 25-mile range, in one case, which would indicate something catastrophic happening in altitude.
HANCOCKS: That's right, Miles. To analysts that I've been speaking to, it does appear to be too much of a coincidence for it just to have been catastrophes that happened one after the other. The fact that they did leave from the same airport, the fact that it was just minutes between the two disappearing from those radar screens, and the fact that they were both found to have crashed with 89 passengers and crew between the two, having been killed.
And there is that fact that there was a report -- we haven't been able to confirm this -- that there was a hijack alert on the second plane, the plane that was going down to Sochi, which is actually where President Putin was enjoying his holiday -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Paula Hancocks in Moscow, thank you very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Getting to the bottom of an air disaster, accidental or otherwise, is a grueling, painstaking, time-consuming process, and one with which our Mike Brooks is very familiar. Before he came to CNN, Mike worked the Pan Am 103 and TWA 800 disasters for the FBI. He, of course, is watching this case closely.
I guess, first of all, I should ask you, when talking about terrorism -- it hasn't been ruled out -- do you see similarities with this incident and what you saw in 103, TWA?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the one similarity I see between TWA 800 and this one are the theories. TWA 800, all the way through the investigation, they thought -- there were different schools of thought that thought it was a missile, a bomb, or a mechanical. We found out that, finally, that the word was a mechanical failure.
This one, it's a little bit early on. They haven't gotten to a lot of the evidence yet, apparently. And again, what is going to be in a cockpit voice recorder, and also in that flight data recorder, are really going to be important as to what happened on board that plane.
Now, we hear the reports that a hijacking transponder was squawked that said there was a hijacking onboard. That cockpit voice recorder is going to be able to say what exactly was going on in the cockpit at the time they disappeared off the radar. Again, one of the other things they're going to look at are the radar tracks. The radar there is not as sophisticated as it is here in the United States.
One of the other things besides the black boxes are the physical evidence, Kyra. Right on the ground, they will be looking for pitting, which would be signs of a high explosive being used. They're saying early on now that they have not found signs of terrorism. They also can go up and do some initial swabbings to see if there is any explosive residue on the wreckage that they've found so far. But again, early on in this investigation so far.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's move toward airport security. You have background with that also, when you worked with other airlines. What do you know about the security overseas, in this airport in particular, where the planes launched from?
BROOKS: Well, this particular airport has been used mostly for domestic flights, but there are some international flights going out of there now. They started that just a short time ago. But the main international airport is used by one U.S. carrier that has a flight to and from Moscow every day.
Again, going back to this particular airport, the international security is up to snuff. The domestic security, I'm hearing from sources, airline security sources, that it could be better on the domestic flights, that some of the baggage is not used -- an explosive detector is not used on domestic baggage as it is here in the United States.
I'm also being told that the United States is playing a role in this. The Transportation Security Administration is supposed to be there in the Soviet Union right now, on the ground, assisting, and also taking a look to make sure that the security of U.S. flights coming from Russia back to the United States are up to snuff also.
PHILLIPS: Yeah, that's what we want to know. I mean, could TSA be over there right now or on its way to investigate this, and should we be concerned about flying right now? Could this affect the U.S., even though these planes -- it happened overseas?
BROOKS: It could affect the U.S., but I don't expect it to right now. You know, in the short term, yes, there's going to be increased scrutiny on flights going to and from the Soviet Union, especially coming from the Soviet Union. But in the long run, I don't look for it to affect U.S. flights very much.
It's up to snuff. They make sure that the standards are there in place on flights coming from Moscow to the United States. They have been doing this for years, and they check it on a regular basis, and the U.S. does have representatives there in Moscow to make sure that the security is up to snuff and appropriate.
PHILLIPS: All right, Mike Brooks, thanks so much.
BROOKS: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, for the second time in two days, we're awaiting now the release of a new report on the hows and whys of Abu Ghraib, this one by Army Major General George Fay. He's expected to lay much of the blame for inmate abuse and humiliation on U.S. Army intelligence. Now, many of the MPs implicated earlier the same thing. The blue ribbon report that came out yesterday cited freelance, unauthorized sadism by night shift guards.
Now, that report extended indirect responsibility all the way to Washington. But today in Philadelphia, the Democratic candidate for president took it one step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... called months ago for Secretary Rumsfeld to take that responsibility, for the president to take that responsibility. And again, today, as I have previously, I call for the resignation of the secretary of defense for failure to do what he should have done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: All right, well, we should know that the lead author of yesterday's report does not share Kerry's opinion. Now, today's report does come out this afternoon. You're going to see it live right here on LIVE FROM -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: News around the world now. Marching to Najaf -- Iraq's most influential Shiite cleric plans to travel to the embattled city tomorrow. He wants his fellow Iraqis to join him. Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani calling for a nationwide march to rescue Najaf , where U.S. forces are fighting a militia loyal to another cleric. Al-Sistani returned to Iraq today after receiving some medical treatment in London.
Lebanese hostage released -- officials say Iraqi militants freed the man after appeals by Muslim authorities. The captors released a video yesterday calling the Lebanese "good people who are fighting Israel."
The son of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is in trouble with the law. Mark Thatcher accused of helping to pay for a foiled coup attempt in the West African country of Equatorial Guinea. He has been placed under house arrest in South Africa.
Jesse Jackson in Libya. The civil rights activist visiting with children with AIDS, and he's pleading the case of the foreign medical worker sentenced to death for allegedly infecting them. Next, Jackson heads to Sudan.
PHILLIPS: Fallout from the swift boat ads. A Bush campaign staffer calls it quits -- details just ahead. Plus this...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a gay daughter. So, it's an issue that our family's very familiar with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Vice President Cheney opens up about his personal feelings about gay marriage. Later this hour, the abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison. Another report expected to be released this hour. We'll have that for you on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Max Cleland calls on the president, or tries to at least, while a Bush-Cheney lawyer makes an unhappy exit. More comings and goings in the swift boat controversy. CNN's Jill Dougherty watching them all from right near the ranch there down in Texas.
Jill, good to see you. Glad you're with us. Let's talk about Max Cleland, first of all. He's got a letter in hand, and what kind of reception will he get?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, you know, Max Cleland, remember, a decorated war hero himself from Vietnam, and a fervent supporter of John Kerry, is, at this very moment, on his way to the Bush ranch. And what he plans to do is hand over a letter, which is signed by him and nine other Vietnam veterans, who happen to be senators, and they are urging President Bush to criticize those attack ads, and specifically the group that has put those ads together, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Now, here's part of the letter: "Mr. President, as commander in chief of the armed forces, we believe you owe a special duty to America's combat veterans when they are under false and scurrilous attacks. We hope you will recognize this duty and speak out against this group and their efforts to smear the reputation of a man who has served this country nobly." Again, Max Cleland.
Now, the Bush campaign tells us that here's what's going to happen. When they arrive at the ranch, they will be welcomed, but they won't be, apparently, welcomed by the president. He'll be greeted by the Texas Land Commissioner -- that's Jerry Patterson. He himself is a Vietnam vet. And apparently, Patterson will hand over his own letter, which is to Senator Kerry. That letter is signed by congressmen who support President Bush.
And essentially, what they're going to say is this is a double standard -- "You, Senator Kerry, are running your campaign on the fact that you served in Vietnam, but..."
O'BRIEN: Just quickly, I just want to point out to our viewers we do have a picture of Max Cleland there in Crawford as he arrives. Carry on -- I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just wanted to point out to our viewers what we're seeing. Go ahead.
DOUGHERTY: No problem. So, anyway, dueling letters here. So, their letter -- this is the congressmen who support President Bush -- are going to say this is a double standard -- "Senator Kerry, you are basing your campaign on your Vietnam service, but," they argue, "you are saying only that the vets who agree with you are the ones who can enter this debate."
So, essentially what we've got, again, is this kind of showdown at the OK Ranch. And by the way, we just heard that they have arrived now at the Bush ranch. And Miles, just one quick other thing, another development in this. Benjamin Ginsberg, who was a lawyer for the Bush campaign, was forced, essentially, to step down.
He advised, legally advised the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. And he issued his resignation today, saying that he felt he had become an issue. He said, "I've done nothing wrong. I advised them legally, not in a campaign sense. But I'm going to step down anyway."
O'BRIEN: But surely, surely an election lawyer would understand that that was not necessarily a proper arrangement.
DOUGHERTY: Probably, legally, it was, but politically, probably not.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's finally talk about the vice president. It was quite notable that he would break ranks. I mean, this is a famously loyal administration, famously loyal vice president -- first time I've heard him say anything that would disagree with the boss, and it's a subject that strikes very close to home.
DOUGHERTY: Yeah, that's the issue of gay marriage. And actually, we've heard him speak previously on this subject, but not very much, and certainly not in much detail. Mainly, we've been hearing from Lynne Cheney, his wife, talking about this. But that case yesterday, where he's at a town hall, coming out in quite a lot of detail about his view on gay marriage, and it does not totally coincide with the president's view.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): A campaign issue takes a decidedly personal turn. Vice President Dick Cheney, at a town hall meeting in Davenport, Iowa, with his wife Lynne and gay daughter Mary, head of his campaign operations, fields a question about gay marriage.
CHENEY: Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family's very familiar with. At this point, I'd say my own preference is as I've stated, but the president makes basic policy for the administration, and he's made it clear that he does, in fact, support a constitutional amendment on this issue.
DOUGHERTY: It was the first time the vice president addressed the issue in as much detail.
CHENEY: Freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to.
DOUGHERTY: The vice president's personal views set him apart from President Bush, who, back in February, proposed passing a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.
GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're here to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever. Our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America.
DOUGHERTY: The vice president's comments came as the Republican Convention's platform committee discusses a position on gay marriage. The gay political organization Log Cabin Republicans applauded the vice president's comments, a written statement saying, "The party should welcome all voices. The vice president's comments should be a clear signal," they said, "to the drafters of our party's platform to not include a plank that would call for a constitutional amendment."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on-screen): So, that's the issue of gay marriage. And by the way, Miles, just a few minutes ago, to keep you updated on this Max Cleland story, they are over at the ranch. And in fact, he is there with Jim Rassmann, who is the man, a Vietnam vet, who says that his life was saved back in Vietnam by John Kerry.
O'BRIEN: Jill Dougherty in Crawford, Texas, thank you very much. A quick P.S. for you. Ben Ginsberg, the Republican lawyer we just told you about, who just quit the Bush-Cheney reelection team, will be Wolf Blitzer's guest today on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS," 5:00 p.m. Eastern, 2:00 Pacific, right here on CNN.
PHILLIPS: Next on LIVE FROM, he's led gymnastic greats Nadia Comaneci, Mary Lou Retton, and others to Olympic gold. Legendary coach Bela Karolyi talks about what it takes to make a champion. And later on LIVE FROM...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not drinking any water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Mystery illness at an Ohio island resort. What's making hundreds of them really sick? And tomorrow on LIVE FROM, a custody hearing expected for American children abandoned in Africa. Should they be given back to their adoptive mother?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, if you know the names Mary Lou Retton, Nadia Comaneci, or Kerri Strug, chances are you're going to know our next guest. Bela Karolyi is the most successful coach in the history of gymnastics. Twenty-eight of his gymnasts competed in the Olympics. Nine, including the few that we mentioned, went on, of course, to win gold medals.
Bela Karolyi joins me here in Atlanta to talk about this years games and, of course, the controversy over the gymnastics judging. We've been talking all through the break here. What a pleasure to have you.
BELA KAROLYI, FMR. U.S. OLYMPIC COACH: Pleasure having me -- it's a great thing.
PHILLIPS: It's an honor.
KAROLYI: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's get right into the judging, because you had some really interesting things to say. Let's go back to Paul Hamm and what happened with the South Korean gymnast, and we were talking about the scoring. You feel there's cheating that takes place in the scoring.
KAROLYI: Unfortunately, this was following gymnastics ever since. I know gymnastics. It's always been a subjective appreciation. Some people are doing flight from stupidity, some people are doing premeditated and calculated cheating. Either way, it's always damaging the result and achievement of some of the gymnasts.
This time, of course, you know, the Korean fellow was right in the middle of the judging controversy, and in a way, you know, Paul was involved because he was an Olympic champion. Now, everybody was asking, "Why you don't give up..."
PHILLIPS: Yeah, there's a lot of pressure, like, "Paul, why don't you give the gold medal to the South Korean gymnast?" And you say no way. KAROLYI: There's no way. He's an Olympic champion. He earned that. He won't give up on that one. Of course, you know, he would do the gesture and take that medal and put it on the Korean fellow's neck -- he would be (INAUDIBLE) for the rest of his life. I mean, I'm almost positive here. But this is his right. He earned it. He can keep it, and he can be proud for the rest of life of this medal.
And I don't think, you know, he should be even involved judging or discussing anything...
PHILLIPS: He shouldn't have even been involved.
KAROLYI: No, no.
PHILLIPS: All right, well, this is where the drama just began, right, because it got even more interesting with the Russian gymnast, Nemov, who obviously had a great performance, but didn't get good scores. The crowd goes crazy. He even has to come forward and ask the crowd to be quiet and calm down so Paul Hamm could come out.
What did you make of that? All of the sudden, the judges responded to the crowd and changed the score.
KAROLYI: That was probably the most ridiculous -- and that really showed the weakness of the system. You come in (INAUDIBLE) -- review of the performance. You come and you change the score. There's no logic changing the score. I mean, you've made that judgment before where you've been just wrong, willingly distortion the score. I mean, either way, it was so obvious that the judging is just not right, is just not set up right.
There was no doubt about which was the best performance of the high bar. I mean, the Russian fellow did a superior high bar routine than anybody else on that competition.
PHILLIPS: So, basically, the judges just sort of said, "OK, what do we do? Well, you change yours, I'll change mine," and that's what happened.
KAROLYI: That's right, "Let's have it between us and quiet the people down."
PHILLIPS: Unbelievable.
KAROLYI: But you see, I'm so excited, I'm so proud of the Greek crowd. They finally, they finally -- the crowd was the one who...
PHILLIPS: They put the pressure on the judges.
KAROLYI: That's right. The crowd was -- that brought up the injustice and the shortcomings of the judging, and it was great. I've been (INAUDIBLE) -- and I was suffering, and I was so frustrated for so many years, witnessing, and we never had a chance, you know, to fight against it. Finally, finally, this surfaced, and from now on...
PHILLIPS: So, things may change... KAROLYI: They'd better watch out from now on.
PHILLIPS: Interesting, very interesting. Yeah, because it can't continue like that.
KAROLYI: That's right.
PHILLIPS: OK, I want to move on. We've got to talk about a number of your champs. Mary Lou Retton, Nadia Comaneci, Kerri Strug -- I mean, I could go on and on about these gold medalists that you trained. How do you know when you have a champ? How do you know when you have such a great gymnast on your hands? And how do you keep that young woman from getting stressed out or giving into the pressure?
KAROLYI: You see -- (INAUDIBLE) mommies coming with all the babies -- oh, the girl, the little thing is hiding behind her -- "Oh, what you think, is she going to be a great champion?" "Oh, yes, yes, ma'am, sure, she's going to be a great champion, don't worry about that." But who knows? I mean, gosh, that time, you don't know.
But sure, you can watch them. You can follow them. The little guys are getting excited. They're getting into it. And some of them are really, really going away from the crowd with better and better physical performance. But it's still a long time to find out her mental (INAUDIBLE) -- her mental strength, her drive, her competitiveness, which is all a very hidden part of her personality.
So, it takes a long time for, of course, really to figure out you've got the gold or you've got just a good gymnast on your hands. So, the combination of mental and physical makes a good gymnast. And of course, with the great ones, then you're getting to the point, you try, you know, to remember, wow, how was the other one? Probably the same. None of them. There is no two people on the world that are completely identical.
Yes, of course, you've got them all differently. You've got to figure out their strengths and their weaknesses, to play with it, always being behind them as a motivational force. Then at the right time, at the right time, let's go for it, sonny (INAUDIBLE), we're going to win, we're going to get it.
PHILLIPS: You know, I need you in here motivating me every day, because you're getting me excited just sitting here. I love you. I want a gold medal.
Are you -- talk about that mental strength, Kerry Strug -- we'll never forget that picture of you holding her when she -- she broke her ankle, or she twisted her ankle...
KAROLYI: She hurt her ankle badly, yes.
PHILLIPS: ... and still went on, yes, to win the gold. I mean, you talk about mental and physical strength, she wasn't going to give up.
KAROLYI: You know, I was so proud of her, because we had (INAUDIBLE) precedent. And we had great young kids coming up. But the perception was, well, this pitiful (ph) little kids, they're like robots. You turn them on, they bump (ph), they jump, and they smile.
Well, they are not robots. They are high -- I mean, highly, highly educated. I mean highly -- high moral characters. I mean, these people (INAUDIBLE) having lion heart in them. These little young ladies are true athletes. And I was so -- it was so great to see her. It was so great to see her fighting through her difficult situation, fighting through the pain, and anchoring the gold. Wow!
PHILLIPS: Well, and now, your wife is over there. She's coaching. Are you jealous?
But then again, you told me you went over there and you were sort of like, OK, honey, don't forget this, don't forget that.
KAROLYI: I'm so proud of her. I'm very, very proud of her. She's really united the team. She made a tremendous job on behalf of the team. She united the coaches, try to get them together, and the result is amazing. Amazing. Congratulations to her.
And I'm -- yes, from time to time, I'm a little bit (INAUDIBLE), but not a whole lot.
PHILLIPS: I'll tell you what, if I have a daughter or a son, I am sending them both to you. You are amazing. You are such an inspiration. Thanks for stopping by today.
KAROLYI: Oh, thank you, thank you. It's my pleasure.
PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure to have you here. I know you're touring around. You're meeting with champions.
KAROLYI: Oh, the T.J. Maxx Tour of Olympic Gymnastic Champions is coming up. This is the greatest reward. I'm serious now. This is the greatest reward for our young athletes. They're all excited about it, and they put up a great show.
So, everyone is invited to come and to see the T.J. Maxx Tour of Olympic Gymnast Champions.
PHILLIPS: Just to meet you would be a pleasure.
KAROLYI: Thank you. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you so much Bela Karolyi. What a pleasure -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, Bela gets a gold medal for getting the plug in, for sure. Absolutely.
More fallout this afternoon from the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. It's actually a prisoner abuse scandal that extends beyond Abu Ghraib. Live pictures from the Pentagon. Another day, another report -- different report. Calls into question some other players in this whole scandal. We'll bring that report's release to you live as it happens, of course.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired August 25, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Two plane crashes just minutes and hundreds of miles apart. Investigators have not ruled out terrorism. We're live on that story.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Calls for a rescue -- a powerful Iraqi cleric asks his countrymen to march on the war-torn city of Najaf.
O'BRIEN: An uninvited guest -- Vietnam war veteran Max Cleland plans to pay a visit to the President's Texas ranch and deliver a message.
PHILLIPS: The man with the Midas touch -- gymnastics legend Bela Karolyi live on the Olympic scoring scandals and how to spot a champ.
O'BRIEN: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
O'BRIEN: Up first this hour, terror or terrible coincidence? Two planes, two crashes, three minutes, and 450 miles apart. It happened last night in Russia, and 89 people, everybody on board both commercial airliners, are dead. Today, investigators are combing the crash sites and preparing to analyze flight data and cockpit voice recorders for vital clues.
Meantime, theories range from sabotage to mechanical malfunction, to pilot error. So, for now, Russian officials are downplaying the possibility of terror. Our coverage begins with CNN's Paula Hancocks, live now from Moscow -- Paula.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles. Well, conspiracy theories are probably inevitable in a case like this, but they really are very coincidental crashes, as you say, both within minutes of each other, disappearing from those radar screens late last night, about 3:00 p.m. your time.
Now, President Vladimir Putin has come back to Moscow this evening. He's cut short his holiday, and he's meeting with ministers at the moment in the white house behind me to try and figure out exactly what has happened. Now, Russian officials are being cautious. They're saying it could be terrorism. They're not ruling that out. But they're not going to rule anything outside as well. They say that there could have been a technical problem or a pilot error, and also, there could have been a problem with the fuel. The one significant thing they do say is that they have recovered those flight data recorders. They are both back in Moscow at the moment as well and being looked at as we speak.
Now, there were reports that the first plane -- there were eyewitness reports in a nearby village saying that they saw and heard an explosion before the crash. And with the second plane that crashed, there were reports suggesting that there had been a hijack alert from the crew just before that plane crashed as well. So, these voice recorders really are very vital to figure out whether or not there was terrorism involved, or whether it was just a horrible coincidence.
Now, they are expecting that on these voice recorders, if there was any attack on the crew, that would be recorded. And also, with the data recorders, and technical faults should have been picked up. So, at the moment, security is tightening at the airport that both of these planes left from, the Domodedovo Airport, which is the main airport for domestic flights here in Moscow.
And also at the crash sites themselves, there's about 2,000 people also still combing through the wreckage, trying to find any indication of how this could have happened. The Russian officials really are being very cautious at the moment, saying that we must remember it could be a technical or a pilot error. But inevitably, in a case like this, if indeed it is terrorism and these conspiracy theories are flying, then the Chechen rebel fighters have been named.
This is about three days, four days away, we are now, from the presidential elections in Chechnya, coming on Sunday. And so, of course, they have been mentioned as possible people who would have been involved in an attack like this. But the exile chief, Azlam Maskadoff (ph), through his spokesman, has said that they were involved, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Paula, I've got to say it stretches credulity to think that it could be simultaneous pilot error or technical problems on the two airliners. We should point out that there was a report that one of the transponders indicated a secret code which would be used to indicate that there was a hijacking under way. And one other thought too. The wreckage is strewn over a 25-mile range, in one case, which would indicate something catastrophic happening in altitude.
HANCOCKS: That's right, Miles. To analysts that I've been speaking to, it does appear to be too much of a coincidence for it just to have been catastrophes that happened one after the other. The fact that they did leave from the same airport, the fact that it was just minutes between the two disappearing from those radar screens, and the fact that they were both found to have crashed with 89 passengers and crew between the two, having been killed.
And there is that fact that there was a report -- we haven't been able to confirm this -- that there was a hijack alert on the second plane, the plane that was going down to Sochi, which is actually where President Putin was enjoying his holiday -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Paula Hancocks in Moscow, thank you very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Getting to the bottom of an air disaster, accidental or otherwise, is a grueling, painstaking, time-consuming process, and one with which our Mike Brooks is very familiar. Before he came to CNN, Mike worked the Pan Am 103 and TWA 800 disasters for the FBI. He, of course, is watching this case closely.
I guess, first of all, I should ask you, when talking about terrorism -- it hasn't been ruled out -- do you see similarities with this incident and what you saw in 103, TWA?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the one similarity I see between TWA 800 and this one are the theories. TWA 800, all the way through the investigation, they thought -- there were different schools of thought that thought it was a missile, a bomb, or a mechanical. We found out that, finally, that the word was a mechanical failure.
This one, it's a little bit early on. They haven't gotten to a lot of the evidence yet, apparently. And again, what is going to be in a cockpit voice recorder, and also in that flight data recorder, are really going to be important as to what happened on board that plane.
Now, we hear the reports that a hijacking transponder was squawked that said there was a hijacking onboard. That cockpit voice recorder is going to be able to say what exactly was going on in the cockpit at the time they disappeared off the radar. Again, one of the other things they're going to look at are the radar tracks. The radar there is not as sophisticated as it is here in the United States.
One of the other things besides the black boxes are the physical evidence, Kyra. Right on the ground, they will be looking for pitting, which would be signs of a high explosive being used. They're saying early on now that they have not found signs of terrorism. They also can go up and do some initial swabbings to see if there is any explosive residue on the wreckage that they've found so far. But again, early on in this investigation so far.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's move toward airport security. You have background with that also, when you worked with other airlines. What do you know about the security overseas, in this airport in particular, where the planes launched from?
BROOKS: Well, this particular airport has been used mostly for domestic flights, but there are some international flights going out of there now. They started that just a short time ago. But the main international airport is used by one U.S. carrier that has a flight to and from Moscow every day.
Again, going back to this particular airport, the international security is up to snuff. The domestic security, I'm hearing from sources, airline security sources, that it could be better on the domestic flights, that some of the baggage is not used -- an explosive detector is not used on domestic baggage as it is here in the United States.
I'm also being told that the United States is playing a role in this. The Transportation Security Administration is supposed to be there in the Soviet Union right now, on the ground, assisting, and also taking a look to make sure that the security of U.S. flights coming from Russia back to the United States are up to snuff also.
PHILLIPS: Yeah, that's what we want to know. I mean, could TSA be over there right now or on its way to investigate this, and should we be concerned about flying right now? Could this affect the U.S., even though these planes -- it happened overseas?
BROOKS: It could affect the U.S., but I don't expect it to right now. You know, in the short term, yes, there's going to be increased scrutiny on flights going to and from the Soviet Union, especially coming from the Soviet Union. But in the long run, I don't look for it to affect U.S. flights very much.
It's up to snuff. They make sure that the standards are there in place on flights coming from Moscow to the United States. They have been doing this for years, and they check it on a regular basis, and the U.S. does have representatives there in Moscow to make sure that the security is up to snuff and appropriate.
PHILLIPS: All right, Mike Brooks, thanks so much.
BROOKS: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, for the second time in two days, we're awaiting now the release of a new report on the hows and whys of Abu Ghraib, this one by Army Major General George Fay. He's expected to lay much of the blame for inmate abuse and humiliation on U.S. Army intelligence. Now, many of the MPs implicated earlier the same thing. The blue ribbon report that came out yesterday cited freelance, unauthorized sadism by night shift guards.
Now, that report extended indirect responsibility all the way to Washington. But today in Philadelphia, the Democratic candidate for president took it one step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... called months ago for Secretary Rumsfeld to take that responsibility, for the president to take that responsibility. And again, today, as I have previously, I call for the resignation of the secretary of defense for failure to do what he should have done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: All right, well, we should know that the lead author of yesterday's report does not share Kerry's opinion. Now, today's report does come out this afternoon. You're going to see it live right here on LIVE FROM -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: News around the world now. Marching to Najaf -- Iraq's most influential Shiite cleric plans to travel to the embattled city tomorrow. He wants his fellow Iraqis to join him. Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani calling for a nationwide march to rescue Najaf , where U.S. forces are fighting a militia loyal to another cleric. Al-Sistani returned to Iraq today after receiving some medical treatment in London.
Lebanese hostage released -- officials say Iraqi militants freed the man after appeals by Muslim authorities. The captors released a video yesterday calling the Lebanese "good people who are fighting Israel."
The son of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is in trouble with the law. Mark Thatcher accused of helping to pay for a foiled coup attempt in the West African country of Equatorial Guinea. He has been placed under house arrest in South Africa.
Jesse Jackson in Libya. The civil rights activist visiting with children with AIDS, and he's pleading the case of the foreign medical worker sentenced to death for allegedly infecting them. Next, Jackson heads to Sudan.
PHILLIPS: Fallout from the swift boat ads. A Bush campaign staffer calls it quits -- details just ahead. Plus this...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a gay daughter. So, it's an issue that our family's very familiar with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Vice President Cheney opens up about his personal feelings about gay marriage. Later this hour, the abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison. Another report expected to be released this hour. We'll have that for you on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Max Cleland calls on the president, or tries to at least, while a Bush-Cheney lawyer makes an unhappy exit. More comings and goings in the swift boat controversy. CNN's Jill Dougherty watching them all from right near the ranch there down in Texas.
Jill, good to see you. Glad you're with us. Let's talk about Max Cleland, first of all. He's got a letter in hand, and what kind of reception will he get?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, you know, Max Cleland, remember, a decorated war hero himself from Vietnam, and a fervent supporter of John Kerry, is, at this very moment, on his way to the Bush ranch. And what he plans to do is hand over a letter, which is signed by him and nine other Vietnam veterans, who happen to be senators, and they are urging President Bush to criticize those attack ads, and specifically the group that has put those ads together, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Now, here's part of the letter: "Mr. President, as commander in chief of the armed forces, we believe you owe a special duty to America's combat veterans when they are under false and scurrilous attacks. We hope you will recognize this duty and speak out against this group and their efforts to smear the reputation of a man who has served this country nobly." Again, Max Cleland.
Now, the Bush campaign tells us that here's what's going to happen. When they arrive at the ranch, they will be welcomed, but they won't be, apparently, welcomed by the president. He'll be greeted by the Texas Land Commissioner -- that's Jerry Patterson. He himself is a Vietnam vet. And apparently, Patterson will hand over his own letter, which is to Senator Kerry. That letter is signed by congressmen who support President Bush.
And essentially, what they're going to say is this is a double standard -- "You, Senator Kerry, are running your campaign on the fact that you served in Vietnam, but..."
O'BRIEN: Just quickly, I just want to point out to our viewers we do have a picture of Max Cleland there in Crawford as he arrives. Carry on -- I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just wanted to point out to our viewers what we're seeing. Go ahead.
DOUGHERTY: No problem. So, anyway, dueling letters here. So, their letter -- this is the congressmen who support President Bush -- are going to say this is a double standard -- "Senator Kerry, you are basing your campaign on your Vietnam service, but," they argue, "you are saying only that the vets who agree with you are the ones who can enter this debate."
So, essentially what we've got, again, is this kind of showdown at the OK Ranch. And by the way, we just heard that they have arrived now at the Bush ranch. And Miles, just one quick other thing, another development in this. Benjamin Ginsberg, who was a lawyer for the Bush campaign, was forced, essentially, to step down.
He advised, legally advised the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. And he issued his resignation today, saying that he felt he had become an issue. He said, "I've done nothing wrong. I advised them legally, not in a campaign sense. But I'm going to step down anyway."
O'BRIEN: But surely, surely an election lawyer would understand that that was not necessarily a proper arrangement.
DOUGHERTY: Probably, legally, it was, but politically, probably not.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's finally talk about the vice president. It was quite notable that he would break ranks. I mean, this is a famously loyal administration, famously loyal vice president -- first time I've heard him say anything that would disagree with the boss, and it's a subject that strikes very close to home.
DOUGHERTY: Yeah, that's the issue of gay marriage. And actually, we've heard him speak previously on this subject, but not very much, and certainly not in much detail. Mainly, we've been hearing from Lynne Cheney, his wife, talking about this. But that case yesterday, where he's at a town hall, coming out in quite a lot of detail about his view on gay marriage, and it does not totally coincide with the president's view.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): A campaign issue takes a decidedly personal turn. Vice President Dick Cheney, at a town hall meeting in Davenport, Iowa, with his wife Lynne and gay daughter Mary, head of his campaign operations, fields a question about gay marriage.
CHENEY: Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family's very familiar with. At this point, I'd say my own preference is as I've stated, but the president makes basic policy for the administration, and he's made it clear that he does, in fact, support a constitutional amendment on this issue.
DOUGHERTY: It was the first time the vice president addressed the issue in as much detail.
CHENEY: Freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to.
DOUGHERTY: The vice president's personal views set him apart from President Bush, who, back in February, proposed passing a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.
GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're here to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever. Our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America.
DOUGHERTY: The vice president's comments came as the Republican Convention's platform committee discusses a position on gay marriage. The gay political organization Log Cabin Republicans applauded the vice president's comments, a written statement saying, "The party should welcome all voices. The vice president's comments should be a clear signal," they said, "to the drafters of our party's platform to not include a plank that would call for a constitutional amendment."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on-screen): So, that's the issue of gay marriage. And by the way, Miles, just a few minutes ago, to keep you updated on this Max Cleland story, they are over at the ranch. And in fact, he is there with Jim Rassmann, who is the man, a Vietnam vet, who says that his life was saved back in Vietnam by John Kerry.
O'BRIEN: Jill Dougherty in Crawford, Texas, thank you very much. A quick P.S. for you. Ben Ginsberg, the Republican lawyer we just told you about, who just quit the Bush-Cheney reelection team, will be Wolf Blitzer's guest today on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS," 5:00 p.m. Eastern, 2:00 Pacific, right here on CNN.
PHILLIPS: Next on LIVE FROM, he's led gymnastic greats Nadia Comaneci, Mary Lou Retton, and others to Olympic gold. Legendary coach Bela Karolyi talks about what it takes to make a champion. And later on LIVE FROM...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not drinking any water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Mystery illness at an Ohio island resort. What's making hundreds of them really sick? And tomorrow on LIVE FROM, a custody hearing expected for American children abandoned in Africa. Should they be given back to their adoptive mother?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, if you know the names Mary Lou Retton, Nadia Comaneci, or Kerri Strug, chances are you're going to know our next guest. Bela Karolyi is the most successful coach in the history of gymnastics. Twenty-eight of his gymnasts competed in the Olympics. Nine, including the few that we mentioned, went on, of course, to win gold medals.
Bela Karolyi joins me here in Atlanta to talk about this years games and, of course, the controversy over the gymnastics judging. We've been talking all through the break here. What a pleasure to have you.
BELA KAROLYI, FMR. U.S. OLYMPIC COACH: Pleasure having me -- it's a great thing.
PHILLIPS: It's an honor.
KAROLYI: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's get right into the judging, because you had some really interesting things to say. Let's go back to Paul Hamm and what happened with the South Korean gymnast, and we were talking about the scoring. You feel there's cheating that takes place in the scoring.
KAROLYI: Unfortunately, this was following gymnastics ever since. I know gymnastics. It's always been a subjective appreciation. Some people are doing flight from stupidity, some people are doing premeditated and calculated cheating. Either way, it's always damaging the result and achievement of some of the gymnasts.
This time, of course, you know, the Korean fellow was right in the middle of the judging controversy, and in a way, you know, Paul was involved because he was an Olympic champion. Now, everybody was asking, "Why you don't give up..."
PHILLIPS: Yeah, there's a lot of pressure, like, "Paul, why don't you give the gold medal to the South Korean gymnast?" And you say no way. KAROLYI: There's no way. He's an Olympic champion. He earned that. He won't give up on that one. Of course, you know, he would do the gesture and take that medal and put it on the Korean fellow's neck -- he would be (INAUDIBLE) for the rest of his life. I mean, I'm almost positive here. But this is his right. He earned it. He can keep it, and he can be proud for the rest of life of this medal.
And I don't think, you know, he should be even involved judging or discussing anything...
PHILLIPS: He shouldn't have even been involved.
KAROLYI: No, no.
PHILLIPS: All right, well, this is where the drama just began, right, because it got even more interesting with the Russian gymnast, Nemov, who obviously had a great performance, but didn't get good scores. The crowd goes crazy. He even has to come forward and ask the crowd to be quiet and calm down so Paul Hamm could come out.
What did you make of that? All of the sudden, the judges responded to the crowd and changed the score.
KAROLYI: That was probably the most ridiculous -- and that really showed the weakness of the system. You come in (INAUDIBLE) -- review of the performance. You come and you change the score. There's no logic changing the score. I mean, you've made that judgment before where you've been just wrong, willingly distortion the score. I mean, either way, it was so obvious that the judging is just not right, is just not set up right.
There was no doubt about which was the best performance of the high bar. I mean, the Russian fellow did a superior high bar routine than anybody else on that competition.
PHILLIPS: So, basically, the judges just sort of said, "OK, what do we do? Well, you change yours, I'll change mine," and that's what happened.
KAROLYI: That's right, "Let's have it between us and quiet the people down."
PHILLIPS: Unbelievable.
KAROLYI: But you see, I'm so excited, I'm so proud of the Greek crowd. They finally, they finally -- the crowd was the one who...
PHILLIPS: They put the pressure on the judges.
KAROLYI: That's right. The crowd was -- that brought up the injustice and the shortcomings of the judging, and it was great. I've been (INAUDIBLE) -- and I was suffering, and I was so frustrated for so many years, witnessing, and we never had a chance, you know, to fight against it. Finally, finally, this surfaced, and from now on...
PHILLIPS: So, things may change... KAROLYI: They'd better watch out from now on.
PHILLIPS: Interesting, very interesting. Yeah, because it can't continue like that.
KAROLYI: That's right.
PHILLIPS: OK, I want to move on. We've got to talk about a number of your champs. Mary Lou Retton, Nadia Comaneci, Kerri Strug -- I mean, I could go on and on about these gold medalists that you trained. How do you know when you have a champ? How do you know when you have such a great gymnast on your hands? And how do you keep that young woman from getting stressed out or giving into the pressure?
KAROLYI: You see -- (INAUDIBLE) mommies coming with all the babies -- oh, the girl, the little thing is hiding behind her -- "Oh, what you think, is she going to be a great champion?" "Oh, yes, yes, ma'am, sure, she's going to be a great champion, don't worry about that." But who knows? I mean, gosh, that time, you don't know.
But sure, you can watch them. You can follow them. The little guys are getting excited. They're getting into it. And some of them are really, really going away from the crowd with better and better physical performance. But it's still a long time to find out her mental (INAUDIBLE) -- her mental strength, her drive, her competitiveness, which is all a very hidden part of her personality.
So, it takes a long time for, of course, really to figure out you've got the gold or you've got just a good gymnast on your hands. So, the combination of mental and physical makes a good gymnast. And of course, with the great ones, then you're getting to the point, you try, you know, to remember, wow, how was the other one? Probably the same. None of them. There is no two people on the world that are completely identical.
Yes, of course, you've got them all differently. You've got to figure out their strengths and their weaknesses, to play with it, always being behind them as a motivational force. Then at the right time, at the right time, let's go for it, sonny (INAUDIBLE), we're going to win, we're going to get it.
PHILLIPS: You know, I need you in here motivating me every day, because you're getting me excited just sitting here. I love you. I want a gold medal.
Are you -- talk about that mental strength, Kerry Strug -- we'll never forget that picture of you holding her when she -- she broke her ankle, or she twisted her ankle...
KAROLYI: She hurt her ankle badly, yes.
PHILLIPS: ... and still went on, yes, to win the gold. I mean, you talk about mental and physical strength, she wasn't going to give up.
KAROLYI: You know, I was so proud of her, because we had (INAUDIBLE) precedent. And we had great young kids coming up. But the perception was, well, this pitiful (ph) little kids, they're like robots. You turn them on, they bump (ph), they jump, and they smile.
Well, they are not robots. They are high -- I mean, highly, highly educated. I mean highly -- high moral characters. I mean, these people (INAUDIBLE) having lion heart in them. These little young ladies are true athletes. And I was so -- it was so great to see her. It was so great to see her fighting through her difficult situation, fighting through the pain, and anchoring the gold. Wow!
PHILLIPS: Well, and now, your wife is over there. She's coaching. Are you jealous?
But then again, you told me you went over there and you were sort of like, OK, honey, don't forget this, don't forget that.
KAROLYI: I'm so proud of her. I'm very, very proud of her. She's really united the team. She made a tremendous job on behalf of the team. She united the coaches, try to get them together, and the result is amazing. Amazing. Congratulations to her.
And I'm -- yes, from time to time, I'm a little bit (INAUDIBLE), but not a whole lot.
PHILLIPS: I'll tell you what, if I have a daughter or a son, I am sending them both to you. You are amazing. You are such an inspiration. Thanks for stopping by today.
KAROLYI: Oh, thank you, thank you. It's my pleasure.
PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure to have you here. I know you're touring around. You're meeting with champions.
KAROLYI: Oh, the T.J. Maxx Tour of Olympic Gymnastic Champions is coming up. This is the greatest reward. I'm serious now. This is the greatest reward for our young athletes. They're all excited about it, and they put up a great show.
So, everyone is invited to come and to see the T.J. Maxx Tour of Olympic Gymnast Champions.
PHILLIPS: Just to meet you would be a pleasure.
KAROLYI: Thank you. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you so much Bela Karolyi. What a pleasure -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, Bela gets a gold medal for getting the plug in, for sure. Absolutely.
More fallout this afternoon from the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. It's actually a prisoner abuse scandal that extends beyond Abu Ghraib. Live pictures from the Pentagon. Another day, another report -- different report. Calls into question some other players in this whole scandal. We'll bring that report's release to you live as it happens, of course.
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