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Both Sides Prepare for Tonight's Vice Presidential Debate; "The Da Vinci Code" Tourists; John Kerry News Conference
Aired October 05, 2004 - 13:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you can call tonight's VP debate the political version of the "Thrilla in Manila." In one corner, the challenger John Edwards in this one-time only verbal bout with the titleholder, Dick Cheney. Will he float like a butterfly or sting like a bee?
CNN's Joe Johns in Ohio with the Edwards campaign as final preparations are made, ahead of tonight's clash in Cleveland.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the run-up to the debate, Senator John Edwards appearing at the Parma, Ohio, Community Center about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland. Three hundred people were expected to attend. Among them, about one-third undecided voters. This is ground that has been tread before by the vice president, appearing there in July. This was supposed to be Edwards' only campaign stop before the debate.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John Kerry's message was clear, and it was unmistakable. So, we hope, with a little luck, with me doing my job, that that same message will come through loud and clear tonight.
JOHNS: Meanwhile, Edwards' aides continue to downplay expectations for the North Carolina senator in the debate, indicating that this is his first on-camera, one-on-one debate in his political career. At the same time, Republicans say, he is a seasoned trial lawyer and a veteran of numerous debates in the presidential primaries.
Much has been made of the study in contrast here, two very different men. They have spent the last several weeks beating up on each other. Cheney talking about the trial lawyers, Edwards keying on Halliburton. Now for the first time, scheduled to meet in Cleveland, face-to-face in a debate.
Joe Johns, CNN, Cleveland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Now, the other side of the table and a seasoned political veteran, CNN's Dana bash checking in from the Dick Cheney campaign, as the standing vice president gets ready for primetime.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is this day, these September 11 images the vice president hopes to remind voters of in tonight's debate. He was the one directing response in the president's absence and he's the one you'd want if needed next time, not a one term senator.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. REAGAN CHIEF OF STAFF: The first measure of a vice president, is he ready to step in and be president today? Not tomorrow, not next year, but today. I think Dick Cheney is going to demonstrate that yet again. And I think John Edwards has a big uphill climb.
BASH: Cheney aides say his debate strategy mirrors what he does on the stump -- defend and promote the president's policies, attack his opponents as liberal on taxes and weak on national defense.
DICK CHENEY (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When it comes to diplomacy, it looks to me like John Kerry should stick to wind surfing.
BASH: But Mr. Cheney's unparalleled influence is a target for Democrats. They say he embodies a highly secretive White House and aides are bracing to hear one name a lot -- Halliburton -- and the accusation the vice president helped his old firm get lucrative Iraq contracts.
But Cheney officials insist he didn't overly prepare a defense, calling it unnecessary.
While aides say 40 years of government experience is his greatest asset, they try to manage expectations by calling Mr. Cheney's liability John Edwards' debating skills.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He isn't somebody who is going to hit the oratory of the trial lawyer. He isn't somebody who is going to be the charismatic dynamic figure.
BASH (on camera): The Cheney spin is that John Edwards was picked just for tonight, calling him the man with the golden tongue. And despite the fact Cheney aides are trying to downplay any heightened significance for this debate, they do hope that Mr. Cheney's appeal with the GOP base could help energize rank-and-file Republicans disappointed about Mr. Bush's debate last week.
Dana Bash, CNN, Cleveland, Ohio.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: And CNN's got your ringside seat tonight. Our complete coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. The debate is scheduled for 9:00 p.m. Eastern.
John Edwards is a relatively new player on the scene. We thought it might be interesting to see exactly how well he is known overseas?
CNN's London bureau took the question, who is John Edwards, along with a photographer, to the streets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. I don't know. American guy, obviously. Oh, he's probably the running mate for -- the guy with the big chin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, that's the vice president, isn't it, Edwards?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not Dick Cheney. He's on TV tonight. He's doing vice presidential debates. And it's Kerry and -- I've even got a bumper sticker on my fridge. I'm trying to think of it. Kerry and -- it's not Robinson, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone in America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he's running with Kerry isn't he? His side kick. Can't think of his name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, on tour with "The Da Vinci Code." Hitting the hotspots from the superhot book. Find out what it's like and what the regular non-"Da Vinci" tourists think about it.
And -- I can't do it, Vicky (ph), I'm trying to sing. Tell me why so many bananas are piled up in Trafalgar Square. Harry Belafonte, I'm going to call him now to sing the tease for a second go-around.
LIVE FROM takes you around the world, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Fans of the blockbuster novel "The Da Vinci Code" are flocking to Paris to compare details in the fictional book to what's really there. Sometime, as Jim Bittermann uncovers, they need a little convincing about what is true.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a dark and stormy night, yet at the Church of Saint Sulpice in Paris, there isn't a single self-mutilating albino monk in sight. At the Louvre museum, not one curator lies dead on the parkay floor. And in a hay loft outside Paris, the secret listening post just isn't there.
Yet, even if they can't find all the details mentioned in the book, "Da Vinci Code" fans seem to have an insatiable need to link the fiction to reality -- especially at the Louvre, where the opening murder scene takes place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the reasons we're going to the Louvre -- I mean, we've been here several times. But it's trying to see it again exactly because of "The Da Vinci Code." JACQUE LE ROUX, ART HISTORIAN & LOUVRE GUIDE: For sure, they're trying to match the truth and the fiction.
BITTERMANN: An art historian who gives tours of the Louvre happily corrects errors in the murder mystery, including one in the first paragraph where the victim is described as a 76-year-old curator. Everyone knows, he says, mandatory retirement age in France is 65.
Still, the art expert is not critical of "Da Vinci Code" tourists.
LE ROUX: There's no bad reason to come through the Louvre, so it's -- no, it's quite -- for us, as tour guides, it's very interesting as well, because I mean, we can start a conversation and talk about some other things.
BITTERMANN: But across town at Saint Sulpice, where the novel's mad monk uses a candleholder to murder a fictional nun, church fathers are not so upbeat about the new tourists. They felt obliged to put up a sign explaining that the brass strip running across the floor is not, what the book describes, as a pagan astronomical device.
MICHEL ROUGE, ST. SULPICE HISTORIAN: It says a lot of things that are not true, and I'm annoyed at the first three lines, saying that everything in the book, which is historic, controversial, is accurate.
BITTERMANN: Some even believe "The Da Vinci Code" is an attack on Christian.
(on camera): The book supposes that Mary Magdalene was the lover, if not wife, of Jesus Christ and that the two had a child, who then became part of the bloodline of the kings of France, and that Opus Dei, one of the fastest growing movement in the Catholic church, is populated with assassins and plotters.
(voice-over): Another factor that has caused Catholics in particular to take a work of fiction so seriously is the novel's huge popularity on both sides of the Atlantic.
JOHN ALLEN, NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER: What that indicates is there is a tremendous spiritual interest and tremendous hunger out there that, for whatever reason, institutional Christianity does not seem to be able to satisfy.
BITTERMANN: True, the passions of the "Code-heads" run deep. At the Chateau de Villette, American owner Olivia Decker discovered her property figures notably in "The Da Vinci Code." So, she's begun catering to "Da Vinci Code" tourists, sharing her home for $55,000 a week.
And she thinks the book's popularity is just beginning. She's already been contacted by a film company, planning to shoot "Da Vinci Code," the movie, in and around her chateau.
Jim Bittermann, CNN, Villette, France.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, our next guest says that using "The Da Vinci Code" to learn church history is like reading James Bond novels to learn about the Cold War. He should know -- in addition to being a Minneapolis radio talk show host, Ian Punnett is a seminary graduate and director of adult education at St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral. He joins us to talk about leading a "Da Vinci Code" tour.
So, Ian, am I allowed to call you a "Code-head."
IAN PUNNETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good afternoon, Kyra. No, I guess I wouldn't be considered one, only in that "Code-heads," I suppose, are people that are really kind of upside down in the novel and looking for truth everywhere in it.
PHILLIPS: Well, I'm curious, as you took this group on the tour, did they all read the book, first of all?
PUNNETT: Well, almost everybody did. We took 20 people from the Twin Cities and from the upper Midwest, and about 18 of the 20 had already read it or had even gone so far as to kind of study it. About two were reading it on the flight over from the Midwest to Paris.
PHILLIPS: Now, are they all believers, or were -- there were a mixture of believer/nonbeliever?
PUNNETT: Well, I guess it depends how we define believers. I mean, certainly many of them were Christian believers, but some people also were very interested in the claims of the book and wanted to see how much truth could be found in what the author, Dan Brown, purports, in regard to Christianity and churches and secrets and secret architecture, and all sorts of sort of the clandestine nature of the -- of the novel.
PHILLIPS: All right. So, as you went to certain spots...
PUNNETT: All of them.
PHILLIPS: Yes, you went to all of them. OK, you went to every single spot. I'm curious what kind of discussions came up at certain venues. I mean, when you were walking in the Louvre with the book underneath your arm, were people give giving you these looks like "grrr?"
PUNNETT: Well, and they were. It was interesting to hear in Jim Bittermann's piece there how he was talking about how this has sort of been embraced by the tour guides. We didn't experience a lot of embracing by the French for "The Da Vinci Code." Although they were very nice about it, they also kind of threw us a lot of looks, almost as though to say, you mean it took this to get you to come see the Louvre? It took this to come get you to see the "Mona Lisa?"
I mean, for them, it's just beautiful enough on its own and that should be sufficient. But they're glad for the American tourism, they're glad for the influx of American dollars, and they were very hospitable for us.
PHILLIPS: All right, so from the Louvre to Saint Sulpice, let's say, what kind of discussions arose once you entered the church?
PUNNETT: Well, it's an excellent point. It was probably in the actual sort of eyeballing of each thing that gets mentioned in the novel that the discussions came up. Did this meet our expectations, sometimes of the sinister or the secretive nature of these items or locations?
In the case of Saint Sulpice, there were little things, of course, that just kind of seem sort of silly. You know, there are no pews in Saint Sulpice, and the pews are mentioned prominently in the book. And sometimes you wonder did Dan Brown ever actually go to this church.
But the obelisk itself in the corner, it was right there by the sign from the church telling people don't expect this to be a pagan symbol and a whole history about how it was installed in the church under the church's auspice, part of the way they could use to determine when Easter was back before they had more, you know, complex astronomical settings.
PHILLIPS: Wow. Saint Sulpice -- I better practice saying that correctly. I didn't say it very well.
So, other discussions -- obviously did people come out of this tour saying, "Oh, I'm much more faithful, I'm stronger now," or, "Oh, boy, I'm backing away, I got a lot of questions now."
PUNNETT: Well, really it came right down to was a lot of the interest in the book, I think, is driven by the aspects of the divine feminine, which are discussed in the novel. And I think that's the part of the book that really hooks people the most is that aspect, that sort of missing aspect of a God that is all too spoken of in just simply male pronouns or male metaphors.
And so, about three to one of the people on the trip were female to male. And I think that it was a lot of -- a lot of discussion about -- about women and about the role of Mary Magdalene, and all of these aspects of the -- the less talked about female side of Christian history, that's what was really -- that's what we kept coming back to in the hotel rooms.
PHILLIPS: Interesting. So finally, I guess, at the end of the trip, taking sort of the deep sense of the novel, and then taking this tour, do you realize the book is more fact or fiction?
PUNNETT: Well, I mean, the book tells us that it's fiction. Some of the things which they have kind of let out as sort of implying that it's fact, like Opus Dei as being these arch criminals, that really comes down as very unfair.
We met with the Opus Dei people. They were perfectly wonderful. They were transparent for us. They answered all of our even embarrassing questions. It was very hard in the end to feel like the book had done them justice. And I think some of the other aspects of the book follow in the inverse. Some people who are held up as saints in the long run, the more we looked at them, the more we thought perhaps those people of history just weren't as great as we've been told they were.
PHILLIPS: Interesting. Well, I can't imagine you ever asking an embarrassing question, Ian Punnett, but thank you -- as he looks into the camera.
Interesting, tell us about the next tour, all right?
PUNNETT: All right, will do. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: All right, thank you. You had us all fascinated by it. Thanks, Ian.
Well, straight ahead, flu vaccine news for you. An update on our top story, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS As his vice -- or VP candidate, rather, John Edwards, gets ready to debate tonight, John Kerry now holding a live news conference in Tipton, Iowa. Let's listen in.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said, quote, "I haven't seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."
Behind the scenes in all of these discussions and presentations is Dick Cheney. And it's time for the vice president to be accountable and to answer the questions that have arisen.
Folks, for weeks, I've been asking the president of the United States to level with the American people and to be candid about the situation in Iraq and about what we face. Maybe he's simply unwilling to face the truth or to share it with the American people. But the president's stubbornness has prevented him from seeing each step of the way the difficulties and the ways in which we best protect our troops and best accomplish this mission.
I think it's time for America to have leadership that knows how to get the job done and that's prepared to level with the American people.
Be happy to answer any questions.
QUESTION: Yesterday, the president just flatly said your policies would make the world a more dangerous place. Do you have a response?
KERRY: Well, that's the sort of blanket scare tactic of the administration, rather than try to deal with the real choices before the country. I've made it clear, and I'll make it clearer every day -- I defended this country and fought for this country and bled for this country as a young man. I know what it takes to defend America. I have voted for the biggest defense budgets in American history. I have voted for the largest intelligence budgets in American history. And I have consistently laid out the steps we should take to make America stronger and safer in the war on terror. The president has consistently avoided those choices.
Time and again, when he had a chance to be able to protect us more effectively, he chose otherwise. He didn't protect the borders in Iraq. He didn't put enough troops in. He fired his own army chief of staff when his army chief of staff said how many troops he'd need, and now Paul Bremer is saying what a terrible mistake it was.
The president need to be taking accountability for his own judgments. What we are looking for here is presidential leadership that can make America safer. I can make America safer in homeland security. I can make America safer with the plan for success in Iraq. And I can make America safer with the plan to bring allies back to the effort for the legitimate war on terror.
Saddam Hussein was not connected to Al Qaeda, not connected to Osama Bin Laden. Saddam Hussein was a diversion from the real war on terror, and that has made America less safe.
QUESTION: Senator, you've talked repeatedly about how America is bearing 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the cost of the war...
KERRY: Coalition cost.
QUESTION: Coalition.
Correct.
QUESTION: But then you talked in the town (INAUDIBLE).
KERRY: Well, certain countries are not. When I was referring to that plan, I was really talking about Germany and France and some of the countries that have been most restrained. Other countries are, obviously, more willing to accept responsibilities.
The bottom line is this, the coalition that is there today, I admire and I respect all the countries that have been willing to be involved in any way whatsoever, and I don't denigrate them. But the truth is, there are about 135,000, 140,000 American troops. There are 8,300 British. There are, I think, four countries with somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 troops, and the rest are in the single hundreds, and they're not in combat. The fact is, is that most of this is being carried by America, and that's the truth, and Americans know it.
Now, it is going to take a new president, with new credibility, with judgment that the rest of the world trusts, with a relationship that can be built with countries, again, on trust with the United States, rather than pushing them away, to bring people back to the table. I believe that a fresh start is critical. And I am confident of my ability to be able to bring countries to the table to understand the stakes and to change the entire dynamic, the dynamic of reconstruction, the elections themselves and the U.N. participation, the security on the ground, the training of Iraqi forces, and most importantly, obviously, the willingness of allies to participate, because you're willing to approach that in a reasonable way.
QUESTION: Senator, how important is tonight's debate? More specifically, how important is it for Dick Cheney to stem any...
KERRY: You know, I don't -- I don't do that stuff. You guys do. And you all figure it out. I just know this, I picked a guy to be my running mate.
PHILLIPS: John Kerry, live, from Tipton, Iowa, there.
As you know, we've been talking about those comments -- and John Kerry referred to those comments -- by Paul Bremer. Paul Bremer being the head of rebuilding Iraq, and has now, of course, left that position as Iraq takes over its own sovereignty.
But Paul Bremer had come forward making comments about post-war Iraq, not enough troops there to keep the peace, and sort of criticizing America's war plan. John Kerry there, taking those comments to his advantage, as he proceed to have a run for the presidency of the United States.
Now below here, we have a response to John Kerry's comments on ambassador Bremer today. This comes from the Bush/Cheney camp. It reads, "Ambassador Bremer differed with the commanders in the field. That is his right, but the president has always said that he will listen to his commanders on the ground and give them support they need for victory. Ambassador Bremer also said that we currently have enough troops, that the war in Iraq is integral to the war on terror, and that the removal of Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do."
He continues on and says, "The consistency stands in sharp contrast to the shifting positions of John Kerry, who voted for the war, voted against the troops for political gain, said the war was the right decision and said it was the wrong war. The fact is that John Kerry doesn't have a vision to the win the war on terror, and doesn't even know what he believes about the central front in that war."
Obviously, a war of words, all stemming from Paul Bremer's comments today. Bush camp and John Kerry camp both speaking out on those comments.
We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired October 5, 2004 - 13:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you can call tonight's VP debate the political version of the "Thrilla in Manila." In one corner, the challenger John Edwards in this one-time only verbal bout with the titleholder, Dick Cheney. Will he float like a butterfly or sting like a bee?
CNN's Joe Johns in Ohio with the Edwards campaign as final preparations are made, ahead of tonight's clash in Cleveland.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the run-up to the debate, Senator John Edwards appearing at the Parma, Ohio, Community Center about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland. Three hundred people were expected to attend. Among them, about one-third undecided voters. This is ground that has been tread before by the vice president, appearing there in July. This was supposed to be Edwards' only campaign stop before the debate.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John Kerry's message was clear, and it was unmistakable. So, we hope, with a little luck, with me doing my job, that that same message will come through loud and clear tonight.
JOHNS: Meanwhile, Edwards' aides continue to downplay expectations for the North Carolina senator in the debate, indicating that this is his first on-camera, one-on-one debate in his political career. At the same time, Republicans say, he is a seasoned trial lawyer and a veteran of numerous debates in the presidential primaries.
Much has been made of the study in contrast here, two very different men. They have spent the last several weeks beating up on each other. Cheney talking about the trial lawyers, Edwards keying on Halliburton. Now for the first time, scheduled to meet in Cleveland, face-to-face in a debate.
Joe Johns, CNN, Cleveland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Now, the other side of the table and a seasoned political veteran, CNN's Dana bash checking in from the Dick Cheney campaign, as the standing vice president gets ready for primetime.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is this day, these September 11 images the vice president hopes to remind voters of in tonight's debate. He was the one directing response in the president's absence and he's the one you'd want if needed next time, not a one term senator.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. REAGAN CHIEF OF STAFF: The first measure of a vice president, is he ready to step in and be president today? Not tomorrow, not next year, but today. I think Dick Cheney is going to demonstrate that yet again. And I think John Edwards has a big uphill climb.
BASH: Cheney aides say his debate strategy mirrors what he does on the stump -- defend and promote the president's policies, attack his opponents as liberal on taxes and weak on national defense.
DICK CHENEY (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When it comes to diplomacy, it looks to me like John Kerry should stick to wind surfing.
BASH: But Mr. Cheney's unparalleled influence is a target for Democrats. They say he embodies a highly secretive White House and aides are bracing to hear one name a lot -- Halliburton -- and the accusation the vice president helped his old firm get lucrative Iraq contracts.
But Cheney officials insist he didn't overly prepare a defense, calling it unnecessary.
While aides say 40 years of government experience is his greatest asset, they try to manage expectations by calling Mr. Cheney's liability John Edwards' debating skills.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He isn't somebody who is going to hit the oratory of the trial lawyer. He isn't somebody who is going to be the charismatic dynamic figure.
BASH (on camera): The Cheney spin is that John Edwards was picked just for tonight, calling him the man with the golden tongue. And despite the fact Cheney aides are trying to downplay any heightened significance for this debate, they do hope that Mr. Cheney's appeal with the GOP base could help energize rank-and-file Republicans disappointed about Mr. Bush's debate last week.
Dana Bash, CNN, Cleveland, Ohio.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: And CNN's got your ringside seat tonight. Our complete coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. The debate is scheduled for 9:00 p.m. Eastern.
John Edwards is a relatively new player on the scene. We thought it might be interesting to see exactly how well he is known overseas?
CNN's London bureau took the question, who is John Edwards, along with a photographer, to the streets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. I don't know. American guy, obviously. Oh, he's probably the running mate for -- the guy with the big chin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, that's the vice president, isn't it, Edwards?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not Dick Cheney. He's on TV tonight. He's doing vice presidential debates. And it's Kerry and -- I've even got a bumper sticker on my fridge. I'm trying to think of it. Kerry and -- it's not Robinson, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone in America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he's running with Kerry isn't he? His side kick. Can't think of his name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, on tour with "The Da Vinci Code." Hitting the hotspots from the superhot book. Find out what it's like and what the regular non-"Da Vinci" tourists think about it.
And -- I can't do it, Vicky (ph), I'm trying to sing. Tell me why so many bananas are piled up in Trafalgar Square. Harry Belafonte, I'm going to call him now to sing the tease for a second go-around.
LIVE FROM takes you around the world, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Fans of the blockbuster novel "The Da Vinci Code" are flocking to Paris to compare details in the fictional book to what's really there. Sometime, as Jim Bittermann uncovers, they need a little convincing about what is true.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a dark and stormy night, yet at the Church of Saint Sulpice in Paris, there isn't a single self-mutilating albino monk in sight. At the Louvre museum, not one curator lies dead on the parkay floor. And in a hay loft outside Paris, the secret listening post just isn't there.
Yet, even if they can't find all the details mentioned in the book, "Da Vinci Code" fans seem to have an insatiable need to link the fiction to reality -- especially at the Louvre, where the opening murder scene takes place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the reasons we're going to the Louvre -- I mean, we've been here several times. But it's trying to see it again exactly because of "The Da Vinci Code." JACQUE LE ROUX, ART HISTORIAN & LOUVRE GUIDE: For sure, they're trying to match the truth and the fiction.
BITTERMANN: An art historian who gives tours of the Louvre happily corrects errors in the murder mystery, including one in the first paragraph where the victim is described as a 76-year-old curator. Everyone knows, he says, mandatory retirement age in France is 65.
Still, the art expert is not critical of "Da Vinci Code" tourists.
LE ROUX: There's no bad reason to come through the Louvre, so it's -- no, it's quite -- for us, as tour guides, it's very interesting as well, because I mean, we can start a conversation and talk about some other things.
BITTERMANN: But across town at Saint Sulpice, where the novel's mad monk uses a candleholder to murder a fictional nun, church fathers are not so upbeat about the new tourists. They felt obliged to put up a sign explaining that the brass strip running across the floor is not, what the book describes, as a pagan astronomical device.
MICHEL ROUGE, ST. SULPICE HISTORIAN: It says a lot of things that are not true, and I'm annoyed at the first three lines, saying that everything in the book, which is historic, controversial, is accurate.
BITTERMANN: Some even believe "The Da Vinci Code" is an attack on Christian.
(on camera): The book supposes that Mary Magdalene was the lover, if not wife, of Jesus Christ and that the two had a child, who then became part of the bloodline of the kings of France, and that Opus Dei, one of the fastest growing movement in the Catholic church, is populated with assassins and plotters.
(voice-over): Another factor that has caused Catholics in particular to take a work of fiction so seriously is the novel's huge popularity on both sides of the Atlantic.
JOHN ALLEN, NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER: What that indicates is there is a tremendous spiritual interest and tremendous hunger out there that, for whatever reason, institutional Christianity does not seem to be able to satisfy.
BITTERMANN: True, the passions of the "Code-heads" run deep. At the Chateau de Villette, American owner Olivia Decker discovered her property figures notably in "The Da Vinci Code." So, she's begun catering to "Da Vinci Code" tourists, sharing her home for $55,000 a week.
And she thinks the book's popularity is just beginning. She's already been contacted by a film company, planning to shoot "Da Vinci Code," the movie, in and around her chateau.
Jim Bittermann, CNN, Villette, France.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, our next guest says that using "The Da Vinci Code" to learn church history is like reading James Bond novels to learn about the Cold War. He should know -- in addition to being a Minneapolis radio talk show host, Ian Punnett is a seminary graduate and director of adult education at St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral. He joins us to talk about leading a "Da Vinci Code" tour.
So, Ian, am I allowed to call you a "Code-head."
IAN PUNNETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good afternoon, Kyra. No, I guess I wouldn't be considered one, only in that "Code-heads," I suppose, are people that are really kind of upside down in the novel and looking for truth everywhere in it.
PHILLIPS: Well, I'm curious, as you took this group on the tour, did they all read the book, first of all?
PUNNETT: Well, almost everybody did. We took 20 people from the Twin Cities and from the upper Midwest, and about 18 of the 20 had already read it or had even gone so far as to kind of study it. About two were reading it on the flight over from the Midwest to Paris.
PHILLIPS: Now, are they all believers, or were -- there were a mixture of believer/nonbeliever?
PUNNETT: Well, I guess it depends how we define believers. I mean, certainly many of them were Christian believers, but some people also were very interested in the claims of the book and wanted to see how much truth could be found in what the author, Dan Brown, purports, in regard to Christianity and churches and secrets and secret architecture, and all sorts of sort of the clandestine nature of the -- of the novel.
PHILLIPS: All right. So, as you went to certain spots...
PUNNETT: All of them.
PHILLIPS: Yes, you went to all of them. OK, you went to every single spot. I'm curious what kind of discussions came up at certain venues. I mean, when you were walking in the Louvre with the book underneath your arm, were people give giving you these looks like "grrr?"
PUNNETT: Well, and they were. It was interesting to hear in Jim Bittermann's piece there how he was talking about how this has sort of been embraced by the tour guides. We didn't experience a lot of embracing by the French for "The Da Vinci Code." Although they were very nice about it, they also kind of threw us a lot of looks, almost as though to say, you mean it took this to get you to come see the Louvre? It took this to come get you to see the "Mona Lisa?"
I mean, for them, it's just beautiful enough on its own and that should be sufficient. But they're glad for the American tourism, they're glad for the influx of American dollars, and they were very hospitable for us.
PHILLIPS: All right, so from the Louvre to Saint Sulpice, let's say, what kind of discussions arose once you entered the church?
PUNNETT: Well, it's an excellent point. It was probably in the actual sort of eyeballing of each thing that gets mentioned in the novel that the discussions came up. Did this meet our expectations, sometimes of the sinister or the secretive nature of these items or locations?
In the case of Saint Sulpice, there were little things, of course, that just kind of seem sort of silly. You know, there are no pews in Saint Sulpice, and the pews are mentioned prominently in the book. And sometimes you wonder did Dan Brown ever actually go to this church.
But the obelisk itself in the corner, it was right there by the sign from the church telling people don't expect this to be a pagan symbol and a whole history about how it was installed in the church under the church's auspice, part of the way they could use to determine when Easter was back before they had more, you know, complex astronomical settings.
PHILLIPS: Wow. Saint Sulpice -- I better practice saying that correctly. I didn't say it very well.
So, other discussions -- obviously did people come out of this tour saying, "Oh, I'm much more faithful, I'm stronger now," or, "Oh, boy, I'm backing away, I got a lot of questions now."
PUNNETT: Well, really it came right down to was a lot of the interest in the book, I think, is driven by the aspects of the divine feminine, which are discussed in the novel. And I think that's the part of the book that really hooks people the most is that aspect, that sort of missing aspect of a God that is all too spoken of in just simply male pronouns or male metaphors.
And so, about three to one of the people on the trip were female to male. And I think that it was a lot of -- a lot of discussion about -- about women and about the role of Mary Magdalene, and all of these aspects of the -- the less talked about female side of Christian history, that's what was really -- that's what we kept coming back to in the hotel rooms.
PHILLIPS: Interesting. So finally, I guess, at the end of the trip, taking sort of the deep sense of the novel, and then taking this tour, do you realize the book is more fact or fiction?
PUNNETT: Well, I mean, the book tells us that it's fiction. Some of the things which they have kind of let out as sort of implying that it's fact, like Opus Dei as being these arch criminals, that really comes down as very unfair.
We met with the Opus Dei people. They were perfectly wonderful. They were transparent for us. They answered all of our even embarrassing questions. It was very hard in the end to feel like the book had done them justice. And I think some of the other aspects of the book follow in the inverse. Some people who are held up as saints in the long run, the more we looked at them, the more we thought perhaps those people of history just weren't as great as we've been told they were.
PHILLIPS: Interesting. Well, I can't imagine you ever asking an embarrassing question, Ian Punnett, but thank you -- as he looks into the camera.
Interesting, tell us about the next tour, all right?
PUNNETT: All right, will do. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: All right, thank you. You had us all fascinated by it. Thanks, Ian.
Well, straight ahead, flu vaccine news for you. An update on our top story, right after this.
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PHILLIPS As his vice -- or VP candidate, rather, John Edwards, gets ready to debate tonight, John Kerry now holding a live news conference in Tipton, Iowa. Let's listen in.
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SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said, quote, "I haven't seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."
Behind the scenes in all of these discussions and presentations is Dick Cheney. And it's time for the vice president to be accountable and to answer the questions that have arisen.
Folks, for weeks, I've been asking the president of the United States to level with the American people and to be candid about the situation in Iraq and about what we face. Maybe he's simply unwilling to face the truth or to share it with the American people. But the president's stubbornness has prevented him from seeing each step of the way the difficulties and the ways in which we best protect our troops and best accomplish this mission.
I think it's time for America to have leadership that knows how to get the job done and that's prepared to level with the American people.
Be happy to answer any questions.
QUESTION: Yesterday, the president just flatly said your policies would make the world a more dangerous place. Do you have a response?
KERRY: Well, that's the sort of blanket scare tactic of the administration, rather than try to deal with the real choices before the country. I've made it clear, and I'll make it clearer every day -- I defended this country and fought for this country and bled for this country as a young man. I know what it takes to defend America. I have voted for the biggest defense budgets in American history. I have voted for the largest intelligence budgets in American history. And I have consistently laid out the steps we should take to make America stronger and safer in the war on terror. The president has consistently avoided those choices.
Time and again, when he had a chance to be able to protect us more effectively, he chose otherwise. He didn't protect the borders in Iraq. He didn't put enough troops in. He fired his own army chief of staff when his army chief of staff said how many troops he'd need, and now Paul Bremer is saying what a terrible mistake it was.
The president need to be taking accountability for his own judgments. What we are looking for here is presidential leadership that can make America safer. I can make America safer in homeland security. I can make America safer with the plan for success in Iraq. And I can make America safer with the plan to bring allies back to the effort for the legitimate war on terror.
Saddam Hussein was not connected to Al Qaeda, not connected to Osama Bin Laden. Saddam Hussein was a diversion from the real war on terror, and that has made America less safe.
QUESTION: Senator, you've talked repeatedly about how America is bearing 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the cost of the war...
KERRY: Coalition cost.
QUESTION: Coalition.
Correct.
QUESTION: But then you talked in the town (INAUDIBLE).
KERRY: Well, certain countries are not. When I was referring to that plan, I was really talking about Germany and France and some of the countries that have been most restrained. Other countries are, obviously, more willing to accept responsibilities.
The bottom line is this, the coalition that is there today, I admire and I respect all the countries that have been willing to be involved in any way whatsoever, and I don't denigrate them. But the truth is, there are about 135,000, 140,000 American troops. There are 8,300 British. There are, I think, four countries with somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 troops, and the rest are in the single hundreds, and they're not in combat. The fact is, is that most of this is being carried by America, and that's the truth, and Americans know it.
Now, it is going to take a new president, with new credibility, with judgment that the rest of the world trusts, with a relationship that can be built with countries, again, on trust with the United States, rather than pushing them away, to bring people back to the table. I believe that a fresh start is critical. And I am confident of my ability to be able to bring countries to the table to understand the stakes and to change the entire dynamic, the dynamic of reconstruction, the elections themselves and the U.N. participation, the security on the ground, the training of Iraqi forces, and most importantly, obviously, the willingness of allies to participate, because you're willing to approach that in a reasonable way.
QUESTION: Senator, how important is tonight's debate? More specifically, how important is it for Dick Cheney to stem any...
KERRY: You know, I don't -- I don't do that stuff. You guys do. And you all figure it out. I just know this, I picked a guy to be my running mate.
PHILLIPS: John Kerry, live, from Tipton, Iowa, there.
As you know, we've been talking about those comments -- and John Kerry referred to those comments -- by Paul Bremer. Paul Bremer being the head of rebuilding Iraq, and has now, of course, left that position as Iraq takes over its own sovereignty.
But Paul Bremer had come forward making comments about post-war Iraq, not enough troops there to keep the peace, and sort of criticizing America's war plan. John Kerry there, taking those comments to his advantage, as he proceed to have a run for the presidency of the United States.
Now below here, we have a response to John Kerry's comments on ambassador Bremer today. This comes from the Bush/Cheney camp. It reads, "Ambassador Bremer differed with the commanders in the field. That is his right, but the president has always said that he will listen to his commanders on the ground and give them support they need for victory. Ambassador Bremer also said that we currently have enough troops, that the war in Iraq is integral to the war on terror, and that the removal of Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do."
He continues on and says, "The consistency stands in sharp contrast to the shifting positions of John Kerry, who voted for the war, voted against the troops for political gain, said the war was the right decision and said it was the wrong war. The fact is that John Kerry doesn't have a vision to the win the war on terror, and doesn't even know what he believes about the central front in that war."
Obviously, a war of words, all stemming from Paul Bremer's comments today. Bush camp and John Kerry camp both speaking out on those comments.
We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.
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