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Israel, Palestine Declare Plans to Work for Peace; Secretary Rice Speaks at French University; Pentagon Officials Estimate up to 15,000 Insurgents
Aired February 08, 2005 - 13:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ... And Palestinian leader Abbas met Tuesday in Sharm El Sheikh, for what was billed as a summit of hope to end a conflict often described as hopeless. Perennial pessimism tentatively replaced by a glimmer of optimism.
The Palestinians pledged an end to attacks on Israel. Israel responding that it will suspend military operations in the West Bank and Gaza.
The tone, suddenly very different.
MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): we look forward to that day and hoping that it will come as soon as possible in order that the language of negotiations will replace the language of bullets and cannons.
ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): For the first time for a long, long time now, we're seeing signs of a hope for a better future for our children and our grandchildren. We must cautiously progress. This is a very fragile opportunity. And we know that there are extremists who are just waiting to close this window of opportunity.
WEDEMAN: On the Israeli side hard-line settlers in Gaza and the West Bank are vehemently opposed to any Israeli pullback. Although Palestinian militant groups have agreed to hold their fire, Hamas, for one, says it's not bound by any cease-fire agreement.
And in the Arab world, many, like these Egyptian students, protesting Sharon's first official visit to their country, insist the armed struggle against Israel is still the only option.
The host of the summit, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, said he hoped progress between Israel and the Palestinians would spark a revival of talks with Lebanon and Syria.
And the meeting ended with the announcement that Jordan and Egypt are ready to return their ambassadors to Tel Aviv after a four-year absence.
(on camera) But for all the progress apparently achieved here today, the real issues that sparked the Palestinian uprising in the first place, including the final status of Jerusalem and the Palestinian right of return, are no closer to resolution today than they were 4 1/2 years ago. But this handshake at least suggests a new beginning.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Well, it was no Intifada. But the rift that gave rise to snubs and scorn and freedom fries is also a thing of the past. So says Condoleezza Rice in her first major policy address since becoming U.S. secretary of state. The location, Paris, an elite university, where U.S. foreign policy is even more of a curiosity than it is for the rest of France.
Rice says the so-called Bush doctrine is very much a team effort.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a time of unprecedented opportunity for the transatlantic alliance. If we make the pursuit of global freedom the organizing principle of the 21st Century, we will achieve historic global advances for justice and prosperity, for liberty and for peace.
But a global agenda requires a global partnership. So let us multiply our common efforts. That is why the United States, above all, welcomes the growing unity of Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel is traveling with Rice. And she joins us now on the phone. And Andrea, how did the speech go over today?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there was really a polite response by the audience: mostly intellectuals, some high- powered French diplomats and other dignitaries and then a handful of students.
But, you know, I got to tell you, Tony, Secretary Rice really was able to start to frame and redirect, at least that is her intention, the debate that has -- and the tensions that have existed in the U.S. transatlantic relationship in particular with France. The most virulent anti-American sentiment came from this country following the war in Iraq.
And as you laid out there, she really wanted to say, "Come on, guys. For the last 2 1/2, 3 years, there has been nothing but pettiness over freedom fries and French wine and where you think we're going with our policy. When actually, we have -- the United States and France and Germany and Great Britain and all the other members of the transatlantic alliance -- have something in common, and that is values. We have freedom. We have democracy, and we have an obligation," said Secretary Rice, "to share this, not to force it, but to share it, with other non -- with other oppressive societies, especially in the Arab world and the Middle East." And it's very much continuing the theme that President Bush began in his inauguration last week.
HARRIS: So Andrea, it sounds like there was a real attempt here to change some commonly held perceptions over in France. This idea of wanting a strong U.N., I think, was something mentioned in the talk today, growing unity in Europe. A lot of folks in France believe that the United States is against that notion.
KOPPEL: That's right, and Secretary Rice spoke to that specifically. She said, we want -- the United States, wants a united, strong Europe.
But let's be on the same page. Let's not work against one another. Let us use the powers and the experiences that our various countries have had over the last number of years.
And much as they did to end the Cold War, between NATO, the United States, using their -- their shared influence, to bring down the end of the Soviet Union and to bring about end of the Cold War and the end of the Berlin Wall and spread democracy through Eastern Europe. Let us do that in the Middle East and the Arab world.
Some very big strategic thoughts there.
HARRIS: OK, very good. CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel traveling with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice -- Kyra.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: One week, interesting numbers. How did it all come together? The Pentagon is putting out some concrete estimates now on the ranks of Iraqi insurgents.
CNN's Barbara Starr has all those facts and figures for us -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, it's been a real testy period with Congress over the last several days since the Iraqi election. Congress wants to know how many insurgents are left in Iraq. The Pentagon says it's very difficult to come to that assessment.
So just have a listen for a minute about the most recent exchange on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: General Myers, I'm disappointed that you don't have even a rough estimate of the number of insurgents. I don't know how you defeat an insurgency unless you have some handle on the number of people that you are facing.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We do have estimates. I said I'd provide them, they're -- most of them are classified.
MCCAIN: Well, you should have them readily at hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Well, indeed, most of them are classified. But even today, as the Pentagon released this video of a Predator drone launching attacks late last year against a number of insurgent targets, CNN learned what indeed the latest insurgent numbers are.
A senior U.S. military official with direct knowledge of what is going on in the region provided these numbers to CNN exclusively. He said that there are 12,000 to 15,000 Sunni Ba'athist-type insurgents. Of that, 5,000 to 7,000 are considered to be committed, hard-core fighters. The balance, the so-called fence-sitters, facilitators, criminals, foreign fighters that we've heard so much about, well, less than 500 now. Zarqawi loyalists, less than 1,000.
What they do estimate, also, is that in the last year, 2004, U.S. military and Iraqi operations have resulted in the capture or killing of some 15,000 insurgents in Iraq, maybe as many as 3,000 alone in that battle for Falluja late last year.
But, Kyra, what they're warning about is take all of this just to be a snapshot in time. It is very difficult for them to assess how many insurgents are in Iraq at any one point. People get killed; people join up.
The insurgency, now, they believe, many fighters looking at the post-election situation and calculating whether they want to continue with the insurgent attacks.
So there's a lot of uncertainty, they say, in all of this. That's why they're very reluctant to come out publicly and put a number to it -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, Barbara Starr, LIVE FROM the Pentagon. Thanks.
More LIVE FROM right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM, the art of faking it. A forensics lab studying not fiber and hair samples but paper and ink to track terrorists.
Later on LIVE FROM...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not ashamed to have said that, you know, I lie, cheat and steal on behalf of the U.S. government.
PHILLIPS: ... former CIA spies reveal their secrets.
Also, later on LIVE FROM, the Hollywood film shot in Afghanistan. You'll see the footage the U.S. military seized when we talked with the filmmaker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 8, 2005 - 13:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ... And Palestinian leader Abbas met Tuesday in Sharm El Sheikh, for what was billed as a summit of hope to end a conflict often described as hopeless. Perennial pessimism tentatively replaced by a glimmer of optimism.
The Palestinians pledged an end to attacks on Israel. Israel responding that it will suspend military operations in the West Bank and Gaza.
The tone, suddenly very different.
MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): we look forward to that day and hoping that it will come as soon as possible in order that the language of negotiations will replace the language of bullets and cannons.
ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): For the first time for a long, long time now, we're seeing signs of a hope for a better future for our children and our grandchildren. We must cautiously progress. This is a very fragile opportunity. And we know that there are extremists who are just waiting to close this window of opportunity.
WEDEMAN: On the Israeli side hard-line settlers in Gaza and the West Bank are vehemently opposed to any Israeli pullback. Although Palestinian militant groups have agreed to hold their fire, Hamas, for one, says it's not bound by any cease-fire agreement.
And in the Arab world, many, like these Egyptian students, protesting Sharon's first official visit to their country, insist the armed struggle against Israel is still the only option.
The host of the summit, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, said he hoped progress between Israel and the Palestinians would spark a revival of talks with Lebanon and Syria.
And the meeting ended with the announcement that Jordan and Egypt are ready to return their ambassadors to Tel Aviv after a four-year absence.
(on camera) But for all the progress apparently achieved here today, the real issues that sparked the Palestinian uprising in the first place, including the final status of Jerusalem and the Palestinian right of return, are no closer to resolution today than they were 4 1/2 years ago. But this handshake at least suggests a new beginning.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Well, it was no Intifada. But the rift that gave rise to snubs and scorn and freedom fries is also a thing of the past. So says Condoleezza Rice in her first major policy address since becoming U.S. secretary of state. The location, Paris, an elite university, where U.S. foreign policy is even more of a curiosity than it is for the rest of France.
Rice says the so-called Bush doctrine is very much a team effort.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a time of unprecedented opportunity for the transatlantic alliance. If we make the pursuit of global freedom the organizing principle of the 21st Century, we will achieve historic global advances for justice and prosperity, for liberty and for peace.
But a global agenda requires a global partnership. So let us multiply our common efforts. That is why the United States, above all, welcomes the growing unity of Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel is traveling with Rice. And she joins us now on the phone. And Andrea, how did the speech go over today?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there was really a polite response by the audience: mostly intellectuals, some high- powered French diplomats and other dignitaries and then a handful of students.
But, you know, I got to tell you, Tony, Secretary Rice really was able to start to frame and redirect, at least that is her intention, the debate that has -- and the tensions that have existed in the U.S. transatlantic relationship in particular with France. The most virulent anti-American sentiment came from this country following the war in Iraq.
And as you laid out there, she really wanted to say, "Come on, guys. For the last 2 1/2, 3 years, there has been nothing but pettiness over freedom fries and French wine and where you think we're going with our policy. When actually, we have -- the United States and France and Germany and Great Britain and all the other members of the transatlantic alliance -- have something in common, and that is values. We have freedom. We have democracy, and we have an obligation," said Secretary Rice, "to share this, not to force it, but to share it, with other non -- with other oppressive societies, especially in the Arab world and the Middle East." And it's very much continuing the theme that President Bush began in his inauguration last week.
HARRIS: So Andrea, it sounds like there was a real attempt here to change some commonly held perceptions over in France. This idea of wanting a strong U.N., I think, was something mentioned in the talk today, growing unity in Europe. A lot of folks in France believe that the United States is against that notion.
KOPPEL: That's right, and Secretary Rice spoke to that specifically. She said, we want -- the United States, wants a united, strong Europe.
But let's be on the same page. Let's not work against one another. Let us use the powers and the experiences that our various countries have had over the last number of years.
And much as they did to end the Cold War, between NATO, the United States, using their -- their shared influence, to bring down the end of the Soviet Union and to bring about end of the Cold War and the end of the Berlin Wall and spread democracy through Eastern Europe. Let us do that in the Middle East and the Arab world.
Some very big strategic thoughts there.
HARRIS: OK, very good. CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel traveling with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice -- Kyra.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: One week, interesting numbers. How did it all come together? The Pentagon is putting out some concrete estimates now on the ranks of Iraqi insurgents.
CNN's Barbara Starr has all those facts and figures for us -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, it's been a real testy period with Congress over the last several days since the Iraqi election. Congress wants to know how many insurgents are left in Iraq. The Pentagon says it's very difficult to come to that assessment.
So just have a listen for a minute about the most recent exchange on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: General Myers, I'm disappointed that you don't have even a rough estimate of the number of insurgents. I don't know how you defeat an insurgency unless you have some handle on the number of people that you are facing.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We do have estimates. I said I'd provide them, they're -- most of them are classified.
MCCAIN: Well, you should have them readily at hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Well, indeed, most of them are classified. But even today, as the Pentagon released this video of a Predator drone launching attacks late last year against a number of insurgent targets, CNN learned what indeed the latest insurgent numbers are.
A senior U.S. military official with direct knowledge of what is going on in the region provided these numbers to CNN exclusively. He said that there are 12,000 to 15,000 Sunni Ba'athist-type insurgents. Of that, 5,000 to 7,000 are considered to be committed, hard-core fighters. The balance, the so-called fence-sitters, facilitators, criminals, foreign fighters that we've heard so much about, well, less than 500 now. Zarqawi loyalists, less than 1,000.
What they do estimate, also, is that in the last year, 2004, U.S. military and Iraqi operations have resulted in the capture or killing of some 15,000 insurgents in Iraq, maybe as many as 3,000 alone in that battle for Falluja late last year.
But, Kyra, what they're warning about is take all of this just to be a snapshot in time. It is very difficult for them to assess how many insurgents are in Iraq at any one point. People get killed; people join up.
The insurgency, now, they believe, many fighters looking at the post-election situation and calculating whether they want to continue with the insurgent attacks.
So there's a lot of uncertainty, they say, in all of this. That's why they're very reluctant to come out publicly and put a number to it -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, Barbara Starr, LIVE FROM the Pentagon. Thanks.
More LIVE FROM right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM, the art of faking it. A forensics lab studying not fiber and hair samples but paper and ink to track terrorists.
Later on LIVE FROM...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not ashamed to have said that, you know, I lie, cheat and steal on behalf of the U.S. government.
PHILLIPS: ... former CIA spies reveal their secrets.
Also, later on LIVE FROM, the Hollywood film shot in Afghanistan. You'll see the footage the U.S. military seized when we talked with the filmmaker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
