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On Thursday, Many Banks Will Start Processing Checks Electronically; How the Flu Vaccine Shortage Likely Started

Aired October 26, 2004 - 13:32   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's what's happening now in the news.
After more than five months, the Scott Peterson double murder case finally winding down. Peterson defense lawyers rested all within the past hour. Prosecutor will reportedly call eight rebuttal witnesses tomorrow. Closing arguments are set to begin on Monday.

A new, chilling warning today. A masked gunman appears on a video statement, saying a planned U.S.-led offensive in Falluja in Iraq will lead to counterstrikes against U.S., Iraqi, and multi- national targets. The speaker, wearing an Iraqi military uniform from the Saddam Hussein era, threatens the use of weapons and military tactics not seen before.

Interim leader Hamid Karzai has won 55 percent of the vote in Afghanistan's first Democratic election. Ballots still trickling in from the October 9th voting, but most have been counted. Officials say they should have a final tally later today or tomorrow, but results won't be final until a probe of voting irregularities is complete.

A funeral today for 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove in East Bridgewater, Massachusetts. The college student died last week after being hit in the eye by a pepper-filled pellet fired by Boston Police. it happened as police tried to control raucous Red Sox fans celebrating the pennant-clinching win over the Yankees. "The Boston Herald" reporting officers involved in Snelgrove's death have been distraught ever since.

Well, this week will bring an end to a time-honored American tradition -- the check float. It's about to go the way of the eight- track, TV rabbit ears, and the typewriter, for that matter. Starting on Thursday, if you write a check, you better have the money in the bank to back it up, because it could clear your account in just a matter of minutes instead of days.

Are you listening to this? The reason -- a new law is kicking into action. Joining me now to talk about it in our New York Bureau is Julia Boorstin with "Fortune" magazine. Julia, good to have you with us.

JULIA BOORSTIN, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good to be here, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about this shrinking float. First of all, time is compressing very much. It's going to happen fairly quickly, too. Tell us what's going to happen.

BOORSTIN: Well, starting on Thursday, this new act will come into effect, which means that many banks, but not all of them, will start processing checks electronically. Which means, up until now, every check has been physically mailed, stuck on a plane, and shipped across the country before it has been processed. Which means, when you write a check, it's often three or four days before that money is actually taken out of your bank account.

But now that this can be done electronically, this is intended so that checks can be processed in as little as one day, which means if you write a check, you'd better have that money in your bank account, otherwise you could be facing a $35 fee.

Now, don't panic, because it's not going to happen overnight. It will be a matter of time for all these banks to actually put this processing information in -- to actually input the ability to actually do this. But better watch out, because it will happen eventually.

O'BRIEN: Well, and I guess -- as you look at this and you think about the notion of, you know, flying little pieces of paper all across the country in our electronic age, it's quite an anachronism, isn't it?

BOORSTIN: Yeah, it does make sense to move things electronically. And because so many Americans write checks, and so many more Americans write checks than Europeans do, it does make sense to move this all into digital information.

O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things that's in this legislation -- this law now -- is that banks can destroy those checks. You don't get that canceled check back. Of course, a lot of statements already coming from banks don't include them anymore. Is that a big deal? Is that going to hurt you if the tax man comes calling and wants an audit?

BOORSTIN: It won't really hurt you. And already, I don't get my original checks back. I get a little digital image of what the front of my check looks like, what the back of my check looks like. What's going to happen now, though, is that if you need to show the IRS the checks you've written, you can actually show them those digital images. And those digital images will act as the check and be accepted as a valid check, even if your original check has been destroyed.

O'BRIEN: So, those digitized substitute checks, as far as the IRS or accountants or whatever, they're just as good?

BOORSTIN: That's right. And that's what this law on Thursday means. They can destroy your original checks, because if they've got a digital version, it counts.

O'BRIEN: Well, now, I hate to bury the lead in all this, but we sort of have. Because the real kicker in all of this is deposits and the hold on deposits really aren't going to move any faster, are they? BOORSTIN: Well, banks are still aloud to keep their deposit period. Many banks have a five-day deposit period before they'll actually shift that money that you've stuck in a check into your bank account into your account itself. But it does mean that the processing time will be faster.

So, banks can have their hold period, but the time surrounding the hold period will probably be squeezed.

O'BRIEN: All right. So, the banks get the float now, is what happens essentially, right?

BOORSTIN: That's right. It's not only going to help the banks, because they'll get your money faster, but banks will also save about $2 billion in procession fees. They're not going to need as many people to actually be juggling these physical checks, and that's going to save them a ton of cash.

O'BRIEN: But is it going to save consumers anything, really? I mean, will these savings be passed along?

BOORSTIN: They will eventually. But at first, it's really going to cost consumers a pretty penny. It's been estimated by the Consumers Union that, in the first year that this law is in effect, that it can cost consumers up to $2 billion in canceled check fees. Because if every time you bounce a check, it costs $35, it's going to cost you a lot.

Now, eventually people will adjust and learn not to float their check, but it will cost consumers a lot at first.

O'BRIEN: And final thought here -- if you're relying on the float, is that good money management?

BOORSTIN: Probably not a good idea. A lot of people who live paycheck to paycheck can't help but write a check hoping that the check that they're going to be cashing in two days will already be in their bank account by then. But it's not a good idea to write a check if you don't have that money in the bank account.

And now, this law will really force people to make sure they've got the cash on hand before they go off writing checks.

O'BRIEN: All right. Julia Boorstin with "Fortune" magazine, appreciate your advice as always. Thanks for dropping by.

BOORSTIN: Thanks, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about the flu now.

The flu season, as it gets officially underway -- believe it or not, it wasn't officially underway until now. Of course, there's that whole vaccine shortage we've been talking about for a long time now. We hear about the long lines, the lotteries. There's a black market for stolen vaccine -- psst, you want to buy some hot vaccine. It's all led to a rash of finger-pointing. Imagine that! Or should we say needle-pointing in this case?

In any case, Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain what's going on and how this whole thing got fumbled so badly this go-round.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It seems like it came out of the blue -- all of a sudden earlier this month there was this announcement that the flu shot supply had been cut nearly in half. But many people say there have been indications over the years that something like this was about to happen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Many people saw these signs coming. The question is: Was anyone listening? For years, experts have been saying...

DR. JERRY AVORN, AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": The FDA should have known that this was coming.

COHEN: In 2001, the General Accounting Office warned about the fragility of the flu vaccine production system. Last year, the National Academy of Sciences said there were early warning signs of problems.

The Bush administration says they heard the warnings, but there was a limited amount they could do.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: It's virtually impossible to correct it overnight.

This was an accident that was waiting to happen for literally decades.

COHEN: The administration says its strategy has been to try to persuade more pharmaceutical companies to make vaccines to increase the supply. But critics point out that, at the beginning of Bush's presidency, there were four companies supplying flu shots. This year, with the vaccines from Chiron no longer available, it's down to one.

Critics add Bush should have had a plan B, such as having the government make the vaccine.

AVORN: We say this is an obligation of the entire government to make sure that the American people have roads, defense, and perhaps we need to add vaccines to that list.

COHEN: Federal health officials call that strategy unworkable, saying it would be inefficient to have the government make vaccines. In the presidential debate earlier this month, President Bush offered his explanation for the vaccine shortage.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued and so, therefore, they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine.

COHEN: President Bush signed into law Friday a tax bill that included a provision that would limit the liability of vaccine-makers from excessive lawsuits. But expert panels in the last few years have found that liability really hasn't been the issue. Manufacturers have backed away from making flu vaccines simply because it isn't profitable.

In fact, the man who for a decade headed the vaccine program at the Centers for Disease Control says fear of lawsuits was never a big issue.

DR. WALT ORENSTEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I have not seen liability as a major problem with the flu supply to date.

COHEN: There have been many signs that there would, some day, be lines. What's left for debate is whether the lines could have been reduced or avoided.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: All right, at the risk of sounding like a raging socialist here, perhaps, given the fact there are all these problems, there isn't a profit motive for the private sector to step in, is this one area where maybe the government should produce the vaccines?

COHEN: Right. There are some people who say, absolutely, yes, it's time for the government -- in the same way that the government makes highways and provides our national defense, why not have them make the vaccine?

Other people say, oh no, we don't want the government involved in our health care at all, thank you very much. We don't want them making vaccines.

Now there is another alternative that some people have mentioned which is to say to pharmaceutical companies, look, we want you to make X number of vaccines and if there's some left at the end of the year, which often there are, we -- the government will buy them from you so that you won't lose any money. You will have a guaranteed market. We will buy them from you.

But then there's always the possibility at the end of the year, you have all these leftover, useless vaccines, they're not good for the next year, the government then spends millions to buy useless vaccines. What's the headline there? The government looks pretty stupid.

O'BRIEN: Well, but the government does that with farmers and a lot of crops, so maybe that's something...

COHEN: That's true. And they get grief for that, too. So they're going to be criticized no matter what.

Let me guess, if I'm walking down the street and somebody goes, psst, I have got some vaccine for you, that's bad. I probably shouldn't...

COHEN: Just say no. O'BRIEN: Just say no to that. But there are obviously other ways which might come across, perhaps ill-begotten vaccine. How do you protect yourself?

COHEN: Well, you want to protect yourself, first of all, because this vaccine needs to be refrigerated. And there have been vaccine that have been stolen from clinics in various parts of the country. And if people who stole them didn't refrigerate them afterwards, you could get sick from that vaccine. So you don't want it.

So do not buy a vaccine that is sold over the Internet, that would be a good first step. Another step is don't buy a vaccine that costs more than, say, about $30. If someone wants more than $30 for a shot, there is a good chance that is a hot vaccine, and I mean hot in both senses of the word.

O'BRIEN: In both senses quite literally. All right, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks for dropping by, as always, appreciate it.

To the Moon, Alice. Sexy Saturn's mysterious moon, Titan. And with the help of NASA, a look at today's mission is on tap, later on LIVE FROM. We'll call it the "Saturn Seconds" maybe?

Anyway, also ahead, President Bush's head, and John Kerry's. They go head to head in a Halloween sales race. Will the better mask win? There's Nixon, Clinton, they're all in there.

And speaking of heads, if you're heading to lunch, how about a sampling of these busts of the candidates, rendered in delicious, low fat humus? LIVE FROM gets out the pita and olives in just a few. It's not a ho-humus show, folks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: NASA's Cassini spacecraft is busy snapping pictures like an enthusiastic tourist, as we speak. The object of its fancy, the second largest moon in our solar system and the only satellite with its own atmosphere. That atmosphere making a little bit hard for scientists to solve the riddle of Titan. But they are determined to succeed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Shrouded by thick haze and deep mystery, the largest moon of Saturn, Titan, may soon reveal some big secrets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this will be the closest, by far, that any spacecraft has ever flown by this body. And this is a unique body in the entire solar system in terms of its having an atmosphere, and in terms of it having this mask, this shield around it, that keeps us from seeing it.

O'BRIEN: For the Cassini spacecraft, it is the first of 45 planned close encounters with Titan. This time, skirting the moon by just 745 miles, or 1200 kilometers, 300 times closer than the fly-by that yielded this picture in July. Scientists are still debating whether they can actually see the surface here.

CANDICE HANSEN, CASSINI SCIENTIST: I think we were expecting for things to be easier. We were expecting to just immediately have great images of the surface. The surprise was that it's really quite challenging to sort out what is surface and what is haze.

O'BRIEN: The Cassini team, based at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, is using different filters this time, and taking pictures when the sun angle is just right. Even on its way to the flyby, they hit paydirt. Scientists believe they have spotted a continent, which they're calling Xanadu. But would it really be that idyllic if you were there?

HANSEN: Well, it's -- for one thing it's going to be very cold. I'd wear my very warmest boots. I expect it would come across as a very cold, blustery place, but yet with this sort of eerie beauty of Saturn in the sky. I mean, Saturn, with its rings, and such a beautiful planet anyway, filling your sky.

O'BRIEN: Cassini has already sent back some spectacular images of the solar system's second-largest planet. It will use infrared, ultraviolet and radar sensors as it focuses on Titan. And later this year, it will send a probe to the surface.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Titan, it's going to be exciting no matter how it turns out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Those pictures will start coming in while you're sleeping tonight. We'll watch them very carefully. We'll share them with you tomorrow.

Now if this isn't the video of the day -- well, we don't know how to top it. The presidential candidates honored today in our nation's capital. LIVE FROM agrees that you should never underestimate the power of humus, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: You know, in some primitive cultures, eating your opponent makes you stronger and braver. And -- well, it's better than the alternative.

Here in America in 2004, we're a little more sophisticated than that, or so we like to think. For example, when it comes to eating adversaries, we like them all -- and a few slices of pita, or maybe a stick of celery.

Check out this edible art -- busts of President Bush and Senator Kerry modeled out of a delightful slab of humus ready for the dipping. Sculptor Rich Varano usually works with sand, but it's not very tasty. Today, he used about 300 pounds of humus to whip up these beauties for D.C.'s Kosherfest. Nice work.

Who is that masked man? With Halloween and the presidential election just two days apart, we sent CNN's Jeanne Moos out to unmask the connection between the holiday and Election Day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Why just vote for one of them when you can actually be one of them? That devil Bush or that scary Kerry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kerry's got a great face for a mask, you know, because he's a little like -- well, like Lurch.

MOOS: The question at buycostumes.com is which candidate's mask is ahead? Bush has been leading, and they say that over the past six presidential elections, the candidate with the best-selling mask has ended up winning the real race.

But here at Halloween Adventure in New York...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The more unpopular you are, the more the mask sell.

MOOS: New York mask buyers tend to lampoon the president. They even improvise, adding a Pinocchio nose. And then there was the Pennsylvania bank robber who wore a Bush mask.

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": You know, it wasn't actually George Bush, because apparently the guy had an exit strategy to get out of the bank.

MOOS: The Bush bank robber got away with the cash like a scene out of "Point Break."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Break away! Keep your hand where I can see them.

PATRICK SWAYZE, ACTOR: We are the ex-presidents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not a crook.

MOOS: Richard Nixon's mask has legs, so does Bill Clinton's.

(on camera): What is with the wig?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First black president.

MOOS: Oh, look at Arnold. Wow.

(voice-over): We had to go to a store called Abracadabra to find Colin Powell and Condi Rice. New this year -- Al Sharpton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something called up for 300 Al Sharpton yesterday.

MOOS (on camera): Why would they want 300 Al Sharptons?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. We were trying to figure it out. MOOS (voice-over): The Bush mask left behind by the Pennsylvania robber was made by Cesar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a French company. It's called the Cesar...

MOOS (on camera): There's some irony there. French company that's making the Bush mask?

(voice-over): Both the Kerry mask...

(on camera): Who am I?

(voice-over): ... and the Bush mask...

(on camera): Now who am I? Who am I?

(voice-over): ... were equally effective at scaring kids. And while you can buy a Laura Bush mask, we couldn't find a Teresa Heinz Kerry one.

After the Bush/Gore standoff last election, they came out with a two-faced mask. But loser beware, Al Gore is on sale and gathering dust.

As we lurch toward Election Day, the Bush mask is ahead by a nose, a long one.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. Coming up in our second hour of LIVE FROM, with the chief justice's health an issue, we'll take a look behind the closed doors of the Supreme Court. LIVE FROM's hour of power begins after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired October 26, 2004 - 13:32   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's what's happening now in the news.
After more than five months, the Scott Peterson double murder case finally winding down. Peterson defense lawyers rested all within the past hour. Prosecutor will reportedly call eight rebuttal witnesses tomorrow. Closing arguments are set to begin on Monday.

A new, chilling warning today. A masked gunman appears on a video statement, saying a planned U.S.-led offensive in Falluja in Iraq will lead to counterstrikes against U.S., Iraqi, and multi- national targets. The speaker, wearing an Iraqi military uniform from the Saddam Hussein era, threatens the use of weapons and military tactics not seen before.

Interim leader Hamid Karzai has won 55 percent of the vote in Afghanistan's first Democratic election. Ballots still trickling in from the October 9th voting, but most have been counted. Officials say they should have a final tally later today or tomorrow, but results won't be final until a probe of voting irregularities is complete.

A funeral today for 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove in East Bridgewater, Massachusetts. The college student died last week after being hit in the eye by a pepper-filled pellet fired by Boston Police. it happened as police tried to control raucous Red Sox fans celebrating the pennant-clinching win over the Yankees. "The Boston Herald" reporting officers involved in Snelgrove's death have been distraught ever since.

Well, this week will bring an end to a time-honored American tradition -- the check float. It's about to go the way of the eight- track, TV rabbit ears, and the typewriter, for that matter. Starting on Thursday, if you write a check, you better have the money in the bank to back it up, because it could clear your account in just a matter of minutes instead of days.

Are you listening to this? The reason -- a new law is kicking into action. Joining me now to talk about it in our New York Bureau is Julia Boorstin with "Fortune" magazine. Julia, good to have you with us.

JULIA BOORSTIN, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good to be here, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about this shrinking float. First of all, time is compressing very much. It's going to happen fairly quickly, too. Tell us what's going to happen.

BOORSTIN: Well, starting on Thursday, this new act will come into effect, which means that many banks, but not all of them, will start processing checks electronically. Which means, up until now, every check has been physically mailed, stuck on a plane, and shipped across the country before it has been processed. Which means, when you write a check, it's often three or four days before that money is actually taken out of your bank account.

But now that this can be done electronically, this is intended so that checks can be processed in as little as one day, which means if you write a check, you'd better have that money in your bank account, otherwise you could be facing a $35 fee.

Now, don't panic, because it's not going to happen overnight. It will be a matter of time for all these banks to actually put this processing information in -- to actually input the ability to actually do this. But better watch out, because it will happen eventually.

O'BRIEN: Well, and I guess -- as you look at this and you think about the notion of, you know, flying little pieces of paper all across the country in our electronic age, it's quite an anachronism, isn't it?

BOORSTIN: Yeah, it does make sense to move things electronically. And because so many Americans write checks, and so many more Americans write checks than Europeans do, it does make sense to move this all into digital information.

O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things that's in this legislation -- this law now -- is that banks can destroy those checks. You don't get that canceled check back. Of course, a lot of statements already coming from banks don't include them anymore. Is that a big deal? Is that going to hurt you if the tax man comes calling and wants an audit?

BOORSTIN: It won't really hurt you. And already, I don't get my original checks back. I get a little digital image of what the front of my check looks like, what the back of my check looks like. What's going to happen now, though, is that if you need to show the IRS the checks you've written, you can actually show them those digital images. And those digital images will act as the check and be accepted as a valid check, even if your original check has been destroyed.

O'BRIEN: So, those digitized substitute checks, as far as the IRS or accountants or whatever, they're just as good?

BOORSTIN: That's right. And that's what this law on Thursday means. They can destroy your original checks, because if they've got a digital version, it counts.

O'BRIEN: Well, now, I hate to bury the lead in all this, but we sort of have. Because the real kicker in all of this is deposits and the hold on deposits really aren't going to move any faster, are they? BOORSTIN: Well, banks are still aloud to keep their deposit period. Many banks have a five-day deposit period before they'll actually shift that money that you've stuck in a check into your bank account into your account itself. But it does mean that the processing time will be faster.

So, banks can have their hold period, but the time surrounding the hold period will probably be squeezed.

O'BRIEN: All right. So, the banks get the float now, is what happens essentially, right?

BOORSTIN: That's right. It's not only going to help the banks, because they'll get your money faster, but banks will also save about $2 billion in procession fees. They're not going to need as many people to actually be juggling these physical checks, and that's going to save them a ton of cash.

O'BRIEN: But is it going to save consumers anything, really? I mean, will these savings be passed along?

BOORSTIN: They will eventually. But at first, it's really going to cost consumers a pretty penny. It's been estimated by the Consumers Union that, in the first year that this law is in effect, that it can cost consumers up to $2 billion in canceled check fees. Because if every time you bounce a check, it costs $35, it's going to cost you a lot.

Now, eventually people will adjust and learn not to float their check, but it will cost consumers a lot at first.

O'BRIEN: And final thought here -- if you're relying on the float, is that good money management?

BOORSTIN: Probably not a good idea. A lot of people who live paycheck to paycheck can't help but write a check hoping that the check that they're going to be cashing in two days will already be in their bank account by then. But it's not a good idea to write a check if you don't have that money in the bank account.

And now, this law will really force people to make sure they've got the cash on hand before they go off writing checks.

O'BRIEN: All right. Julia Boorstin with "Fortune" magazine, appreciate your advice as always. Thanks for dropping by.

BOORSTIN: Thanks, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about the flu now.

The flu season, as it gets officially underway -- believe it or not, it wasn't officially underway until now. Of course, there's that whole vaccine shortage we've been talking about for a long time now. We hear about the long lines, the lotteries. There's a black market for stolen vaccine -- psst, you want to buy some hot vaccine. It's all led to a rash of finger-pointing. Imagine that! Or should we say needle-pointing in this case?

In any case, Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain what's going on and how this whole thing got fumbled so badly this go-round.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It seems like it came out of the blue -- all of a sudden earlier this month there was this announcement that the flu shot supply had been cut nearly in half. But many people say there have been indications over the years that something like this was about to happen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Many people saw these signs coming. The question is: Was anyone listening? For years, experts have been saying...

DR. JERRY AVORN, AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": The FDA should have known that this was coming.

COHEN: In 2001, the General Accounting Office warned about the fragility of the flu vaccine production system. Last year, the National Academy of Sciences said there were early warning signs of problems.

The Bush administration says they heard the warnings, but there was a limited amount they could do.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: It's virtually impossible to correct it overnight.

This was an accident that was waiting to happen for literally decades.

COHEN: The administration says its strategy has been to try to persuade more pharmaceutical companies to make vaccines to increase the supply. But critics point out that, at the beginning of Bush's presidency, there were four companies supplying flu shots. This year, with the vaccines from Chiron no longer available, it's down to one.

Critics add Bush should have had a plan B, such as having the government make the vaccine.

AVORN: We say this is an obligation of the entire government to make sure that the American people have roads, defense, and perhaps we need to add vaccines to that list.

COHEN: Federal health officials call that strategy unworkable, saying it would be inefficient to have the government make vaccines. In the presidential debate earlier this month, President Bush offered his explanation for the vaccine shortage.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued and so, therefore, they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine.

COHEN: President Bush signed into law Friday a tax bill that included a provision that would limit the liability of vaccine-makers from excessive lawsuits. But expert panels in the last few years have found that liability really hasn't been the issue. Manufacturers have backed away from making flu vaccines simply because it isn't profitable.

In fact, the man who for a decade headed the vaccine program at the Centers for Disease Control says fear of lawsuits was never a big issue.

DR. WALT ORENSTEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I have not seen liability as a major problem with the flu supply to date.

COHEN: There have been many signs that there would, some day, be lines. What's left for debate is whether the lines could have been reduced or avoided.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: All right, at the risk of sounding like a raging socialist here, perhaps, given the fact there are all these problems, there isn't a profit motive for the private sector to step in, is this one area where maybe the government should produce the vaccines?

COHEN: Right. There are some people who say, absolutely, yes, it's time for the government -- in the same way that the government makes highways and provides our national defense, why not have them make the vaccine?

Other people say, oh no, we don't want the government involved in our health care at all, thank you very much. We don't want them making vaccines.

Now there is another alternative that some people have mentioned which is to say to pharmaceutical companies, look, we want you to make X number of vaccines and if there's some left at the end of the year, which often there are, we -- the government will buy them from you so that you won't lose any money. You will have a guaranteed market. We will buy them from you.

But then there's always the possibility at the end of the year, you have all these leftover, useless vaccines, they're not good for the next year, the government then spends millions to buy useless vaccines. What's the headline there? The government looks pretty stupid.

O'BRIEN: Well, but the government does that with farmers and a lot of crops, so maybe that's something...

COHEN: That's true. And they get grief for that, too. So they're going to be criticized no matter what.

Let me guess, if I'm walking down the street and somebody goes, psst, I have got some vaccine for you, that's bad. I probably shouldn't...

COHEN: Just say no. O'BRIEN: Just say no to that. But there are obviously other ways which might come across, perhaps ill-begotten vaccine. How do you protect yourself?

COHEN: Well, you want to protect yourself, first of all, because this vaccine needs to be refrigerated. And there have been vaccine that have been stolen from clinics in various parts of the country. And if people who stole them didn't refrigerate them afterwards, you could get sick from that vaccine. So you don't want it.

So do not buy a vaccine that is sold over the Internet, that would be a good first step. Another step is don't buy a vaccine that costs more than, say, about $30. If someone wants more than $30 for a shot, there is a good chance that is a hot vaccine, and I mean hot in both senses of the word.

O'BRIEN: In both senses quite literally. All right, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks for dropping by, as always, appreciate it.

To the Moon, Alice. Sexy Saturn's mysterious moon, Titan. And with the help of NASA, a look at today's mission is on tap, later on LIVE FROM. We'll call it the "Saturn Seconds" maybe?

Anyway, also ahead, President Bush's head, and John Kerry's. They go head to head in a Halloween sales race. Will the better mask win? There's Nixon, Clinton, they're all in there.

And speaking of heads, if you're heading to lunch, how about a sampling of these busts of the candidates, rendered in delicious, low fat humus? LIVE FROM gets out the pita and olives in just a few. It's not a ho-humus show, folks.

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O'BRIEN: NASA's Cassini spacecraft is busy snapping pictures like an enthusiastic tourist, as we speak. The object of its fancy, the second largest moon in our solar system and the only satellite with its own atmosphere. That atmosphere making a little bit hard for scientists to solve the riddle of Titan. But they are determined to succeed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Shrouded by thick haze and deep mystery, the largest moon of Saturn, Titan, may soon reveal some big secrets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this will be the closest, by far, that any spacecraft has ever flown by this body. And this is a unique body in the entire solar system in terms of its having an atmosphere, and in terms of it having this mask, this shield around it, that keeps us from seeing it.

O'BRIEN: For the Cassini spacecraft, it is the first of 45 planned close encounters with Titan. This time, skirting the moon by just 745 miles, or 1200 kilometers, 300 times closer than the fly-by that yielded this picture in July. Scientists are still debating whether they can actually see the surface here.

CANDICE HANSEN, CASSINI SCIENTIST: I think we were expecting for things to be easier. We were expecting to just immediately have great images of the surface. The surprise was that it's really quite challenging to sort out what is surface and what is haze.

O'BRIEN: The Cassini team, based at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, is using different filters this time, and taking pictures when the sun angle is just right. Even on its way to the flyby, they hit paydirt. Scientists believe they have spotted a continent, which they're calling Xanadu. But would it really be that idyllic if you were there?

HANSEN: Well, it's -- for one thing it's going to be very cold. I'd wear my very warmest boots. I expect it would come across as a very cold, blustery place, but yet with this sort of eerie beauty of Saturn in the sky. I mean, Saturn, with its rings, and such a beautiful planet anyway, filling your sky.

O'BRIEN: Cassini has already sent back some spectacular images of the solar system's second-largest planet. It will use infrared, ultraviolet and radar sensors as it focuses on Titan. And later this year, it will send a probe to the surface.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Titan, it's going to be exciting no matter how it turns out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Those pictures will start coming in while you're sleeping tonight. We'll watch them very carefully. We'll share them with you tomorrow.

Now if this isn't the video of the day -- well, we don't know how to top it. The presidential candidates honored today in our nation's capital. LIVE FROM agrees that you should never underestimate the power of humus, after this.

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O'BRIEN: You know, in some primitive cultures, eating your opponent makes you stronger and braver. And -- well, it's better than the alternative.

Here in America in 2004, we're a little more sophisticated than that, or so we like to think. For example, when it comes to eating adversaries, we like them all -- and a few slices of pita, or maybe a stick of celery.

Check out this edible art -- busts of President Bush and Senator Kerry modeled out of a delightful slab of humus ready for the dipping. Sculptor Rich Varano usually works with sand, but it's not very tasty. Today, he used about 300 pounds of humus to whip up these beauties for D.C.'s Kosherfest. Nice work.

Who is that masked man? With Halloween and the presidential election just two days apart, we sent CNN's Jeanne Moos out to unmask the connection between the holiday and Election Day.

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JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Why just vote for one of them when you can actually be one of them? That devil Bush or that scary Kerry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kerry's got a great face for a mask, you know, because he's a little like -- well, like Lurch.

MOOS: The question at buycostumes.com is which candidate's mask is ahead? Bush has been leading, and they say that over the past six presidential elections, the candidate with the best-selling mask has ended up winning the real race.

But here at Halloween Adventure in New York...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The more unpopular you are, the more the mask sell.

MOOS: New York mask buyers tend to lampoon the president. They even improvise, adding a Pinocchio nose. And then there was the Pennsylvania bank robber who wore a Bush mask.

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": You know, it wasn't actually George Bush, because apparently the guy had an exit strategy to get out of the bank.

MOOS: The Bush bank robber got away with the cash like a scene out of "Point Break."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Break away! Keep your hand where I can see them.

PATRICK SWAYZE, ACTOR: We are the ex-presidents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not a crook.

MOOS: Richard Nixon's mask has legs, so does Bill Clinton's.

(on camera): What is with the wig?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First black president.

MOOS: Oh, look at Arnold. Wow.

(voice-over): We had to go to a store called Abracadabra to find Colin Powell and Condi Rice. New this year -- Al Sharpton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something called up for 300 Al Sharpton yesterday.

MOOS (on camera): Why would they want 300 Al Sharptons?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. We were trying to figure it out. MOOS (voice-over): The Bush mask left behind by the Pennsylvania robber was made by Cesar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a French company. It's called the Cesar...

MOOS (on camera): There's some irony there. French company that's making the Bush mask?

(voice-over): Both the Kerry mask...

(on camera): Who am I?

(voice-over): ... and the Bush mask...

(on camera): Now who am I? Who am I?

(voice-over): ... were equally effective at scaring kids. And while you can buy a Laura Bush mask, we couldn't find a Teresa Heinz Kerry one.

After the Bush/Gore standoff last election, they came out with a two-faced mask. But loser beware, Al Gore is on sale and gathering dust.

As we lurch toward Election Day, the Bush mask is ahead by a nose, a long one.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. Coming up in our second hour of LIVE FROM, with the chief justice's health an issue, we'll take a look behind the closed doors of the Supreme Court. LIVE FROM's hour of power begins after a short break.

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