Return to Transcripts main page
Live From...
Attack Launched on Falluja
Aired November 08, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The fight for Falluja, Operation Phantom Fury underway. Any moment now, a live military briefing from Baghdad on the progress of the attack.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thousands of U.S. and Iraqi troops unleashed on insurgents. We have reporters embedded with the forces. And we will hear from them this hour.
PHILLIPS: Also live this hour, New Jersey Governor James McGreevey, out of the closet and saying farewell to his state after a gay affair prompted him to resign.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
Threatened for months, brewing for weeks, imminent for days, now it is under way. The Pentagon calls it Phantom Fury, a shock and awe, Army and Marine, U.S. and Iraqi campaign to retake Falluja.
About 7:00 p.m. local time, 11:00 a.m. Eastern, thousands of ground troops poured across a so-called line of departure and stormed into two northern neighborhoods. They were preceded by around-the- clock air strikes, mortar assaults, and the capture of two key bridges and a hospital.
A U.S. battalion commander says -- tells CNN the strategy could not by simpler. He told us and we quote him, "We're going to start at one end of the city and not stop until we get to the other side."
CNN's Karl Penhaul has been embedded with the Marines as Phantom Fury materialized. He calls in every chance he gets. Let's hear from him now -- Karl.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Miles.
Right now, we're unable to beam live pictures, because it seems that the satellite telephone signal has been jammed. There are commanders here saying that's just one of the precautions they're taking, because insurgents inside, they believe, use cell phones to communicate, but also it can trigger homemade explosives, so that's one of the reasons for jamming.
Now, when Operation Phantom Fury ground assault got underway, that was preceded by some heavy artillery bombardment and also an aerial and mortar bombardment. And then, as Marines moved to the -- within the northern limits of the city, intense firefights broke out. Tracer fire was crisscrossing the sky. There were explosions every second across parts of the city.
Talking here to some U.S. commanders, however, they do say that most of those explosions were caused by U.S. forces, either by attacks on the ground moving ahead of the infantry or by airplanes dropping bombs. In some cases, they said carpet bombs had been dropped, but more important, they say that a 2,000-pound bomb was dropped in the northwestern sector of the city.
As far as part of the northeastern neighborhoods of Falluja seem to be on fire, and there were times there when the skies were filled with red tracer fire. Even though at the height of the battle, we were standing about two kilometers back from the northern edge of Falluja.
But even at that height from the battle, we could hear rounds of allied fire going up into the night sky as the Muslim chants of "God is great." We suspect that those chants were coming up from the insurgents themselves.
Also, we heard on the loudspeaker systems of the many mosques inside Falluja a chant going up from those mosques. Again, we suspect a call to arms and chants rousing fighters on the battleground against the Marines as they advanced.
We do understand that the Marines may now have gained a foothold inside of Falluja. At what cost, though? So far, no formal casualty totals have been given to us, but we have heard from one commander tracking this battle that there may at this point be three U.S. Marine casualties. He said those are wounded. He says that also possibly one Iraqi soldier is also wounded, but that is just one part of the battle that he is tracking at a difficult stage to confirm (ph) any casualty figures across the board -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Karl, hearing those -- those battle cries from the insurgents, as well as hearing those calls from the mosques to put down the U.S. forces has got to be a chilling thing.
Do you have the sense that beyond that sort of thing there is much coordination? Is the military assuming there's a lot of coordination between the insurgents?
PENHAUL: That's very difficult to estimate and calculate from here.
Indeed, we do know that in the past, there's been a number of diverging factions inside of Falluja. First of all, those insurgents who were formerly loyal to Saddam Hussein. Other insurgents, fighters who are described as Islamic radicals. And the third main group, which is said to be foreign fighters, are some of those led by the al Qaeda affiliate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
That said, we have heard over the last few weeks that there may have been a leadership conference between those insurgent groups at the aim of coordinating the defense of Falluja, but at this stage it's difficult to say what kinds of communications they may have.
We have heard from military intelligence analysts they have used a system of raising flags on poles and also letting pigeons fly from rooftops as a way of communicating signals from one side of the city to another.
But because this grand assault has come at night, those methods of communication would be very difficult to make function. And also with the jamming of cell phone and satellite phone communication, that may make it very difficult for insurgent leaders between them to communicate inside.
That said, U.S. military intelligence tell us that the insurgents are operating in generally small groups, sometimes 15 men, sometimes as few three or four in the group. Those are trained independently of the main command and control center.
But because of the strength of the U.S. advance, it has been the aim all along to put overwhelming numbers of boots into Falluja and with that to suppress any possibility of coordination between the individual insurgent cells -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Karl Penhaul, embedded with U.S. Marines, thanks -- Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Now we want to take you straight to Baghdad where General George Casey, the commander of the multinational force west, is giving a briefing. Let's listen in.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, COMMANDER: ... in that the Iraqi people and the armed forces of more than 30 freedom-loving nations are clearly up to. Thank you.
As I said, I'll be happy to take your questions. I think you understand that we just kicked off the operation, and so I won't talk about the future operations, and I'll be very conscious of that, but I'll do my best to answer questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead. Start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General, Charlie Arlingers (ph) of Reuters, can you hear me? I'd like to ask if you can give us just a few details on this. Is there a name for this operation?
And numbers have been bandied around, 10,000, 15,000. Could you tell us how many U.S. troops and Iraqi troops are involved? Whether other troops are involved?
And how long do you expect this will take, reasonably? Thank you.
CASEY: Charlie, the name of the operation is an Arabic name, it's al Faja, and it's the Iraqi word for "dawn." The Iraqi prime minister suggested this -- selected this for obvious reasons. Your numbers, I don't want to talk specifics about numbers, Charlie. Your numbers are in the right ballpark. And I don't want to give too many specifics about the -- about the size of the force or the expected duration of the operation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that about 15,000? Would you say is that in the ballpark, the total?
CASEY: I think -- What did you say? Ten to 15,000?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, 15,000.
CASEY: You're in the ballpark, Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And are there more American troops than Iraqi troops involved, sir?
CASEY: There are, Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General, this is Bob Burns.
PHILLIPS: Once again, we are listening into the radio transmission there out of Baghdad as General George Casey, the commander of the multinational force west there in Baghdad, as this operation is going down in Falluja. Troops from Marines, Army and Iraqi forces joining together.
We'll continue to monitor that for you, as there's a little give- and-take between reporters and the general on how Operation Phantom Fury takes place and what happens -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Jane Arraf is embedded with the Army side of things. You heard from Karl Penhaul just a little while ago, embedded with Marines. She joins us from somewhere in the midst of things.
Jane, what are you seeing and hearing?
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, we're in an armored personnel carrier, and the convoy is moving into the city. This is task force 22 of the 1st Infantry Division. One of their jobs was create breach parts (ph), to clear the way for Marines and other troops.
They have done that. They set off an explosive charge that detonated a string, at least five improvised explosive devices that were set as a booby-trap for forces entering the city.
There are also -- part of the city that we've seen in the northeast sector with heavy artillery fire, that part of that was burning. We're told there are not a lot of civilians in this sector, because they had been previously been told by insurgents not to enter. The insurgents have controlled this part of the city. They've been booby-trapping it, laying homemade bombs.
But we are on our way into the city, led by Iraqi intervention forces, in this case, Iraqi commandos. We're in a convoy including tanks, and we are moving further into the city -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: Jane, a little bit on the rules of engagement here. You mentioned the expectation is that there aren't a lot of civilians because of the all the warnings that have gone out. But are the troops told to presume if they see somebody on the street that it is somebody with hostile intent?
ARRAF: They are, Miles. This is a different kind of fight. In places like Najaf, the holy city of Najaf, what we were seeing were American forces essentially bending over backwards if there was -- to use the full benefit of the doubt. Unless their lives were in danger, they were very restrained in shooting. But there was the perception that they were American forces in a holy place.
There is a similar perception here, American forces in a place that is extremely important to the Sunni heartland. But here in contrast, if for instance they are taking fire from the house, they're not going to go knock on the door or even break down the door and look for the person shooting at them. They are essentially going to demolish that house.
That is what they have been told and that is what they intend to do. They intend to go into what they believe is a decisive battle inflicting what they say is violence on their enemies and mercy on the innocent -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: You've had a lot of time to talk to the people in charge there. The equation here is very difficult, because while that may serve the goal of rooting out the insurgency, the backlash potential is tremendous.
ARRAF: It is absolutely tremendous. One of the things we have to say that works in their favor is this time around there aren't going to be a lot of live Arab television networks operating from inside Falluja.
The Iraqi government has shut down one of the main networks, Al Jazeera, in part because it believes it was inflammatory during the last battles in Falluja.
There are a significant number of civilians left in the city, but it has become so dangerous. There are going to be few reports coming out of there that will really shed light on how bad exactly it is.
As for the American forces, Miles, they are taking great pains to take reporters with them, to show that when there are civilian casualties, they were, in their mind, inevitable and unavoidable.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Jane Arraf embedded with the U.S. Army in and around Falluja. Thanks much -- Kyra?
PHILLIPS: As U.S. forces prepare to join Iraqi troops in the fight for Falluja; they knew that they were heading into one of the most treacherous battles a soldier can face, the urban assault. Now just imagine going house to house in an unfamiliar town where armed insurgents will stop at nothing, including suicide attacks, to stop you.
For some insight into the type of perils and the kind of tactical preparation involved, we turn to the author of "Inside Delta Force." As one of the founding members of the elite Delta Force, Eric Haney, he's been inside missions just like this.
Also joining us, retired Brigadier General David Grange, who served for more than 30 years in places like Vietnam, Bosnia and the Middle East during the Gulf War.
And it's perfect to have you both, because you both have been on missions together.
Eric Haney, I want to start with you. And let's talk about the roles of this multinational force. You have Army, Marines, Special Operations, Iraqi forces. Let's lay out each section and their roles and their duties.
ERIC HANEY, AUTHOR, "INSIDE DELTA FORCE": Well, the mix is to maximize the abilities of each of these different portions of the force, the Marine Corps making up the bulk of the combat forces.
And the most critical job to be done initially and then to maintain throughout is how do you cordon that area off? In essence, put a fence around Falluja where the insurgents are located, so...
PHILLIPS: That's what the Marines are doing.
HANEY: ... none get in, none get out.
And then you start clearing the city. A great deal of that is going to be done by heavy fire. Just as we heard earlier reports, if you take fire from a building it's no longer just tap dance around and look in windows and that sort of thing. Just go ahead and flatten the place.
There will be some places where U.S. forces or coalition forces must enter buildings to either seek out particular individuals or to close with them and gain control, either to kill or capture them. We will probably see in most of those instances Army Special Forces will take the lead in that sort of thing.
There are also heavy support fires. We've seen that, artillery fire, indigenous mortars in the combat units, helicopter gunfire, and as we've also heard so far, use of AC-130 gunships, particularly for night operations and other Air Force assets.
PHILLIPS: All right. Now, General Grange, take into account Special Operations, the Army infantry and the Marines. Now you've got the Iraqi forces. What's the role of the Iraqi forces? Is it -- is it a major part of the combat? Or is it controlling the area once the major fight is over?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, they're going to be part of the combat going in, and they're also going to control the area. Someone has to take charge once the operation has concluded. You can't leave a vacuum after the mission's accomplished.
This mission is a destroy mission, not a defeat mission, which means that the enemy capability will be eliminated at the end of this -- end of this operation.
There's some very good Iraqi forces trained for this particular operation in Falluja. The 36th Commando, a well-trained, Special Ops Iraqi forces. And then at the infantry level for the Iraqi forces, they're trained up through the platoon level. That's about 30 to 40 troops. And the squad level, that's about eight to 10 troops, which is the size you most often need in an urban fight.
Above that, they're not trained that well at this time, but the lower unit level, they're trained quite well. And they'll go into areas where there's more densely populated pockets of civilians in Falluja.
PHILLIPS: General Grange, Sergeant Major Haney, I ask you both to stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to talk about more about the fight for Falluja right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Thousands of U.S. Marines, Army soldiers, and Iraqi troops streaming into Falluja. It started just a couple hours ago. It continues now and tonight there.
It's being dubbed Operation Phantom Fury, but not long ago, from the head of this multinational force that has gone into Falluja, Iraq calling it Operation al Faja, meaning "dawn." So, a dual-named operation here as U.S. forces and Iraqi forces side by side right now in the middle of Falluja.
We are awaiting a Pentagon briefing sometime in the next hour, sometime in the 2:00 p.m. Eastern hour with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, also Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Meyers. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as it happens. They will update us on the fight in Falluja.
Meanwhile, we're talking with Army General David Grange, also Sergeant Major Eric Haney, a former member of Delta Force. We were talking about this operation and the combination, gentlemen, of Army, Marines, Special Operations.
Eric Haney, I want to come back to you. When we were talking about the Iraqi troops involved in this mission, I remember talking to commanders there in Falluja, when there were a number of Iraqi troops that defected and that the Falluja brigade had to break up.
And in a situation like this, how do you know you can trust these Iraqi troops in such an intense environment, an intense operation, gaining so much publicity?
HANEY: Well, by working with them, and familiarity with those particular troops. But it gets down to this also. In a guerrilla environment and insurgency, the rule of thumb is 10 percent every the people you hire will be guerrillas. They're going to be actively aiding and supporting and developing intelligence and gaining intelligence from you and your forces, which is quite a challenge also for your operational security. How do you prevent the flow of information back to the guerrilla forces again?
It remains to be seen yet how that Iraqi force will perform. And ultimately, it's going to be the job of the Iraqi force to maintain order, to keep order, and to stay there after these combat operations are over.
PHILLIPS: So, you have the concern, obviously, of the Iraqi troops.
General Grange, looking at just a list of the number of threats that I got from soldiers there in Falluja over the weekend, the numbers of cars with explosives, the foreign fighters standing by, suicide bombers, bridges, railway tracks with mines, insurgent snipers, how do these troops -- obviously there's a lot of training that takes place with urban combat, but how do you know that you are ready for that? And -- and how do you go into a situation like this, knowing all these threats are there, and continuing with confidence?
GRANGE: Well, it's a leadership challenge, but most of these troops that are in this area have been vetted in some type of combat since they came into the country. So, a lot of these soldiers and Marines, this isn't the first time that they've been under fire.
But it's really a leader challenge. The sergeants and lieutenants, the captains leading the way in these types of situations. There's a lot of rehearsals, a lot of lessons learned from past combat situations to understand what type of threats they all -- they'll face.
You know, you see a lot of explosions over the broadcast the last several days. A lot of those were actual, like for instance, vehicles rigged with demolitions that were destroyed with, say, with airpower prior to coalition forces and Iraqi forces going in. They -- they knew or suspected these things to be booby-trapped, and so they were taken out ahead of time.
So, a lot of pre-attack operations have taken place before what started today.
PHILLIPS: Eric Haney, knowing your enemy. I would assume that it's helpful having Iraqi troops because they have a sense for the people, the culture. U.S. military always concerned about civilian casualties. In a situation like this, is it more difficult, less difficult working with Iraqis when it comes to knowing the enemy?
GRANGE: Well, it is an absolute imperative that you have the Iraqis there. This is their country. They're the ones who are going to have to run this thing eventually.
But they're the interpreters. They know what happens on the ground. They know the dynamics of the neighborhoods, of the tribal affiliations. They can sense things and see things that are not apparent to the American troops initially.
And all of this is going to move very rapidly. There are certain phases in this sort of operation where you move slowly. Then there are times when you have to move extremely rapidly and you have to react to what's taking place on the battleground to either gain the initiative or maintain the initiative of the fight.
PHILLIPS: Sure. And General Grange, we've talked about violence of action and keeping that momentum and being aggressive. Let's talk about who will influence the population -- and we talked about this, too, Eric Haney -- but General, let me ask you first. After this fight, who will influence the people there in Falluja?
GRANGE: Well, it will be different than the last time that Falluja was entered by coalition/Iraqi forces. I know for a fact there's a very detailed plan in place to take care of Falluja once the combat is completed, or most of the combat is completed and the enemy are destroyed. And it won't happen in a linear fashion.
In other words, reconstruction, coordination with civilians, those things will happen immediately upon -- starting today, as the first combat takes place all the way through the completion of the operation.
PHILLIPS: It's interesting that you brought that up. A note I got from a Marine there in Falluja saying $70 million in special funding ready to go to start rebuilding Falluja sitting there in place.
Eric Haney, it seems hard to believe that that could happen so quickly, but as you and the general know, you go into a situation like this, you try to get rid of the insurgency. Can you start rebuilding immediately after that? I mean, will the civilians be ready immediately after their town has basically been destroyed?
HANEY: The rebuilding is part of it, but it's only part of it. We could turn the place into Disneyland, and that would not gain the trust and the sense that this Allawi government has credibility, that in itself.
The interim government has to demonstrate that it can control the region, that it can control not just Falluja, but other parts of the Sunni Triangle, that it can bring the benefits of a decent government and that it can protect the people from the insurgents.
Now, if the people, though, still believe that the insurgents represent their interests after this is all over, it's going to be a terribly difficult situation. The government must demonstrate that it's credible and it can influence the course of events in Iraq.
PHILLIPS: Sergeant Major Eric Haney, General David Grange, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today.
We're going to continue, of course, to follow this story. Also, we also want to remind you we are waiting for a briefing from the Pentagon. General Richard Meyers, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld set to take the podium to update us on this operation going on in Falluja, al Faja, the dawn, Operation Phantom Fury still in force. We're going to follow it right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our program, live pictures now from Trent, where we are expecting -- Trenton, New Jersey, in just a few moments to hear from outgoing Governor James McGreevey, who announced three months ago, stunning the nation, that he's gay and resigning. He'll give a farewell address, and we will bring it to you live. Should happen any minute now.
Now, news across America for you.
Some welcome news at the pump. Gasoline prices have fallen nearly three cents a gallon in the past couple of weeks. That's according to the Lundberg Survey. The average price for a gallon of self serve is $2.01 now. A drop in the price of crude oil is being credited for easing America's gas pains, if you will.
Cost of buying Babe Ruth's Boston Red Sox contract in 1919, $100,000. Current eBay bid for said contract, more than $1 million. By the way, all the proceeds of this going to charity. As for the long suffering fans of the Red Sox, seeing the curse of the Bambino finally broken this year, well, priceless.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 8, 2004 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The fight for Falluja, Operation Phantom Fury underway. Any moment now, a live military briefing from Baghdad on the progress of the attack.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thousands of U.S. and Iraqi troops unleashed on insurgents. We have reporters embedded with the forces. And we will hear from them this hour.
PHILLIPS: Also live this hour, New Jersey Governor James McGreevey, out of the closet and saying farewell to his state after a gay affair prompted him to resign.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
Threatened for months, brewing for weeks, imminent for days, now it is under way. The Pentagon calls it Phantom Fury, a shock and awe, Army and Marine, U.S. and Iraqi campaign to retake Falluja.
About 7:00 p.m. local time, 11:00 a.m. Eastern, thousands of ground troops poured across a so-called line of departure and stormed into two northern neighborhoods. They were preceded by around-the- clock air strikes, mortar assaults, and the capture of two key bridges and a hospital.
A U.S. battalion commander says -- tells CNN the strategy could not by simpler. He told us and we quote him, "We're going to start at one end of the city and not stop until we get to the other side."
CNN's Karl Penhaul has been embedded with the Marines as Phantom Fury materialized. He calls in every chance he gets. Let's hear from him now -- Karl.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Miles.
Right now, we're unable to beam live pictures, because it seems that the satellite telephone signal has been jammed. There are commanders here saying that's just one of the precautions they're taking, because insurgents inside, they believe, use cell phones to communicate, but also it can trigger homemade explosives, so that's one of the reasons for jamming.
Now, when Operation Phantom Fury ground assault got underway, that was preceded by some heavy artillery bombardment and also an aerial and mortar bombardment. And then, as Marines moved to the -- within the northern limits of the city, intense firefights broke out. Tracer fire was crisscrossing the sky. There were explosions every second across parts of the city.
Talking here to some U.S. commanders, however, they do say that most of those explosions were caused by U.S. forces, either by attacks on the ground moving ahead of the infantry or by airplanes dropping bombs. In some cases, they said carpet bombs had been dropped, but more important, they say that a 2,000-pound bomb was dropped in the northwestern sector of the city.
As far as part of the northeastern neighborhoods of Falluja seem to be on fire, and there were times there when the skies were filled with red tracer fire. Even though at the height of the battle, we were standing about two kilometers back from the northern edge of Falluja.
But even at that height from the battle, we could hear rounds of allied fire going up into the night sky as the Muslim chants of "God is great." We suspect that those chants were coming up from the insurgents themselves.
Also, we heard on the loudspeaker systems of the many mosques inside Falluja a chant going up from those mosques. Again, we suspect a call to arms and chants rousing fighters on the battleground against the Marines as they advanced.
We do understand that the Marines may now have gained a foothold inside of Falluja. At what cost, though? So far, no formal casualty totals have been given to us, but we have heard from one commander tracking this battle that there may at this point be three U.S. Marine casualties. He said those are wounded. He says that also possibly one Iraqi soldier is also wounded, but that is just one part of the battle that he is tracking at a difficult stage to confirm (ph) any casualty figures across the board -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Karl, hearing those -- those battle cries from the insurgents, as well as hearing those calls from the mosques to put down the U.S. forces has got to be a chilling thing.
Do you have the sense that beyond that sort of thing there is much coordination? Is the military assuming there's a lot of coordination between the insurgents?
PENHAUL: That's very difficult to estimate and calculate from here.
Indeed, we do know that in the past, there's been a number of diverging factions inside of Falluja. First of all, those insurgents who were formerly loyal to Saddam Hussein. Other insurgents, fighters who are described as Islamic radicals. And the third main group, which is said to be foreign fighters, are some of those led by the al Qaeda affiliate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
That said, we have heard over the last few weeks that there may have been a leadership conference between those insurgent groups at the aim of coordinating the defense of Falluja, but at this stage it's difficult to say what kinds of communications they may have.
We have heard from military intelligence analysts they have used a system of raising flags on poles and also letting pigeons fly from rooftops as a way of communicating signals from one side of the city to another.
But because this grand assault has come at night, those methods of communication would be very difficult to make function. And also with the jamming of cell phone and satellite phone communication, that may make it very difficult for insurgent leaders between them to communicate inside.
That said, U.S. military intelligence tell us that the insurgents are operating in generally small groups, sometimes 15 men, sometimes as few three or four in the group. Those are trained independently of the main command and control center.
But because of the strength of the U.S. advance, it has been the aim all along to put overwhelming numbers of boots into Falluja and with that to suppress any possibility of coordination between the individual insurgent cells -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Karl Penhaul, embedded with U.S. Marines, thanks -- Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Now we want to take you straight to Baghdad where General George Casey, the commander of the multinational force west, is giving a briefing. Let's listen in.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, COMMANDER: ... in that the Iraqi people and the armed forces of more than 30 freedom-loving nations are clearly up to. Thank you.
As I said, I'll be happy to take your questions. I think you understand that we just kicked off the operation, and so I won't talk about the future operations, and I'll be very conscious of that, but I'll do my best to answer questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead. Start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General, Charlie Arlingers (ph) of Reuters, can you hear me? I'd like to ask if you can give us just a few details on this. Is there a name for this operation?
And numbers have been bandied around, 10,000, 15,000. Could you tell us how many U.S. troops and Iraqi troops are involved? Whether other troops are involved?
And how long do you expect this will take, reasonably? Thank you.
CASEY: Charlie, the name of the operation is an Arabic name, it's al Faja, and it's the Iraqi word for "dawn." The Iraqi prime minister suggested this -- selected this for obvious reasons. Your numbers, I don't want to talk specifics about numbers, Charlie. Your numbers are in the right ballpark. And I don't want to give too many specifics about the -- about the size of the force or the expected duration of the operation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that about 15,000? Would you say is that in the ballpark, the total?
CASEY: I think -- What did you say? Ten to 15,000?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, 15,000.
CASEY: You're in the ballpark, Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And are there more American troops than Iraqi troops involved, sir?
CASEY: There are, Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General, this is Bob Burns.
PHILLIPS: Once again, we are listening into the radio transmission there out of Baghdad as General George Casey, the commander of the multinational force west there in Baghdad, as this operation is going down in Falluja. Troops from Marines, Army and Iraqi forces joining together.
We'll continue to monitor that for you, as there's a little give- and-take between reporters and the general on how Operation Phantom Fury takes place and what happens -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Jane Arraf is embedded with the Army side of things. You heard from Karl Penhaul just a little while ago, embedded with Marines. She joins us from somewhere in the midst of things.
Jane, what are you seeing and hearing?
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, we're in an armored personnel carrier, and the convoy is moving into the city. This is task force 22 of the 1st Infantry Division. One of their jobs was create breach parts (ph), to clear the way for Marines and other troops.
They have done that. They set off an explosive charge that detonated a string, at least five improvised explosive devices that were set as a booby-trap for forces entering the city.
There are also -- part of the city that we've seen in the northeast sector with heavy artillery fire, that part of that was burning. We're told there are not a lot of civilians in this sector, because they had been previously been told by insurgents not to enter. The insurgents have controlled this part of the city. They've been booby-trapping it, laying homemade bombs.
But we are on our way into the city, led by Iraqi intervention forces, in this case, Iraqi commandos. We're in a convoy including tanks, and we are moving further into the city -- Miles?
O'BRIEN: Jane, a little bit on the rules of engagement here. You mentioned the expectation is that there aren't a lot of civilians because of the all the warnings that have gone out. But are the troops told to presume if they see somebody on the street that it is somebody with hostile intent?
ARRAF: They are, Miles. This is a different kind of fight. In places like Najaf, the holy city of Najaf, what we were seeing were American forces essentially bending over backwards if there was -- to use the full benefit of the doubt. Unless their lives were in danger, they were very restrained in shooting. But there was the perception that they were American forces in a holy place.
There is a similar perception here, American forces in a place that is extremely important to the Sunni heartland. But here in contrast, if for instance they are taking fire from the house, they're not going to go knock on the door or even break down the door and look for the person shooting at them. They are essentially going to demolish that house.
That is what they have been told and that is what they intend to do. They intend to go into what they believe is a decisive battle inflicting what they say is violence on their enemies and mercy on the innocent -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: You've had a lot of time to talk to the people in charge there. The equation here is very difficult, because while that may serve the goal of rooting out the insurgency, the backlash potential is tremendous.
ARRAF: It is absolutely tremendous. One of the things we have to say that works in their favor is this time around there aren't going to be a lot of live Arab television networks operating from inside Falluja.
The Iraqi government has shut down one of the main networks, Al Jazeera, in part because it believes it was inflammatory during the last battles in Falluja.
There are a significant number of civilians left in the city, but it has become so dangerous. There are going to be few reports coming out of there that will really shed light on how bad exactly it is.
As for the American forces, Miles, they are taking great pains to take reporters with them, to show that when there are civilian casualties, they were, in their mind, inevitable and unavoidable.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Jane Arraf embedded with the U.S. Army in and around Falluja. Thanks much -- Kyra?
PHILLIPS: As U.S. forces prepare to join Iraqi troops in the fight for Falluja; they knew that they were heading into one of the most treacherous battles a soldier can face, the urban assault. Now just imagine going house to house in an unfamiliar town where armed insurgents will stop at nothing, including suicide attacks, to stop you.
For some insight into the type of perils and the kind of tactical preparation involved, we turn to the author of "Inside Delta Force." As one of the founding members of the elite Delta Force, Eric Haney, he's been inside missions just like this.
Also joining us, retired Brigadier General David Grange, who served for more than 30 years in places like Vietnam, Bosnia and the Middle East during the Gulf War.
And it's perfect to have you both, because you both have been on missions together.
Eric Haney, I want to start with you. And let's talk about the roles of this multinational force. You have Army, Marines, Special Operations, Iraqi forces. Let's lay out each section and their roles and their duties.
ERIC HANEY, AUTHOR, "INSIDE DELTA FORCE": Well, the mix is to maximize the abilities of each of these different portions of the force, the Marine Corps making up the bulk of the combat forces.
And the most critical job to be done initially and then to maintain throughout is how do you cordon that area off? In essence, put a fence around Falluja where the insurgents are located, so...
PHILLIPS: That's what the Marines are doing.
HANEY: ... none get in, none get out.
And then you start clearing the city. A great deal of that is going to be done by heavy fire. Just as we heard earlier reports, if you take fire from a building it's no longer just tap dance around and look in windows and that sort of thing. Just go ahead and flatten the place.
There will be some places where U.S. forces or coalition forces must enter buildings to either seek out particular individuals or to close with them and gain control, either to kill or capture them. We will probably see in most of those instances Army Special Forces will take the lead in that sort of thing.
There are also heavy support fires. We've seen that, artillery fire, indigenous mortars in the combat units, helicopter gunfire, and as we've also heard so far, use of AC-130 gunships, particularly for night operations and other Air Force assets.
PHILLIPS: All right. Now, General Grange, take into account Special Operations, the Army infantry and the Marines. Now you've got the Iraqi forces. What's the role of the Iraqi forces? Is it -- is it a major part of the combat? Or is it controlling the area once the major fight is over?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, they're going to be part of the combat going in, and they're also going to control the area. Someone has to take charge once the operation has concluded. You can't leave a vacuum after the mission's accomplished.
This mission is a destroy mission, not a defeat mission, which means that the enemy capability will be eliminated at the end of this -- end of this operation.
There's some very good Iraqi forces trained for this particular operation in Falluja. The 36th Commando, a well-trained, Special Ops Iraqi forces. And then at the infantry level for the Iraqi forces, they're trained up through the platoon level. That's about 30 to 40 troops. And the squad level, that's about eight to 10 troops, which is the size you most often need in an urban fight.
Above that, they're not trained that well at this time, but the lower unit level, they're trained quite well. And they'll go into areas where there's more densely populated pockets of civilians in Falluja.
PHILLIPS: General Grange, Sergeant Major Haney, I ask you both to stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to talk about more about the fight for Falluja right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Thousands of U.S. Marines, Army soldiers, and Iraqi troops streaming into Falluja. It started just a couple hours ago. It continues now and tonight there.
It's being dubbed Operation Phantom Fury, but not long ago, from the head of this multinational force that has gone into Falluja, Iraq calling it Operation al Faja, meaning "dawn." So, a dual-named operation here as U.S. forces and Iraqi forces side by side right now in the middle of Falluja.
We are awaiting a Pentagon briefing sometime in the next hour, sometime in the 2:00 p.m. Eastern hour with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, also Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Meyers. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as it happens. They will update us on the fight in Falluja.
Meanwhile, we're talking with Army General David Grange, also Sergeant Major Eric Haney, a former member of Delta Force. We were talking about this operation and the combination, gentlemen, of Army, Marines, Special Operations.
Eric Haney, I want to come back to you. When we were talking about the Iraqi troops involved in this mission, I remember talking to commanders there in Falluja, when there were a number of Iraqi troops that defected and that the Falluja brigade had to break up.
And in a situation like this, how do you know you can trust these Iraqi troops in such an intense environment, an intense operation, gaining so much publicity?
HANEY: Well, by working with them, and familiarity with those particular troops. But it gets down to this also. In a guerrilla environment and insurgency, the rule of thumb is 10 percent every the people you hire will be guerrillas. They're going to be actively aiding and supporting and developing intelligence and gaining intelligence from you and your forces, which is quite a challenge also for your operational security. How do you prevent the flow of information back to the guerrilla forces again?
It remains to be seen yet how that Iraqi force will perform. And ultimately, it's going to be the job of the Iraqi force to maintain order, to keep order, and to stay there after these combat operations are over.
PHILLIPS: So, you have the concern, obviously, of the Iraqi troops.
General Grange, looking at just a list of the number of threats that I got from soldiers there in Falluja over the weekend, the numbers of cars with explosives, the foreign fighters standing by, suicide bombers, bridges, railway tracks with mines, insurgent snipers, how do these troops -- obviously there's a lot of training that takes place with urban combat, but how do you know that you are ready for that? And -- and how do you go into a situation like this, knowing all these threats are there, and continuing with confidence?
GRANGE: Well, it's a leadership challenge, but most of these troops that are in this area have been vetted in some type of combat since they came into the country. So, a lot of these soldiers and Marines, this isn't the first time that they've been under fire.
But it's really a leader challenge. The sergeants and lieutenants, the captains leading the way in these types of situations. There's a lot of rehearsals, a lot of lessons learned from past combat situations to understand what type of threats they all -- they'll face.
You know, you see a lot of explosions over the broadcast the last several days. A lot of those were actual, like for instance, vehicles rigged with demolitions that were destroyed with, say, with airpower prior to coalition forces and Iraqi forces going in. They -- they knew or suspected these things to be booby-trapped, and so they were taken out ahead of time.
So, a lot of pre-attack operations have taken place before what started today.
PHILLIPS: Eric Haney, knowing your enemy. I would assume that it's helpful having Iraqi troops because they have a sense for the people, the culture. U.S. military always concerned about civilian casualties. In a situation like this, is it more difficult, less difficult working with Iraqis when it comes to knowing the enemy?
GRANGE: Well, it is an absolute imperative that you have the Iraqis there. This is their country. They're the ones who are going to have to run this thing eventually.
But they're the interpreters. They know what happens on the ground. They know the dynamics of the neighborhoods, of the tribal affiliations. They can sense things and see things that are not apparent to the American troops initially.
And all of this is going to move very rapidly. There are certain phases in this sort of operation where you move slowly. Then there are times when you have to move extremely rapidly and you have to react to what's taking place on the battleground to either gain the initiative or maintain the initiative of the fight.
PHILLIPS: Sure. And General Grange, we've talked about violence of action and keeping that momentum and being aggressive. Let's talk about who will influence the population -- and we talked about this, too, Eric Haney -- but General, let me ask you first. After this fight, who will influence the people there in Falluja?
GRANGE: Well, it will be different than the last time that Falluja was entered by coalition/Iraqi forces. I know for a fact there's a very detailed plan in place to take care of Falluja once the combat is completed, or most of the combat is completed and the enemy are destroyed. And it won't happen in a linear fashion.
In other words, reconstruction, coordination with civilians, those things will happen immediately upon -- starting today, as the first combat takes place all the way through the completion of the operation.
PHILLIPS: It's interesting that you brought that up. A note I got from a Marine there in Falluja saying $70 million in special funding ready to go to start rebuilding Falluja sitting there in place.
Eric Haney, it seems hard to believe that that could happen so quickly, but as you and the general know, you go into a situation like this, you try to get rid of the insurgency. Can you start rebuilding immediately after that? I mean, will the civilians be ready immediately after their town has basically been destroyed?
HANEY: The rebuilding is part of it, but it's only part of it. We could turn the place into Disneyland, and that would not gain the trust and the sense that this Allawi government has credibility, that in itself.
The interim government has to demonstrate that it can control the region, that it can control not just Falluja, but other parts of the Sunni Triangle, that it can bring the benefits of a decent government and that it can protect the people from the insurgents.
Now, if the people, though, still believe that the insurgents represent their interests after this is all over, it's going to be a terribly difficult situation. The government must demonstrate that it's credible and it can influence the course of events in Iraq.
PHILLIPS: Sergeant Major Eric Haney, General David Grange, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today.
We're going to continue, of course, to follow this story. Also, we also want to remind you we are waiting for a briefing from the Pentagon. General Richard Meyers, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld set to take the podium to update us on this operation going on in Falluja, al Faja, the dawn, Operation Phantom Fury still in force. We're going to follow it right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our program, live pictures now from Trent, where we are expecting -- Trenton, New Jersey, in just a few moments to hear from outgoing Governor James McGreevey, who announced three months ago, stunning the nation, that he's gay and resigning. He'll give a farewell address, and we will bring it to you live. Should happen any minute now.
Now, news across America for you.
Some welcome news at the pump. Gasoline prices have fallen nearly three cents a gallon in the past couple of weeks. That's according to the Lundberg Survey. The average price for a gallon of self serve is $2.01 now. A drop in the price of crude oil is being credited for easing America's gas pains, if you will.
Cost of buying Babe Ruth's Boston Red Sox contract in 1919, $100,000. Current eBay bid for said contract, more than $1 million. By the way, all the proceeds of this going to charity. As for the long suffering fans of the Red Sox, seeing the curse of the Bambino finally broken this year, well, priceless.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
