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Jury Deliberates Scott Peterson's Fate; Army Playing Catch-up to Armor Vehicles; General, Embedded Reporter Shares Insights on Armored Vehicles
Aired December 10, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: What's it going to take to protect soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan? From commanders in the field to reporters on the ground, two views this hour on the equipment the military needs to stay safe.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Is he a man who deserves to live or a monster who deserves to die? I'm Rusty Dornin in Redwood City California, where we await word on Scott Peterson's fate. More coming up.
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: A popular book sparks new questions and new controversy about the women closest to Jesus. This hour, CNN's look at the two Marys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: I'm going to get married this weekend, I guess. Yes, I'm going to get married. I'm going to get married. You talked me into it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Sibila plays matchmaker and gets the scoop on "Ocean's Twelve" with Hollywood's new Rat Pack.
HARRIS: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Tony Harris in for Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: He'd probably want to marry her, and she's taken.
And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
HARRIS: Six men, six women, two murders, one life hanging in the balance. We're waiting for the jury that convicted Scott Peterson of killing his wife and unborn son to decide whether the state of California should put him to death.
CNN's Rusty Dornin is at the Redwood City courthouse for the first full day of penalty deliberations -- Rusty.
DORNIN: Well, Tony, they've been deliberating for about three hours now. There's a very low buzz going on now, because they're certifying the record. And the last time they announced that, they also announced that there was a verdict at that same time. We're not really expecting that, but you never know.
Both side are back in the judge's chambers. And in the courtroom is the Stanislaus County district attorney, James Brazelton. That, of course, is the county where the murder was committed and where Scott Peterson is from.
Meantime, both sides gave a very dramatic presentation yesterday of Scott Peterson, what they believe, whether he should live or whether he should die.
The prosecution calling -- saying he is the worst kind of monster, that he left his -- left her family for 116 days not knowing, while his wife's body was rotting at the bottom of the ocean. He called Scott Peterson a liar and a manipulator. He said their only choice is to vote for death.
Defense attorney Mark Geragos also giving a very powerful argument, showing the questions to the jurors, their own answers where they said that a crime, no matter how horrific, they would want to know more about the man before they decided about the death penalty.
Geragos saying that Peterson was a man who deserved to live. He was a good, kind, caring man. He could do a lot of good in prison if he was sentenced to life there.
He also talked about the horrors of prison, should he begin that sentence, that he would have a cell the size of a king-size mattress, that he would always be looking over his shoulder, that he would likely be a marked man, that it would be very dangerous.
He ended up by saying that they should end the cycle of death, that it did nothing to bring back Laci Peterson and her unborn son. And not one moment would it bring solace to Laci Peterson's family if Scott Peterson was put to death. He begged them to save his life.
So here at the courthouse, a couple hundred journalists milling about, waiting for any signs that something is going on. Also court watchers also hanging out. Expecting a few hundred people to also gather here when the verdict is announced -- Tony.
HARRIS: OK. Rusty Dornin live from Redwood City, California, following the deliberations in the Peterson case. Thank you -- Kyra.
Talk about a crude welcome. The same day President Bush introduces his nominee for second term energy sectary, OPEC decides to tighten the spigot. The nominee is Sam Bodman, deputy secretary of the treasury, former deputy secretary of commerce, former engineering professor at MIT and former president of Fidelity Investments.
As for OPEC members meeting in Cairo, decided that they'd rather like oil selling for $40-some a barrel instead of $20-some. So to keep prices from sliding any further past their October peak of $55 a barrel, the oil states say they'll cut their total production by a million barrels a day. That's expected to start affecting markets around the end of February. HARRIS: The federal government says it wants Daimler Chrysler to fix 600,000 Dodge trucks because of a problem that could make the wheels come off. The trucks in question of Dakotas and Durangos from the model years 2000 through 2003.
The automaker is hinting that it considers a recall unnecessary and plans to announce its intentions next week. We spoke last hour about the potential dispute with a former federal transportation official.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICARDO MARTINEZ, FORMER DIRECTOR, NTSA: For the most part we've seen the manufacturer shift from fighting every step of the way to actually being much more proactive, because so many cars are involved now.
HARRIS: OK.
MARTINEZ: They initiate the vast majority of recalls now, because they want to get it and they want to get it early.
The problem lies, is when there's a significant engineering disagreement. I got to tell you, the NTSA engineers are very, very good. They start with a lot of complaints. But when they get this far in the case, they usually come down to something that they can find.
So really, it begins to attract media attention. It's unusual to be this far down the process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Martinez says if Daimler Chrysler does not comply voluntarily, the government has the option of making a recall mandatory.
A poll published today shows the country increasingly doubtful that Iraq will be a stable democracy. Fewer than half of Americans polled by the Associated Press now view the prospect is likely, down from 55 percent last spring.
At the same time, the poll found increased support for President Bush on Iraq, 48 percent. That's up five percent since June during the heat of the election campaign.
PHILLIPS: Now to the fallout over armor and protecting the troops. Ever since a soldier took on the secretary of defense, the Pentagon and the White House have been trying to reassure the troops and the nation that the U.S. is indeed battle ready.
Our Aaron Brown has the latest on the continuing controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AARON BROWN, HOST, "NEWSNIGHT" (voice-over): The military says it's working as hard and as fast as it can to provide the increased armor protection for the thousands and thousands of vehicles which are now in Iraq.
JAMES POOR, DEPUTY COMMANDER, ARMISTON ARMY DEPOT: Since December of last year, the collective output of the Army arsenals and depots is approximately 10,000 Humvee door kits.
BROWN: Here at the Army's Army depot Aniston, Alabama, workers are racing to supply so-called armor kits: hardened steel doors and frames for the ubiquitous Humvees.
They are fitted to the vehicles in staging areas in Kuwait and in Iraq itself, where Humvees won't be fully armored, according to the Pentagon, until March of next year.
Meanwhile, the complaints keep coming. Soldiers in the Oregon National Guard, who are in Baghdad, are telling their families that they've been forced to extraordinary lengths to beef up their Humvees and other vehicles.
REP. DARLENE HOOLEY (D), OREGON: You have members out looking and finding metal to put in the vehicles between the plywood and the sandbags. So they're out scavenging metal from any place, from heaps of old vehicles. And some of those are Russian vehicles, and some of those are Iraqi vehicles. We -- they're trying to do everything they can to make themselves safe by doing that.
BROWN: And then there is this, a plant near Phoenix called Armor Works. It also produced protection kits for about 1,200 Army vehicles this year. But these use a ceramic base, not steel. It's lighter, but it's more expensive.
And now the company is laying people off, because its contract with the military runs out in January and hasn't been renewed.
MATT SALMON, PRESIDENT, ARMOR WORKS: The steel technology, which is being employed on so many of the vehicles over there, has been around since World War II. It's time to move forward with the best technologies that we have so that we can save lives and make our equipment function properly.
It's just, you know, to me, it's a no-brainer.
BROWN: The Pentagon so far is not commenting, but it does admit that planners were not prepared for the kind of attacks that are now routine, the improvised explosive devices that kill and maim so many.
LT. GEN. H. STEPHEN BLUM, CHIEF, NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU: There was a lot of vehicles and rolling stock in Iraq and Afghanistan. And none of them had armor when we went in there. So we're playing catch- up as fast as we can.
BROWN: Small comfort perhaps for the soldiers and the Marines on duty day and night in an extraordinarily dangerous environment.
HOOLEY: We're asking these guys to put their lives on the line every single day. I mean, no matter what they're doing, the minute they go out on patrol, their lives are in danger.
BROWN: Aaron Brown, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: So how widespread is the equipment shortage? And is the Pentagon doing enough to turn things around? Our senior Baghdad correspondent, Jane Arraf, will share her thoughts in just a minute.
But first, I'm joined by retired General William "Gus" Pagonis. He spent 29 years in the Army. He was also responsible for all logistical operations during the first Gulf War. He's the author of "Moving Mountains." He talks about his experiences during that conflict.
General, good to see you.
GEN. WILLIAM PAGONIS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Good to see you.
PHILLIPS: When this all came out a couple of days ago, the commander came forward out of Kuwait and he said, "Let me put it in perspective. We've got 30,000 vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Eight thousand of those vehicles are -- do not have armor."
You know what needs armor, what doesn't need armor. Is 8,000 vehicles a lot?
PAGONIS: Well, first of all, any commander would want to have 100 percent of their vehicles with armor plating, but you don't need that. I mean, you just make sure that those vehicles that are put on the convoys or they're used for administrative purposes. And there are convoy routes that are more secure than others.
But while they're working on it, you try to adjust where your vehicles are going.
Putting armored plating on a vehicle also increases the maintenance responsibility, because the vehicles weren't designed for this heavier weight on the axels.
PHILLIPS: So it's interesting. We talk about not knowing the enemy in this war because of insurgents. How about not even knowing the battlefield when you look at IEDs? They come up everywhere. Shouldn't every vehicle have armor due to the threat and how different the threat is in this war?
PAGONIS: Yes, and I know that the Pentagon is making every effort. And Secretary Rumsfeld has given direction to make sure that everything done is done to try to protect our soldiers.
You know, we didn't have to have armored plating on any of the wheeled vehicles in the first Gulf War. Very few did, maybe the military Humvees and...
PHILLIPS: And you had 40,000 vehicles, right? You have 40,000 vehicles in the Gulf War? PAGONIS: Yes, we had 40,000 wheeled vehicles and a very small percentage of those had armor plating. Just the one that the M.P.'s were using for convoy protection.
But there's other things you do to protect the convoys. You check the routes. You have helicopter coverage. And again, everyone is working very hard, I'm sure, to correct this.
You know, it's kind of interesting the one soldier said they go out and they're scrounging the metal. We probably have the greatest -- that's one reason we have the greatest Army in the world. Nothing wrong with the troops, I think, finding scrap metal, putting it in the bottom of their cabs to protect them from land mines that go off. And that's like a temporary solution until the other, better solutions can be done.
PHILLIPS: And I think if my life were at stake every day, I'd be looking for ways to make things safer, too. It's amazing how they enterprise.
All right. You say -- let's talk about the routes and -- and the lay of the land. There should be more intel on the routes. There should be more air support.
What is more expensive? Is it more expensive to get all these vehicles with armor, or is it more expensive to bring in more air support, which, of course, means more manpower, more gas, more flight time, and intelligence? I don't know if that's more expensive or not, to have more people tracking routes. What's the higher cost?
PAGONIS: Well, first of all, to be prudent, the most prudent thing is get armor plating on as many vehicles as you can that you know are going to be used on the armor -- on the routes that are under duress or routes that have been hit.
Bringing in helicopter support is more expensive because it costs more to maintain helicopters. What you really need is a combination of everything you describe. And that's what the commander on the ground will do.
There are thousands of convoys that don't get hit. But, of course, that one that does get hit and costs the life of a soldier is what you want to prevent.
PHILLIPS: And of course, it's more expensive to repair and keep up the maintenance on armored vehicles, right?
PAGONIS: Well, whenever you have a wheeled vehicle and you add armor plating on it, you're putting stress on that would cause the maintenance requirements to go up. But that's being programmed, and they're working on it.
When a -- when a Humvee comes out of the production line, it's designed as an armored vehicle. It's much easier, and they design it more properly. The kits -- and I put on kits on wheeled vehicles myself many times -- the kits are designed to reinforce and be added onto the vehicle that you have in place.
And, of course, you just have to be careful. Because now you have this additional weight that maybe the axel wasn't designed to cover, or maybe it's not put on properly and it won't add the protection that you want.
PHILLIPS: General William "Gus" Pagonis, thanks so much for your time today, sir.
PAGONIS: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: We're going to get a first-hand perspective on all of this next from CNN's Jane Arraf. She's been embedded with the troops in Falluja for the past several weeks, and she joins us live to tell us about the Humvees that she saw in the field.
Also "Consumer Reports" now rates your medicine. They'll tell you about the best toaster and tires, and now drugs.
And "Ocean's Twelve" opens today. Our entertainment correspondent talks with the cast about the latest project and some of those that they'd like to forget.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLOONEY: There's a couple of shows I'd like to take back.
BRAD PITT, ACTOR: The one where...
CLOONEY: "Return of the Killer Tomatoes." I'd like to have it back.
PITT: The one where you're the detective by day and then you're the rock singer by night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Oh, yes. In-depth, exclusive coverage with Clooney and Pitt and the rest of the cast, ahead on LIVE FROM.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, before we went away, we were discussing Iraq and protecting American soldiers by hardening U.S. military vehicles. For her perspective we turn to now CNN's senior Baghdad correspondent, Jane Arraf. She's visiting us here in Atlanta.
A nice little break. You get to see the family for the holidays.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: Quite a switch from being in Iraq.
ARRAF: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the armored vehicle situation. Two quick questions for you. First of all, being embedded, did you -- were you in those vehicles that weren't armored? Were you with soldiers that said, "Boy, I wish these cars were armored"?
ARRAF: Yes. We've been in probably every vehicle that the Army makes over a period of months when we've been embedded with various Army units, Marine units. We have been in -- in vehicles and Humvees, particularly, that have no armor whatsoever.
In Najaf, for instance, we were in them. And the soldiers who were with us said, "It's OK. The rocket-propelled grenades will just fly right through." Which is sort of putting a happy face on things, I suppose.
But that's the thing about it. A lot them recognize there are shortages; it could be better. A lot of them sort of deal with what they have. So it was kind of extraordinary to see a public protest raised to Donald Rumsfeld.
PHILLIPS: Wow. Are there other stories out there besides lack of armor on vehicles that are not getting reported?
ARRAF: As time goes on, and particularly with troops being extended and with troops who thought they would be able to go home or thought that their service was over, being made to stay in Iraq, certainly there will be. Difficult to do, though, stories as an embedded reporter. But if they are widespread enough, they will certainly bubble up, as they did this one.
The up-armor issue has been going on for a long time. We drive around in Humvees a lot of times with the soldiers where they put sandbags in the bottom to reinforce them.
The battle has changed. There's a feeling that they didn't fully expect, for instance, the way that the car bombs, the suicide bombs, the roadside bombs have developed. And that has forced them to change not only their tactics, but forced them to realize that perhaps they need different kinds of equipment.
PHILLIPS: So do you have a gut feeling you're going to be working on another story that's going to involve the lack of resource or resources somewhere?
ARRAF: I think what overshadows a lot of this is the fact that perhaps the troops are stretched. The troops on the ground certainly feel it. They feel it when they say they don't want to go home on leave, because that would leave their buddies in a bind because there's no one to replace them.
They feel it when they are being asked to do 10 different tasks at once and asked to move around. And they do it because they are soldiers and that's their job, and they follow orders. But there is a feeling on the ground that there aren't enough troops.
PHILLIPS: Wow. It's amazing the bond among all of them, too.
Let's talk about the bomb making. This was interesting. You were telling me all the areas that you went into and how you were just amazed by all the bomb making factories in Iraq and the advancement in technology on behalf of the insurgents.
ARRAF: It's increasingly sophisticated, increasingly scary, and that is the most deadly form of attacks that they've come up with, at least the most casualties among U.S. forces and among Iraqis, as well. And it has become increasingly sophisticated.
When this insurgency first started, there were practically no bombs. There were only people shooting at U.S. forces with rocket- propelled grenades or rifles and then it gradually evolved to crude bombs, and now they're really very sophisticated. They're linked in some cases.
When we went through Falluja, there were entire buildings that were rigged to explode.
PHILLIPS: Brand new or old, like from Saddam's time?
ARRAF: No. This was completely after Saddam.
PHILLIPS: Wow.
ARRAF: These things did not exist under Saddam. This is completely after Saddam. The insurgency has come up with these frighteningly sophisticated ways to kill people.
PHILLIPS: Unbelievable. All right, I can see a big report coming there, Jane Arraf. All right, we appreciate your time with us today. And you head back after the holidays. Do you know who you'll be embedded with?
ARRAF: There are so many amazing stories out there and soldiers and Marines doing so many amazing things it's very difficult to choose. But we'd like to get back to Falluja, and we'd like to get back to Samarra. We'd like to take a look at some of the other parts of the country, as well.
PHILLIPS: We'll be waiting for those. Thanks, Jane.
ARRAF: Thanks so much.
PHILLIPS: All right.
HARRIS: The cupboard is reportedly getting bare on the International Space Station. There's no corner grocery store around.
Think the cast of "Ocean's Twelve" is tired of doing all of those interviews for their new movie? There's at least one topic that is off limits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PITT: I'm going to make it through the entire day without talking about kids.
CLOONEY: But I want to have kids.
PITT: George will be answering all those questions.
CLOONEY: I'd like to answer the questions about the children. I'm going to have...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rhonda Schaffler in New York. It's another green Christmas for St. Nick. I'll tell you why Santa may be rolling in the loot, at least theoretically. That's coming up on LIVE FROM. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: News across America now.
Environmental threat: a major fuel spill from a grounded freighter is threatening a sensitive wildlife habitat off Alaska. Heavy winds and rough seas have broken the vessel in two. It was carrying almost 450,000 gallons of heavy bunker oil.
The Coast Guard is continuing the search for six missing crewmembers who plunged into the sea Wednesday during a rescue attempt.
House arrest: Rhode island reporter Jim Taricani gets six months home confinement for defying a divulge a source. He was found guilty of defying a court order to reveal who gave him an FBI videotape that showed a city official taking a bribe.
And Aleve or Tylenol? Help is on the way. "Consumer Reports" has launched a best buy drugs web site. It rates what it says are the best medicines at the lowest prices. But drug companies advise caution, saying patients often respond differently to the same medicine.
PHILLIPS: Well, you can call it a miracle on Wall Street. Santa's stock portfolio has turned in another bell-ringing performance.
HARRIS: Santa's had a good year?
PHILLIPS: He's had a good year. That means Santa is going to be coming down your chimney.
HARRIS: With lots of goodies on the sleigh.
Hi, Rhonda.
(STOCK REPORT)
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Aired December 10, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: What's it going to take to protect soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan? From commanders in the field to reporters on the ground, two views this hour on the equipment the military needs to stay safe.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Is he a man who deserves to live or a monster who deserves to die? I'm Rusty Dornin in Redwood City California, where we await word on Scott Peterson's fate. More coming up.
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: A popular book sparks new questions and new controversy about the women closest to Jesus. This hour, CNN's look at the two Marys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: I'm going to get married this weekend, I guess. Yes, I'm going to get married. I'm going to get married. You talked me into it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Sibila plays matchmaker and gets the scoop on "Ocean's Twelve" with Hollywood's new Rat Pack.
HARRIS: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Tony Harris in for Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: He'd probably want to marry her, and she's taken.
And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
HARRIS: Six men, six women, two murders, one life hanging in the balance. We're waiting for the jury that convicted Scott Peterson of killing his wife and unborn son to decide whether the state of California should put him to death.
CNN's Rusty Dornin is at the Redwood City courthouse for the first full day of penalty deliberations -- Rusty.
DORNIN: Well, Tony, they've been deliberating for about three hours now. There's a very low buzz going on now, because they're certifying the record. And the last time they announced that, they also announced that there was a verdict at that same time. We're not really expecting that, but you never know.
Both side are back in the judge's chambers. And in the courtroom is the Stanislaus County district attorney, James Brazelton. That, of course, is the county where the murder was committed and where Scott Peterson is from.
Meantime, both sides gave a very dramatic presentation yesterday of Scott Peterson, what they believe, whether he should live or whether he should die.
The prosecution calling -- saying he is the worst kind of monster, that he left his -- left her family for 116 days not knowing, while his wife's body was rotting at the bottom of the ocean. He called Scott Peterson a liar and a manipulator. He said their only choice is to vote for death.
Defense attorney Mark Geragos also giving a very powerful argument, showing the questions to the jurors, their own answers where they said that a crime, no matter how horrific, they would want to know more about the man before they decided about the death penalty.
Geragos saying that Peterson was a man who deserved to live. He was a good, kind, caring man. He could do a lot of good in prison if he was sentenced to life there.
He also talked about the horrors of prison, should he begin that sentence, that he would have a cell the size of a king-size mattress, that he would always be looking over his shoulder, that he would likely be a marked man, that it would be very dangerous.
He ended up by saying that they should end the cycle of death, that it did nothing to bring back Laci Peterson and her unborn son. And not one moment would it bring solace to Laci Peterson's family if Scott Peterson was put to death. He begged them to save his life.
So here at the courthouse, a couple hundred journalists milling about, waiting for any signs that something is going on. Also court watchers also hanging out. Expecting a few hundred people to also gather here when the verdict is announced -- Tony.
HARRIS: OK. Rusty Dornin live from Redwood City, California, following the deliberations in the Peterson case. Thank you -- Kyra.
Talk about a crude welcome. The same day President Bush introduces his nominee for second term energy sectary, OPEC decides to tighten the spigot. The nominee is Sam Bodman, deputy secretary of the treasury, former deputy secretary of commerce, former engineering professor at MIT and former president of Fidelity Investments.
As for OPEC members meeting in Cairo, decided that they'd rather like oil selling for $40-some a barrel instead of $20-some. So to keep prices from sliding any further past their October peak of $55 a barrel, the oil states say they'll cut their total production by a million barrels a day. That's expected to start affecting markets around the end of February. HARRIS: The federal government says it wants Daimler Chrysler to fix 600,000 Dodge trucks because of a problem that could make the wheels come off. The trucks in question of Dakotas and Durangos from the model years 2000 through 2003.
The automaker is hinting that it considers a recall unnecessary and plans to announce its intentions next week. We spoke last hour about the potential dispute with a former federal transportation official.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICARDO MARTINEZ, FORMER DIRECTOR, NTSA: For the most part we've seen the manufacturer shift from fighting every step of the way to actually being much more proactive, because so many cars are involved now.
HARRIS: OK.
MARTINEZ: They initiate the vast majority of recalls now, because they want to get it and they want to get it early.
The problem lies, is when there's a significant engineering disagreement. I got to tell you, the NTSA engineers are very, very good. They start with a lot of complaints. But when they get this far in the case, they usually come down to something that they can find.
So really, it begins to attract media attention. It's unusual to be this far down the process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Martinez says if Daimler Chrysler does not comply voluntarily, the government has the option of making a recall mandatory.
A poll published today shows the country increasingly doubtful that Iraq will be a stable democracy. Fewer than half of Americans polled by the Associated Press now view the prospect is likely, down from 55 percent last spring.
At the same time, the poll found increased support for President Bush on Iraq, 48 percent. That's up five percent since June during the heat of the election campaign.
PHILLIPS: Now to the fallout over armor and protecting the troops. Ever since a soldier took on the secretary of defense, the Pentagon and the White House have been trying to reassure the troops and the nation that the U.S. is indeed battle ready.
Our Aaron Brown has the latest on the continuing controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AARON BROWN, HOST, "NEWSNIGHT" (voice-over): The military says it's working as hard and as fast as it can to provide the increased armor protection for the thousands and thousands of vehicles which are now in Iraq.
JAMES POOR, DEPUTY COMMANDER, ARMISTON ARMY DEPOT: Since December of last year, the collective output of the Army arsenals and depots is approximately 10,000 Humvee door kits.
BROWN: Here at the Army's Army depot Aniston, Alabama, workers are racing to supply so-called armor kits: hardened steel doors and frames for the ubiquitous Humvees.
They are fitted to the vehicles in staging areas in Kuwait and in Iraq itself, where Humvees won't be fully armored, according to the Pentagon, until March of next year.
Meanwhile, the complaints keep coming. Soldiers in the Oregon National Guard, who are in Baghdad, are telling their families that they've been forced to extraordinary lengths to beef up their Humvees and other vehicles.
REP. DARLENE HOOLEY (D), OREGON: You have members out looking and finding metal to put in the vehicles between the plywood and the sandbags. So they're out scavenging metal from any place, from heaps of old vehicles. And some of those are Russian vehicles, and some of those are Iraqi vehicles. We -- they're trying to do everything they can to make themselves safe by doing that.
BROWN: And then there is this, a plant near Phoenix called Armor Works. It also produced protection kits for about 1,200 Army vehicles this year. But these use a ceramic base, not steel. It's lighter, but it's more expensive.
And now the company is laying people off, because its contract with the military runs out in January and hasn't been renewed.
MATT SALMON, PRESIDENT, ARMOR WORKS: The steel technology, which is being employed on so many of the vehicles over there, has been around since World War II. It's time to move forward with the best technologies that we have so that we can save lives and make our equipment function properly.
It's just, you know, to me, it's a no-brainer.
BROWN: The Pentagon so far is not commenting, but it does admit that planners were not prepared for the kind of attacks that are now routine, the improvised explosive devices that kill and maim so many.
LT. GEN. H. STEPHEN BLUM, CHIEF, NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU: There was a lot of vehicles and rolling stock in Iraq and Afghanistan. And none of them had armor when we went in there. So we're playing catch- up as fast as we can.
BROWN: Small comfort perhaps for the soldiers and the Marines on duty day and night in an extraordinarily dangerous environment.
HOOLEY: We're asking these guys to put their lives on the line every single day. I mean, no matter what they're doing, the minute they go out on patrol, their lives are in danger.
BROWN: Aaron Brown, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: So how widespread is the equipment shortage? And is the Pentagon doing enough to turn things around? Our senior Baghdad correspondent, Jane Arraf, will share her thoughts in just a minute.
But first, I'm joined by retired General William "Gus" Pagonis. He spent 29 years in the Army. He was also responsible for all logistical operations during the first Gulf War. He's the author of "Moving Mountains." He talks about his experiences during that conflict.
General, good to see you.
GEN. WILLIAM PAGONIS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Good to see you.
PHILLIPS: When this all came out a couple of days ago, the commander came forward out of Kuwait and he said, "Let me put it in perspective. We've got 30,000 vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Eight thousand of those vehicles are -- do not have armor."
You know what needs armor, what doesn't need armor. Is 8,000 vehicles a lot?
PAGONIS: Well, first of all, any commander would want to have 100 percent of their vehicles with armor plating, but you don't need that. I mean, you just make sure that those vehicles that are put on the convoys or they're used for administrative purposes. And there are convoy routes that are more secure than others.
But while they're working on it, you try to adjust where your vehicles are going.
Putting armored plating on a vehicle also increases the maintenance responsibility, because the vehicles weren't designed for this heavier weight on the axels.
PHILLIPS: So it's interesting. We talk about not knowing the enemy in this war because of insurgents. How about not even knowing the battlefield when you look at IEDs? They come up everywhere. Shouldn't every vehicle have armor due to the threat and how different the threat is in this war?
PAGONIS: Yes, and I know that the Pentagon is making every effort. And Secretary Rumsfeld has given direction to make sure that everything done is done to try to protect our soldiers.
You know, we didn't have to have armored plating on any of the wheeled vehicles in the first Gulf War. Very few did, maybe the military Humvees and...
PHILLIPS: And you had 40,000 vehicles, right? You have 40,000 vehicles in the Gulf War? PAGONIS: Yes, we had 40,000 wheeled vehicles and a very small percentage of those had armor plating. Just the one that the M.P.'s were using for convoy protection.
But there's other things you do to protect the convoys. You check the routes. You have helicopter coverage. And again, everyone is working very hard, I'm sure, to correct this.
You know, it's kind of interesting the one soldier said they go out and they're scrounging the metal. We probably have the greatest -- that's one reason we have the greatest Army in the world. Nothing wrong with the troops, I think, finding scrap metal, putting it in the bottom of their cabs to protect them from land mines that go off. And that's like a temporary solution until the other, better solutions can be done.
PHILLIPS: And I think if my life were at stake every day, I'd be looking for ways to make things safer, too. It's amazing how they enterprise.
All right. You say -- let's talk about the routes and -- and the lay of the land. There should be more intel on the routes. There should be more air support.
What is more expensive? Is it more expensive to get all these vehicles with armor, or is it more expensive to bring in more air support, which, of course, means more manpower, more gas, more flight time, and intelligence? I don't know if that's more expensive or not, to have more people tracking routes. What's the higher cost?
PAGONIS: Well, first of all, to be prudent, the most prudent thing is get armor plating on as many vehicles as you can that you know are going to be used on the armor -- on the routes that are under duress or routes that have been hit.
Bringing in helicopter support is more expensive because it costs more to maintain helicopters. What you really need is a combination of everything you describe. And that's what the commander on the ground will do.
There are thousands of convoys that don't get hit. But, of course, that one that does get hit and costs the life of a soldier is what you want to prevent.
PHILLIPS: And of course, it's more expensive to repair and keep up the maintenance on armored vehicles, right?
PAGONIS: Well, whenever you have a wheeled vehicle and you add armor plating on it, you're putting stress on that would cause the maintenance requirements to go up. But that's being programmed, and they're working on it.
When a -- when a Humvee comes out of the production line, it's designed as an armored vehicle. It's much easier, and they design it more properly. The kits -- and I put on kits on wheeled vehicles myself many times -- the kits are designed to reinforce and be added onto the vehicle that you have in place.
And, of course, you just have to be careful. Because now you have this additional weight that maybe the axel wasn't designed to cover, or maybe it's not put on properly and it won't add the protection that you want.
PHILLIPS: General William "Gus" Pagonis, thanks so much for your time today, sir.
PAGONIS: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: We're going to get a first-hand perspective on all of this next from CNN's Jane Arraf. She's been embedded with the troops in Falluja for the past several weeks, and she joins us live to tell us about the Humvees that she saw in the field.
Also "Consumer Reports" now rates your medicine. They'll tell you about the best toaster and tires, and now drugs.
And "Ocean's Twelve" opens today. Our entertainment correspondent talks with the cast about the latest project and some of those that they'd like to forget.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLOONEY: There's a couple of shows I'd like to take back.
BRAD PITT, ACTOR: The one where...
CLOONEY: "Return of the Killer Tomatoes." I'd like to have it back.
PITT: The one where you're the detective by day and then you're the rock singer by night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Oh, yes. In-depth, exclusive coverage with Clooney and Pitt and the rest of the cast, ahead on LIVE FROM.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, before we went away, we were discussing Iraq and protecting American soldiers by hardening U.S. military vehicles. For her perspective we turn to now CNN's senior Baghdad correspondent, Jane Arraf. She's visiting us here in Atlanta.
A nice little break. You get to see the family for the holidays.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: Quite a switch from being in Iraq.
ARRAF: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the armored vehicle situation. Two quick questions for you. First of all, being embedded, did you -- were you in those vehicles that weren't armored? Were you with soldiers that said, "Boy, I wish these cars were armored"?
ARRAF: Yes. We've been in probably every vehicle that the Army makes over a period of months when we've been embedded with various Army units, Marine units. We have been in -- in vehicles and Humvees, particularly, that have no armor whatsoever.
In Najaf, for instance, we were in them. And the soldiers who were with us said, "It's OK. The rocket-propelled grenades will just fly right through." Which is sort of putting a happy face on things, I suppose.
But that's the thing about it. A lot them recognize there are shortages; it could be better. A lot of them sort of deal with what they have. So it was kind of extraordinary to see a public protest raised to Donald Rumsfeld.
PHILLIPS: Wow. Are there other stories out there besides lack of armor on vehicles that are not getting reported?
ARRAF: As time goes on, and particularly with troops being extended and with troops who thought they would be able to go home or thought that their service was over, being made to stay in Iraq, certainly there will be. Difficult to do, though, stories as an embedded reporter. But if they are widespread enough, they will certainly bubble up, as they did this one.
The up-armor issue has been going on for a long time. We drive around in Humvees a lot of times with the soldiers where they put sandbags in the bottom to reinforce them.
The battle has changed. There's a feeling that they didn't fully expect, for instance, the way that the car bombs, the suicide bombs, the roadside bombs have developed. And that has forced them to change not only their tactics, but forced them to realize that perhaps they need different kinds of equipment.
PHILLIPS: So do you have a gut feeling you're going to be working on another story that's going to involve the lack of resource or resources somewhere?
ARRAF: I think what overshadows a lot of this is the fact that perhaps the troops are stretched. The troops on the ground certainly feel it. They feel it when they say they don't want to go home on leave, because that would leave their buddies in a bind because there's no one to replace them.
They feel it when they are being asked to do 10 different tasks at once and asked to move around. And they do it because they are soldiers and that's their job, and they follow orders. But there is a feeling on the ground that there aren't enough troops.
PHILLIPS: Wow. It's amazing the bond among all of them, too.
Let's talk about the bomb making. This was interesting. You were telling me all the areas that you went into and how you were just amazed by all the bomb making factories in Iraq and the advancement in technology on behalf of the insurgents.
ARRAF: It's increasingly sophisticated, increasingly scary, and that is the most deadly form of attacks that they've come up with, at least the most casualties among U.S. forces and among Iraqis, as well. And it has become increasingly sophisticated.
When this insurgency first started, there were practically no bombs. There were only people shooting at U.S. forces with rocket- propelled grenades or rifles and then it gradually evolved to crude bombs, and now they're really very sophisticated. They're linked in some cases.
When we went through Falluja, there were entire buildings that were rigged to explode.
PHILLIPS: Brand new or old, like from Saddam's time?
ARRAF: No. This was completely after Saddam.
PHILLIPS: Wow.
ARRAF: These things did not exist under Saddam. This is completely after Saddam. The insurgency has come up with these frighteningly sophisticated ways to kill people.
PHILLIPS: Unbelievable. All right, I can see a big report coming there, Jane Arraf. All right, we appreciate your time with us today. And you head back after the holidays. Do you know who you'll be embedded with?
ARRAF: There are so many amazing stories out there and soldiers and Marines doing so many amazing things it's very difficult to choose. But we'd like to get back to Falluja, and we'd like to get back to Samarra. We'd like to take a look at some of the other parts of the country, as well.
PHILLIPS: We'll be waiting for those. Thanks, Jane.
ARRAF: Thanks so much.
PHILLIPS: All right.
HARRIS: The cupboard is reportedly getting bare on the International Space Station. There's no corner grocery store around.
Think the cast of "Ocean's Twelve" is tired of doing all of those interviews for their new movie? There's at least one topic that is off limits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PITT: I'm going to make it through the entire day without talking about kids.
CLOONEY: But I want to have kids.
PITT: George will be answering all those questions.
CLOONEY: I'd like to answer the questions about the children. I'm going to have...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RHONDA SCHAFFLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rhonda Schaffler in New York. It's another green Christmas for St. Nick. I'll tell you why Santa may be rolling in the loot, at least theoretically. That's coming up on LIVE FROM. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: News across America now.
Environmental threat: a major fuel spill from a grounded freighter is threatening a sensitive wildlife habitat off Alaska. Heavy winds and rough seas have broken the vessel in two. It was carrying almost 450,000 gallons of heavy bunker oil.
The Coast Guard is continuing the search for six missing crewmembers who plunged into the sea Wednesday during a rescue attempt.
House arrest: Rhode island reporter Jim Taricani gets six months home confinement for defying a divulge a source. He was found guilty of defying a court order to reveal who gave him an FBI videotape that showed a city official taking a bribe.
And Aleve or Tylenol? Help is on the way. "Consumer Reports" has launched a best buy drugs web site. It rates what it says are the best medicines at the lowest prices. But drug companies advise caution, saying patients often respond differently to the same medicine.
PHILLIPS: Well, you can call it a miracle on Wall Street. Santa's stock portfolio has turned in another bell-ringing performance.
HARRIS: Santa's had a good year?
PHILLIPS: He's had a good year. That means Santa is going to be coming down your chimney.
HARRIS: With lots of goodies on the sleigh.
Hi, Rhonda.
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