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Debate over 527 Heats Up; Peace Deal Reached in Najaf
Aired August 26, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: Welcome back to the CNN Center in Atlanta. This is LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care how many times you've done this. You go up there, your knees are shaking. You get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach, because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Solemn duty: inside the training of the military men and women who have to deliver those heartbreaking messages.
But first, here's what's happening in the news.
A federal judge has found the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act unconstitutional. Judge Richard Casey in Manhattan says the ban does not include an exception to preserve a woman's life and health. That ruling is the second of its kind. A San Francisco judge had already -- already declared the 2003 law unconstitutional.
A major crackdown on cyber-crime. Attorney General John Ashcroft just announced the arrest and convictions of more than 150 people in connection with Internet crime. Operation Web Snare targeted so- called fishing and other financial scams.
The battle for soccer gold: the U.S. women's team is currently playing Brazil for the gold medal at the Athens Olympics. No score yet, but we're watching it. Now earlier the reigning World Cup soccer champion Germany defeated Sweden 1-0 to take the bronze medal. We're going to have a live report from Athens later on LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: On to the race for the White House, and the controversy over John Kerry's military record continues to take center stage. In the latest salvo, President Bush calls for an investigation into so- called 527 groups.
That coming as the Republican Party faithful gather in New York for the GOP convention, which begins next week. And also in the Big Apple, CNN "CROSSFIRE" hosts James Carville -- great tie. Very nice. And Robert Novak, always nattily attired. Sartorial splendor goes without saying. Gentlemen, good to see you both.
Mr. Carville, a question for you why don't the Democrats do as the Republicans suggest? Why doesn't the Kerry campaign specifically just denounce the 527 system as a whole? They have not done that.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Why should he? I mean they're a creation of President Bush. Why should he?
I mean, you can denounce something that does not tell the truth. Why in the world would he denounce 527s? What's wrong with them?
O'BRIEN: Well, -- well, something's wrong with them. Obviously, there are problems with them.
CARVILLE: No.
O'BRIEN: They've been talking about how they don't like what comes from the other side. So why not just denounce the system?
CARVILLE: They're a creation of President Bush -- wait.
O'BRIEN: OK. Well, if they're a creation of President Bush -- if they're a creation of President Bush, all the more reason to denounce them if you're a Democrat. Right?
CARVILLE: No matter what, I won't denounce it (ph).
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Can I -- Can I get in on this?
O'BRIEN: Robert Novak. My question for you is, why doesn't Mr. Bush specifically denounce that one ad? What's the matter with that?
NOVAK: Well, I got to respond to what...
O'BRIEN: OK. Go ahead. Go ahead.
NOVAK: ... James said about the 527s. 527s are a creation of the McCain-Feingold bill. It's a huge loophole in the bill. And the Democrats, what Harold Ickes Jr. jumped in -- James knows all this, if he'd be candid.
They jumped in way ahead of the Republicans. The Republicans were caught asleep at the switch on 527s. The Democrats got a good big advantage. So they're not going to denounce it.
Now as far as denouncing that one ad that gets to be -- to be nitpicking as far as the president is concerned.
O'BRIEN: No, no, it's more than nitpicking. Don't you think? Don't you think?
CARVILLE: Doesn't it matter -- Can I make a point here?
O'BRIEN: It's more -- it's more -- wait a minute. But -- yes, he did sign it. It was McCain-Feingold. See, we can share -- we can share its creation.
NOVAK: But the fact of the matter, Miles....
O'BRIEN: The fact is, it's not a nit, though, Bob. It's kind of a big deal, isn't it?
NOVAK: Yes, of course it's a big deal. The ad is hurting John Kerry. And it's -- it is the thing that's delightful about politics, Miles. These things come back to bite you.
The Democrats were so happy that they had snookered the Republicans on 527s, way ahead of him. And now this ad, which the president can say, "Hey, I didn't have anything to do with it." He didn't have anything to do with it. And it is really hurting -- is hurting Kerry.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, James Carville, it seems to me the president has a powerful ally in this, in sort of enlisting the support of Senator McCain who, of course, was critical and is now going to work with the president as they go after this 527 system. To what extent does that blunt the Kerry campaign's attack?
CARVILLE: Look, a 527 tells the truth in an ad, what's the problem with it? If a 527 lies in a ad, then that's the problem with it.
I don't even understand why am I criticizing something that John McCain and George W. Bush created? It was created in McCain-Feingold. It was signed by President Bush.
I don't know what -- why are we -- the poverty numbers are out today. The Pentagon has been slammed for pursuing an incompetent war. And we're talking about a 527, which has not got a doggone thing to do with anybody's life and is created by John McCain and George W. Bush.
O'BRIEN: All right, guys -- hey, guys.
NOVAK: You should be ashamed of yourself.
O'BRIEN: I should be ashamed?
NOVAK: You should be ashamed of yourself because you have gotten off James' anti-Bush message. He doesn't want to talk about that. He just wants to talk
O'BRIEN: All right, guys.
NOVAK: He just wants to go attack, attack...
O'BRIEN: I hate to do this; I really hate to do this. We are just -- we are just getting kind of wound up there, but we have some breaking news coming out of Najaf, which is important.
James Carville, Bob Novak, "CROSSFIRE" will be on a little bit later.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: And an abbreviated dose of that. Thanks very much for dropping by.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
NOVAK: My pleasure.
PHILLIPS: All right. This just in to CNN. We've been able to confirm this breaking news now.
We are told that a peace agreement, a deal has been reached in Najaf. You know, for weeks on end now, we've been telling you about the fighting in Najaf between Muqtada al-Sadr, the renegade cleric there that allegedly has been holed up in this mosque, U.S. forces on the outside, constant gun battles going on for weeks now.
Well, we've been telling you also about Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. He had left the region. He is a man that is revered in Iraq for coming -- keeping the peace, brokering deals, if you will, peace deals.
He had come back to Najaf. We had confirmed that he had arrived in the region today. We have just found out he, indeed, has met with Muqtada al-Sadr.
Now these are two families that for years have been at odds with each other, Muqtada al-Sadr, the young cleric that has been leading this sort of anti-American or dipping into this anti-American sentiment and leading the Mehdi Army to battle against U.S. forces.
We've been showing you how the holy city of Najaf and the mosque where supporters have been has been riddled with bullet holes, because the gun battles have been taking place between the rebel cleric and this Mehdi Army and U.S. forces.
Well, Ayatollah al-Sistani, who had not been in the region. He was getting medical care in London, came back hopefully, to bring about a peace deal between Muqtada al-Sadr and Prime Minister Allawi, as you know the new prime minister leading Iraq right now.
We are now getting word that a peace deal, some type of deal has been reached. Where these two men met, where they talked, where they came to this deal, we do not know. We were not even able to confirm if, indeed, the rebel cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, was indeed holed up in that mosque where the fighting has been taking place.
Though we can tell you now that the Ayatollah -- video here of him arriving in the region -- did meet with the Shiite cleric, and they have come to some sort of peace deal.
I understand, Miles, we have a producer there on the ground, our Kianne Sadeq (ph). She's been trying to work -- she, I guess, has been able to work this information for us and let us know that a deal has been reached. O'BRIEN: Yes, if there's any doubt about the power and the powers of persuasion of the Ayatollah Sistani, let those be allayed right now, because apparently not only is this deal in the making, but there will be a joint news conference very shortly, which we hope to bring to you live here on CNN, satellites and circuits allowing, which would herald just this thought.
This, of course, comes after that long siege at that most holy site, the Ali Imam Temple, which of course, has led to tremendous frustration on the part of the U.S. forces as well as Iraqi forces there and how to deal with it, because it is viewed as an extremely holy site all throughout the Shiite world.
There you see the elder Ayatollah Sistani on the left and the young firebrand, Muqtada al-Sadr, on the right.
Both of them owing allegiance to very prominent Shia families. Muqtada Al-Sadr for many years under the shadow of his family, and of late had -- had emerged and used the U.S. occupation of Iraq as a way to whip up support for his Mehdi Army.
Over time, however, what has happened is his support has sort of literally shrunk in size down to that mosque compound as the people of Najaf and many people in the general Muslim world, Shia in particular, expressed displeasure over the fact that he had, in fact, attempted to use that mosque as a refuge, as a shelter and inviting the possibility of damage to that mosque.
Of course, the U.S. Marines, U.S. military and the Iraqi forces very cognizant of that fact -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi had stepped up to the plate today, calling for a ceasefire, at least a 24-hour ceasefire to halt military operations so some type of peace deal could try and be brokered.
Matthew Chance now live via videophone in Najaf with more on this deal we are being told has just been reached.
Matthew, what have you been able to find out? What can you tell us?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we haven't got a great deal of information, Kyra, about exactly what the terms of this deal are.
We've just had first word within the last few minutes that representatives of the Grand Ayatollah al Sistani, the most influential Shia cleric in this country, has come to what his aides are describing as a positive deal with the forces of Muqtada al-Sadr, the renegade Shia cleric.
They're reported to be at -- both of them -- at the Grand Ayatollah's house in Najaf, seated side by side with each other right now. They have called international media, reporters to the house, in order to give a press conference where we expect that the terms of this peace deal will be announced.
But at the moment, all we have is that first indication that some kind of deal of end this three-week standoff that has really ravaged the holy city of Najaf seems to have been reached. That, at least, according to the representatives of the Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani, the most influential Shia cleric in Iraq -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: I'm curious, Matthew. When talking about the -- the new government that has now been formed in Iraq, this interim Iraqi prime minister, Allawi, there was so much talk about how the credibility and the reputation of the new government in Iraq would be, considering how it dealt with Muqtada al-Sadr and tried to -- and as it tried to bring peace to the region, bringing in the new Iraqi police, the new Iraqi military forces, working with U.S. troops.
Now, and as we saw, the fighting continued, the battles continued. Now the Ayatollah stepping in and -- and coming to a peace deal in less than a 24-hour period of even setting foot there in the region.
I'm curious how this is going to play out with the role of the new prime minister, the power of the new prime minister, and the Ayatollah and how he's been able to reach a deal. How do you think this is going to play out politically?
CHANCE: Well, I mean, you're right. It's a very interesting dynamic that exists between the various power players in this country, and Ayad Allawi, the interim prime minister, is just one of those players.
But certainly in terms of the authority that he commands in this country, the authority of the interim prime ministership, it sort of pales in significance to this sort of religious and spiritual authority that Grand Ayatollah Sistani commands. Literally hundreds of thousands of people hang on his every word.
He called for people to descend, to converge on Najaf, in order to save the city from destruction yesterday. And thousands turned out and made their way to the city. Most of them were blocked from entering by the police forces of the interim Iraqi government. They've been -- Hundreds have been standing around the outskirts of the city, unable to get in.
But certainly this is just an example, an indication of just how revered, just how much authority this Ayatollah has.
You're right, for three weeks Allawi and the interim Iraqi government have been trying their hardest to try and bring to some conclusion this extremely damaging standoff, which has been seen as a terrible challenge for their authority on the part of Muqtada al-Sadr.
Each day that it went on, it seemed that the challenge to the authority of the Iraqi government seemed to get more and more.
Ayatollah Sistani comes back, and within 24 hours some kind of peace deal is on the table. That's a really potent indication of how powerful a man this figure is in Iraqi politics and in Iraqi society, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Matthew, something interesting, also -- first of all we would like to welcome our international viewers, CNN international viewers joining our coverage now as we continue to follow this breaking news coverage that Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr have met, have come together, have apparently reached some sort of peace deal.
Our Matthew Chance is joining us via videophone there in Najaf.
Matthew, just to give a little background, what's interesting here, I mean, you're talking about the religious authority. This definitely proves the power of the religious authority versus the political authority right now in Iraq. And the power that the Ayatollah and the influence that he has.
But what's interesting is that when you look at the family and the background of the Ayatollah, versus Muqtada al-Sadr and his father and that background, these are two families that were -- had quite a rivalry for a number of years. And it's fascinating to watch the Ayatollah come in and this young cleric, looks like, is listening to him.
CHANCE: Well, absolutely. And I think it shows that the relative power of the two figures, as well.
Muqtada al-Sadr is a significant player, definitely, in his country and somewhat odd, given his position has been bolstered by the fact of the last three weeks where he's put up this fight against the U.S. forces and the Iraqi interim government forces.
For many people in this country that certainly bolsters his position. He certainly has the ear of Iraq's -- a significant proportion of Iraq's significant youth, disaffected, disenchanted by the presence of U.S. forces.
But that in no way puts him in the same league of respectability as the Grand Ayatollah Sistani. This is a figure who is revered worldwide for his religious authority. He's certainly the most significant religious figure in Iraq.
And as I say, hundreds of thousands of people listen to his every word. And, again, an indication of this, you know, he's come back into this war torn situation where Muqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army forces have been battling against the U.S. forces. He'd been garnering support, perhaps.
But the Ayatollah has stepped in and said that he would bring peace to this situation. Both sides seem to have listened to him, not just Muqtada al-Sadr. Remember, the Iraqi interim government and U.S. forces also have suspended their military operations to allow this Sistani peace effort to take some root, to make some progress.
And it does seem, if these indications are correct, this word coming out of Sistani's actual house in Najaf, that some progress has indeed been made. We're waiting, though, to see what the terms of this peace deal will be. Because that's going to be very crucial for the Iraqi interim government to say that it can maintain some credibility at the end of this.
One of the things they've been very firm about all along is they want this Mehdi Army militia to be disbanded. That's been the main objective of their confrontation here with Muqtada al-Sadr. If that militia is disbanded, I think it will be possible for the interim Iraqi government to claim some kind of victory out of this, even if it means bringing Muqtada al-Sadr himself into the political process.
PHILLIPS: All right. Our Matthew Chance. May I ask you to stand by there in Najaf?
Once again, we want to welcome our international viewers on CNN, our viewers all around the world now, as we continue real quickly to brief you on this breaking news right now.
And that is Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who arrived in the region, in the Najaf region, today, as you know, the most widely respected cleric among the Iraq Shiite majority, apparently has met with the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. They have apparently reached some type of peace deal, hoping to end the fighting between U.S. and Iraqi forces and the Mehdi Army militia, which of course, is in support of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
We're going to continue our breaking news coverage. We'll check back in with Matthew Chance. Miles, you've got some more information?
O'BRIEN: Let's take a closer look now at Ayatollah Sistani. He is considered to be Iraq's most revere Shiite cleric.
The Iranian-born leader is 73. He is considered a spiritual guide for Shiite Muslims the world over, as we've been telling you. He's one of only five living Grand Ayatollahs and is Iraq's most senior Shiite cleric.
Now, while he believes no law should conflict with Islamic principles, he generally believes in the separation of clergy and politics. That said, he does support the recognition of Islam as Iraq's majority religion.
Sistani played a role in halting earlier fighting in Najaf between U.S. forces and Shiite radicals. And the current violence erupted one day after he departed Najaf for medical treatment on London.
Joining us now with some more on all of this is our senior editor for Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr, who's been watching this in the prism of some of the Arabic language television broadcasts.
Let's talk about that first. What's the tone of the coverage right now? And give us a good sense of how he is revered within the Muslim world, Sistani, that is? OCTAVIA NASR, SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, the tone was serious until we started hearing words that a possible resolution to the conflict has been reached. You can feel a sigh of relief on Arab networks.
Arab networks for about a week now have been reporting the story with a very serious tone. They were very scared, if you will, that this conflict in Najaf is going to spill over to the whole country and that the bloodshed is going to continue.
This is -- we have to remember, the makeup of the country of Iraq and the role that Shia play in that makeup. Many divisions. You have the Sunni; you have the Shiite; you have the Kurds. You have so many groups there, so any imbalance is going to create a lot of problems for the country.
So Arab networks were very careful to report the story in a very serious tone.
O'BRIEN: Very circumspect as you need to be when you're talking about such a holy place.
Let's remind folks, first of all, the Shiites do represent a majority of Iraqis. Nevertheless, for many years, of course, the regime was Sunni.
NASR: Right.
O'BRIEN: And that -- that problem there, and throw in the Kurds, of course, and you've got the potential for really outright civil war. And that was the concern, that this would devolve into that.
NASR: Right. And the Shia were crushed under Saddam Hussein. They were the majority, but they had no voice, no power, under Saddam Hussein.
So now in this new Iraq they have a role, they have a voice, and people like al-Sadr, this young cleric, they have taken advantage of this situation, and they're making their voice heard loud and clear.
Now, there is the clash. The clash is between these two men. You have the Ayatollah Sistani, as you mentioned. Here we're looking al-Sadr, the young cleric who has many supporters who are young and willing to fight. They do not like the U.S. occupation of Iraq. And they will never support it.
And then have you Sistani, whom we rarely see on television. We never heard from the man yet. And also, his supporters and his spokespeople have always said, "We do not want to be a part of this conflict."
So clearly, they don't want to be a part of the conflict. They don't want to be a part of the controversy, either.
O'BRIEN: Well, they are now, aren't they? And when Sistani speaks, people clearly do listen, because he does not speak frequently.
I have to wonder now, what -- what this does to his prestige politically in Iraq now? The prime minister of Iraq is a Shia but a secular Shia. Does this, in any way, put him in a position to be a political force that must be reckoned with?
NASR: Right. Definitely, for his -- when you talk about his prestige, his prestige is soaring at this point, as you said. A day after he left to London for medical treatment, this problem, this standoff started in Najaf. And it didn't end, sort of, until his return and his involvement.
Now, he is revered. He's a lot more than revered. And he's revered not just in Iraq, but he's the ultimate authority on Shia issues around the world, not just in the Middle East and the Arab world.
O'BRIEN: All right. But a skeptic might say, if you wanted to orchestrate a whole scenario that would raise his prestige, you'd do just that. You'd leave, allow this whole thing to come and then come ride to the rescue. Am I being too skeptical?
NASR: Arab media, Arab experts would tell you you are being too skeptical, because this is someone who never seeks the limelight, sort of. He's someone who always stays in the -- in the backstage, sort of. He always says, "We don't want to be involved."
He is the ultimate Shia leader, or authority. But he never was a political party in anything.
Now, his role here is very important. And I think Arab media are pointing it very clearly. His role is that of peace. He is watching what's happening in Najaf and saying, "This bloodshed has to stop. Let me get involved."
And I have to tell you, looking at his message, his message is very interesting. It's very strong and it's very decisive. He is telling the Sadr militia to drop their arms, drop their weapons and get out of the shrine, the Imam Ali shrine.
And he's telling the Iraqi government to step in and take control of Najaf.
So basically, his point is very clear, and it's going to be supported by Shia and Muslim -- Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. That this man is saying Iraqis should control the streets of Najaf, and militants shouldn't be at the time Imam Ali Shrine.
O'BRIEN: All right. Well, given the erratic pattern of Muqtada al-Sadr, many more twists and turns could still unfold.
NASR: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: And the devil being in the details. Octavia Nasr, thank you for monitoring that for us. NASR: Sure.
O'BRIEN: And come back as you have more information for us -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, the agreement is being described as a positive deal. We are being told that the two men had met, actually at the home of the Grand Ayatollah. And I'm told outside of that home right now with me is a correspondent for al-Arabiya Television, Diyar al- Omary.
Diyar, what can you tell us about this deal? And sort of describe to us the scene outside of the Grand Ayatollah's home right now, and if indeed, the two men are still inside that home.
DIYAR AL-OMARY: No, the two men are not in the -- inside the home, but it is really breaking news that two sides have agreed in the last minute to try to -- to strike a deal with Muqtada al-Sadr, who approved the Sistani conditions to hand over the holy shrine to al- Sistani and to Nasiriyah (ph).
And now both sides agree and Mr. Al-Qatar (ph), he's a representative of al Sistani, in talks has said to the -- has said to the reporters that the Iraqi government, he's waiting from the Iraqi government for a statement that he said it.
What we -- what we understand that the -- that the Iraqi government has approved, also, on the -- on the agreement with Mr. Al- Sadr and with Mr. Al-Sistani.
PHILLIPS: So, Diyar, what can you tell us about the fighting that has been taking place in and around the mosque there in Najaf? Will that, indeed, stop? Is that a part of the agreement that this will completely stop? And what will happen to the supporters that have been holed up inside that mosque?
AL-OMARY: Yes. Yes, there is -- there's an invitation from Mr. Al Sistani to the Iraqi government to let all the demonstrators who have come from different parts -- from different parts of the Iraq government to attend the prior of the holy shrine.
That means Iraqi government and Iraqi police will pave the way to give them a free exit and safe exit to the holy shrine. And that will pave the way to -- for all these demonstrators to come and to get inside the mosque. And after that, there will be more talks to end this crisis.
PHILLIPS: Diyar, what do you know about the future of Muqtada al-Sadr as a leader in that country? Will that continue in any way? Will he have any type of leadership responsibility?
AL-OMARY: Well, I think there is no -- the future of Muqtada al- Sadr is still vague and is still ambiguous. But the people here, they say the government, that they will let al-Sadr to participate on the political and the political process. But still, yes, there is no confirmation about the participation of Muqtada al-Sadr and the political process. But they said it is -- the peace agreement will pave the way for more talks in the future, the near future.
The most important thing now is to end the armed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and to make all the militia to leave Najaf immediately and to bring from inside to the Najaf people.
PHILLIPS: Diyar al-Omary, a correspondent for al-Arabiya Television there. Just outside the home where this peace deal was reached. Diyar, thank you so much.
Once again, if you 're just joining in, real briefly, word coming in that rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and top Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani have reached an agreement to end the three weeks of fighting that have been taking place in the holy city of Najaf.
A peace deal on the table, a plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities for all foreign forces, also to withdraw, we're being told, from Najaf and leave security to the police, and for the government to also compensate those harmed by the fighting.
These are pieces of this peace deal just coming into us. We're going to continue to follow our breaking news coverage. LIVE FROM continues right after a quick break.
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Aired August 26, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: Welcome back to the CNN Center in Atlanta. This is LIVE FROM. I'm Miles O'Brien.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's what's all new this half hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care how many times you've done this. You go up there, your knees are shaking. You get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach, because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Solemn duty: inside the training of the military men and women who have to deliver those heartbreaking messages.
But first, here's what's happening in the news.
A federal judge has found the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act unconstitutional. Judge Richard Casey in Manhattan says the ban does not include an exception to preserve a woman's life and health. That ruling is the second of its kind. A San Francisco judge had already -- already declared the 2003 law unconstitutional.
A major crackdown on cyber-crime. Attorney General John Ashcroft just announced the arrest and convictions of more than 150 people in connection with Internet crime. Operation Web Snare targeted so- called fishing and other financial scams.
The battle for soccer gold: the U.S. women's team is currently playing Brazil for the gold medal at the Athens Olympics. No score yet, but we're watching it. Now earlier the reigning World Cup soccer champion Germany defeated Sweden 1-0 to take the bronze medal. We're going to have a live report from Athens later on LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: On to the race for the White House, and the controversy over John Kerry's military record continues to take center stage. In the latest salvo, President Bush calls for an investigation into so- called 527 groups.
That coming as the Republican Party faithful gather in New York for the GOP convention, which begins next week. And also in the Big Apple, CNN "CROSSFIRE" hosts James Carville -- great tie. Very nice. And Robert Novak, always nattily attired. Sartorial splendor goes without saying. Gentlemen, good to see you both.
Mr. Carville, a question for you why don't the Democrats do as the Republicans suggest? Why doesn't the Kerry campaign specifically just denounce the 527 system as a whole? They have not done that.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Why should he? I mean they're a creation of President Bush. Why should he?
I mean, you can denounce something that does not tell the truth. Why in the world would he denounce 527s? What's wrong with them?
O'BRIEN: Well, -- well, something's wrong with them. Obviously, there are problems with them.
CARVILLE: No.
O'BRIEN: They've been talking about how they don't like what comes from the other side. So why not just denounce the system?
CARVILLE: They're a creation of President Bush -- wait.
O'BRIEN: OK. Well, if they're a creation of President Bush -- if they're a creation of President Bush, all the more reason to denounce them if you're a Democrat. Right?
CARVILLE: No matter what, I won't denounce it (ph).
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Can I -- Can I get in on this?
O'BRIEN: Robert Novak. My question for you is, why doesn't Mr. Bush specifically denounce that one ad? What's the matter with that?
NOVAK: Well, I got to respond to what...
O'BRIEN: OK. Go ahead. Go ahead.
NOVAK: ... James said about the 527s. 527s are a creation of the McCain-Feingold bill. It's a huge loophole in the bill. And the Democrats, what Harold Ickes Jr. jumped in -- James knows all this, if he'd be candid.
They jumped in way ahead of the Republicans. The Republicans were caught asleep at the switch on 527s. The Democrats got a good big advantage. So they're not going to denounce it.
Now as far as denouncing that one ad that gets to be -- to be nitpicking as far as the president is concerned.
O'BRIEN: No, no, it's more than nitpicking. Don't you think? Don't you think?
CARVILLE: Doesn't it matter -- Can I make a point here?
O'BRIEN: It's more -- it's more -- wait a minute. But -- yes, he did sign it. It was McCain-Feingold. See, we can share -- we can share its creation.
NOVAK: But the fact of the matter, Miles....
O'BRIEN: The fact is, it's not a nit, though, Bob. It's kind of a big deal, isn't it?
NOVAK: Yes, of course it's a big deal. The ad is hurting John Kerry. And it's -- it is the thing that's delightful about politics, Miles. These things come back to bite you.
The Democrats were so happy that they had snookered the Republicans on 527s, way ahead of him. And now this ad, which the president can say, "Hey, I didn't have anything to do with it." He didn't have anything to do with it. And it is really hurting -- is hurting Kerry.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, James Carville, it seems to me the president has a powerful ally in this, in sort of enlisting the support of Senator McCain who, of course, was critical and is now going to work with the president as they go after this 527 system. To what extent does that blunt the Kerry campaign's attack?
CARVILLE: Look, a 527 tells the truth in an ad, what's the problem with it? If a 527 lies in a ad, then that's the problem with it.
I don't even understand why am I criticizing something that John McCain and George W. Bush created? It was created in McCain-Feingold. It was signed by President Bush.
I don't know what -- why are we -- the poverty numbers are out today. The Pentagon has been slammed for pursuing an incompetent war. And we're talking about a 527, which has not got a doggone thing to do with anybody's life and is created by John McCain and George W. Bush.
O'BRIEN: All right, guys -- hey, guys.
NOVAK: You should be ashamed of yourself.
O'BRIEN: I should be ashamed?
NOVAK: You should be ashamed of yourself because you have gotten off James' anti-Bush message. He doesn't want to talk about that. He just wants to talk
O'BRIEN: All right, guys.
NOVAK: He just wants to go attack, attack...
O'BRIEN: I hate to do this; I really hate to do this. We are just -- we are just getting kind of wound up there, but we have some breaking news coming out of Najaf, which is important.
James Carville, Bob Novak, "CROSSFIRE" will be on a little bit later.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: And an abbreviated dose of that. Thanks very much for dropping by.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
NOVAK: My pleasure.
PHILLIPS: All right. This just in to CNN. We've been able to confirm this breaking news now.
We are told that a peace agreement, a deal has been reached in Najaf. You know, for weeks on end now, we've been telling you about the fighting in Najaf between Muqtada al-Sadr, the renegade cleric there that allegedly has been holed up in this mosque, U.S. forces on the outside, constant gun battles going on for weeks now.
Well, we've been telling you also about Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. He had left the region. He is a man that is revered in Iraq for coming -- keeping the peace, brokering deals, if you will, peace deals.
He had come back to Najaf. We had confirmed that he had arrived in the region today. We have just found out he, indeed, has met with Muqtada al-Sadr.
Now these are two families that for years have been at odds with each other, Muqtada al-Sadr, the young cleric that has been leading this sort of anti-American or dipping into this anti-American sentiment and leading the Mehdi Army to battle against U.S. forces.
We've been showing you how the holy city of Najaf and the mosque where supporters have been has been riddled with bullet holes, because the gun battles have been taking place between the rebel cleric and this Mehdi Army and U.S. forces.
Well, Ayatollah al-Sistani, who had not been in the region. He was getting medical care in London, came back hopefully, to bring about a peace deal between Muqtada al-Sadr and Prime Minister Allawi, as you know the new prime minister leading Iraq right now.
We are now getting word that a peace deal, some type of deal has been reached. Where these two men met, where they talked, where they came to this deal, we do not know. We were not even able to confirm if, indeed, the rebel cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, was indeed holed up in that mosque where the fighting has been taking place.
Though we can tell you now that the Ayatollah -- video here of him arriving in the region -- did meet with the Shiite cleric, and they have come to some sort of peace deal.
I understand, Miles, we have a producer there on the ground, our Kianne Sadeq (ph). She's been trying to work -- she, I guess, has been able to work this information for us and let us know that a deal has been reached. O'BRIEN: Yes, if there's any doubt about the power and the powers of persuasion of the Ayatollah Sistani, let those be allayed right now, because apparently not only is this deal in the making, but there will be a joint news conference very shortly, which we hope to bring to you live here on CNN, satellites and circuits allowing, which would herald just this thought.
This, of course, comes after that long siege at that most holy site, the Ali Imam Temple, which of course, has led to tremendous frustration on the part of the U.S. forces as well as Iraqi forces there and how to deal with it, because it is viewed as an extremely holy site all throughout the Shiite world.
There you see the elder Ayatollah Sistani on the left and the young firebrand, Muqtada al-Sadr, on the right.
Both of them owing allegiance to very prominent Shia families. Muqtada Al-Sadr for many years under the shadow of his family, and of late had -- had emerged and used the U.S. occupation of Iraq as a way to whip up support for his Mehdi Army.
Over time, however, what has happened is his support has sort of literally shrunk in size down to that mosque compound as the people of Najaf and many people in the general Muslim world, Shia in particular, expressed displeasure over the fact that he had, in fact, attempted to use that mosque as a refuge, as a shelter and inviting the possibility of damage to that mosque.
Of course, the U.S. Marines, U.S. military and the Iraqi forces very cognizant of that fact -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi had stepped up to the plate today, calling for a ceasefire, at least a 24-hour ceasefire to halt military operations so some type of peace deal could try and be brokered.
Matthew Chance now live via videophone in Najaf with more on this deal we are being told has just been reached.
Matthew, what have you been able to find out? What can you tell us?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we haven't got a great deal of information, Kyra, about exactly what the terms of this deal are.
We've just had first word within the last few minutes that representatives of the Grand Ayatollah al Sistani, the most influential Shia cleric in this country, has come to what his aides are describing as a positive deal with the forces of Muqtada al-Sadr, the renegade Shia cleric.
They're reported to be at -- both of them -- at the Grand Ayatollah's house in Najaf, seated side by side with each other right now. They have called international media, reporters to the house, in order to give a press conference where we expect that the terms of this peace deal will be announced.
But at the moment, all we have is that first indication that some kind of deal of end this three-week standoff that has really ravaged the holy city of Najaf seems to have been reached. That, at least, according to the representatives of the Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani, the most influential Shia cleric in Iraq -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: I'm curious, Matthew. When talking about the -- the new government that has now been formed in Iraq, this interim Iraqi prime minister, Allawi, there was so much talk about how the credibility and the reputation of the new government in Iraq would be, considering how it dealt with Muqtada al-Sadr and tried to -- and as it tried to bring peace to the region, bringing in the new Iraqi police, the new Iraqi military forces, working with U.S. troops.
Now, and as we saw, the fighting continued, the battles continued. Now the Ayatollah stepping in and -- and coming to a peace deal in less than a 24-hour period of even setting foot there in the region.
I'm curious how this is going to play out with the role of the new prime minister, the power of the new prime minister, and the Ayatollah and how he's been able to reach a deal. How do you think this is going to play out politically?
CHANCE: Well, I mean, you're right. It's a very interesting dynamic that exists between the various power players in this country, and Ayad Allawi, the interim prime minister, is just one of those players.
But certainly in terms of the authority that he commands in this country, the authority of the interim prime ministership, it sort of pales in significance to this sort of religious and spiritual authority that Grand Ayatollah Sistani commands. Literally hundreds of thousands of people hang on his every word.
He called for people to descend, to converge on Najaf, in order to save the city from destruction yesterday. And thousands turned out and made their way to the city. Most of them were blocked from entering by the police forces of the interim Iraqi government. They've been -- Hundreds have been standing around the outskirts of the city, unable to get in.
But certainly this is just an example, an indication of just how revered, just how much authority this Ayatollah has.
You're right, for three weeks Allawi and the interim Iraqi government have been trying their hardest to try and bring to some conclusion this extremely damaging standoff, which has been seen as a terrible challenge for their authority on the part of Muqtada al-Sadr.
Each day that it went on, it seemed that the challenge to the authority of the Iraqi government seemed to get more and more.
Ayatollah Sistani comes back, and within 24 hours some kind of peace deal is on the table. That's a really potent indication of how powerful a man this figure is in Iraqi politics and in Iraqi society, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Matthew, something interesting, also -- first of all we would like to welcome our international viewers, CNN international viewers joining our coverage now as we continue to follow this breaking news coverage that Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr have met, have come together, have apparently reached some sort of peace deal.
Our Matthew Chance is joining us via videophone there in Najaf.
Matthew, just to give a little background, what's interesting here, I mean, you're talking about the religious authority. This definitely proves the power of the religious authority versus the political authority right now in Iraq. And the power that the Ayatollah and the influence that he has.
But what's interesting is that when you look at the family and the background of the Ayatollah, versus Muqtada al-Sadr and his father and that background, these are two families that were -- had quite a rivalry for a number of years. And it's fascinating to watch the Ayatollah come in and this young cleric, looks like, is listening to him.
CHANCE: Well, absolutely. And I think it shows that the relative power of the two figures, as well.
Muqtada al-Sadr is a significant player, definitely, in his country and somewhat odd, given his position has been bolstered by the fact of the last three weeks where he's put up this fight against the U.S. forces and the Iraqi interim government forces.
For many people in this country that certainly bolsters his position. He certainly has the ear of Iraq's -- a significant proportion of Iraq's significant youth, disaffected, disenchanted by the presence of U.S. forces.
But that in no way puts him in the same league of respectability as the Grand Ayatollah Sistani. This is a figure who is revered worldwide for his religious authority. He's certainly the most significant religious figure in Iraq.
And as I say, hundreds of thousands of people listen to his every word. And, again, an indication of this, you know, he's come back into this war torn situation where Muqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army forces have been battling against the U.S. forces. He'd been garnering support, perhaps.
But the Ayatollah has stepped in and said that he would bring peace to this situation. Both sides seem to have listened to him, not just Muqtada al-Sadr. Remember, the Iraqi interim government and U.S. forces also have suspended their military operations to allow this Sistani peace effort to take some root, to make some progress.
And it does seem, if these indications are correct, this word coming out of Sistani's actual house in Najaf, that some progress has indeed been made. We're waiting, though, to see what the terms of this peace deal will be. Because that's going to be very crucial for the Iraqi interim government to say that it can maintain some credibility at the end of this.
One of the things they've been very firm about all along is they want this Mehdi Army militia to be disbanded. That's been the main objective of their confrontation here with Muqtada al-Sadr. If that militia is disbanded, I think it will be possible for the interim Iraqi government to claim some kind of victory out of this, even if it means bringing Muqtada al-Sadr himself into the political process.
PHILLIPS: All right. Our Matthew Chance. May I ask you to stand by there in Najaf?
Once again, we want to welcome our international viewers on CNN, our viewers all around the world now, as we continue real quickly to brief you on this breaking news right now.
And that is Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who arrived in the region, in the Najaf region, today, as you know, the most widely respected cleric among the Iraq Shiite majority, apparently has met with the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. They have apparently reached some type of peace deal, hoping to end the fighting between U.S. and Iraqi forces and the Mehdi Army militia, which of course, is in support of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
We're going to continue our breaking news coverage. We'll check back in with Matthew Chance. Miles, you've got some more information?
O'BRIEN: Let's take a closer look now at Ayatollah Sistani. He is considered to be Iraq's most revere Shiite cleric.
The Iranian-born leader is 73. He is considered a spiritual guide for Shiite Muslims the world over, as we've been telling you. He's one of only five living Grand Ayatollahs and is Iraq's most senior Shiite cleric.
Now, while he believes no law should conflict with Islamic principles, he generally believes in the separation of clergy and politics. That said, he does support the recognition of Islam as Iraq's majority religion.
Sistani played a role in halting earlier fighting in Najaf between U.S. forces and Shiite radicals. And the current violence erupted one day after he departed Najaf for medical treatment on London.
Joining us now with some more on all of this is our senior editor for Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr, who's been watching this in the prism of some of the Arabic language television broadcasts.
Let's talk about that first. What's the tone of the coverage right now? And give us a good sense of how he is revered within the Muslim world, Sistani, that is? OCTAVIA NASR, SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Well, the tone was serious until we started hearing words that a possible resolution to the conflict has been reached. You can feel a sigh of relief on Arab networks.
Arab networks for about a week now have been reporting the story with a very serious tone. They were very scared, if you will, that this conflict in Najaf is going to spill over to the whole country and that the bloodshed is going to continue.
This is -- we have to remember, the makeup of the country of Iraq and the role that Shia play in that makeup. Many divisions. You have the Sunni; you have the Shiite; you have the Kurds. You have so many groups there, so any imbalance is going to create a lot of problems for the country.
So Arab networks were very careful to report the story in a very serious tone.
O'BRIEN: Very circumspect as you need to be when you're talking about such a holy place.
Let's remind folks, first of all, the Shiites do represent a majority of Iraqis. Nevertheless, for many years, of course, the regime was Sunni.
NASR: Right.
O'BRIEN: And that -- that problem there, and throw in the Kurds, of course, and you've got the potential for really outright civil war. And that was the concern, that this would devolve into that.
NASR: Right. And the Shia were crushed under Saddam Hussein. They were the majority, but they had no voice, no power, under Saddam Hussein.
So now in this new Iraq they have a role, they have a voice, and people like al-Sadr, this young cleric, they have taken advantage of this situation, and they're making their voice heard loud and clear.
Now, there is the clash. The clash is between these two men. You have the Ayatollah Sistani, as you mentioned. Here we're looking al-Sadr, the young cleric who has many supporters who are young and willing to fight. They do not like the U.S. occupation of Iraq. And they will never support it.
And then have you Sistani, whom we rarely see on television. We never heard from the man yet. And also, his supporters and his spokespeople have always said, "We do not want to be a part of this conflict."
So clearly, they don't want to be a part of the conflict. They don't want to be a part of the controversy, either.
O'BRIEN: Well, they are now, aren't they? And when Sistani speaks, people clearly do listen, because he does not speak frequently.
I have to wonder now, what -- what this does to his prestige politically in Iraq now? The prime minister of Iraq is a Shia but a secular Shia. Does this, in any way, put him in a position to be a political force that must be reckoned with?
NASR: Right. Definitely, for his -- when you talk about his prestige, his prestige is soaring at this point, as you said. A day after he left to London for medical treatment, this problem, this standoff started in Najaf. And it didn't end, sort of, until his return and his involvement.
Now, he is revered. He's a lot more than revered. And he's revered not just in Iraq, but he's the ultimate authority on Shia issues around the world, not just in the Middle East and the Arab world.
O'BRIEN: All right. But a skeptic might say, if you wanted to orchestrate a whole scenario that would raise his prestige, you'd do just that. You'd leave, allow this whole thing to come and then come ride to the rescue. Am I being too skeptical?
NASR: Arab media, Arab experts would tell you you are being too skeptical, because this is someone who never seeks the limelight, sort of. He's someone who always stays in the -- in the backstage, sort of. He always says, "We don't want to be involved."
He is the ultimate Shia leader, or authority. But he never was a political party in anything.
Now, his role here is very important. And I think Arab media are pointing it very clearly. His role is that of peace. He is watching what's happening in Najaf and saying, "This bloodshed has to stop. Let me get involved."
And I have to tell you, looking at his message, his message is very interesting. It's very strong and it's very decisive. He is telling the Sadr militia to drop their arms, drop their weapons and get out of the shrine, the Imam Ali shrine.
And he's telling the Iraqi government to step in and take control of Najaf.
So basically, his point is very clear, and it's going to be supported by Shia and Muslim -- Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. That this man is saying Iraqis should control the streets of Najaf, and militants shouldn't be at the time Imam Ali Shrine.
O'BRIEN: All right. Well, given the erratic pattern of Muqtada al-Sadr, many more twists and turns could still unfold.
NASR: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: And the devil being in the details. Octavia Nasr, thank you for monitoring that for us. NASR: Sure.
O'BRIEN: And come back as you have more information for us -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, the agreement is being described as a positive deal. We are being told that the two men had met, actually at the home of the Grand Ayatollah. And I'm told outside of that home right now with me is a correspondent for al-Arabiya Television, Diyar al- Omary.
Diyar, what can you tell us about this deal? And sort of describe to us the scene outside of the Grand Ayatollah's home right now, and if indeed, the two men are still inside that home.
DIYAR AL-OMARY: No, the two men are not in the -- inside the home, but it is really breaking news that two sides have agreed in the last minute to try to -- to strike a deal with Muqtada al-Sadr, who approved the Sistani conditions to hand over the holy shrine to al- Sistani and to Nasiriyah (ph).
And now both sides agree and Mr. Al-Qatar (ph), he's a representative of al Sistani, in talks has said to the -- has said to the reporters that the Iraqi government, he's waiting from the Iraqi government for a statement that he said it.
What we -- what we understand that the -- that the Iraqi government has approved, also, on the -- on the agreement with Mr. Al- Sadr and with Mr. Al-Sistani.
PHILLIPS: So, Diyar, what can you tell us about the fighting that has been taking place in and around the mosque there in Najaf? Will that, indeed, stop? Is that a part of the agreement that this will completely stop? And what will happen to the supporters that have been holed up inside that mosque?
AL-OMARY: Yes. Yes, there is -- there's an invitation from Mr. Al Sistani to the Iraqi government to let all the demonstrators who have come from different parts -- from different parts of the Iraq government to attend the prior of the holy shrine.
That means Iraqi government and Iraqi police will pave the way to give them a free exit and safe exit to the holy shrine. And that will pave the way to -- for all these demonstrators to come and to get inside the mosque. And after that, there will be more talks to end this crisis.
PHILLIPS: Diyar, what do you know about the future of Muqtada al-Sadr as a leader in that country? Will that continue in any way? Will he have any type of leadership responsibility?
AL-OMARY: Well, I think there is no -- the future of Muqtada al- Sadr is still vague and is still ambiguous. But the people here, they say the government, that they will let al-Sadr to participate on the political and the political process. But still, yes, there is no confirmation about the participation of Muqtada al-Sadr and the political process. But they said it is -- the peace agreement will pave the way for more talks in the future, the near future.
The most important thing now is to end the armed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and to make all the militia to leave Najaf immediately and to bring from inside to the Najaf people.
PHILLIPS: Diyar al-Omary, a correspondent for al-Arabiya Television there. Just outside the home where this peace deal was reached. Diyar, thank you so much.
Once again, if you 're just joining in, real briefly, word coming in that rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and top Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani have reached an agreement to end the three weeks of fighting that have been taking place in the holy city of Najaf.
A peace deal on the table, a plan calling for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities for all foreign forces, also to withdraw, we're being told, from Najaf and leave security to the police, and for the government to also compensate those harmed by the fighting.
These are pieces of this peace deal just coming into us. We're going to continue to follow our breaking news coverage. LIVE FROM continues right after a quick break.
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