Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

A Look at Iraq's Insurgency; Saddam's Lawyer: He's Still President of Iraq

Aired December 16, 2004 - 14:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news, a new audiotape believed to be from Osama bin Laden. In it, he refers to the December 6 attack on the U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
CIA officials say there's a, quote, "high degree of confidence" that the voice is that of al Qaeda leader and the latest evidence that he is still alive and hiding.

President Bush talks Social Security at a Washington economic conference. He plans on introducing changes which will enable younger workers to shift some of their payroll taxes into personal savings account.

The president also told the meeting that the nation's economy is growing, but he called for fiscal restraint.

Marion Jones fights back. The Olympic track star has filed a $25 million defamation suit against the owner of a drug laboratory. Victor Conte says that he had supplied Jones with banned performance enhancing drugs. Jones denies it. The allegations have put her career and her five medals from the 2000 games in jeopardy.

In the past 18 months or so, we've been a new kind of war. We've seen it emerge in Iraq. And that's claimed hundreds of American lives.

Up first this hour, a rare and provocative look inside the insurgency. CNN's Karl Penhaul set out to find out who the insurgents are, where they are coming from and what they want. Here's his report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The religious chants of Arab volunteers blend with the thud of combat boots. Iraqi TV broadcast these images days before the U.S. forces invaded. It looked like a propaganda ploy to raise support across the Muslim world.

But one of Saddam Hussein's former generals familiar with the training program says those international recruits and Ba'ath Party loyalists are the backbone of today's guerrilla war.

MOHAMMED AL-ASKARY, FORMER IRAQI ARMY GENERAL (through translator): Without a doubt, those were the people who are coming to kill or be killed. That's a philosophy for their lives. PENHAUL: The former commando says 7,000 volunteers trained at Narhawan (ph) military base and other camps near Baghdad in the months before the U.S. invasion.

Most were military novices. But General al-Askary says there was a combat-ready hard core from Afghanistan and North Africa, including Taliban and fighters affiliated with al Qaeda.

Iraqi state TV transmitted messages of defiance from Syrians, Egyptians, Moroccans and Libyans training in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This aggression is not only against Iraq; it's against all Arab nations. But God willing it, we will fight this U.S. and British aggression.

PENHAUL: Other pre-invasion images showed Ba'ath Party activists training in small unit tactics. These are Kirkuk branch members.

General al-Askary says guerrilla-style training began on Saddam's orders, but he left it to his deputy, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri and intelligence agents to map out the long-term strategy.

AL-ASKARY (through translator): Saddam isn't that clever to be a long-term planner. He only cared about power, and when U.S. troops entered Iraq, that put an end to his era.

PENHAUL: Al-Douri is still on the lam. He's No. 6 on the deck of cards of the coalition's most wanted.

This letter, purporting to be from him, appeared December 6 in a London-based Arabic newspaper. It calls on former members of Saddam's security apparatus to step up the resistance.

(on camera) General Haithan is one of Saddam's (ph) leaders to one of Saddam's former military intelligence officers in a Baghdad safe house. He says he's now an insurgent general, a story our sources confirmed.

"GENERAL HAITHAN", RESISTANCE COMMANDER (through translator): We loved Saddam Hussein and now he's in the prison of the occupiers. We can't see him so we don't fight on his orders. We fight to defend our self-respect, our pride and against the occupier, America.

PENHAUL (voice-over): He explains how he laid low for six months after the invasion before contacting old comrades and taking up arms. He said the pillars of the resistance are ex-army officers and Ba'ath Party cadres, known as the United Ba'ath Party.

He confirmed volunteers from neighboring countries are part of that force, united by a goal of Arab nationalism.

Yet, 20 months after the invasion, U.S. commanders seem to know few specifics about the enemy they're facing.

Brigadier General Erwin Lessel is the multinational forces' deputy operations chief. BRIG. GEN. ERWIN LESSEL, DEPUTY OPERATIONS CHIEF: Well, it's still a very difficult situation to get your arms around completely and to fully understand. Very secretive. They use operational security very well.

PENHAUL: Numerous guerrilla factions have surfaced in propaganda videos, including Mohammed's Army, the 1920s Brigade, al Qaeda in Iraq, the Islamic Army. The religious and political affiliations are not always clear.

Evidenced today, the vast majority of them are Iraqis. Just 2.5 percent of those killed or captured last month in Falluja were foreign fighters, according to U.S. military figures.

LESSEL: Well, determining the actual number of insurgents in the country has been a terribly challenging question. It's one that we can't completely get our arms around. It's one that there are a variety of estimates, anywhere from, early going, from 4,000 to 6,000 and estimates as much as 8,000 to 20,000.

PENHAUL: Insurgent General Haithan opted not to cover his face, saying he was confident the U.S. military wouldn't be able to track him down. He declined to reveal the size of the resistance.

HAITHAN (through translator): It is not about the number of fighters. It is about the will power of those who fight. The enemy must leave our country, and the occupation must end. We will not stop fighting. They must be defeated.

PENHAUL: The U.S. did manage to gather some new intelligence on the insurgency during November's Falluja campaign. Coalition and Iraqi officials say some rebel strategists and financiers are based in Syria and Iran.

LESSEL: Well, we don't have evidence that I can discuss about any state-sponsored terrorist activities. The evidence that we have seen is individuals, some groups that are sponsoring the movement of individuals, the movement of weapons, the movement of finances into Iraq.

PENHAUL: Iraqi media reports suggest Mohamed Yonus al-Ahmed (ph) was recently elected new head of the Ba'ath Party's political military wing and is operating out of Syria.

But General Lessel says he has little idea how the overall leadership is structured or how it's coordinated.

LESSEL: They have a common goal in that they want to see the multinational forces leave. They want to see the Iraqi government fail. But beyond that, they're still pitted at odds against each other for the ultimate end-state.

PENHAUL: Despite differences, they're waging what expert term a classic insurgency, striking military, economic and political targets. The insurgent leader threatened resistance fighters in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East may focus more heavily on economic sabotage in the future.

HAITHAN (through translator): America is an octopus, swimming in the river of oil. Dry the river, and the octopus will die. We will dry the oil of America, and America will die and Europe with them.

PENHAUL: He denied the Ba'ath Party had control over other factions using terror tactics, such as beheadings. But said Ba'athists had launched suicide attacks. Experts say resistance tactics are getting better coordinated and more sophisticated.

AL-ASKARY (through translator): The myth of American military power has evaporated. The American military is vulnerable on the ground and on the streets. However, they still retain supremacy in the air and with their artillery and missiles.

PENHAUL: That superior U.S. firepower was evident in Falluja. The close quarters urban combat looked spectacular. But in hit and run guerrilla warfare, the army that wins most battles is not ultimately guaranteed final victory.

At the head of an irregular Arab force in World War I, Lawrence of Arabia wrote, quote, "Our best line was to defend nothing. Our cards were speed and time, not hitting power," close quote.

Iraq's resistance rarely stands to fight to defend liberated zones. And while Falluja was falling, attacks spiked across the country. Ramadi, Baqubah, Mosul, Baiji, Tikrit, Samarra and Baghdad.

Many ordinary Iraqis say they see no end in sight. Their leaders are more optimistic.

GHAZI AL-YAWAH, IRAQI INTERIM PRESIDENT: We are not fighting Vietcong, which have principles and have support, popular support. We are fighting Saddam loyalists who are shielding behind beards and the name of Allah.

PENHAUL: The insurgents have presented no public political platform. Analysts say certain factions, religious extremism has little broad support.

But many Iraqis are simply tired of coalition troops on their streets or angry at what they see as the lack of cultural sensitivity. Resentment may be translating into popular support for the resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mujahideen!

PENHAUL: These girls in a makeshift refugee camp in Baghdad chant songs praising the Mujahideen. They fled their home in Falluja more than a month ago.

In the Sunni Triangle town of Bulruz (ph), this man recites a rebel poem at a rally calling for a boycott of January elections.

Efforts to build up Iraqi security forces are slow. The U.S. aim of turning over control of Baghdad to Iraqi forces by mid-2004 didn't materialize. Instead of cutting troops, Washington's bolstering levels to record highs before elections.

Still, U.S. commanders see the light ahead.

LESSEL: I don't know what the time line might be for all insurgency, for all terrorism to stop here, but certainly there is a horizon down the road. And I think getting through the elections safely and securely will take a lot of steam out of the insurgent movement.

PENHAUL: Publicly, officials reject the U.S. is bogged down in Iraq or caught in a quagmire. Privately, few U.S. field commanders would argue with Lawrence of Arabia's warning that fighting rebellion is messy and slow, like eating soup with a knife.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: He's accused of ordering the killings of thousands of Iraqis. Are Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi justice system ready for his trial? A lawyer for Saddam speaks out.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: The defense of a dictator. Saddam Hussein met with his lawyer today about his war crimes trial. It's the first time the former Iraqi leader has met with a lawyer since his capture.

Now, I spoke earlier today with Issam Ghazzawi. He's another member of Saddam's defense team. He expressed his displeasure about the trial process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISSAM GHAZZAWI, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S LAWYER: He is still the president of Iraq. Because the people in Iraq now governing, this interim government, what you call, they are puppets of the United States administration. They can't go to bathroom without execute -- taking permission from the states.

They declared many times that they want to make a trial as soon as possible. They said on the seventh month of this year, and then changed their mind to the 11th. Then they said before the end of the year. And yesterday, the prime minister said not before 2006.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, Ghazzawi also says that he doubts Saddam could also get a fair trial in Iraq.

We get more insight into the trial process now with former federal judge Stephen Orlofsky. Judge Orlofsky is with the Iraqi judicial assessment team which has been helping Iraq prepare for trial. He joins us now live from Philadelphia.

Judge, you actually went to Iraq. You got to see the courtrooms. You got to meet with a number of these individuals set to be judges, prosecutors. What do you think? How is the system looking right now?

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: Well, I think that the Iraqis are perfectly capable of presenting a case against Saddam for his crimes, his alleged crimes, and that the Iraqi special tribunal before which he will be tried is capable of handling the trial and giving him a fair trial.

PHILLIPS: Now, when I talked with one of Saddam's -- when I talked to this attorney, one of Saddam's attorneys earlier in the day, he said that -- that Saddam is innocent. He's done nothing wrong, that under the '71 constitution, that he has immunity, that he can't even be charged.

But let's put things in perspective here. Let's talk about the Iraqi special tribunal that was adopted before the handover of the new government and how Saddam can be charged and can be held accountable for the gassing of the Kurds and genocide and crimes against humanity.

ORLOFSKY: Well, first of all, this is a special tribunal, which was created to try war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. It contains -- and the process and procedures under which it will operate contain many of the same provisions which are found in the federal and state constitutions in the United States.

He's entitled to the assistance of counsel. He's entitled to a speedy trial. He's entitled to the presumption of innocence. The state, the prosecution, must prove his guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He's entitled to an adequate time to prepare his defense. And indeed, even if he is indigent, which I suspect he's not, he's entitled to have council appointed to represent him to defend him at the trial.

PHILLIPS: And let's explain to our viewers one more time this Iraqi special tribunal. It's an interesting system, how it's set up. What is taking place now? Judges in Iraq are investigating the evidence. Take it from there.

ORLOFSKY: The Iraqi judicial system is what's known as a civil law system, which is similar to the system which operates in France. In fact, much of Iraqi procedure is based on French law.

Instead of a prosecutor investigating a particular crime, an accused is brought before a judge known as an investigative -- an investigating magistrate judge, who performs many of the functions that a prosecutor and grand jury would perform in the United States.

He hears evidence from the police. He may order additional investigations. And he ultimately determines whether there is sufficient evidence of the crime of which the accused is charged to pass the case along to the tribunal for trial.

The tribunal in this case will be a panel of five judges. Under Iraqi procedure, there are no jury trials, and criminal trials are tried before judges.

For example, in the ordinary case, misdemeanors are tried before a single judge. Felonies are tried before three judges. And in this case with this tribunal, war crimes will be tried before five judges.

PHILLIPS: All right. And what's taking place right now? There isn't anything happening with Saddam besides the fact that he's met with one of his lawyers today.

But his henchmen, part of his regime, you've got Chemical Ali now that is being investigated by these judges. It looks like we're going to see a number of his regime members being investigated and going to trial before Saddam.

What is the reason for that? Is there a hope that they will flip and testify against Saddam?

ORLOFSKY: Well, I think there are probably several reasons for it. No. 1, the cases against his henchmen are probably less complicated to prove than the cases against him. There are probably fewer crimes and the evidence may be stronger.

And of course I'm sure the prosecution is hopeful that one or more of them will ultimately cooperate and testify against Saddam.

PHILLIPS: Judge Stephen Orlofsky, thank you so much for your time today. I'm curious: are you going back to Iraq?

ORLOFSKY: I haven't been asked, and I haven't volunteered.

PHILLIPS: It's a tough time to go back. I don't blame you. Well, we'll have you back definitely as the trials go forward. Sir, thank you so much for your time.

ORLOFSKY: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Fred.

WHITFIELD: Well 'tis the season to be shipping. And our Keith Oppenheim is in the middle of all the madness.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra, I'm inside UPS's main distribution center outside Chicago. And I am inside what's called the bullfrog. What is the bullfrog? I'll tell you in a live report, coming up.

WHITFIELD: And he's outspoken and often larger than life. Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban joins us to talk about the infamous basket brawl and about plans to give American veterans a courtside tribute.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange. Listen up, last-minute shoppers: the hottest gift this season is nearly sold out. I'll have that story coming up on LIVE FROM, so don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 16, 2004 - 14:07   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news, a new audiotape believed to be from Osama bin Laden. In it, he refers to the December 6 attack on the U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
CIA officials say there's a, quote, "high degree of confidence" that the voice is that of al Qaeda leader and the latest evidence that he is still alive and hiding.

President Bush talks Social Security at a Washington economic conference. He plans on introducing changes which will enable younger workers to shift some of their payroll taxes into personal savings account.

The president also told the meeting that the nation's economy is growing, but he called for fiscal restraint.

Marion Jones fights back. The Olympic track star has filed a $25 million defamation suit against the owner of a drug laboratory. Victor Conte says that he had supplied Jones with banned performance enhancing drugs. Jones denies it. The allegations have put her career and her five medals from the 2000 games in jeopardy.

In the past 18 months or so, we've been a new kind of war. We've seen it emerge in Iraq. And that's claimed hundreds of American lives.

Up first this hour, a rare and provocative look inside the insurgency. CNN's Karl Penhaul set out to find out who the insurgents are, where they are coming from and what they want. Here's his report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The religious chants of Arab volunteers blend with the thud of combat boots. Iraqi TV broadcast these images days before the U.S. forces invaded. It looked like a propaganda ploy to raise support across the Muslim world.

But one of Saddam Hussein's former generals familiar with the training program says those international recruits and Ba'ath Party loyalists are the backbone of today's guerrilla war.

MOHAMMED AL-ASKARY, FORMER IRAQI ARMY GENERAL (through translator): Without a doubt, those were the people who are coming to kill or be killed. That's a philosophy for their lives. PENHAUL: The former commando says 7,000 volunteers trained at Narhawan (ph) military base and other camps near Baghdad in the months before the U.S. invasion.

Most were military novices. But General al-Askary says there was a combat-ready hard core from Afghanistan and North Africa, including Taliban and fighters affiliated with al Qaeda.

Iraqi state TV transmitted messages of defiance from Syrians, Egyptians, Moroccans and Libyans training in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This aggression is not only against Iraq; it's against all Arab nations. But God willing it, we will fight this U.S. and British aggression.

PENHAUL: Other pre-invasion images showed Ba'ath Party activists training in small unit tactics. These are Kirkuk branch members.

General al-Askary says guerrilla-style training began on Saddam's orders, but he left it to his deputy, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri and intelligence agents to map out the long-term strategy.

AL-ASKARY (through translator): Saddam isn't that clever to be a long-term planner. He only cared about power, and when U.S. troops entered Iraq, that put an end to his era.

PENHAUL: Al-Douri is still on the lam. He's No. 6 on the deck of cards of the coalition's most wanted.

This letter, purporting to be from him, appeared December 6 in a London-based Arabic newspaper. It calls on former members of Saddam's security apparatus to step up the resistance.

(on camera) General Haithan is one of Saddam's (ph) leaders to one of Saddam's former military intelligence officers in a Baghdad safe house. He says he's now an insurgent general, a story our sources confirmed.

"GENERAL HAITHAN", RESISTANCE COMMANDER (through translator): We loved Saddam Hussein and now he's in the prison of the occupiers. We can't see him so we don't fight on his orders. We fight to defend our self-respect, our pride and against the occupier, America.

PENHAUL (voice-over): He explains how he laid low for six months after the invasion before contacting old comrades and taking up arms. He said the pillars of the resistance are ex-army officers and Ba'ath Party cadres, known as the United Ba'ath Party.

He confirmed volunteers from neighboring countries are part of that force, united by a goal of Arab nationalism.

Yet, 20 months after the invasion, U.S. commanders seem to know few specifics about the enemy they're facing.

Brigadier General Erwin Lessel is the multinational forces' deputy operations chief. BRIG. GEN. ERWIN LESSEL, DEPUTY OPERATIONS CHIEF: Well, it's still a very difficult situation to get your arms around completely and to fully understand. Very secretive. They use operational security very well.

PENHAUL: Numerous guerrilla factions have surfaced in propaganda videos, including Mohammed's Army, the 1920s Brigade, al Qaeda in Iraq, the Islamic Army. The religious and political affiliations are not always clear.

Evidenced today, the vast majority of them are Iraqis. Just 2.5 percent of those killed or captured last month in Falluja were foreign fighters, according to U.S. military figures.

LESSEL: Well, determining the actual number of insurgents in the country has been a terribly challenging question. It's one that we can't completely get our arms around. It's one that there are a variety of estimates, anywhere from, early going, from 4,000 to 6,000 and estimates as much as 8,000 to 20,000.

PENHAUL: Insurgent General Haithan opted not to cover his face, saying he was confident the U.S. military wouldn't be able to track him down. He declined to reveal the size of the resistance.

HAITHAN (through translator): It is not about the number of fighters. It is about the will power of those who fight. The enemy must leave our country, and the occupation must end. We will not stop fighting. They must be defeated.

PENHAUL: The U.S. did manage to gather some new intelligence on the insurgency during November's Falluja campaign. Coalition and Iraqi officials say some rebel strategists and financiers are based in Syria and Iran.

LESSEL: Well, we don't have evidence that I can discuss about any state-sponsored terrorist activities. The evidence that we have seen is individuals, some groups that are sponsoring the movement of individuals, the movement of weapons, the movement of finances into Iraq.

PENHAUL: Iraqi media reports suggest Mohamed Yonus al-Ahmed (ph) was recently elected new head of the Ba'ath Party's political military wing and is operating out of Syria.

But General Lessel says he has little idea how the overall leadership is structured or how it's coordinated.

LESSEL: They have a common goal in that they want to see the multinational forces leave. They want to see the Iraqi government fail. But beyond that, they're still pitted at odds against each other for the ultimate end-state.

PENHAUL: Despite differences, they're waging what expert term a classic insurgency, striking military, economic and political targets. The insurgent leader threatened resistance fighters in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East may focus more heavily on economic sabotage in the future.

HAITHAN (through translator): America is an octopus, swimming in the river of oil. Dry the river, and the octopus will die. We will dry the oil of America, and America will die and Europe with them.

PENHAUL: He denied the Ba'ath Party had control over other factions using terror tactics, such as beheadings. But said Ba'athists had launched suicide attacks. Experts say resistance tactics are getting better coordinated and more sophisticated.

AL-ASKARY (through translator): The myth of American military power has evaporated. The American military is vulnerable on the ground and on the streets. However, they still retain supremacy in the air and with their artillery and missiles.

PENHAUL: That superior U.S. firepower was evident in Falluja. The close quarters urban combat looked spectacular. But in hit and run guerrilla warfare, the army that wins most battles is not ultimately guaranteed final victory.

At the head of an irregular Arab force in World War I, Lawrence of Arabia wrote, quote, "Our best line was to defend nothing. Our cards were speed and time, not hitting power," close quote.

Iraq's resistance rarely stands to fight to defend liberated zones. And while Falluja was falling, attacks spiked across the country. Ramadi, Baqubah, Mosul, Baiji, Tikrit, Samarra and Baghdad.

Many ordinary Iraqis say they see no end in sight. Their leaders are more optimistic.

GHAZI AL-YAWAH, IRAQI INTERIM PRESIDENT: We are not fighting Vietcong, which have principles and have support, popular support. We are fighting Saddam loyalists who are shielding behind beards and the name of Allah.

PENHAUL: The insurgents have presented no public political platform. Analysts say certain factions, religious extremism has little broad support.

But many Iraqis are simply tired of coalition troops on their streets or angry at what they see as the lack of cultural sensitivity. Resentment may be translating into popular support for the resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mujahideen!

PENHAUL: These girls in a makeshift refugee camp in Baghdad chant songs praising the Mujahideen. They fled their home in Falluja more than a month ago.

In the Sunni Triangle town of Bulruz (ph), this man recites a rebel poem at a rally calling for a boycott of January elections.

Efforts to build up Iraqi security forces are slow. The U.S. aim of turning over control of Baghdad to Iraqi forces by mid-2004 didn't materialize. Instead of cutting troops, Washington's bolstering levels to record highs before elections.

Still, U.S. commanders see the light ahead.

LESSEL: I don't know what the time line might be for all insurgency, for all terrorism to stop here, but certainly there is a horizon down the road. And I think getting through the elections safely and securely will take a lot of steam out of the insurgent movement.

PENHAUL: Publicly, officials reject the U.S. is bogged down in Iraq or caught in a quagmire. Privately, few U.S. field commanders would argue with Lawrence of Arabia's warning that fighting rebellion is messy and slow, like eating soup with a knife.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: He's accused of ordering the killings of thousands of Iraqis. Are Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi justice system ready for his trial? A lawyer for Saddam speaks out.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: The defense of a dictator. Saddam Hussein met with his lawyer today about his war crimes trial. It's the first time the former Iraqi leader has met with a lawyer since his capture.

Now, I spoke earlier today with Issam Ghazzawi. He's another member of Saddam's defense team. He expressed his displeasure about the trial process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISSAM GHAZZAWI, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S LAWYER: He is still the president of Iraq. Because the people in Iraq now governing, this interim government, what you call, they are puppets of the United States administration. They can't go to bathroom without execute -- taking permission from the states.

They declared many times that they want to make a trial as soon as possible. They said on the seventh month of this year, and then changed their mind to the 11th. Then they said before the end of the year. And yesterday, the prime minister said not before 2006.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, Ghazzawi also says that he doubts Saddam could also get a fair trial in Iraq.

We get more insight into the trial process now with former federal judge Stephen Orlofsky. Judge Orlofsky is with the Iraqi judicial assessment team which has been helping Iraq prepare for trial. He joins us now live from Philadelphia.

Judge, you actually went to Iraq. You got to see the courtrooms. You got to meet with a number of these individuals set to be judges, prosecutors. What do you think? How is the system looking right now?

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: Well, I think that the Iraqis are perfectly capable of presenting a case against Saddam for his crimes, his alleged crimes, and that the Iraqi special tribunal before which he will be tried is capable of handling the trial and giving him a fair trial.

PHILLIPS: Now, when I talked with one of Saddam's -- when I talked to this attorney, one of Saddam's attorneys earlier in the day, he said that -- that Saddam is innocent. He's done nothing wrong, that under the '71 constitution, that he has immunity, that he can't even be charged.

But let's put things in perspective here. Let's talk about the Iraqi special tribunal that was adopted before the handover of the new government and how Saddam can be charged and can be held accountable for the gassing of the Kurds and genocide and crimes against humanity.

ORLOFSKY: Well, first of all, this is a special tribunal, which was created to try war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. It contains -- and the process and procedures under which it will operate contain many of the same provisions which are found in the federal and state constitutions in the United States.

He's entitled to the assistance of counsel. He's entitled to a speedy trial. He's entitled to the presumption of innocence. The state, the prosecution, must prove his guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He's entitled to an adequate time to prepare his defense. And indeed, even if he is indigent, which I suspect he's not, he's entitled to have council appointed to represent him to defend him at the trial.

PHILLIPS: And let's explain to our viewers one more time this Iraqi special tribunal. It's an interesting system, how it's set up. What is taking place now? Judges in Iraq are investigating the evidence. Take it from there.

ORLOFSKY: The Iraqi judicial system is what's known as a civil law system, which is similar to the system which operates in France. In fact, much of Iraqi procedure is based on French law.

Instead of a prosecutor investigating a particular crime, an accused is brought before a judge known as an investigative -- an investigating magistrate judge, who performs many of the functions that a prosecutor and grand jury would perform in the United States.

He hears evidence from the police. He may order additional investigations. And he ultimately determines whether there is sufficient evidence of the crime of which the accused is charged to pass the case along to the tribunal for trial.

The tribunal in this case will be a panel of five judges. Under Iraqi procedure, there are no jury trials, and criminal trials are tried before judges.

For example, in the ordinary case, misdemeanors are tried before a single judge. Felonies are tried before three judges. And in this case with this tribunal, war crimes will be tried before five judges.

PHILLIPS: All right. And what's taking place right now? There isn't anything happening with Saddam besides the fact that he's met with one of his lawyers today.

But his henchmen, part of his regime, you've got Chemical Ali now that is being investigated by these judges. It looks like we're going to see a number of his regime members being investigated and going to trial before Saddam.

What is the reason for that? Is there a hope that they will flip and testify against Saddam?

ORLOFSKY: Well, I think there are probably several reasons for it. No. 1, the cases against his henchmen are probably less complicated to prove than the cases against him. There are probably fewer crimes and the evidence may be stronger.

And of course I'm sure the prosecution is hopeful that one or more of them will ultimately cooperate and testify against Saddam.

PHILLIPS: Judge Stephen Orlofsky, thank you so much for your time today. I'm curious: are you going back to Iraq?

ORLOFSKY: I haven't been asked, and I haven't volunteered.

PHILLIPS: It's a tough time to go back. I don't blame you. Well, we'll have you back definitely as the trials go forward. Sir, thank you so much for your time.

ORLOFSKY: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Fred.

WHITFIELD: Well 'tis the season to be shipping. And our Keith Oppenheim is in the middle of all the madness.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra, I'm inside UPS's main distribution center outside Chicago. And I am inside what's called the bullfrog. What is the bullfrog? I'll tell you in a live report, coming up.

WHITFIELD: And he's outspoken and often larger than life. Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban joins us to talk about the infamous basket brawl and about plans to give American veterans a courtside tribute.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange. Listen up, last-minute shoppers: the hottest gift this season is nearly sold out. I'll have that story coming up on LIVE FROM, so don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com