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Peace Deal Reached in Najaf?; Interview With Rulon Gardner
Aired August 26, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, we want to welcome our international viewers, as we continue our breaking news coverage.
We're beginning this hour with an apparent breakthrough in Najaf, an agreement between Najaf's highest-profile holy men to end we think a long and bloody standoff between the younger cleric's militia and Iraq's post-occupation government.
We don't know all the details yet -- we're getting them in by the minute -- except that they all came together just mere hours after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, 73 years old and ailing, made a dramatic return to the Shiite heartland after medical treatment in London.
Al-Sistani and radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are expected to hold a news conference any moment now. We hope to bring that to you live as soon as it happens. We are told that this peace deal was actually made in the home of the Grand Ayatollah. They are no longer there, obviously getting ready for a possible news conference.
But we do want to go to our Matthew Chance. He joins us live from Najaf right now with possibly, hopefully, some details of this deal. What can you tell us, Matthew?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we're still waiting for this press conference to take place before we can actually sort of bring over to you the deal, the actual terms of this deal that seems to be about to be enacted by the representatives of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
Certainly, there was a great hope when he came back to Najaf just earlier today that this would be the beginning of the end of this long-running crisis that has left areas in Najaf ravaged in clashes between U.S. forces and Iraqi forces and of course militants loyal to the radical Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
But few people expected it would come this quickly, less than 24 hours since he arrived in country. Representatives of the Grand Ayatollah saying they have agreed a positive deal with Muqtada al-Sadr to bring to an end this long-running conflict with the Mehdi Army and U.S. and Iraqi forces.
They're assembled at the house of the Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani inside Najaf right now. Reporters have been called there to attend a news conference, which is to be addressed we believe by representatives at least of both Muqtada al-Sadr and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. We're waiting to see what the terms of this peace deal are to see exactly where it leaves Muqtada al-Sadr, to see where it leads as well his Mehdi Army.
Now, the interim Iraqi government have made it clear that one of the main things they've been looking for is this illegal Mehdi Militia, as they call it, the Mehdi Militia, to be disbanded. They've been holding out the possibility of Muqtada al-Sadr being embraced into the political fold.
But one of their big conditions for this to be sort of seen in any way as a success, for them to be seen as in any way maintaining their credibility is for that Mehdi Army be disbanded. So, we'll wait very carefully to hear what representatives of the Ayatollah have to say in this forthcoming press conference -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And as we await that press conference, Matthew, we're getting bits and pieces of information from this plan.
According to various reports, the plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, apparently something that has been discussed between these two men.
(CROSSTALK)
CHANCE: Well, you need to give me the update.
PHILLIPS: OK.
Also, right now, our Matthew Chance getting updated there in Najaf, as we start to get information here also in Atlanta at the home base here of CNN. All foreign forces withdrawing from Najaf and leaving security to the new Iraqi police. something else that has apparently been discussed between these two men, also for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting, fighting that you know we've been covering for a number of weeks now, battles between U.S. and Iraqi forces and supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In addition, it says here, according to this plan, that it calls for Najaf and Kufa, I guess sort of a sister city, to be declared weapons-free cities, and for foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and, as you said, leave their security to the police there.
Octavia Nasr of course been watching this very closely. We're sort of getting little bits of this deal as it kind of comes out.
I know you've been listening to a news conference by one of the representatives of the Grand Ayatollah. What have you heard in that news conference you can share with us?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, first of all, it Hamed Khafaf. He is a spokesperson for al-Sistani.
He went out and spoke to reporters and he made it very clear that this is only an appeal, an appeal to the Iraqi government to allow -- there he is. We're looking at him here. You can see a lot of emotions there and he's trying to calm everybody down. O'BRIEN: Wait. Let's be clear. When you say it's an appeal, they've had no back-channel communication, then, with the Iraqi government. They're negotiating in the media, is what you're saying, isn't it?
NASR: Right.
And he's sending out an appeal to the Iraqi government, basically. It's an interesting appeal, I would say. He's saying that thousands of people marched along with Sistani on his way from Basra to Najaf and the people are waiting outside. And he's appealing to the Iraqi government to allow these people into the holy sites, as long as they can leave it by 10:00 a.m. local time on Friday. It's an interesting appeal.
Why would they be appealing to the government to allow thousands of people in, into the shrine. And now he said, please take this message very seriously. I wonder why he's saying that? He did say that the people need to get in and they promised to leave by 10:00 a.m. on Friday local time. And he said this is very important for this to happen before we announce the actual deal that was stricken between al-Sadr and Sistani.
O'BRIEN: Well, naturally, I'm mystified as I sit and listen to that, except that I wonder if in some sense the Grand Ayatollah is playing to the crowd a little bit and trying to solidify his own support, although that goes without saying that he has widespread support, so why would that be necessary?
NASR: He does have widespread support. And we have to remember, it was him who called these thousands of people to march on the holy city of Najaf.
Now, some people in Arab media, some Arab experts were saying the reason he called on all these people to march on the city is to try to protect the holy sites, thinking that the Iraqi government and the U.S. forces are not going to attack the city when you have thousands of people.
O'BRIEN: So, potentially we're talking about this is a way to protect the mosque and the holy sites, human shields, if you will.
NASR: Right.
Now, his request, when he sends his man, al-Khafaf, to say this is an appeal to the Iraqi government to allow thousands of people to enter, this is something coming out of the negotiations. It's a direct effect of those negotiations. And he's saying, take this appeal very seriously. Allow these people in, so that we can go on, basically.
Now, someone in the crowd, one of the journalists asked, is this a condition? And he said, no, this is not a condition. This is an appeal. It's matter of semantics.
(CROSSTALK) O'BRIEN: What does your gut tell you? Is that going to be allowed? Do you think, given the dynamics of the situation, the only answer can be, yes, let them in, right?
NASR: Well, the Arab media are very careful with this.
They have been portraying this interim government as being stubborn a little bit, someone with big words, but little action, sort of. So, if you base it on how Arab media have been portraying the story, it would seem like, no, the Iraqi government is not going to allow this to happen. And we probably need to wait for that he press conference that you talked about to see what really these two men agreed on. Maybe they didn't agree on anything at this point.
O'BRIEN: Wow.
NASR: If they're sending someone out to say let allow these people in before we announce the elements of this agreement, maybe there is no agreement yet.
O'BRIEN: Well, I hope we haven't gotten too far ahead of this story. Octavia Nasr, thank you. Stay plugged in. Come back. Give us some more information as you get it.
NASR: OK.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: As you can imagine, a number of pieces kind of being put together, various reports talking about this peace plan that has been brokered between these two leaders, a plan possibly calling for all groups in Najaf to lay down their arms, also asking U.S. forces to leave the city. Is this a part of the deal or not?
We want to go to CNN producer Kianne Sadeq. She is just outside of the home of the Grand Ayatollah, where apparently this peace deal was made.
Let's talk more about those negotiations, possibly more details about what was reached.
Kianne, what can you tell us?
KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER: Yes, Kyra.
I just walked out of the house of Sheik Grand Ayatollah al- Sistani where he is staying here in Najaf. We were told by his deputies that he had just been meeting with Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr in his house face-to-face. And his spokesman, Hamed al-Khafaf has told -- held a press conference there, telling all the press that all five points have been agreed on, those five points being that all armed persons leave Kufa and Najaf and that there will be no arms in Kufa and Najaf, also that the multinational forces will leave Najaf.
They also said that they wanted compensation for those people who have been affected who are victims of this crisis, and that there will be legitimate elections in Iraq. Now, Hamed al-Khafaf have just told us that all sides have agreed on these conditions and that Muqtada al- Sadr -- Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani have come to an agreement with this and they hope to carry out these five points in the soonest, shortest time possible -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: That's our Kianne Sadeq reporting there outside of the home where apparently this peace deal was made.
Kianne, I am just going to repeat those five points of this apparent peace plan that you pointed out: a plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, that is that all groups in that area lay down their weapons; also that foreign forces are to withdraw from Najaf, as in U.S. force withdrawing from Najaf; leaving the security to the Iraqi police there; and also for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting that's been taking place over the past three weeks there between U.S. and Iraqi forces and supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr; and finally, that legitimate elections be held.
Kianne, if you're still with me there via -- OK, we've lost Kianne Sadeq. She's still there.
Kianne, are you still with me?
SADEQ: Kyra, yes, I am.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Great.
I was reviewing those five points that you laid out from this plan apparently that has been reached by these two men. What can you tell us about what's next for these two? Where exactly will the Grand Ayatollah go from here? Muqtada al-Sadr, where will he go from here and how does this plan -- will this plan go before Iraq's new prime minister and also the generals of the U.S. military that are working side by side with Iraq's new prime minister to try and find peace in this area specifically?
SADEQ: Yes.
Well, it is unclear right now.
As I asked Hamed al-Khafaf, the deputy, the top spokesman for Sheik Ali al-Sistani. He has told me that we will just resume, we will just continue to work an carrying out these five points in the soonest way possible. But he said that we will be normal and we will be here in Najaf, as we normally are, as we normally are operating.
Now, as for the whereabouts of Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr or where he will go next, it is unclear at this time, for I have not yet spoken to the spokesman for Muqtada al-Sadr or have had any official word from them. But as Hamed al-Khafaf has told us, that they will be here in Najaf, as they normally are, except for right now, they will be efforting to carry out these five points and make them happen in the soonest way possible. PHILLIPS: Kianne Sadeq, our CNN producer there on the scene, thanks so much.
The five points that she pointed about, five points that she is talking about, once again, a quick review before we move on, if you're just tuning in, breaking news. A peace deal apparently has been reached between rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and also the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, as you know, the Ayatollah that is revered there in that region. Apparently, they have come to a deal, agreeing to five points.
That is that Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, for all foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and leave security to the Iraq police, and for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting that has been taking place over the past three weeks, fighting that has called for a death toll of about 73 people to date, also calling for part of this plan, legitimate elections -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Joining us now on the set is our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, who has spent a lot of time in that part of the world.
Nic, is it possible -- and I don't want to get too far ahead of this story as well on this, but is it possible we've seen the brief flame-out of Muqtada al-Sadr, having risen to great success and wearing out his welcome for that tactic of using the mosque as a shelter?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't think so. I don't think we're seeing the end of Muqtada al-Sadr.
He's been very careful in growing a base of support. If one looks to when the interim government was first announced last year, that was the day, when his name wasn't on that first list of 25 people, that he first began to make himself heard. He started growing a base of support back in Kufa and many other towns around the country. So, I don't think we are going to see the end of him through this deal today.
O'BRIEN: Now, in the mind of an Iraqi Shia, is there a decision to be made at this point between the Grand Ayatollah, who of course has tremendous clout and influence and respect, and Muqtada al-Sadr? Or is there a way of following him and still owing some allegiance to Muqtada al-Sadr?
ROBERTSON: There has been that question for Iraqis for the last year or so, even before that, to which family they will follow. Will they follow Sadr because of his father? Will they follow Ali al- Sistani because of who he is and what he represents and his religious authority? That question I don't think will change for a lot of people.
They have made their decision on sort of who the right people are for them, who has the best voice to represent their interests. So, the question has already been asked and raised and answered in people's minds, I feel at this time. So, it seems unlikely that that is going to change. Sistani, of course, has a much greater following. He is much more revered. He has the religious authority. But Sadr speaks to the raw emotions in a lot of Iraqis. And that is that they want change and they want it now.
I don't think this issue will be settled on Sadr's future until the political future of Iraq is settled. As long as there is something out there for Muqtada al-Sadr to try and get ahold of in terms of political power, he'll be going for it.
O'BRIEN: Well, try to plug this to the political dynamic there now, which is obviously very much in flux. Clearly, if what we've been reporting bears itself out with facts on the ground, Sistani, his prestige already high, becomes even that much higher and he really walks away with tremendous political clout, should he choose to wield it.
Do you think there is some deal in there for Muqtada al-Sadr that has been brokered to allow this to end peacefully? In other words, what is the face-saving carrot that has been offered?
ROBERTSON: Well, the face-saving carrot is Ali al-Sistani going in to talk to him.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: But just his presence in a way raises his prestige of Sadr?
ROBERTSON: This gives Sadr the possibility to step away saving face from the situation, a situation in which in a way has corralled -- it's a no-win situation. Ultimately, he's going to be caught. This allows him to get out of that. It allows him to get out of it diplomatically, politically and religiously, saving face all the way down the line.
O'BRIEN: You have to ask -- the one question that comes up here is why this couldn't have been put together sooner and saved a lot of bloodshed?
ROBERTSON: It's a very interesting question. If one looks at some of the dynamics that have played out, Ali al-Sistani out of the country for a few weeks getting medical treatment, comes straight back in, who has been talking to him while he's been outside? Who has been persuading him outside of this sort of intense situation in Najaf that he really needs to step up to the plate? He's been doing it behind the scenes. This is the first time we've seen him.
Imagine the picture of him going into the meeting today. This is the first time we've seen him going in and actively getting engaged publicly in the politics. We have heard it from all behind the scenes before. But here he is getting engaged.
O'BRIEN: And one final thought here. Sistani of course hails from Iran. To what extent does this potential raise the specter of Iran being somehow meddling either overtly or behind the scenes in Iraqi politics? ROBERTSON: Well, how much does this raise the specter of Iraqi Shias wanting to become the real center of Shia world and take it from the Iranians?
O'BRIEN: Interesting.
All right, Nic Robertson, lots to consider here. Thank you very much. Good to have you in Atlanta working on another project and we appreciate your insights.
Back with more in just a moment. Stay with us as we continue our coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Eighteen months ago, NASA, we all actually lost the shuttle Columbia on reentry. It also lost the shuttle's access to space. And something else went missing as well, America's confidence in NASA.
Today, one year after an independent panel gave NASA a blueprint for returning to flight, the agency is trying to fix the shuttle and fix itself and get an American launch vehicle back into orbit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN (voice-over): The trip back to space begins but does not end with the space shuttle's external fuel tank. As we all know now, a piece of brittle insulating foam the size of a briefcase fell off Columbia's tank, blowing a fatally big hole in a heat shield on the orbiter's left wing, dooming the crew of seven during their fiery reentry on February 1, 2003. NASA engineers have spent countless hours the past year trying to stem the shedding foam.
SANDY COLEMAN, EXTERNAL TANK MANAGER: We've done significant amount of testing and analysis and that testing and analysis has shown us that we are good. It's not going to lose foam larger than would be allowable.
O'BRIEN: The foam is there to create a giant thermos for the super cold rocket fuel. NASA used the same material during the moon race except in those days then it was inside the rocket's skin. But to save money, shuttle designers put the insulation on the outside, literally out of its element.
NEIL OTTE, NASA: That foam not only has to perform thermally, but it has to perform structurally. In other words, it has got to hold together. And that is not the design solution that this foam was really or design problem that this foam was meant to solve.
O'BRIEN: NASA does not have the luxury of starting over with a completely new design. So, engineers at its Michoud tank production line near New Orleans have designed three major fixes for places on the tank most prone to shed big pieces of foam, including the crucial strut that links the orbiter's nose to the tank, the origin of the piece that inflicted the mortal room on Columbia. Foam there will be replaced with heaters. Elsewhere, techniques for applying the foam are now improved and there is new shielding to stop ice from forming.
HAL SIMONEAUX, LOCKHEED MARTIN: Any time you are going to fly with foam, you do run the risk of losing foam. I don't think it's possible to totally illuminate debris.
O'BRIEN: And if a piece of foam made a hole like this once again, the crew will still have no way of fixing it. So far, engineers cannot figure out how a spacewalker might patch the carbon panels at the leading edge of shuttle's wing.
RANDY AVERA, AEROSPACE ENGINEER: There's really not a lot that can be done in orbit to repair it to make it safe for reentry. And then we find ourselves back at the same spot that Columbia was during its 16-day mission in 2003.
O'BRIEN: So, NASA has focused on detecting a debris strike sooner, better cameras and radars on the ground at the cape and on board the shuttle. And for now, all missions will be destined for the International Space Station, which could provide a safe haven in orbit for a crew in need of a rescue mission.
(on camera): In all, the space agency has now completed five of the 15 prerequisites for flight that the Columbia Accident Investigation Board mandated last year.
The space agency says it will complete the remaining 10 by the end of this year, paving the way for the launch of the space shuttle Discovery perhaps by mid-March. In between now and then, the shuttle team must find way to deal with its lingering sense of anguish and sense of loss.
AVERA: It's confidence issue. You don't want to put your hand back in that fire if it's been there before. It's a sense of defeat. And it's up to the individuals and the team to overcome defeat.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: NASA's head of manned spaceflight, astronaut Bill Readdy, told reporters today a year ago we said it would be difficult to get back into space, but we did not know just how difficult it would be -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's day 13 of the 2004 Summer Olympics. There's a lot to talk about, including a gold medal that is at stake. And we're talking about the soccer match up between the United States and Brazil. So far, I hear the woman are ahead, 1-0. The USA team, I should say. Of course, we're rooting for them.
But also there's another story that caught our eye. And that was the Greco-Roman wrestler Rulon Gardner. Pictures all over the newspapers today about an emotional moment for him. We're going to explain why.
Michael Holmes, of course, we mention the story and what does he do? He gets the man himself.
Hi, Michael.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra.
I know you've been talking about Rulon Gardner all week. We're up here in our live shot position and who pops by for a visit, Rulon Gardner.
Good to have you on the program.
RULON GARDNER, OLYMPIC ATHLETE: Thanks for letting me come on.
HOLMES: You must be thrilled, two medals, two Olympics. How do you feel about that? Most people don't even get to come here.
GARDNER: For me, back in Sydney, it was just being there and going out and beating Alexander Karelin, 13-time world champion and Olympic gold medalist. It was everything for me.
And to come back and kind of go through the snowmobile mishap like I had in 2002 and then this year come back and defeat Dremiel Byers, the world champ in 2002, to make the team was everything. And then coming in here and just letting it all hang out because yesterday was my last match. I left my shoes on the match. It was just a dream come true.
HOLMES: Yes, now, you have just glossed over a couple of pretty important things. That snowmobile accident, you lost a toe. You nearly died, didn't you? A lot of people said you wouldn't wrestle again.
GARDNER: I did.
My core temperature was 80 degrees. I was stuck outside at 18 hours at 25 below zero. So, for me, it was a pretty hair-raising experience. But the good lord allowed me to come back. And my dream was to make two Olympic teams and represent our country in two Olympic Games. And I did.
HOLMES: And two medals.
GARDNER: Yes.
HOLMES: One final thing. I was talking to Kyra on the phone earlier and she asked me about the shoe thing. And it's something that wrestlers do, also weight-lifters, I think. Tell us quickly about that tradition.
GARDNER: I think what it's meant to do is represent an athlete taking a transition from a life as an athlete to a person in society, leaving their shoes on hopefully for somebody to fill those shoes after they move onto other aspects of life. And so, for me, I hope that some of the youth, some of the kids in America can see those people and those shoes and can take that role and hopefully win a gold medal, just like we did here in Athens. HOLMES: Very emotional time for you, too, also, a new wife, a new life starting up.
Rulon Gardner, fantastic to have you here. Congratulations.
GARDNER: All right, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
HOLMES: There you go, Kyra. You ask. We deliver. Rulon Gardner joining us here for that live shot.
PHILLIPS: Give him a big kiss on his forehead, OK, Michael?
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right. Some tough shoes to fill.
HOLMES: He may wrestle me to the ground.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: I wouldn't kiss him, definitely not.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, guys.
O'BRIEN: Not kiss him. Stay away.
PHILLIPS: He'll put him in that, what is it, the half-nelson?
O'BRIEN: Half-nelson. The half-nelson is gone.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right, thanks very much for being with us on a busy day here on LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien. Up next is "INSIDE POLITICS."
PHILLIPS: That's right, right after the break.
We'll see you tomorrow.
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Aired August 26, 2004 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, we want to welcome our international viewers, as we continue our breaking news coverage.
We're beginning this hour with an apparent breakthrough in Najaf, an agreement between Najaf's highest-profile holy men to end we think a long and bloody standoff between the younger cleric's militia and Iraq's post-occupation government.
We don't know all the details yet -- we're getting them in by the minute -- except that they all came together just mere hours after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, 73 years old and ailing, made a dramatic return to the Shiite heartland after medical treatment in London.
Al-Sistani and radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are expected to hold a news conference any moment now. We hope to bring that to you live as soon as it happens. We are told that this peace deal was actually made in the home of the Grand Ayatollah. They are no longer there, obviously getting ready for a possible news conference.
But we do want to go to our Matthew Chance. He joins us live from Najaf right now with possibly, hopefully, some details of this deal. What can you tell us, Matthew?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we're still waiting for this press conference to take place before we can actually sort of bring over to you the deal, the actual terms of this deal that seems to be about to be enacted by the representatives of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
Certainly, there was a great hope when he came back to Najaf just earlier today that this would be the beginning of the end of this long-running crisis that has left areas in Najaf ravaged in clashes between U.S. forces and Iraqi forces and of course militants loyal to the radical Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
But few people expected it would come this quickly, less than 24 hours since he arrived in country. Representatives of the Grand Ayatollah saying they have agreed a positive deal with Muqtada al-Sadr to bring to an end this long-running conflict with the Mehdi Army and U.S. and Iraqi forces.
They're assembled at the house of the Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani inside Najaf right now. Reporters have been called there to attend a news conference, which is to be addressed we believe by representatives at least of both Muqtada al-Sadr and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. We're waiting to see what the terms of this peace deal are to see exactly where it leaves Muqtada al-Sadr, to see where it leads as well his Mehdi Army.
Now, the interim Iraqi government have made it clear that one of the main things they've been looking for is this illegal Mehdi Militia, as they call it, the Mehdi Militia, to be disbanded. They've been holding out the possibility of Muqtada al-Sadr being embraced into the political fold.
But one of their big conditions for this to be sort of seen in any way as a success, for them to be seen as in any way maintaining their credibility is for that Mehdi Army be disbanded. So, we'll wait very carefully to hear what representatives of the Ayatollah have to say in this forthcoming press conference -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And as we await that press conference, Matthew, we're getting bits and pieces of information from this plan.
According to various reports, the plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, apparently something that has been discussed between these two men.
(CROSSTALK)
CHANCE: Well, you need to give me the update.
PHILLIPS: OK.
Also, right now, our Matthew Chance getting updated there in Najaf, as we start to get information here also in Atlanta at the home base here of CNN. All foreign forces withdrawing from Najaf and leaving security to the new Iraqi police. something else that has apparently been discussed between these two men, also for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting, fighting that you know we've been covering for a number of weeks now, battles between U.S. and Iraqi forces and supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In addition, it says here, according to this plan, that it calls for Najaf and Kufa, I guess sort of a sister city, to be declared weapons-free cities, and for foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and, as you said, leave their security to the police there.
Octavia Nasr of course been watching this very closely. We're sort of getting little bits of this deal as it kind of comes out.
I know you've been listening to a news conference by one of the representatives of the Grand Ayatollah. What have you heard in that news conference you can share with us?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, first of all, it Hamed Khafaf. He is a spokesperson for al-Sistani.
He went out and spoke to reporters and he made it very clear that this is only an appeal, an appeal to the Iraqi government to allow -- there he is. We're looking at him here. You can see a lot of emotions there and he's trying to calm everybody down. O'BRIEN: Wait. Let's be clear. When you say it's an appeal, they've had no back-channel communication, then, with the Iraqi government. They're negotiating in the media, is what you're saying, isn't it?
NASR: Right.
And he's sending out an appeal to the Iraqi government, basically. It's an interesting appeal, I would say. He's saying that thousands of people marched along with Sistani on his way from Basra to Najaf and the people are waiting outside. And he's appealing to the Iraqi government to allow these people into the holy sites, as long as they can leave it by 10:00 a.m. local time on Friday. It's an interesting appeal.
Why would they be appealing to the government to allow thousands of people in, into the shrine. And now he said, please take this message very seriously. I wonder why he's saying that? He did say that the people need to get in and they promised to leave by 10:00 a.m. on Friday local time. And he said this is very important for this to happen before we announce the actual deal that was stricken between al-Sadr and Sistani.
O'BRIEN: Well, naturally, I'm mystified as I sit and listen to that, except that I wonder if in some sense the Grand Ayatollah is playing to the crowd a little bit and trying to solidify his own support, although that goes without saying that he has widespread support, so why would that be necessary?
NASR: He does have widespread support. And we have to remember, it was him who called these thousands of people to march on the holy city of Najaf.
Now, some people in Arab media, some Arab experts were saying the reason he called on all these people to march on the city is to try to protect the holy sites, thinking that the Iraqi government and the U.S. forces are not going to attack the city when you have thousands of people.
O'BRIEN: So, potentially we're talking about this is a way to protect the mosque and the holy sites, human shields, if you will.
NASR: Right.
Now, his request, when he sends his man, al-Khafaf, to say this is an appeal to the Iraqi government to allow thousands of people to enter, this is something coming out of the negotiations. It's a direct effect of those negotiations. And he's saying, take this appeal very seriously. Allow these people in, so that we can go on, basically.
Now, someone in the crowd, one of the journalists asked, is this a condition? And he said, no, this is not a condition. This is an appeal. It's matter of semantics.
(CROSSTALK) O'BRIEN: What does your gut tell you? Is that going to be allowed? Do you think, given the dynamics of the situation, the only answer can be, yes, let them in, right?
NASR: Well, the Arab media are very careful with this.
They have been portraying this interim government as being stubborn a little bit, someone with big words, but little action, sort of. So, if you base it on how Arab media have been portraying the story, it would seem like, no, the Iraqi government is not going to allow this to happen. And we probably need to wait for that he press conference that you talked about to see what really these two men agreed on. Maybe they didn't agree on anything at this point.
O'BRIEN: Wow.
NASR: If they're sending someone out to say let allow these people in before we announce the elements of this agreement, maybe there is no agreement yet.
O'BRIEN: Well, I hope we haven't gotten too far ahead of this story. Octavia Nasr, thank you. Stay plugged in. Come back. Give us some more information as you get it.
NASR: OK.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: As you can imagine, a number of pieces kind of being put together, various reports talking about this peace plan that has been brokered between these two leaders, a plan possibly calling for all groups in Najaf to lay down their arms, also asking U.S. forces to leave the city. Is this a part of the deal or not?
We want to go to CNN producer Kianne Sadeq. She is just outside of the home of the Grand Ayatollah, where apparently this peace deal was made.
Let's talk more about those negotiations, possibly more details about what was reached.
Kianne, what can you tell us?
KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER: Yes, Kyra.
I just walked out of the house of Sheik Grand Ayatollah al- Sistani where he is staying here in Najaf. We were told by his deputies that he had just been meeting with Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr in his house face-to-face. And his spokesman, Hamed al-Khafaf has told -- held a press conference there, telling all the press that all five points have been agreed on, those five points being that all armed persons leave Kufa and Najaf and that there will be no arms in Kufa and Najaf, also that the multinational forces will leave Najaf.
They also said that they wanted compensation for those people who have been affected who are victims of this crisis, and that there will be legitimate elections in Iraq. Now, Hamed al-Khafaf have just told us that all sides have agreed on these conditions and that Muqtada al- Sadr -- Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani have come to an agreement with this and they hope to carry out these five points in the soonest, shortest time possible -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: That's our Kianne Sadeq reporting there outside of the home where apparently this peace deal was made.
Kianne, I am just going to repeat those five points of this apparent peace plan that you pointed out: a plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, that is that all groups in that area lay down their weapons; also that foreign forces are to withdraw from Najaf, as in U.S. force withdrawing from Najaf; leaving the security to the Iraqi police there; and also for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting that's been taking place over the past three weeks there between U.S. and Iraqi forces and supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr; and finally, that legitimate elections be held.
Kianne, if you're still with me there via -- OK, we've lost Kianne Sadeq. She's still there.
Kianne, are you still with me?
SADEQ: Kyra, yes, I am.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Great.
I was reviewing those five points that you laid out from this plan apparently that has been reached by these two men. What can you tell us about what's next for these two? Where exactly will the Grand Ayatollah go from here? Muqtada al-Sadr, where will he go from here and how does this plan -- will this plan go before Iraq's new prime minister and also the generals of the U.S. military that are working side by side with Iraq's new prime minister to try and find peace in this area specifically?
SADEQ: Yes.
Well, it is unclear right now.
As I asked Hamed al-Khafaf, the deputy, the top spokesman for Sheik Ali al-Sistani. He has told me that we will just resume, we will just continue to work an carrying out these five points in the soonest way possible. But he said that we will be normal and we will be here in Najaf, as we normally are, as we normally are operating.
Now, as for the whereabouts of Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr or where he will go next, it is unclear at this time, for I have not yet spoken to the spokesman for Muqtada al-Sadr or have had any official word from them. But as Hamed al-Khafaf has told us, that they will be here in Najaf, as they normally are, except for right now, they will be efforting to carry out these five points and make them happen in the soonest way possible. PHILLIPS: Kianne Sadeq, our CNN producer there on the scene, thanks so much.
The five points that she pointed about, five points that she is talking about, once again, a quick review before we move on, if you're just tuning in, breaking news. A peace deal apparently has been reached between rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and also the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, as you know, the Ayatollah that is revered there in that region. Apparently, they have come to a deal, agreeing to five points.
That is that Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, for all foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and leave security to the Iraq police, and for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting that has been taking place over the past three weeks, fighting that has called for a death toll of about 73 people to date, also calling for part of this plan, legitimate elections -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Joining us now on the set is our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, who has spent a lot of time in that part of the world.
Nic, is it possible -- and I don't want to get too far ahead of this story as well on this, but is it possible we've seen the brief flame-out of Muqtada al-Sadr, having risen to great success and wearing out his welcome for that tactic of using the mosque as a shelter?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't think so. I don't think we're seeing the end of Muqtada al-Sadr.
He's been very careful in growing a base of support. If one looks to when the interim government was first announced last year, that was the day, when his name wasn't on that first list of 25 people, that he first began to make himself heard. He started growing a base of support back in Kufa and many other towns around the country. So, I don't think we are going to see the end of him through this deal today.
O'BRIEN: Now, in the mind of an Iraqi Shia, is there a decision to be made at this point between the Grand Ayatollah, who of course has tremendous clout and influence and respect, and Muqtada al-Sadr? Or is there a way of following him and still owing some allegiance to Muqtada al-Sadr?
ROBERTSON: There has been that question for Iraqis for the last year or so, even before that, to which family they will follow. Will they follow Sadr because of his father? Will they follow Ali al- Sistani because of who he is and what he represents and his religious authority? That question I don't think will change for a lot of people.
They have made their decision on sort of who the right people are for them, who has the best voice to represent their interests. So, the question has already been asked and raised and answered in people's minds, I feel at this time. So, it seems unlikely that that is going to change. Sistani, of course, has a much greater following. He is much more revered. He has the religious authority. But Sadr speaks to the raw emotions in a lot of Iraqis. And that is that they want change and they want it now.
I don't think this issue will be settled on Sadr's future until the political future of Iraq is settled. As long as there is something out there for Muqtada al-Sadr to try and get ahold of in terms of political power, he'll be going for it.
O'BRIEN: Well, try to plug this to the political dynamic there now, which is obviously very much in flux. Clearly, if what we've been reporting bears itself out with facts on the ground, Sistani, his prestige already high, becomes even that much higher and he really walks away with tremendous political clout, should he choose to wield it.
Do you think there is some deal in there for Muqtada al-Sadr that has been brokered to allow this to end peacefully? In other words, what is the face-saving carrot that has been offered?
ROBERTSON: Well, the face-saving carrot is Ali al-Sistani going in to talk to him.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: But just his presence in a way raises his prestige of Sadr?
ROBERTSON: This gives Sadr the possibility to step away saving face from the situation, a situation in which in a way has corralled -- it's a no-win situation. Ultimately, he's going to be caught. This allows him to get out of that. It allows him to get out of it diplomatically, politically and religiously, saving face all the way down the line.
O'BRIEN: You have to ask -- the one question that comes up here is why this couldn't have been put together sooner and saved a lot of bloodshed?
ROBERTSON: It's a very interesting question. If one looks at some of the dynamics that have played out, Ali al-Sistani out of the country for a few weeks getting medical treatment, comes straight back in, who has been talking to him while he's been outside? Who has been persuading him outside of this sort of intense situation in Najaf that he really needs to step up to the plate? He's been doing it behind the scenes. This is the first time we've seen him.
Imagine the picture of him going into the meeting today. This is the first time we've seen him going in and actively getting engaged publicly in the politics. We have heard it from all behind the scenes before. But here he is getting engaged.
O'BRIEN: And one final thought here. Sistani of course hails from Iran. To what extent does this potential raise the specter of Iran being somehow meddling either overtly or behind the scenes in Iraqi politics? ROBERTSON: Well, how much does this raise the specter of Iraqi Shias wanting to become the real center of Shia world and take it from the Iranians?
O'BRIEN: Interesting.
All right, Nic Robertson, lots to consider here. Thank you very much. Good to have you in Atlanta working on another project and we appreciate your insights.
Back with more in just a moment. Stay with us as we continue our coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Eighteen months ago, NASA, we all actually lost the shuttle Columbia on reentry. It also lost the shuttle's access to space. And something else went missing as well, America's confidence in NASA.
Today, one year after an independent panel gave NASA a blueprint for returning to flight, the agency is trying to fix the shuttle and fix itself and get an American launch vehicle back into orbit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN (voice-over): The trip back to space begins but does not end with the space shuttle's external fuel tank. As we all know now, a piece of brittle insulating foam the size of a briefcase fell off Columbia's tank, blowing a fatally big hole in a heat shield on the orbiter's left wing, dooming the crew of seven during their fiery reentry on February 1, 2003. NASA engineers have spent countless hours the past year trying to stem the shedding foam.
SANDY COLEMAN, EXTERNAL TANK MANAGER: We've done significant amount of testing and analysis and that testing and analysis has shown us that we are good. It's not going to lose foam larger than would be allowable.
O'BRIEN: The foam is there to create a giant thermos for the super cold rocket fuel. NASA used the same material during the moon race except in those days then it was inside the rocket's skin. But to save money, shuttle designers put the insulation on the outside, literally out of its element.
NEIL OTTE, NASA: That foam not only has to perform thermally, but it has to perform structurally. In other words, it has got to hold together. And that is not the design solution that this foam was really or design problem that this foam was meant to solve.
O'BRIEN: NASA does not have the luxury of starting over with a completely new design. So, engineers at its Michoud tank production line near New Orleans have designed three major fixes for places on the tank most prone to shed big pieces of foam, including the crucial strut that links the orbiter's nose to the tank, the origin of the piece that inflicted the mortal room on Columbia. Foam there will be replaced with heaters. Elsewhere, techniques for applying the foam are now improved and there is new shielding to stop ice from forming.
HAL SIMONEAUX, LOCKHEED MARTIN: Any time you are going to fly with foam, you do run the risk of losing foam. I don't think it's possible to totally illuminate debris.
O'BRIEN: And if a piece of foam made a hole like this once again, the crew will still have no way of fixing it. So far, engineers cannot figure out how a spacewalker might patch the carbon panels at the leading edge of shuttle's wing.
RANDY AVERA, AEROSPACE ENGINEER: There's really not a lot that can be done in orbit to repair it to make it safe for reentry. And then we find ourselves back at the same spot that Columbia was during its 16-day mission in 2003.
O'BRIEN: So, NASA has focused on detecting a debris strike sooner, better cameras and radars on the ground at the cape and on board the shuttle. And for now, all missions will be destined for the International Space Station, which could provide a safe haven in orbit for a crew in need of a rescue mission.
(on camera): In all, the space agency has now completed five of the 15 prerequisites for flight that the Columbia Accident Investigation Board mandated last year.
The space agency says it will complete the remaining 10 by the end of this year, paving the way for the launch of the space shuttle Discovery perhaps by mid-March. In between now and then, the shuttle team must find way to deal with its lingering sense of anguish and sense of loss.
AVERA: It's confidence issue. You don't want to put your hand back in that fire if it's been there before. It's a sense of defeat. And it's up to the individuals and the team to overcome defeat.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: NASA's head of manned spaceflight, astronaut Bill Readdy, told reporters today a year ago we said it would be difficult to get back into space, but we did not know just how difficult it would be -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's day 13 of the 2004 Summer Olympics. There's a lot to talk about, including a gold medal that is at stake. And we're talking about the soccer match up between the United States and Brazil. So far, I hear the woman are ahead, 1-0. The USA team, I should say. Of course, we're rooting for them.
But also there's another story that caught our eye. And that was the Greco-Roman wrestler Rulon Gardner. Pictures all over the newspapers today about an emotional moment for him. We're going to explain why.
Michael Holmes, of course, we mention the story and what does he do? He gets the man himself.
Hi, Michael.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra.
I know you've been talking about Rulon Gardner all week. We're up here in our live shot position and who pops by for a visit, Rulon Gardner.
Good to have you on the program.
RULON GARDNER, OLYMPIC ATHLETE: Thanks for letting me come on.
HOLMES: You must be thrilled, two medals, two Olympics. How do you feel about that? Most people don't even get to come here.
GARDNER: For me, back in Sydney, it was just being there and going out and beating Alexander Karelin, 13-time world champion and Olympic gold medalist. It was everything for me.
And to come back and kind of go through the snowmobile mishap like I had in 2002 and then this year come back and defeat Dremiel Byers, the world champ in 2002, to make the team was everything. And then coming in here and just letting it all hang out because yesterday was my last match. I left my shoes on the match. It was just a dream come true.
HOLMES: Yes, now, you have just glossed over a couple of pretty important things. That snowmobile accident, you lost a toe. You nearly died, didn't you? A lot of people said you wouldn't wrestle again.
GARDNER: I did.
My core temperature was 80 degrees. I was stuck outside at 18 hours at 25 below zero. So, for me, it was a pretty hair-raising experience. But the good lord allowed me to come back. And my dream was to make two Olympic teams and represent our country in two Olympic Games. And I did.
HOLMES: And two medals.
GARDNER: Yes.
HOLMES: One final thing. I was talking to Kyra on the phone earlier and she asked me about the shoe thing. And it's something that wrestlers do, also weight-lifters, I think. Tell us quickly about that tradition.
GARDNER: I think what it's meant to do is represent an athlete taking a transition from a life as an athlete to a person in society, leaving their shoes on hopefully for somebody to fill those shoes after they move onto other aspects of life. And so, for me, I hope that some of the youth, some of the kids in America can see those people and those shoes and can take that role and hopefully win a gold medal, just like we did here in Athens. HOLMES: Very emotional time for you, too, also, a new wife, a new life starting up.
Rulon Gardner, fantastic to have you here. Congratulations.
GARDNER: All right, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
HOLMES: There you go, Kyra. You ask. We deliver. Rulon Gardner joining us here for that live shot.
PHILLIPS: Give him a big kiss on his forehead, OK, Michael?
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right. Some tough shoes to fill.
HOLMES: He may wrestle me to the ground.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: I wouldn't kiss him, definitely not.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, guys.
O'BRIEN: Not kiss him. Stay away.
PHILLIPS: He'll put him in that, what is it, the half-nelson?
O'BRIEN: Half-nelson. The half-nelson is gone.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: All right, thanks very much for being with us on a busy day here on LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien. Up next is "INSIDE POLITICS."
PHILLIPS: That's right, right after the break.
We'll see you tomorrow.
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