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Soldier Pleads Guilty in Prison Abuse Case; Kerry: Bush Confuses Iraq with War on Terror; Pulpit Politics Come into Play

Aired October 20, 2004 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Turning up the heat. Coalition forces use air strikes to try to smash the insurgency. We're live from Baghdad.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Frank Buckley, live in Pittsburgh, where Senator John Kerry will appear later today. Earlier today, he said that President Bush is confusing the war on terror with the war in Iraq. That story coming up.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux in -- at the White House on the president's swing through those critical battleground states in the Midwest. Coming up.

TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Politics and the church. In a tight race, are both candidates are hoping for divine intervention?

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Tony Harris, in for Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips, CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

HARRIS: And up first this hour, guilt in Abu Ghraib. The highest-ranking U.S. soldier charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners pleaded guilty today and pledged to testify in other cases.

In other headlines, CARE stands down after its top Iraqi official is kidnapped, and children are said to be among the latest victims of U.S. air strikes in Fallujah.

We get the latest on all of this from CNN's Karl Penhaul in Baghdad.

Hello, Karl.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Tony.

At the court-martial in Baghdad today, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick, he's the most senior soldier so far to face justice in -- on accusations of participating in this Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

Now, in a plea bargain with the -- with the tribunal, he did plead guilty to five counts, all of these broadly speaking, referred to sexually humiliating and beating prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

This process is going on for another day tomorrow. At the end of that, Frederick could be sentenced to up to 11 years.

But I guess one of the things to keep our eyes on here is not only the length of sentence handed down to Frederick, but also whether more evidence emerges that senior officers higher up the military ranks were also involved in handing down orders to other soldiers to carry out this pattern of abuse.

Now in another situation also here in Baghdad, the wait goes on for Margaret Hassan. She's that senior aid worker, the country director for Iraq for CARE International. Now, there have been no further demand. There's been no furtherer word from the kidnappers beyond what we saw aired yesterday on Al Jazeera, a short video clip showing Hassan in a room.

Nevertheless, her husband, who is an Iraqi national, has been talking and gave a few more details of how he was -- how she was kidnapped. What he said is that Margaret Hassan, as she was on her way to work yesterday morning, was intercepted by two cars. Gunmen got out of those cars, raced to Margaret Hassan's vehicle, pulled out her driver, her companion and then got into that car and sped off with Margaret Hassan onboard.

The husband says that he believes there may be a political motive behind this, not just a straightforward kidnap for ransom.

HARRIS: Karl Penhaul reporting live from Baghdad. Karl, thank you.

PHILLIPS: Two weeks from today we may know who won the presidential race or not. Until then we can say this about the Kerry camp. They don't believe in omens.

Thirteen days before the election, the challenger fired off a blistering speech on leadership in Waterloo -- Iowa, that is. From there it's off to Pittsburgh, where we catch up with CNN's Frank Buckley.

Hi, Frank.

BUCKLEY: Hi there, Kyra.

Senator Kerry coming here to Pittsburgh to Carnegie Melon University later for a rally, but earlier, as you said, he was in Iowa, delivering a speech on national security.

The Senator doing a couple of things. One, defending against the blistering criticisms that continue to come his way from President Bush on his national security credentials.

And two, trying to make the case that President Bush mismanaged the war in Iraq and the war on terror. Kerry said President Bush likes to, in Kerry's words, confuse the two. He said Iraq was a profound diversion from the war on terror. But now Senator Kerry says the U.S. must and will prevail in both wars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Iraq, because the president's miscalculations have created a terrorist haven, that wasn't there before, and in the worldwide struggle against terrorists, because they attacked us. They represent the greatest threat to security in our time.

In Iraq every week brings fresh evidence that President Bush just doesn't see what's happening. And he isn't leveling with the American people about why we went to war, how the war is going and he has no idea how to put our policy back on track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: The criticisms on President Bush and Iraq all coming within the campaign's framework, its theme that President Bush can't fix problems if he can't -- if he doesn't acknowledge them. A framework that they've also tried to apply to domestic policy, as well.

The Bush campaign saying that this is criticism coming from -- with failed pre-9/11 policies from a pre-9/11 candidate.

Finally, Democrats are pretty excited today about another development of the campaign. President Clinton, the former president, has confirmed that he will in fact appear at a rally on Monday in Philadelphia with Senator Kerry.

President Clinton, of course, hasn't been able to campaign to date because of his recovery from quadruple bypass surgery, but Democrats, many Democrats were hoping that he would get out and help Kerry. He has been advising Kerry by phone, and now apparently he's going to be making a joint appearance with Senator Kerry here in the state of Pennsylvania on Monday -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Frank Buckley, thanks so much -- Tony.

HARRIS: Well, Kyra, it is a measure of how few battleground states there are left that once again Bush and Kerry found themselves in the same state today at the same time. We're talking Iowa, barely 80 miles apart, after which Bush went north.

And we go to CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

Hi, Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Hello, this day, of course, is critical for a Bush win. As you know he's going to three different states that he narrowly lost to Gore back in 2000, some by just several thousand votes.

The first stop, of course, President Bush at Mason City, Iowa. A Bush camp has registered some 25,000 volunteers there. They specifically went to central Iowa for his 20th trip. Of course, the president certainly hoping to close the gap. He lost by just 4,000 votes there.

Second stop is Rochester, Minnesota. That is where the focus, of course, is going to be on the economy.

His third stop Eau Claire, Wisconsin. That is where, specifically, he is going to be talking about how his own economic plan is beneficial for those in the rural areas.

Now the president's strategy really is twofold. Of course, he is talking up his own economic policies, domestic policies dealing with health care and education, but he continues, as well, to slam Kerry on what he says are the inconsistencies on Iraq, a weakness in the war on terror.

And today he used a new example. He used an example of the Jordanian militant, al Zarqawi. He is believed to be behind the beheadings in Iraq. He says this is simply another example of how his opponent Kerry has a fundamental misunderstanding in the war on terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Just the other day Zarqawi publicly announced his sworn allegiance to Osama bin Laden. If Zarqawi and his associates were not busy fighting American forces in Iraq, does Senator Kerry think he would be leading a productive and peaceful life? Of course not. And that's why Iraq is no diversion, but a central commitment in the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And also the president continues to hit back at Kerry when he's challenging him on some of the issues that seem to be resonating with the voters. That is the shortage of the flu vaccine, the future of Social Security as well, as this debate over the possibility of a wartime draft -- Tony.

HARRIS: Suzanne Malveaux, live from the White House. Suzanne, thank you.

PHILLIPS: Religion and the race for the White House. Should the two be tied together? We're going to talk about it straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

And from winning hearts and minds and to just winning a little trust. The new tactics for survival in Iraq.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Well, the Constitution says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Indeed, one of the founding principles of the United States was to establish separation between church and state.

But there is no law governing the separation of church and church members over political issues.

CNN's Tom Foreman on the conflict between John Kerry and the Catholic Church.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest attack on how John Kerry practices Catholicism is coming from an anti- abortion activist in Los Angeles who wants the senator excommunicated for supporting abortion rights.

MARC BALESTRIERI, CANON LAWYER: Senator Kerry, like any other pro-choice Catholic politician, has a right choose to be Catholic or not, but if he does choose to be Catholic, he cannot support publicly abortion.

FOREMAN: Kerry, who is called devoutly Catholic by friends, may be drawing attacks because he is being more public with his faith.

Early in his campaign he rarely mentioned God.

KERRY: I am a Catholic.

FOREMAN: Now he often explains how his Catholicism will fit into his presidency.

KERRY: It's an article of faith for me. It's not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

FOREMAN: But Kerry has been under fire for some Catholics for months.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Kerry, are you against the teachings of the Catholic church?

FOREMAN: Over the summer, 16 bishops suggested any elected Catholic leader who supports abortion rights should not take communion.

FATHER WILLIAM MAESTRI, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW ORLEANS: Simply because you are an elected official you do not have a pass on the fundamental obligation that you have to protect innocent human life.

FOREMAN (on camera): Catholics, however, disagree with those bishops about three to one, and they have demonstrated that in poll after poll.

(voice-over) They have overwhelmingly said that Catholic voters have no obligation to back anti-abortion candidates, that the church's position will make no difference in how they vote, and that Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should still get communion.

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: We're talking about less than a handful of bishops that have said that John Kerry can't go to communion in their diocese. The real headlines should be 180 bishops do not say John Kerry can't go to communion in their diocese.

JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no article of my faith that would in any way inhibit.

FOREMAN: Forty-four years ago the nation's only Catholic president, John Kennedy, had to persuade voters his faith would not dictate his policies. Now John Kerry must deal with a vocal minority in his own church that says defend the faith to the letter or get out.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Quickly now. Live pictures out of Rochester, Minnesota. President Bush, of course, on the campaign trail, this event focusing on the economy, rallying up votes in a state, of course, dominated by Al Gore back in 2000.

We're going to monitor what he has to say and bring you portions of that later on. We're listening to it.

Meanwhile, we're talking about religion and politics. Catholics aren't the only religious denomination getting involved in pulpit politics this year. Some churches are telling their congregations that they will, quote, "Go to hell if they don't vote for Bush."

And "The New York Times" reported that the Republican National Committee actually mailed flyers to voters in two states suggesting liberals want to ban the Bible. Talk about a hot-button issue.

But we want to explore pulpit politics further and whether fear is being used to exploit people's beliefs and even gather votes.

We've got two guests with us today. From the First Baptist Church of Washington, D.C., Reverend Jim Green Somerville, and from Atlanta's Emery University, theology Professor Dr. Joseph Brown.

Great to have you both.

REV. JIM GREEN, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, looking -- looking back a bit and I'm talking a very long time. If you were to look at Jefferson and Adams we came across this quote actually from a Congregationalist clergyman, saying that it is "that our churches may become temples of reason, the Bible cast into a bonfire, our children chanting mockeries against God." This was stated if Jefferson won the election.

So pulpit politics is not you -- or is not new, right, Jim?

GREEN: Pulpit politics have been going on a long time and it seems to be going to more this year than in my recent memory. PHILLIPS: What do you think, Mike? Is it going on now more than ever before?

PROF. MICHAEL JOSEPH BROWN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Think in some ways, I mean, we have a rise of fundamentalism in the last century in this country. People have been afraid of what religion might do if they were cast out of the public realm.

This seems to be extremely contentious, though. I mean, it's often kind of strange to me just how religion is coming up in this current political debate.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the fear factor here. Looking back at the first quote about some of the congregations being told they're going to go to hell if they don't vote for Bush.

Jim, what do you think? Would you preach in front of your congregation who you thought would be the next president? Would you encourage your congregation to vote for a certain candidate?

GREEN: I certainly encourage my congregation to vote. But I'm not going to tell them who to vote for. Good pastors just don't do that.

PHILLIPS: Mike, what about you? You pastored for five years?

BROWN: yes. We're people of faith and I think that our religious conviction dos have something to do with our political lives.

I don't think I would tell people exactly who to vote for, but I do think that we would need to talk about our core convictions as Christians, what it is we believe is right and how we should act on that. And that helps us draw some clear lines.

I think that sometimes, though, those lines get blurred in the current political debate and people get, you know, polarized around -- around certain issues, which seems kind of odd to me.

PHILLIPS: "The New York Times" reported the RNC, you know, mailed these flyers to certain states, suggesting that liberals want to ban the Bible. When you -- when you look at what's taking place here throughout this election, Jim, do you see an exploitation of religion going on?

GREEN: I think it is often used to create just the kind of climate you're talking about, when people are afraid and they are voting for someone or something because of their fear.

I've seen this sort of thing take place in the Southern Baptist Convention. Politics, the politics of that denomination over the last 25 years and it's the same sort of thing.

They were saying us to then that the liberals want to destroy the Bible. They want to tear pages out of it. They don't believe all of it, forcing a vote for the other candidate as president of the denomination.

So this sounds so much like what I've heard in my own denomination in past years, and it is just playing to the fear.

PHILLIPS: Mike...

GREEN: It's not true, of course. It's not true.

PHILLIPS: Mike, religion is such a personal thing. Do you think that -- that exploiting religion in a political manner, if you believe that's what's taking place, would offend people to where they wouldn't even want to come out and vote?

BROWN: Well, I mean, religion is a personal thing, but it also is a social thing. And I don't think we need to separate that too much. I think sometimes we overemphasize and people who have been called liberal have been overemphasizing, I guess, in some ways the personal links to religion.

It is a corporate -- it is a corporate phenomenon.

Will it keep people from voting? I don't -- I don't think so. I think that what -- what it -- what it has done is energized certain bases, particularly conservatives have been doing very well at getting out the vote for things that they're fearful of, same-sex marriage, you know, the Bible.

I hope we don't -- liberals don't take pages out of the Bible. I teach the New Testament, so it would really -- it would put me out of a job. But I do think that that fear mongering is going on. It's going on in our churches; it's going on in our academic institutions. We as a country are becoming increasingly polarized in the last 20 years around issues such as religion.

PHILLIPS: Well, how important do you think it is to have a moral president? I mean, if we really get down and dirty here, no pun intended, you can trace liars and cheaters way back when. And these presidents have still remained very popular.

What do you think, Jim? Is it really as important as some people say?

GREEN: I think it's very important to have a moral president. But sometimes we get confused about this and say we have to elect a Christian president to run our Christian nation.

And I just think the truth is that John Kerry and George Bush both are human beings. If either of them is elected, they will make some good decisions and some bad decisions. I hope more good ones than bad ones. And I would hope they make their decisions on the basis of their moral convictions.

But the truth is whoever we vote for on November 2 is going to be a sinner. That's how we have to remember this, and so we can't assume that we'll vote for one Christian candidate or one that is un- Christian. Both of these are men who are going to try to do the best job they can and to be moral people.

I really -- I dislike it that George W. Bush is being presented as the moral candidate, and so many Christians are being told that if they don't vote for Bush they are voting for someone who is immoral.

PHILLIPS: Mike -- for the sake of fairness, I'm sorry. Jim, I hate to cut you off.

GREEN: OK.

PHILLIPS: But real quickly because we've got to go. The last election 62 percent -- 62 percent of regular churchgoers voted for Bush. Mike, quickly, do you think that the key to this election is getting those voters back out there?

BROWN: Yes. I think we -- you know, I would like to have a moral president. I think that, actually in truth our most moral president has been Jimmy Carter, whose presidency we thought has failed. I don't like people who talk morality but do something else.

PHILLIPS: Gentlemen, thanks for your time today.

GREEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next, on LIVE FROM, the hunt for Osama bin Laden, a hot political issue. But how hot are troops on his trail? An update from the Pentagon.

Later on LIVE FROM, comedian George Carlin, colorful, controversial and calling it like he sees it. His take on politics and pop culture in the LIVE FROM interview.

And tomorrow...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The innovator of soul, Ray Charles!

PHILLIPS: A stand-up comic gets serious to play a music legend. Jamie Foxx joins us to talk about what it was like to meet and portray legendary Ray Charles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, calling all die-hard U2 fans, forget the line at the record store and don't wait to download. There's another way to get your hands on U2's upcoming album, and Rhonda Schaffler, she's all over it.

Big U2 fan, huh, Rhonda?

(STOCK REPORT)

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Aired October 20, 2004 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Turning up the heat. Coalition forces use air strikes to try to smash the insurgency. We're live from Baghdad.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Frank Buckley, live in Pittsburgh, where Senator John Kerry will appear later today. Earlier today, he said that President Bush is confusing the war on terror with the war in Iraq. That story coming up.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux in -- at the White House on the president's swing through those critical battleground states in the Midwest. Coming up.

TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Politics and the church. In a tight race, are both candidates are hoping for divine intervention?

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Tony Harris, in for Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips, CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

HARRIS: And up first this hour, guilt in Abu Ghraib. The highest-ranking U.S. soldier charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners pleaded guilty today and pledged to testify in other cases.

In other headlines, CARE stands down after its top Iraqi official is kidnapped, and children are said to be among the latest victims of U.S. air strikes in Fallujah.

We get the latest on all of this from CNN's Karl Penhaul in Baghdad.

Hello, Karl.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Tony.

At the court-martial in Baghdad today, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick, he's the most senior soldier so far to face justice in -- on accusations of participating in this Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

Now, in a plea bargain with the -- with the tribunal, he did plead guilty to five counts, all of these broadly speaking, referred to sexually humiliating and beating prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

This process is going on for another day tomorrow. At the end of that, Frederick could be sentenced to up to 11 years.

But I guess one of the things to keep our eyes on here is not only the length of sentence handed down to Frederick, but also whether more evidence emerges that senior officers higher up the military ranks were also involved in handing down orders to other soldiers to carry out this pattern of abuse.

Now in another situation also here in Baghdad, the wait goes on for Margaret Hassan. She's that senior aid worker, the country director for Iraq for CARE International. Now, there have been no further demand. There's been no furtherer word from the kidnappers beyond what we saw aired yesterday on Al Jazeera, a short video clip showing Hassan in a room.

Nevertheless, her husband, who is an Iraqi national, has been talking and gave a few more details of how he was -- how she was kidnapped. What he said is that Margaret Hassan, as she was on her way to work yesterday morning, was intercepted by two cars. Gunmen got out of those cars, raced to Margaret Hassan's vehicle, pulled out her driver, her companion and then got into that car and sped off with Margaret Hassan onboard.

The husband says that he believes there may be a political motive behind this, not just a straightforward kidnap for ransom.

HARRIS: Karl Penhaul reporting live from Baghdad. Karl, thank you.

PHILLIPS: Two weeks from today we may know who won the presidential race or not. Until then we can say this about the Kerry camp. They don't believe in omens.

Thirteen days before the election, the challenger fired off a blistering speech on leadership in Waterloo -- Iowa, that is. From there it's off to Pittsburgh, where we catch up with CNN's Frank Buckley.

Hi, Frank.

BUCKLEY: Hi there, Kyra.

Senator Kerry coming here to Pittsburgh to Carnegie Melon University later for a rally, but earlier, as you said, he was in Iowa, delivering a speech on national security.

The Senator doing a couple of things. One, defending against the blistering criticisms that continue to come his way from President Bush on his national security credentials.

And two, trying to make the case that President Bush mismanaged the war in Iraq and the war on terror. Kerry said President Bush likes to, in Kerry's words, confuse the two. He said Iraq was a profound diversion from the war on terror. But now Senator Kerry says the U.S. must and will prevail in both wars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Iraq, because the president's miscalculations have created a terrorist haven, that wasn't there before, and in the worldwide struggle against terrorists, because they attacked us. They represent the greatest threat to security in our time.

In Iraq every week brings fresh evidence that President Bush just doesn't see what's happening. And he isn't leveling with the American people about why we went to war, how the war is going and he has no idea how to put our policy back on track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: The criticisms on President Bush and Iraq all coming within the campaign's framework, its theme that President Bush can't fix problems if he can't -- if he doesn't acknowledge them. A framework that they've also tried to apply to domestic policy, as well.

The Bush campaign saying that this is criticism coming from -- with failed pre-9/11 policies from a pre-9/11 candidate.

Finally, Democrats are pretty excited today about another development of the campaign. President Clinton, the former president, has confirmed that he will in fact appear at a rally on Monday in Philadelphia with Senator Kerry.

President Clinton, of course, hasn't been able to campaign to date because of his recovery from quadruple bypass surgery, but Democrats, many Democrats were hoping that he would get out and help Kerry. He has been advising Kerry by phone, and now apparently he's going to be making a joint appearance with Senator Kerry here in the state of Pennsylvania on Monday -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Frank Buckley, thanks so much -- Tony.

HARRIS: Well, Kyra, it is a measure of how few battleground states there are left that once again Bush and Kerry found themselves in the same state today at the same time. We're talking Iowa, barely 80 miles apart, after which Bush went north.

And we go to CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

Hi, Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Hello, this day, of course, is critical for a Bush win. As you know he's going to three different states that he narrowly lost to Gore back in 2000, some by just several thousand votes.

The first stop, of course, President Bush at Mason City, Iowa. A Bush camp has registered some 25,000 volunteers there. They specifically went to central Iowa for his 20th trip. Of course, the president certainly hoping to close the gap. He lost by just 4,000 votes there.

Second stop is Rochester, Minnesota. That is where the focus, of course, is going to be on the economy.

His third stop Eau Claire, Wisconsin. That is where, specifically, he is going to be talking about how his own economic plan is beneficial for those in the rural areas.

Now the president's strategy really is twofold. Of course, he is talking up his own economic policies, domestic policies dealing with health care and education, but he continues, as well, to slam Kerry on what he says are the inconsistencies on Iraq, a weakness in the war on terror.

And today he used a new example. He used an example of the Jordanian militant, al Zarqawi. He is believed to be behind the beheadings in Iraq. He says this is simply another example of how his opponent Kerry has a fundamental misunderstanding in the war on terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Just the other day Zarqawi publicly announced his sworn allegiance to Osama bin Laden. If Zarqawi and his associates were not busy fighting American forces in Iraq, does Senator Kerry think he would be leading a productive and peaceful life? Of course not. And that's why Iraq is no diversion, but a central commitment in the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And also the president continues to hit back at Kerry when he's challenging him on some of the issues that seem to be resonating with the voters. That is the shortage of the flu vaccine, the future of Social Security as well, as this debate over the possibility of a wartime draft -- Tony.

HARRIS: Suzanne Malveaux, live from the White House. Suzanne, thank you.

PHILLIPS: Religion and the race for the White House. Should the two be tied together? We're going to talk about it straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

And from winning hearts and minds and to just winning a little trust. The new tactics for survival in Iraq.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Well, the Constitution says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Indeed, one of the founding principles of the United States was to establish separation between church and state.

But there is no law governing the separation of church and church members over political issues.

CNN's Tom Foreman on the conflict between John Kerry and the Catholic Church.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest attack on how John Kerry practices Catholicism is coming from an anti- abortion activist in Los Angeles who wants the senator excommunicated for supporting abortion rights.

MARC BALESTRIERI, CANON LAWYER: Senator Kerry, like any other pro-choice Catholic politician, has a right choose to be Catholic or not, but if he does choose to be Catholic, he cannot support publicly abortion.

FOREMAN: Kerry, who is called devoutly Catholic by friends, may be drawing attacks because he is being more public with his faith.

Early in his campaign he rarely mentioned God.

KERRY: I am a Catholic.

FOREMAN: Now he often explains how his Catholicism will fit into his presidency.

KERRY: It's an article of faith for me. It's not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

FOREMAN: But Kerry has been under fire for some Catholics for months.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Kerry, are you against the teachings of the Catholic church?

FOREMAN: Over the summer, 16 bishops suggested any elected Catholic leader who supports abortion rights should not take communion.

FATHER WILLIAM MAESTRI, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW ORLEANS: Simply because you are an elected official you do not have a pass on the fundamental obligation that you have to protect innocent human life.

FOREMAN (on camera): Catholics, however, disagree with those bishops about three to one, and they have demonstrated that in poll after poll.

(voice-over) They have overwhelmingly said that Catholic voters have no obligation to back anti-abortion candidates, that the church's position will make no difference in how they vote, and that Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should still get communion.

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: We're talking about less than a handful of bishops that have said that John Kerry can't go to communion in their diocese. The real headlines should be 180 bishops do not say John Kerry can't go to communion in their diocese.

JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no article of my faith that would in any way inhibit.

FOREMAN: Forty-four years ago the nation's only Catholic president, John Kennedy, had to persuade voters his faith would not dictate his policies. Now John Kerry must deal with a vocal minority in his own church that says defend the faith to the letter or get out.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Quickly now. Live pictures out of Rochester, Minnesota. President Bush, of course, on the campaign trail, this event focusing on the economy, rallying up votes in a state, of course, dominated by Al Gore back in 2000.

We're going to monitor what he has to say and bring you portions of that later on. We're listening to it.

Meanwhile, we're talking about religion and politics. Catholics aren't the only religious denomination getting involved in pulpit politics this year. Some churches are telling their congregations that they will, quote, "Go to hell if they don't vote for Bush."

And "The New York Times" reported that the Republican National Committee actually mailed flyers to voters in two states suggesting liberals want to ban the Bible. Talk about a hot-button issue.

But we want to explore pulpit politics further and whether fear is being used to exploit people's beliefs and even gather votes.

We've got two guests with us today. From the First Baptist Church of Washington, D.C., Reverend Jim Green Somerville, and from Atlanta's Emery University, theology Professor Dr. Joseph Brown.

Great to have you both.

REV. JIM GREEN, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, looking -- looking back a bit and I'm talking a very long time. If you were to look at Jefferson and Adams we came across this quote actually from a Congregationalist clergyman, saying that it is "that our churches may become temples of reason, the Bible cast into a bonfire, our children chanting mockeries against God." This was stated if Jefferson won the election.

So pulpit politics is not you -- or is not new, right, Jim?

GREEN: Pulpit politics have been going on a long time and it seems to be going to more this year than in my recent memory. PHILLIPS: What do you think, Mike? Is it going on now more than ever before?

PROF. MICHAEL JOSEPH BROWN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Think in some ways, I mean, we have a rise of fundamentalism in the last century in this country. People have been afraid of what religion might do if they were cast out of the public realm.

This seems to be extremely contentious, though. I mean, it's often kind of strange to me just how religion is coming up in this current political debate.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the fear factor here. Looking back at the first quote about some of the congregations being told they're going to go to hell if they don't vote for Bush.

Jim, what do you think? Would you preach in front of your congregation who you thought would be the next president? Would you encourage your congregation to vote for a certain candidate?

GREEN: I certainly encourage my congregation to vote. But I'm not going to tell them who to vote for. Good pastors just don't do that.

PHILLIPS: Mike, what about you? You pastored for five years?

BROWN: yes. We're people of faith and I think that our religious conviction dos have something to do with our political lives.

I don't think I would tell people exactly who to vote for, but I do think that we would need to talk about our core convictions as Christians, what it is we believe is right and how we should act on that. And that helps us draw some clear lines.

I think that sometimes, though, those lines get blurred in the current political debate and people get, you know, polarized around -- around certain issues, which seems kind of odd to me.

PHILLIPS: "The New York Times" reported the RNC, you know, mailed these flyers to certain states, suggesting that liberals want to ban the Bible. When you -- when you look at what's taking place here throughout this election, Jim, do you see an exploitation of religion going on?

GREEN: I think it is often used to create just the kind of climate you're talking about, when people are afraid and they are voting for someone or something because of their fear.

I've seen this sort of thing take place in the Southern Baptist Convention. Politics, the politics of that denomination over the last 25 years and it's the same sort of thing.

They were saying us to then that the liberals want to destroy the Bible. They want to tear pages out of it. They don't believe all of it, forcing a vote for the other candidate as president of the denomination.

So this sounds so much like what I've heard in my own denomination in past years, and it is just playing to the fear.

PHILLIPS: Mike...

GREEN: It's not true, of course. It's not true.

PHILLIPS: Mike, religion is such a personal thing. Do you think that -- that exploiting religion in a political manner, if you believe that's what's taking place, would offend people to where they wouldn't even want to come out and vote?

BROWN: Well, I mean, religion is a personal thing, but it also is a social thing. And I don't think we need to separate that too much. I think sometimes we overemphasize and people who have been called liberal have been overemphasizing, I guess, in some ways the personal links to religion.

It is a corporate -- it is a corporate phenomenon.

Will it keep people from voting? I don't -- I don't think so. I think that what -- what it -- what it has done is energized certain bases, particularly conservatives have been doing very well at getting out the vote for things that they're fearful of, same-sex marriage, you know, the Bible.

I hope we don't -- liberals don't take pages out of the Bible. I teach the New Testament, so it would really -- it would put me out of a job. But I do think that that fear mongering is going on. It's going on in our churches; it's going on in our academic institutions. We as a country are becoming increasingly polarized in the last 20 years around issues such as religion.

PHILLIPS: Well, how important do you think it is to have a moral president? I mean, if we really get down and dirty here, no pun intended, you can trace liars and cheaters way back when. And these presidents have still remained very popular.

What do you think, Jim? Is it really as important as some people say?

GREEN: I think it's very important to have a moral president. But sometimes we get confused about this and say we have to elect a Christian president to run our Christian nation.

And I just think the truth is that John Kerry and George Bush both are human beings. If either of them is elected, they will make some good decisions and some bad decisions. I hope more good ones than bad ones. And I would hope they make their decisions on the basis of their moral convictions.

But the truth is whoever we vote for on November 2 is going to be a sinner. That's how we have to remember this, and so we can't assume that we'll vote for one Christian candidate or one that is un- Christian. Both of these are men who are going to try to do the best job they can and to be moral people.

I really -- I dislike it that George W. Bush is being presented as the moral candidate, and so many Christians are being told that if they don't vote for Bush they are voting for someone who is immoral.

PHILLIPS: Mike -- for the sake of fairness, I'm sorry. Jim, I hate to cut you off.

GREEN: OK.

PHILLIPS: But real quickly because we've got to go. The last election 62 percent -- 62 percent of regular churchgoers voted for Bush. Mike, quickly, do you think that the key to this election is getting those voters back out there?

BROWN: Yes. I think we -- you know, I would like to have a moral president. I think that, actually in truth our most moral president has been Jimmy Carter, whose presidency we thought has failed. I don't like people who talk morality but do something else.

PHILLIPS: Gentlemen, thanks for your time today.

GREEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next, on LIVE FROM, the hunt for Osama bin Laden, a hot political issue. But how hot are troops on his trail? An update from the Pentagon.

Later on LIVE FROM, comedian George Carlin, colorful, controversial and calling it like he sees it. His take on politics and pop culture in the LIVE FROM interview.

And tomorrow...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The innovator of soul, Ray Charles!

PHILLIPS: A stand-up comic gets serious to play a music legend. Jamie Foxx joins us to talk about what it was like to meet and portray legendary Ray Charles.

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PHILLIPS: Well, calling all die-hard U2 fans, forget the line at the record store and don't wait to download. There's another way to get your hands on U2's upcoming album, and Rhonda Schaffler, she's all over it.

Big U2 fan, huh, Rhonda?

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