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Cleland and Bush's War of Letters; Kerry's Military History Still Being Questioned

Aired August 25, 2004 - 14:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In the news right now: Russian officials hoping flight data and cockpit voice recorders can provide clues in two near-simultaneous plane crashes far away from each other. Authorities say preliminary investigations have not uncovered signs of terrorist acts. The planes crashed within minutes of each other after departing from the same Moscow airport. Eighty-nine passengers and crew were killed in all.
A new report on the Abu Ghraib Prison scandal is out, released about a half hour ago. It says abuse at the Iraq prison was known by some military leaders before allegations surfaced. The report finds 44 instances of detainee abuse involving military personnel and contractors.

The son of the former British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, under house arrest in South Africa. Mark Thatcher accused of helping finance a coup plot to overflow -- overthrow , I should say, the West African nation of Equatorial Guinea. Earlier this year more than 70 suspected mercenaries, mostly South Africans, were arrested for their alleged plan to help carry out that coup.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The battle of the boat ads turned into dueling letters. Are both the Kerry and Bush camps trying to capitalize on the attention of the ads brought to their campaigns? Joining us to talk about it and probably yell about it, co-hosts of CNN's "CROSSFIRE," Tucker Carlson, Paul Begala.

I'm sure glad Tucker made it. I heard you fell into the fountain and lost your cell phone, Tucker.

(LAUGHTER)

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": There's a lot of drama here in New York, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Speaking of drama...

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, Tucker was running late. He and I were at the men's buffet at Scores (ph), which is one of the fine establishments here.

PHILLIPS: Excellent!

CARLSON: The food is good, actually.

PHILLIPS: Yes. You are well fed, you are ready to go. You talk about the drama. How about the drama taking place. Max Cleland, he has got this memo, he wants to deliver it to Bush. And the Republicans come out and say, hey, we have got a letter. I mean, do you guys pass notes to each other when you are trying to communicate, also?

BEGALA: We use a sophisticated set of hand gestures...

CARLSON: It's not so sophisticated, in fact.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: All right. What do you guys make of this? Paul, why don't you start.

BEGALA: Look, there is a serious element to it. But let me start with the childish element which is -- I mean, letters back and forth. The president's team has their letter attacking Kerry. It turns out Bush doesn't much like Kerry. Kerry doesn't much like Bush.

The problem here is that this kicks the story one more time, one more day. I don't think it's a good story for John Kerry. Probably not all that good a story for George Bush, to tell you the truth. His campaign looks increasingly tainted by this right wing attack.

But my favorite part was Jerry Patterson who we carried live. He's the Texas land commissioner who spoke on behalf of President Bush. Your viewers should know, Patterson, when he was in the state legislature, is the guy who wrote the law that says we Texans can carry guns in church and at amusement parks and in nursing homes. So, that's the kind of right-wing wackjob they've got. I love Jerry Patterson.

CARLSON: I don't know. You never know when you're going to need a gun. And people have the right to carry a gun. That's a whole different show.

BEGALA: Father O'Malley? Father O'Malley may...

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: That wasn't your question. Depends on what kind of church you go to I guess.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: I go to a pretty rough church, Kyra. But look, the point is...

PHILLIPS: I'm surprised you go to church, Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, yes, I do.

BEGALA: Cover me.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: There's a scramble for the communion wine. But look...

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: ... as a political matter, there are too many messages. So, yesterday's message from the Kerry campaign was, we don't want to talk about Vietnam. After two years of beating us over the head every single day in every stump speech with the idea that John Kerry ought to be president because he's a war hero, the message yesterday was, we want to talk about the issues.

Kerry came to New York, spoke at Cooper Union about the economy and America's future, not his past. And yet today it's the Kerry campaign that is taking this story one step further by sending poor Max Cleland out to Texas with some letter in this, as you pointed out, kind of bizarro piece of political theater.

I'm not really sure tactically what the point is. I think Kerry people believe, and maybe they're right, that every day we spend talking about Vietnam is good for John Kerry because he went and George W. Bush didn't.

I'm not so sure that's true. I don't really know, actually. But that must be their calculation.

PHILLIPS: So, if the president comes forward and just denounces these ads: all right, let's stop this. Let's stop going back and forth, let's move on. Is that the answer or -- that's probably never going to happen. Tucker, you would have to probably pray for that in your church.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, look, he has sort of done that. I personally think the principled stand on Bush's part, and I wish he'd take it, is to say this: John Kerry has a point of view, he tells you he wants you to judge his Vietnam record. Here are some of his fellow veterans doing just that.

Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. Judge for yourself. They have a right to speak. The Kerry campaign has tried to squelch them, tried to get the federal government to pull their ads off the air. And that's wrong. That's what Bush ought to say. Instead he's on the defensive and having to denounce these people, how would Bush know, he wasn't in Vietnam? Let the veterans speak about Vietnam.

PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Paul, then we're going to move onto the next subject, go ahead.

BEGALA: Right. The problem is there have been some elements of the story that have tainted President Bush. A lot of voters think that he's behind it because he clearly is benefiting from it. And one his members of his steering committee for veterans turns out to be one of the guys buying this and the fundraisers for Bush are fund-raising for this and donating to this.

So, there is that problem. But the more fundamental problem is, these swift boat veterans have a right to their own opinion but not a right to their own facts. And they have made allegations that are factually false, that are disproved by the Naval record, that are disproved by their own previous comments, comments that they made when they weren't in the heat of a political campaign.

And so, I think the fact that the president refuses to denounce something that is factually false makes him look like kind of a bit of a coward. It's like he wouldn't go out and meet Max Cleland today. He keeps hiding behind this wackjob, the gun-in-church guy. Now he's hiding behind the Swift Boat Veterans. He ought to just stand up, be a man, and say, look, I like these ads or I don't like these ads instead of trying to have it both ways.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about gay marriage. Am I in support of gay marriage, am I not in support of gay marriage. That's a question being asked of Dick Cheney here coming forward, talking about his gay daughter, talking about gay marriage. Now why all of a sudden now? I think we can probably put the pieces together, but previously this is someone who has just supported the president, really hasn't come out and said I'm behind my daughter 100 percent, right?

CARLSON: Well, I think any of us who have children can really feel for Dick Cheney. I mean, you know, it's an interesting and I think important question whether or not gay marriage ought to be legal and sanctioned by society. But Dick Cheney intersects with this issue in a very personal way because his daughter is a lesbian. And so, you do sort of wish that would be off limits.

I mean, Dick Cheney is entitled to his own views, whatever they are, without reference to his family in this kind of intimate, I think, sort of intrusive way. Good for Dick Cheney though for taking a stand that is contrary to what the administration says. He's not being sanctioned for it.

In fact, Dick Cheney is taking a stand that John Kerry won't take, to the left of John Kerry. John Kerry is against gay marriage. OK? Keep that in mind. John Kerry, against gay marriage.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about the timing, though. All of a sudden now he is coming forward and talking about this. I mean, when was the last time he talked about it, Paul?

BEGALA: Well, it was several months ago. He was asked though and he responded candidly and honestly. And I do admire that. But it does show you how very decisive the issue is.

It's even dividing the president from his vice president, it's dividing families. And there's no need for the president to be trying to take such a decisive issue and shoehorning it into the Constitution when just a few months ago President Bush himself had the same position as Dick Cheney, which is states should be able to decide this.

Well, states are deciding it, Jerry Falwell doesn't like that. And so, now Bush has flip-flopped and taken the Jerry Falwell position. Good for Dick Cheney for continuing to keep the Dick Cheney position, which is the same, actually, as John Kerry's. CARLSON: But...

BEGALA: It's a political deal and I think it's disgraceful for the president to divide people on something...

CARLSON: That's possibly an effective talking point, certainly a pretty good bumper sticker. But it's just not true.

BEGALA: It's true.

CARLSON: Hold on, in real life, think about it, Kyra...

BEGALA: (INAUDIBLE)

CARLSON: Let me finish my point.

BEGALA: ... dividing us.

CARLSON: In real life, it's a divisive issue by its nature. That's no individual's fault.

PHILLIPS: That's true.

CARLSON: In real life you need to have a national standard. So, you are going to have gay marriage legal in one state and not another? So, you go to Disneyland on vacation you are not legally married? That's insane. We have to have a national standard for gay marriage no matter what side of the issue you're on, you recognize that. That's just the demand of modern life. Sorry.

BEGALA: No it's not.

CARLSON: Yes, it is.

PHILLIPS: Tucker, speaking of Disneyland, if you guys turn around, you guys are like a show at the amusement park because you're getting all kinds of -- yes, give a way to all your fans back there. They all want to be on TV.

CARLSON: There's Bill Hemmer. I don't know if you can see him.

BEGALA: Oh my goodness!

CARLSON: Ladies and gentlemen...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: You ought to pull him into the shot.

There's Bill Hemmer.

BEGALA: Call security.

Hemmer, come on over here!

(LAUGHTER) PHILLIPS: Bill never gets enough face time on "AMERICAN MORNING" so he has got to do a little cameo with the "CROSSFIRE" guys. That was a shameless promo.

CARLSON: We love New York.

BEGALA: We love New York, and we love Hemmer. You know, he does a few laps in the pool here during commercials on "AMERICAN MORNING."

PHILLIPS: Why don't you throw Hemmer into the fountain to find your cell phone, Tucker.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: That is next, that is next, Kyra.

BEGALA: That's a great idea.

CARLSON: Thanks for the tip, actually, I like that.

PHILLIPS: No problem. Tucker, Paul, -- Miles, did you want to add something?

O'BRIEN: I just think we should start stalking other people's shows. I think it's a great idea.

PHILLIPS: OK. Should we start stalking FOX News?

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: No, no, let's not go there. All right. Bill Hemmer and then all those folks in the background as well as the "CROSSFIRE"

PHILLIPS: 4:30 Eastern. Can't forget the "CROSSFIRE" hosts. Our favorite, Paul and Tucker. But we don't really want to say that because then we might upset Bob and...

O'BRIEN: No, we love them all. Absolutely. All right. We are not done here yet, of course. Longtime CNN viewers will remember our next guest, a familiar face, does some fact checking on that swift boat controversy with me up next.

And you think the national debate gets nasty in a political season, check out Spain. It's tomato season. I don't know -- oh yes, there's Bill Hemmer.

PHILLIPS: There's Bill Hemmer.

O'BRIEN: LIVE FROM is ordering...

PHILLIPS: Marinara.

O'BRIEN: It's Marinara sauce. Yes, I get it.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Those attacks ads that take fire at John Kerry's Vietnam experience during and after the war remain very much in play today as Max Cleland and his entourage made their appearance in Crawford a little while ago.

They focused on the ad that calls into question Senator Kerry's performance under fire. But there is another ad from the same truth squad. This one raises questions about Kerry's experience opposing the war after he returned from Vietnam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam was just devastating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That is just a brief excerpt. You have probably seen the whole thing. It's entitled "Sell Out." Let's put the truth meter on this one.

Brooks Jackson is the director of factcheck.org. He joins me now live from Washington. Brooks, good to see your face back here on CNN.

Brooks, first of all, that little excerpt there, makes it sound as if at that time, I guess, Lieutenant Kerry, or formerly -- I don't know if he had left the service at that very moment. Nevertheless, John Kerry seems to be making accusation against veterans. Is that accurate?

BROOKS JACKSON, DIRECTOR, FACTCHECK.ORG: That's the allegation. You heard one of the Swift Boat Veterans say the -- Kerry was making allegations against the veterans who served in Vietnam. What Kerry says is that he wasn't blaming the veterans, he was careful to blame the leaders, the people who gave the orders for things like free fire zones and search and destroy missions.

If you read the full text of what he said in the 1971 testimony, there's one place when he's questioned about the My Lai massacre where he makes that point. There are other places in 1971 when he gave that testimony when he was much more careful to make that distinction. He was a little less careful in the '71 testimony itself.

Bottom line, a lot of people heard it as an allegation against veterans, back 33 years ago and some of them still do. Opinions are just going to vary on that. They varied on that for a whole generation and that's not going to stop now.

O'BRIEN: But if you read a lot of it in its full context, transcript-type stuff, what he's saying is he's blaming really high- level decisions and not necessarily people on the ground themselves. JACKSON: Well, again, that came up in one place in his '71 testimony when he was specifically asked about the My Lai massacre. He said that was the fault of higher ups.

He was more careful to make those kinds of distinctions in places other than the 1971 Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony being cited here

Now, viewers can read that whole testimony for themselves. It's posted on various Web sites. There's a link to it on our Web site. You may want to go back if you want to re-litigate this 33-year-old controversy and take a look at it.

O'BRIEN: All right, there's the site -- factcheck.org. This is a great place to go all throughout the campaign season to find out the facts of it.

Out of context -- that phrase is used repeatedly by people who feel that -- whatever -- they haven't been represented properly. Does out of context -- does that phrase really apply in this particular case?

JACKSON: Right, Miles. What the Kerry campaign says is this was edited. It was taken out of context in a distorted way.

Now, of course, we're neutral. We're at the Annenberg Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania where I hang my hat. We try to be an advocate for voters here. And you have you to say, there is some missing context here.

The missing context is that Kerry was not alleging that these things happened as a matter of personal knowledge. He didn't claim to be an eyewitness to any of this, as that ad might make it sound to some people. He was quoting things that had been said earlier at an anti-war event called the Winter Soldier Investigation in Detroit

He was quoting other veterans as saying they had done these things and seen these things. That's lost in the ad. Whether that makes a difference to viewers or not, they'll have to decide for themselves. But Kerry was not claiming firsthand knowledge. He was passing on secondhand stories.

He never expressed disbelief. He was passing them on as true. But it is a distinction that's lost in that ad.

O'BRIEN: All right, we're really out of time. But bottom line, based on the facts, is this one over the top?

JACKSON: Well, that's a -- different people are going to come to different opinions on that when they look at the full record -- which you can't do in four minutes, obviously.

It's -- Kerry says many of the things that he said, even if they were secondhand, were later documented. And you have to say if you look at the history of the Vietnam war and the memoirs in histories, and even a recent Pulitzer Prize winning report just last year that's come out, he's right. Many of the things that he described did happen in Vietnam.

O'BRIEN: Brooks Jackson with factcheck.org. Thanks very much for using the truth meter for us. And we'll check back with you as the campaign progresses.

Thanks very much.

JACKSON: My pleasure, Miles. Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, here it comes again.

O'BRIEN: That Spanish pastime. It's really -- it's really like a national sport there. The tomato season -- I think we've done this every year in one form or another.

PHILLIPS: Running of the bulls.

O'BRIEN: It's like the water skiing squirrel. It's one of those things that keeps coming back. There it is -- the old tomato mush.

PHILLIPS: The cat rescued from the tree story.

O'BRIEN: Yes, you really don't need to say anything about it. You just watch it and just kind of...

PHILLIPS: Gross out?

O'BRIEN: ... wish -- be glad you're not even...

PHILLIPS: See a bunch of overweight men throwing tomatoes?

O'BRIEN: Turn it off. We'll see you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Who says it's too early to order a cold one?

O'BRIEN: You know, you look like an Iron City kind of girl -- I'm sorry, woman. Iron City woman.

PHILLIPS: See i got e-mails about that, by the way.

O'BRIEN: I bet you did. I bet you did, girlie-girl.

PHILLIPS: Women, not girls.

O'BRIEN: All right, women, not girls. Rhonda Schaffler, who has tipped a few Iron Citys in her day, I'm sure.

PHILLIPS: She likes a good cold one.

O'BRIEN: You got to keep them cold, right?

RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SR. BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, after working with you guys, you know, you need one of those.

PHILLIPS: Thanks, Rhonda. We love you, too. Don't go changing.

SCHAFFLER: I'm kidding. I'm kidding, of course, too.

But leave it to Iron City to come up with an innovation that is going to actually cool you down on these final dog days of summer.

There's a new bottle of beer that stays cold for an extra hour. Pittsburgh Brewing Company has teamed up with Alcoa, which is based in Pittsburgh, to create aluminum bottles for its Iron City beer.

So, how does it stay colder? The bottles contains three times the aluminum of a regular can. The colder beer comes with a bigger price tag. A case of aluminum bottled Iron City beer costs $1 extra.

If these new bottles are a hit, other big brewers like Coors and Anheuser-Busch could follow suit. And by the way, the last time Alcoa teamed up with Pittsburgh Brewing, they created can opener history with the first pop-top cans. That, in case you're wondering, was back in 1962 -- Miles and Kyra?

O'BRIEN: And of course, the rest is history there.

SCHAFFLER: Exactly.

O'BRIEN: I mean, really, think of the changes that brought on our country.

All right, let's talk about how things are going with oil prices. I don't get it. It seems like it's so random, the ups and downs of oil.

SCHAFFLER: It is in some way. but that's the way the market works. And right now, there are less concerns about demand and the import/export picture. That's combining to send oil prices sharply lower.

Call it an oil slick, if you will, because crude prices are falling almost $2 a barrel right now at about $43.50. That is a huge move and well off the intraday record set last week of nearly $50 a barrel.

So, because of that, stocks have been taking off: The Dow is now surging 90 points; Nasdaq up more than a quarter percent.

That is the very latest from Wall Street. CNN's LIVE FROM is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired August 25, 2004 - 14:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In the news right now: Russian officials hoping flight data and cockpit voice recorders can provide clues in two near-simultaneous plane crashes far away from each other. Authorities say preliminary investigations have not uncovered signs of terrorist acts. The planes crashed within minutes of each other after departing from the same Moscow airport. Eighty-nine passengers and crew were killed in all.
A new report on the Abu Ghraib Prison scandal is out, released about a half hour ago. It says abuse at the Iraq prison was known by some military leaders before allegations surfaced. The report finds 44 instances of detainee abuse involving military personnel and contractors.

The son of the former British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, under house arrest in South Africa. Mark Thatcher accused of helping finance a coup plot to overflow -- overthrow , I should say, the West African nation of Equatorial Guinea. Earlier this year more than 70 suspected mercenaries, mostly South Africans, were arrested for their alleged plan to help carry out that coup.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The battle of the boat ads turned into dueling letters. Are both the Kerry and Bush camps trying to capitalize on the attention of the ads brought to their campaigns? Joining us to talk about it and probably yell about it, co-hosts of CNN's "CROSSFIRE," Tucker Carlson, Paul Begala.

I'm sure glad Tucker made it. I heard you fell into the fountain and lost your cell phone, Tucker.

(LAUGHTER)

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": There's a lot of drama here in New York, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Speaking of drama...

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, Tucker was running late. He and I were at the men's buffet at Scores (ph), which is one of the fine establishments here.

PHILLIPS: Excellent!

CARLSON: The food is good, actually.

PHILLIPS: Yes. You are well fed, you are ready to go. You talk about the drama. How about the drama taking place. Max Cleland, he has got this memo, he wants to deliver it to Bush. And the Republicans come out and say, hey, we have got a letter. I mean, do you guys pass notes to each other when you are trying to communicate, also?

BEGALA: We use a sophisticated set of hand gestures...

CARLSON: It's not so sophisticated, in fact.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: All right. What do you guys make of this? Paul, why don't you start.

BEGALA: Look, there is a serious element to it. But let me start with the childish element which is -- I mean, letters back and forth. The president's team has their letter attacking Kerry. It turns out Bush doesn't much like Kerry. Kerry doesn't much like Bush.

The problem here is that this kicks the story one more time, one more day. I don't think it's a good story for John Kerry. Probably not all that good a story for George Bush, to tell you the truth. His campaign looks increasingly tainted by this right wing attack.

But my favorite part was Jerry Patterson who we carried live. He's the Texas land commissioner who spoke on behalf of President Bush. Your viewers should know, Patterson, when he was in the state legislature, is the guy who wrote the law that says we Texans can carry guns in church and at amusement parks and in nursing homes. So, that's the kind of right-wing wackjob they've got. I love Jerry Patterson.

CARLSON: I don't know. You never know when you're going to need a gun. And people have the right to carry a gun. That's a whole different show.

BEGALA: Father O'Malley? Father O'Malley may...

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: That wasn't your question. Depends on what kind of church you go to I guess.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: I go to a pretty rough church, Kyra. But look, the point is...

PHILLIPS: I'm surprised you go to church, Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, yes, I do.

BEGALA: Cover me.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: There's a scramble for the communion wine. But look...

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: ... as a political matter, there are too many messages. So, yesterday's message from the Kerry campaign was, we don't want to talk about Vietnam. After two years of beating us over the head every single day in every stump speech with the idea that John Kerry ought to be president because he's a war hero, the message yesterday was, we want to talk about the issues.

Kerry came to New York, spoke at Cooper Union about the economy and America's future, not his past. And yet today it's the Kerry campaign that is taking this story one step further by sending poor Max Cleland out to Texas with some letter in this, as you pointed out, kind of bizarro piece of political theater.

I'm not really sure tactically what the point is. I think Kerry people believe, and maybe they're right, that every day we spend talking about Vietnam is good for John Kerry because he went and George W. Bush didn't.

I'm not so sure that's true. I don't really know, actually. But that must be their calculation.

PHILLIPS: So, if the president comes forward and just denounces these ads: all right, let's stop this. Let's stop going back and forth, let's move on. Is that the answer or -- that's probably never going to happen. Tucker, you would have to probably pray for that in your church.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, look, he has sort of done that. I personally think the principled stand on Bush's part, and I wish he'd take it, is to say this: John Kerry has a point of view, he tells you he wants you to judge his Vietnam record. Here are some of his fellow veterans doing just that.

Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. Judge for yourself. They have a right to speak. The Kerry campaign has tried to squelch them, tried to get the federal government to pull their ads off the air. And that's wrong. That's what Bush ought to say. Instead he's on the defensive and having to denounce these people, how would Bush know, he wasn't in Vietnam? Let the veterans speak about Vietnam.

PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Paul, then we're going to move onto the next subject, go ahead.

BEGALA: Right. The problem is there have been some elements of the story that have tainted President Bush. A lot of voters think that he's behind it because he clearly is benefiting from it. And one his members of his steering committee for veterans turns out to be one of the guys buying this and the fundraisers for Bush are fund-raising for this and donating to this.

So, there is that problem. But the more fundamental problem is, these swift boat veterans have a right to their own opinion but not a right to their own facts. And they have made allegations that are factually false, that are disproved by the Naval record, that are disproved by their own previous comments, comments that they made when they weren't in the heat of a political campaign.

And so, I think the fact that the president refuses to denounce something that is factually false makes him look like kind of a bit of a coward. It's like he wouldn't go out and meet Max Cleland today. He keeps hiding behind this wackjob, the gun-in-church guy. Now he's hiding behind the Swift Boat Veterans. He ought to just stand up, be a man, and say, look, I like these ads or I don't like these ads instead of trying to have it both ways.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about gay marriage. Am I in support of gay marriage, am I not in support of gay marriage. That's a question being asked of Dick Cheney here coming forward, talking about his gay daughter, talking about gay marriage. Now why all of a sudden now? I think we can probably put the pieces together, but previously this is someone who has just supported the president, really hasn't come out and said I'm behind my daughter 100 percent, right?

CARLSON: Well, I think any of us who have children can really feel for Dick Cheney. I mean, you know, it's an interesting and I think important question whether or not gay marriage ought to be legal and sanctioned by society. But Dick Cheney intersects with this issue in a very personal way because his daughter is a lesbian. And so, you do sort of wish that would be off limits.

I mean, Dick Cheney is entitled to his own views, whatever they are, without reference to his family in this kind of intimate, I think, sort of intrusive way. Good for Dick Cheney though for taking a stand that is contrary to what the administration says. He's not being sanctioned for it.

In fact, Dick Cheney is taking a stand that John Kerry won't take, to the left of John Kerry. John Kerry is against gay marriage. OK? Keep that in mind. John Kerry, against gay marriage.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about the timing, though. All of a sudden now he is coming forward and talking about this. I mean, when was the last time he talked about it, Paul?

BEGALA: Well, it was several months ago. He was asked though and he responded candidly and honestly. And I do admire that. But it does show you how very decisive the issue is.

It's even dividing the president from his vice president, it's dividing families. And there's no need for the president to be trying to take such a decisive issue and shoehorning it into the Constitution when just a few months ago President Bush himself had the same position as Dick Cheney, which is states should be able to decide this.

Well, states are deciding it, Jerry Falwell doesn't like that. And so, now Bush has flip-flopped and taken the Jerry Falwell position. Good for Dick Cheney for continuing to keep the Dick Cheney position, which is the same, actually, as John Kerry's. CARLSON: But...

BEGALA: It's a political deal and I think it's disgraceful for the president to divide people on something...

CARLSON: That's possibly an effective talking point, certainly a pretty good bumper sticker. But it's just not true.

BEGALA: It's true.

CARLSON: Hold on, in real life, think about it, Kyra...

BEGALA: (INAUDIBLE)

CARLSON: Let me finish my point.

BEGALA: ... dividing us.

CARLSON: In real life, it's a divisive issue by its nature. That's no individual's fault.

PHILLIPS: That's true.

CARLSON: In real life you need to have a national standard. So, you are going to have gay marriage legal in one state and not another? So, you go to Disneyland on vacation you are not legally married? That's insane. We have to have a national standard for gay marriage no matter what side of the issue you're on, you recognize that. That's just the demand of modern life. Sorry.

BEGALA: No it's not.

CARLSON: Yes, it is.

PHILLIPS: Tucker, speaking of Disneyland, if you guys turn around, you guys are like a show at the amusement park because you're getting all kinds of -- yes, give a way to all your fans back there. They all want to be on TV.

CARLSON: There's Bill Hemmer. I don't know if you can see him.

BEGALA: Oh my goodness!

CARLSON: Ladies and gentlemen...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: You ought to pull him into the shot.

There's Bill Hemmer.

BEGALA: Call security.

Hemmer, come on over here!

(LAUGHTER) PHILLIPS: Bill never gets enough face time on "AMERICAN MORNING" so he has got to do a little cameo with the "CROSSFIRE" guys. That was a shameless promo.

CARLSON: We love New York.

BEGALA: We love New York, and we love Hemmer. You know, he does a few laps in the pool here during commercials on "AMERICAN MORNING."

PHILLIPS: Why don't you throw Hemmer into the fountain to find your cell phone, Tucker.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: That is next, that is next, Kyra.

BEGALA: That's a great idea.

CARLSON: Thanks for the tip, actually, I like that.

PHILLIPS: No problem. Tucker, Paul, -- Miles, did you want to add something?

O'BRIEN: I just think we should start stalking other people's shows. I think it's a great idea.

PHILLIPS: OK. Should we start stalking FOX News?

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: No, no, let's not go there. All right. Bill Hemmer and then all those folks in the background as well as the "CROSSFIRE"

PHILLIPS: 4:30 Eastern. Can't forget the "CROSSFIRE" hosts. Our favorite, Paul and Tucker. But we don't really want to say that because then we might upset Bob and...

O'BRIEN: No, we love them all. Absolutely. All right. We are not done here yet, of course. Longtime CNN viewers will remember our next guest, a familiar face, does some fact checking on that swift boat controversy with me up next.

And you think the national debate gets nasty in a political season, check out Spain. It's tomato season. I don't know -- oh yes, there's Bill Hemmer.

PHILLIPS: There's Bill Hemmer.

O'BRIEN: LIVE FROM is ordering...

PHILLIPS: Marinara.

O'BRIEN: It's Marinara sauce. Yes, I get it.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Those attacks ads that take fire at John Kerry's Vietnam experience during and after the war remain very much in play today as Max Cleland and his entourage made their appearance in Crawford a little while ago.

They focused on the ad that calls into question Senator Kerry's performance under fire. But there is another ad from the same truth squad. This one raises questions about Kerry's experience opposing the war after he returned from Vietnam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam was just devastating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That is just a brief excerpt. You have probably seen the whole thing. It's entitled "Sell Out." Let's put the truth meter on this one.

Brooks Jackson is the director of factcheck.org. He joins me now live from Washington. Brooks, good to see your face back here on CNN.

Brooks, first of all, that little excerpt there, makes it sound as if at that time, I guess, Lieutenant Kerry, or formerly -- I don't know if he had left the service at that very moment. Nevertheless, John Kerry seems to be making accusation against veterans. Is that accurate?

BROOKS JACKSON, DIRECTOR, FACTCHECK.ORG: That's the allegation. You heard one of the Swift Boat Veterans say the -- Kerry was making allegations against the veterans who served in Vietnam. What Kerry says is that he wasn't blaming the veterans, he was careful to blame the leaders, the people who gave the orders for things like free fire zones and search and destroy missions.

If you read the full text of what he said in the 1971 testimony, there's one place when he's questioned about the My Lai massacre where he makes that point. There are other places in 1971 when he gave that testimony when he was much more careful to make that distinction. He was a little less careful in the '71 testimony itself.

Bottom line, a lot of people heard it as an allegation against veterans, back 33 years ago and some of them still do. Opinions are just going to vary on that. They varied on that for a whole generation and that's not going to stop now.

O'BRIEN: But if you read a lot of it in its full context, transcript-type stuff, what he's saying is he's blaming really high- level decisions and not necessarily people on the ground themselves. JACKSON: Well, again, that came up in one place in his '71 testimony when he was specifically asked about the My Lai massacre. He said that was the fault of higher ups.

He was more careful to make those kinds of distinctions in places other than the 1971 Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony being cited here

Now, viewers can read that whole testimony for themselves. It's posted on various Web sites. There's a link to it on our Web site. You may want to go back if you want to re-litigate this 33-year-old controversy and take a look at it.

O'BRIEN: All right, there's the site -- factcheck.org. This is a great place to go all throughout the campaign season to find out the facts of it.

Out of context -- that phrase is used repeatedly by people who feel that -- whatever -- they haven't been represented properly. Does out of context -- does that phrase really apply in this particular case?

JACKSON: Right, Miles. What the Kerry campaign says is this was edited. It was taken out of context in a distorted way.

Now, of course, we're neutral. We're at the Annenberg Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania where I hang my hat. We try to be an advocate for voters here. And you have you to say, there is some missing context here.

The missing context is that Kerry was not alleging that these things happened as a matter of personal knowledge. He didn't claim to be an eyewitness to any of this, as that ad might make it sound to some people. He was quoting things that had been said earlier at an anti-war event called the Winter Soldier Investigation in Detroit

He was quoting other veterans as saying they had done these things and seen these things. That's lost in the ad. Whether that makes a difference to viewers or not, they'll have to decide for themselves. But Kerry was not claiming firsthand knowledge. He was passing on secondhand stories.

He never expressed disbelief. He was passing them on as true. But it is a distinction that's lost in that ad.

O'BRIEN: All right, we're really out of time. But bottom line, based on the facts, is this one over the top?

JACKSON: Well, that's a -- different people are going to come to different opinions on that when they look at the full record -- which you can't do in four minutes, obviously.

It's -- Kerry says many of the things that he said, even if they were secondhand, were later documented. And you have to say if you look at the history of the Vietnam war and the memoirs in histories, and even a recent Pulitzer Prize winning report just last year that's come out, he's right. Many of the things that he described did happen in Vietnam.

O'BRIEN: Brooks Jackson with factcheck.org. Thanks very much for using the truth meter for us. And we'll check back with you as the campaign progresses.

Thanks very much.

JACKSON: My pleasure, Miles. Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, here it comes again.

O'BRIEN: That Spanish pastime. It's really -- it's really like a national sport there. The tomato season -- I think we've done this every year in one form or another.

PHILLIPS: Running of the bulls.

O'BRIEN: It's like the water skiing squirrel. It's one of those things that keeps coming back. There it is -- the old tomato mush.

PHILLIPS: The cat rescued from the tree story.

O'BRIEN: Yes, you really don't need to say anything about it. You just watch it and just kind of...

PHILLIPS: Gross out?

O'BRIEN: ... wish -- be glad you're not even...

PHILLIPS: See a bunch of overweight men throwing tomatoes?

O'BRIEN: Turn it off. We'll see you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Who says it's too early to order a cold one?

O'BRIEN: You know, you look like an Iron City kind of girl -- I'm sorry, woman. Iron City woman.

PHILLIPS: See i got e-mails about that, by the way.

O'BRIEN: I bet you did. I bet you did, girlie-girl.

PHILLIPS: Women, not girls.

O'BRIEN: All right, women, not girls. Rhonda Schaffler, who has tipped a few Iron Citys in her day, I'm sure.

PHILLIPS: She likes a good cold one.

O'BRIEN: You got to keep them cold, right?

RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN SR. BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, after working with you guys, you know, you need one of those.

PHILLIPS: Thanks, Rhonda. We love you, too. Don't go changing.

SCHAFFLER: I'm kidding. I'm kidding, of course, too.

But leave it to Iron City to come up with an innovation that is going to actually cool you down on these final dog days of summer.

There's a new bottle of beer that stays cold for an extra hour. Pittsburgh Brewing Company has teamed up with Alcoa, which is based in Pittsburgh, to create aluminum bottles for its Iron City beer.

So, how does it stay colder? The bottles contains three times the aluminum of a regular can. The colder beer comes with a bigger price tag. A case of aluminum bottled Iron City beer costs $1 extra.

If these new bottles are a hit, other big brewers like Coors and Anheuser-Busch could follow suit. And by the way, the last time Alcoa teamed up with Pittsburgh Brewing, they created can opener history with the first pop-top cans. That, in case you're wondering, was back in 1962 -- Miles and Kyra?

O'BRIEN: And of course, the rest is history there.

SCHAFFLER: Exactly.

O'BRIEN: I mean, really, think of the changes that brought on our country.

All right, let's talk about how things are going with oil prices. I don't get it. It seems like it's so random, the ups and downs of oil.

SCHAFFLER: It is in some way. but that's the way the market works. And right now, there are less concerns about demand and the import/export picture. That's combining to send oil prices sharply lower.

Call it an oil slick, if you will, because crude prices are falling almost $2 a barrel right now at about $43.50. That is a huge move and well off the intraday record set last week of nearly $50 a barrel.

So, because of that, stocks have been taking off: The Dow is now surging 90 points; Nasdaq up more than a quarter percent.

That is the very latest from Wall Street. CNN's LIVE FROM is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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