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Pope Re-Hospitalized, Rumors of Surgery
Aired February 24, 2005 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Witnesses say he was conscious and looked relaxed when he went into the hospital today.
Also, President Bush meets Russian leader Vladimir Putin in Slovakia. Among the issues discussed, Russian democracy. Mr. Putin assures the Americans that he's committed to democracy and both sides affirm they do not Iran and North Korea to acquire nukes.
In Iraq, 12 police officers died in a suicide bombing in Tikrit today. They were among 23 people killed in the latest violence. A wave of attacks targeted police north and south of Baghdad. Two U.S. soldiers died in roadside bombings in northern Iraq. Five Iraqis died in clashes thought to be linked to strife between the Sunnis and the Shiites.
A tough sell in the heartland for Democratic chairman Howard Dean. The newly-crowned leader travels today to Republican-friendly Kansas, try to broaden his party's popularity. Just one problem. The state's Democratic governor won't appear with Dean in public. She's up for re-election next year.
Autism is a complex condition that sometimes locks people inside a world without a key. It can also mask extraordinary talents. A documentary co-produced by CNN Productions has been nominated now for an Academy Award. It's called "Autism is a World" and offers a view of autism rarely seen from the inside out. Here's a brief clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "AUTISM IS A WORLD")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a junior at Whittier College majoring in History. I attend classes with Ashlyn (ph), my friend and support staff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, you ready to go inside? OK, one, two, three.
Oh, the Cairo conference, remember, he keeps talking about this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ashlyn takes notes for me and is available when I want to communicate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE : All right, all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Randy Caldera (ph)? Jennifer Eastlake (ph)? Phu Ruben (ph)? Sue Vega (ph)?
The first thing I'm going to do, I'm going to start talking a little bit about ideologies and philosophies that were brought into play by the arrival of colonialism first, and then the rise of the nationalist movement in various parts of the Arab world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autism say constant struggle. It takes every ounce of energy I have to sit somewhat quietly during a two-hour lecture. I love learning, yet being looked upon as feeble-minded is something I have been forced to endure my entire life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good job. You can make it.
(END VIDEO CLIP FROM "AUTISM IS A WORLD")
PHILLIPS: That story is brought to life through the experienced eye of filmmaker Gerardine Wurzburg. She joins me now live from Los Angeles. Jerry, every time we look at that clip, it not only wants you more -- you want to see more, but you want to know so much more about Sue, and she actually wrote this, right?
GERARDINE WURZBURG, PRODUCER/DIRECTOR: Yes. Sue and I worked very closely on this film. She's a wonderful woman. And she has a very articulate way of speaking about her world. It's very courageous in terms of being willing to talk about those difficult things that she has to struggle with in order to get through daily life. So she and I worked very closely in terms of writing it and then also in terms of the filming.
PHILLIPS: Now, let's set up Sue's background, before we get to her life now. She was 4 years old, right, when she was diagnosed with autism. And actually, was it doctors that thought she was mentally retarded until she was a teenager?
WURZBURG: Yes. She was diagnosed at age 4, and then they tested her -- and you have to understand that Sue didn't -- had difficulty speaking in the way a normal child would be speaking. And she had behaviors because she couldn't communicate, that she would fall on the floor, she would bang her head on concrete, she would bite herself. And so she was very, very self-destructive. And they assumed that basically that she was mentally retarded, and because she looked, as she even says, they assumed I was because I -- I looked retarded.
And so then when she was around 13, she found a way to begin to communicate through typing. And then was able to demonstrate her intelligence. And then her I.Q. then, of course, shot up to, you know, 133 or whatever. And then she went to high school as a normal academic student. And now she's a junior in college. So she was able to communicate, so therefore she was able to establish her intelligence.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and I want wanted to point out right now, we're actually looking at her communicating. I'm not sure if this is Ashlyn. Is Ashlyn the one with her at school and at home? They're communicating through what looks like sort of a -- there it is. Kind of a blackberry device.
WURZBURG: Right. Sue communicates through typing. And she uses a small device sometimes because it's handy. She can put it in her purse and pull it out and type. She also uses a larger one, which is called a light writer, which you see in the film and other scenes, which actually displays exactly what she has to say as she's typing it. And then she presses a button, and it does it in a voice, an electronic voice, what she has to say. And in the film, she also uses that.
PHILLIPS: Now, something that grabbed my attention -- and tell me how you think, you know, a parent that has a child with autism, I'm thinking actually of a friend right now that has a child with autism. And I don't know if they have ever really talked about college or talked about, you know, the kind of future that Sue is living. Do you think by looking at this documentary, that parents might realize, oh, my gosh, you know, there's so much more that could happen here with my child's life.
WURZBURG: That's a very good observation, because I think what's important about what Sue shows you is that we must expect a tremendous future for our children. And it's in that expectation often that that future can happen. And in Sue's case, you know, the bar had been arbitrarily, unfortunately, placed low. But then as soon as she demonstrated that she could do something, the assumption was that we're going to put her in regular academic classes.
I think it's a very important lesson for parents of younger children with autism, that there's lots of intervention that you can do to persist, to believe in your child's confidence and stay with your child and let them demonstrate capability. And I think it's a very important message for any parent of any child.
PHILLIPS: Gerri Wurzburg, it is up for an Academy Award. We can't wait to see how it does. Thank you so much for your time. It's truly inspiring. I hope everybody gets a chance to see this. Thank you.
WURZBURG: Thank you very much.
PHILLIPS: CNN also is going to air it as a special on Sunday, may 22nd. You can catch it then.
Now, the other big story that we've been talking about today. We're now getting word that the Italian news agency is reporting that doctors may operate on the pope within the next few hours. We're looking at a live picture here of Gemelli Hospital. This is where the pope checked into, actually, back on February 1st. He was there nine days because he was suffering from the flu. It was causing respiratory problems. He was there for nine days. Then he was released. Well, today he was having more respiratory problems, so it sent him back to the hospital.
And as the day -- as the day has progressed, we have learned more and more about the pope's condition. And that is that doctors began talking about a possible tracheotomy. We told you about that about 15 minutes ago. Now Italian news agencies are saying that it looks like doctors may operate on the pope within the next several hours.
Now, a tracheotomy, we've told you about this procedure. Our dr. Sanjay Gupta has told us about this procedure. And basically, this is what it looks like. An incision is actually made into the windpipe, where the tracheotomy -- well, the trach tube, actually, is put into, and then the tube is put down into the windpipe, which will help the pope breathe much easier. He's got an inflamed windpipe, is what we've been telling -- or being told, rather, from doctors. Something that could be related to Parkinson's Disease.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta telling us when you have Parkinson's disease, of course, it affects your nerves, and it can -- that, of course, can affect the -- actually, Dr. Sanjay Gupta coming up to the set with us right now. As you put your mike on, I'm trying to actually do your job, Dr. Gupta and explain to folks about the tracheotomy, the relation to Parkinson's Disease, which we know the pope has been dealing with for a number of years, including -- well, he's had a number of ailments, including his hip and knee ailments and the Parkinson's, and now the respiratory problems because of the flu.
Tell us about this procedure. If, indeed, what Italian media is reporting is true, that he will have a tracheotomy, how is that going to help his breathing?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, first of all, again, when someone is having difficulty breathing, securing the airway is mission No. 1. Really a couple of ways to do that. One is to actually put a tube from the mouth into the trachea. The second way is to really do this tracheotomy, which we've been talking so much about now.
I have a model here. and I think this actually illustrates the point fairly well. Typically, what is done, I don't know if you can see this yet, but what is done is that a tube is placed from the mouth actually into the trachea here. That is a typical way things are done, if someone doesn't have an inflamed trachea, if someone hasn't had spasm of their upper airway.
What they're talking about here is actually making an incision in the neck and putting a tube directly into the trachea from below the mouth, into the neck. Why is that done? Really for a couple of different reasons. One reason is that there's too much inflammation in the upper airway. A second reason is that the upper airway may be -- have too much spasm. But I got to say, I've talked to a few doctors about that already. It is a little bit unusual, Kyra, to go straight to the...
... different reasons. One reason is that there's too much inflammation in the upper airway. A second reason is that the upper airway may have too much spasm. But I've got to say, I've talked to a few doctors about that already. It is a little bit unusual, Kyra, to go straight to the tracheotomy as opposed to putting that tube in first. Details a little bit sparse, as you know, coming out of the Vatican. Trying to pin why that reason is right now.
PHILLIPS: Well, could they have skipped that part and gone straight to a possible tracheotomy because of how severe it is? GUPTA: They could. And it could be because they may have even tried to put a tube down from the mouth into the trachea and been unsuccessful. A failed intubation, that's called, and then actually tried to do the tracheotomy now.
A tracheotomy is typically an urgent procedure. Not always emergent, but urgent. It's not something you sort of schedule electively. It has to be done soon, within minutes to hours. In the meantime, he may be just getting supplemental oxygen by a face mask or something like that. But again, difficult to know. We heard yesterday he was having difficulties with his breathing. We also heard that he appeared quite relaxed. Someone that's having significant enough problems with their breathing that they need a tracheotomy usually is in what we call respiratory distress, having some trouble.
PHILLIPS: OK. Stay with us here for a moment. I'm told we've got Jim Bittermann with us now. He's outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, what do you know at this point?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, about the only thing we can add to what Dr. Gupta was saying is that we understand from a Vatican source that, in fact, it is plausible that the pope is undergoing some kind of operation or will undergo some kind of operation. They're not confirming or denying it. There's been a report out here for the last, oh, 45 minutes or an hour or so from some of the Italian media saying that the pope was going to go into the operating room for the kind of operation that Dr. Gupta was describing.
And while the Vatican won't say anything either way, they are saying that's plausible, at least a senior spokesman at the Vatican is saying. So it's really difficult for us to know without more details, exactly what is going on. But as Dr. Gupta was describing, and I think that it's a kind of likely procedure that one might have to do in such condition.
PHILLIPS: Jim, some of the viewers may be wondering why it's so difficult to get information. And John Allen, one of our -- The National Catholic Reporter who reports to us from the Vatican was saying it's because, you know, this is someone -- this is an individual that has gone through so much, and so many people don't want to think of anything in a negative way. And so it's sort of hard to get that information.
And when you look at his background going through the hip and knee ailments and also dealing with Parkinson's disease, it is pretty amazing what he has endured to this point. And so I'm getting the feeling that everybody is continually, I guess, maintaining this positive mindset as this possible surgery goes forward.
BITTERMANN: Well, I think, you know, I'd take it even a little further than what John says, and that is that one should not forget that this is an absolute monarch that we're talking about here. And all the people around him will change when a new pope is elected. So I think there's this interest among the people around him that are looking for him to make sure that he carries on as long as possible. Because after all, should he die, then their jobs will disappear as the new pope is elected.
PHILLIPS: Well, that's interesting because his latest illness has reopened the debate about whether the pope should retire instead of reigning for life. I have a feeling possibly we might hear more about that?
BITTERMANN: Well, the last time he was here, we heard Angelo Sodano say that, in fact, it was up to the pope, and it was to the pope's conscience on whether or not he would elect to retire or resign. Now, of course, there hasn't been any modern pope that has done that, and in fact there's no procedure for it. I mean, the pope would have to invent the procedure for his own resignation because you have to first make sure that the Holy See is empty, as it's said in Latin, "sede vacante," that "the chair is empty." And so he would have to come up with some kind of a procedure for that, which as far as anyone knows, does not exist.
Now there were rumors some years ago that the pope had written a letter of what should be done, what steps should be taken in the instance where he might be so incapacitated that he would be unable to make decisions himself. That has never been -- just a rumor that was around. And it probably stems from the fact that this pope, more than many in the past, has an inclination to be very controlling about -- just about everything.
So the suggestion was made that perhaps he had also come up with some kind of procedure that was contained in this mysterious letter. But like I said, it's never been confirmed.
PHILLIPS: All right. Jim Bittermann outside of Gemelli Hospital there, we're going to ask you to stay with us.
If you're just tuning in, we're getting word now from the Italian media...
BITTERMANN: Sure.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Jim. That Pope John Paul II, after being admitted, once again, into the hospital after a relapse, having respiratory problems. We're getting word that doctors may operate on the pope in the next few hours. And the talk is a possible tracheotomy. Dr. Sanjay Gupta with us talking about this type of surgery. 84 years old, when -- I've mentioned this before, obviously, any surgery is risky. But you're saying that you're more concerned about the anesthesia versus the surgery.
GUPTA: Absolutely. When you talk about someone who is 84 years old, has significant existing medical problems including Parkinson's, the anesthesia is almost always going to be the bigger risk in today's day and age. The operation itself is a commonly done operation.
It's worth pointing out as well that it's typically an urgent operation. This isn't something you sort of electively schedule for the most part. If someone is having significant difficulty breathing and cannot have an airway passed from the mouth, an airway does have to be passed from the neck. And that's what a tracheotomy is.
The general anesthesia, he would probably be asleep, again, under general anesthesia for this procedure. Probably take half an hour to an hour to actually perform the operation. But then it would take some time for him to wake up and be back to his full senses again.
The Parkinson's actually complicates that picture a bit as well and may take a bit longer in someone of his age and existing medical problems.
PHILLIPS: And let's explain how the Parkinson's could contribute to this or making this a difficult process, even possibly causing the breathing problems that he's had because of what Parkinson's does to the nervous system.
GUPTA: Certainly could contribute to breathing problems. A lot of people don't realize that because when you think of a patient with Parkinson's disease you're typically thinking of someone who has a tremor, someone who has some rigidity of the muscles. But it can affect all sorts of different muscles, including some of those muscles in the upper airway.
So now take a man who is 84 years old, who's already had some difficulty breathing, who may have the flu as well on top of that, and then add this spasm of the upper airway because of the Parkinson's, all of these things start to add up in a big way. And maybe part of the reason, at least, that he could have a tracheotomy, like we're hearing so much about now.
PHILLIPS: And the tracheotomy just helps to clear the lungs. And explain what it does.
GUPTA: The tracheotomy really is to secure the airway. This is a really important point. Mission number one for any doctor, anybody in a hospital, is to make sure the patient has an airway. You can see the diagram there. That's obviously a head from the side-view. The mouth is up above. Typically a tube would go from the mouth into the airway. That is called an endotrachial tube.
In this situation, an operation is actually performed, and an incision is made in the neck. A tube is actually then placed directly into the trachea. And that's where it gets its name, a tracheotomy. Again, this is an operation, it's done to secure the airway because he's having trouble breathing. They might actually hook that up to a ventilator and provide breaths for the pope if this procedure is in fact being done.
It will also make it easier for his lungs to be cleaned if he's developing anything like a pneumonia, for example.
PHILLIPS: If, indeed, he does undergo this surgery, what is life like after a tracheotomy?
GUPTA: That's a good question. Because people consider it an invasive procedure, and it is. He won't be able to speak while he has the tracheotomy in place. And once that tracheotomy comes out, it will take some time for the wound to heal over. But if everything goes as planned, the tracheotomy is successful and he recovers from this infection or this pneumonia or the flu, whatever it is that he has specifically, he should do very well.
That's barring his advanced age and his Parkinson's. Most people after this procedure do well. In his case, it's a little bit more difficult, Kyra, again, because of all these other medical problems and his age.
We talk about the flu so much, you and I. We say that 36,000 people, maybe more than that, die of the flu every year. Who are those people? They're typically not healthy people, they're people like the pope, of advanced age and of existing medical problems. So it's to be considered seriously.
PHILLIPS: Do we know if the -- and I'm thinking about this off the top of my head, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but do we know if the pope got a flu shot?
GUPTA: We do know, and he did get a flu shot. We checked into that, actually. And I always say to people, it's not a reason to say, don't get your flu shot because the pope may have still gotten the flu despite the flu shot, but he did get one, and he is exactly the right sort of person to get one, an elderly person with existing medical problems.
PHILLIPS: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, stay with us. We want to go back to Jim Bittermann, who is just outside of Gemelli Hospital where the pope is.
Jim, bring us up to date on what the scene is like there outside the hospital, what you know. Have you been able to gain any more information on the pope, his condition and if indeed he'll undergo surgery in a couple hours?
OK. We're going to get hooked up with our Jim Bittermann, once again, outside of Gemelli Hospital. If you are just tuning in, we are getting word, Italian media is reporting that doctors may soon operate on Pope John Paul II.
Just to give you a little background, you'll remember February 1st, the pope checked into the hospital. He was having respiratory problems due to the flu. He was in the hospital nine days. He was released about 13 days ago. So he really hasn't been out for a while. However, when he was released, he did make a couple public appearances, you'll even remember here from his hospital window. It's incredible.
And Sanjay, maybe, you know, we can talk about this from a medical standpoint. When you look at everything he's been through, it's just incredible how he gathers up the energy to continue to address, you know, all the people that love him and have shown support for him. I even -- I don't know if you remember the story of the little boy with cancer that came into his room? GUPTA: Right.
PHILLIPS: And he said, pope, can you make me better? And he said, hey, you know, we're going to try and make all of us better. I mean, he's just incredible, his spirit through all of this.
GUPTA: And it is. It is an enormous thing to admire. A lot of doctors probably would have told him, and I'm sure doctors did tell him, to take it easy. There's a very good chance -- while it's not uncommon for someone to have a relapse of these sorts of symptoms, a lot of doctors would have advised him to sort of take it easy. He's probably not fully recovered still from his first hospitalization. And now he's back in the hospital for the second time in less than a month.
It's difficult. You know, when you have a man like the pope who is so engaging and wants to be out there, trying to keep a busy public schedule, all these sorts of things. If I were his doctor, and I'm sure a lot of the doctors that do take care of him would have said, listen, the next couple weeks, you really -- it's bed rest, it's fluids, it's all the things that our mothers told us in terms of trying to stay healthy. That's how you beat the flu, even if you are 84 years old and the pope.
PHILLIPS: And knowing the pope, he's probably saying my people need me. You can tell me whatever you want, but this is what I'm going to do. I mean, just, you know, going back and remembering everything that he's gone through. And I want to ask you from a medical perspective, I mean, you know, in addition to suffering from Parkinson's, he's had a number of chronic diseases, including the crippling hip and knee ailments. He underwent nine operations.
GUPTA: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Including the hip replacement. And he also, you know, we can't forget that he survived that assassination attempt.
GUPTA: Shot, yes.
PHILLIPS: Exactly. And now here he is with the flu and the respiratory. I mean, it's absolutely incredible at 84 years old -- I mean, it has something to say, definitely, I think about the spiritual side of his life.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean, you know, there's no question. He's had more medical conditions than you think a lot of people would have and still live to be 84. He's survived cancer. He's survived an assassination attempt. He's had body parts replaced. And now he's had Parkinson's Disease. Most recently, two hospitalizations in the last month. It's a lot. And add to the fact that he's 84 years old. You know, spirituality aside, he certainly is different than other people in the sense that he also gets some of the best medical care probably in the world.
Within the Vatican itself, it's worth pointing out that some of the medical facilities there are really remarkable, which is why when they take him to the hospital, it sort of gets all of our antennas up. Why are they taking him from the Vatican to the hospital unless it's something a little bit more serious? And as soon as we hear that, we say, well, he may be having troubles with his breathing. He may have significant infection, something that can't typically be taken care of in the Vatican. And you know, they have good medical facilities there.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's interesting what you say about the medical facilities. I want to talk about that, I'm going to make a note so I remember to ask you about the medical care there in Rome. Meanwhile, I understand now we have Jim Bittermann live in front of the camera just outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, have you learned anything else about this surgery that may take place in a couple of hours?
BITTERMANN: Not really. And, in fact, all we're hearing is that this is an Italian media reports, that there could be surgery, and the Vatican press office is not saying one way or the other. They're saying it's plausible. And as Dr. Gupta was pointing out, it's the kind that one might expect in this kind of condition, but they're not confirming or denying it. And I think probably we won't hear anything until after it's already taken place if, indeed, it is going to take place. This is the kind of thing that they probably wouldn't want to say anything about until they were absolutely sure that things had turned out the way they were wanting them to.
As you pointed out before, Kyra, in fact, it is very tight control over all information coming out of the hospital here. The last time the pope was here at Gemelli, in fact, the hospital authorities were not permitted to issue any kind of medical bulletins on their own. It was the Vatican that cleared everything and basically wrote all the kinds of statements that we did get about the pope's medical condition. Something is being tightly controlled by the Vatican.
But the point that Dr. Gupta just made, I think, is a very important one, and that's what is why -- and that's what certainly gets us all curious is why, in fact, did they take the pope from the Vatican this morning and bring him here once again? Because after all, the Vatican does have a fairly well-equipped clinic. It's gotten better equipped over the years because of the pope's various ailments. So the question is why do they feel it necessary to bring the pope here?
This is of course is a great hospital, a teaching hospital, a huge hospital that has everything you could want in the way of a hospital. But as Dr. Gupta might be able to say more about, the fact is, when you bring a patient to a hospital, you're exposing the person to a whole new environment in which there might be, for instance, some penicillin-resistant bacteria and other things that might cause other infections. So it is kind of a risky thing, bringing someone into this kind of environment if it's not absolutely necessary. And in the pope's case, it does raise that question because there is this clinic within the Vatican that's pretty well-equipped -- Kyra. PHILLIPS: Our Jim Bittermann outside of Gemelli hospital. Ask you to stand by. We also have our Dr. Sanjay Gupta here on set here in Atlanta with us. Now we want to take you to Rome and Delia Gallagher. She's in our Rome bureau.
Let's just start with what you know, if you've had a chance to talk with anybody close to the pope, Delia, and any information you can add to what we know so far, and that's possible reports that the Pope John Paul II may be going into surgery in the next couple of hours?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't have any confirmation of that for you, Kyra. That is reported by the Italian press as a possibility. And, of course, one has to take it into consideration that a tracheotomy might be something that an 84-year- old man with breathing difficulties might become subject to. But Vatican sources are telling us they're cautiously alarmed about this. You know, two weeks ago they saw something similar. But there was even more of a sense of an urgency two weeks ago. Today, we saw that he had problems last night and this morning only they took him into the hospital. So that suggests that it's something slightly more routine, but we don't have any confirmation yet about whether he will be going in for an operation -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia, a bit of a personal question, since you have covered the Vatican, you've covered the life of the pope for such a long time. Dr. Sanjay Gupta was saying, you know, as his doctor, I would tell him to slow down and not do so much. Yet it's amazing how Pope John Paul II just continues to fight back and make public appearances and meet with those who are showing so much support for him. On a personal level, tell us about his spirit and his strength and the fact that he doesn't want to let any of his medical issues get in the way of leading his flock.
GALLAGHER: Well, that's absolutely right, Kyra. Something that you see very close up when you watch the pope, that even though his power of speech is somewhat lessened now, he still manages to keep his aides to the side. He likes to control things on his own. In fact, last time when he was sent to the hospital, he was sent there. He didn't really want to go.
So this is a man who still has great willpower and a desire to continue and nobody can tell him what to do. So all of this discussion about the pope resigning is something that, in the last analysis, has to be left up to the pope. And this is a pope who, as you say, has a very strong will. So we've seen him go into the hospital before. We may see him come out again and continue his service in the way he's done in the past 26 years -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And even when he checked in the hospital on February 1st, Delia, I remember Alessio Vinci telling us about the young boy with cancer that made his way into the pope's hospital room and had a conversation with him. Can you recap that story for us? Do you remember that? OK.
GALLAGHER: Yes, absolutely, because you see, on the tenth floor of the hospital where the pope is, he has his private quarters, but there is also the pediatric oncology unit. So every time he's been there before he's always gone in and said hello to the kids when he's leaving. This time a little boy kept asking his personal secretary, well, is he there really? Is the pope next door to us? And so the person, the private secretary said, well, come with me, and he took him in to meet the pope.
So that was another sign of how this pope really wants to continue that contact because he thinks that this is his moment. Of course, he's in pain and suffering and so on. But that is, in some way, a symbol of what his whole papacy has been about, this human suffering. So he doesn't mind continuing to show that face on the world stage -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia Gallagher, I'm going to ask you to stand by. And once again, you're watching rolling, breaking news coverage here from the CNN Center in Atlanta. We want to welcome our international viewers now. If you are just tuning in, we want to let you know that Italian media right now reporting that doctors may operate on Pope John Paul II in the next few hours. We can tell you that today he did go back into the hospital after being released from the hospital 13 days ago. He is back in, once again with respiratory problems.
We are being told that doctors are considering a tracheotomy. We're going to talk more about that in a minute. We have Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, we also have our Jim Bittermann, who is outside of Gemelli Hospital. And once again, CNN Vatican correspondent, Delia Gallagher, there in the Rome bureau. We're covering all angles of this story right now.
Jim Bittermann, let's go straight to you outside of Gemelli Hospital and update both our domestic and international viewers right now on the condition of Pope John Paul II, what you know and what you may know about what Italian media is reporting right now about possible surgery.
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Aired February 24, 2005 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Witnesses say he was conscious and looked relaxed when he went into the hospital today.
Also, President Bush meets Russian leader Vladimir Putin in Slovakia. Among the issues discussed, Russian democracy. Mr. Putin assures the Americans that he's committed to democracy and both sides affirm they do not Iran and North Korea to acquire nukes.
In Iraq, 12 police officers died in a suicide bombing in Tikrit today. They were among 23 people killed in the latest violence. A wave of attacks targeted police north and south of Baghdad. Two U.S. soldiers died in roadside bombings in northern Iraq. Five Iraqis died in clashes thought to be linked to strife between the Sunnis and the Shiites.
A tough sell in the heartland for Democratic chairman Howard Dean. The newly-crowned leader travels today to Republican-friendly Kansas, try to broaden his party's popularity. Just one problem. The state's Democratic governor won't appear with Dean in public. She's up for re-election next year.
Autism is a complex condition that sometimes locks people inside a world without a key. It can also mask extraordinary talents. A documentary co-produced by CNN Productions has been nominated now for an Academy Award. It's called "Autism is a World" and offers a view of autism rarely seen from the inside out. Here's a brief clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "AUTISM IS A WORLD")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a junior at Whittier College majoring in History. I attend classes with Ashlyn (ph), my friend and support staff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, you ready to go inside? OK, one, two, three.
Oh, the Cairo conference, remember, he keeps talking about this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ashlyn takes notes for me and is available when I want to communicate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE : All right, all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Randy Caldera (ph)? Jennifer Eastlake (ph)? Phu Ruben (ph)? Sue Vega (ph)?
The first thing I'm going to do, I'm going to start talking a little bit about ideologies and philosophies that were brought into play by the arrival of colonialism first, and then the rise of the nationalist movement in various parts of the Arab world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autism say constant struggle. It takes every ounce of energy I have to sit somewhat quietly during a two-hour lecture. I love learning, yet being looked upon as feeble-minded is something I have been forced to endure my entire life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good job. You can make it.
(END VIDEO CLIP FROM "AUTISM IS A WORLD")
PHILLIPS: That story is brought to life through the experienced eye of filmmaker Gerardine Wurzburg. She joins me now live from Los Angeles. Jerry, every time we look at that clip, it not only wants you more -- you want to see more, but you want to know so much more about Sue, and she actually wrote this, right?
GERARDINE WURZBURG, PRODUCER/DIRECTOR: Yes. Sue and I worked very closely on this film. She's a wonderful woman. And she has a very articulate way of speaking about her world. It's very courageous in terms of being willing to talk about those difficult things that she has to struggle with in order to get through daily life. So she and I worked very closely in terms of writing it and then also in terms of the filming.
PHILLIPS: Now, let's set up Sue's background, before we get to her life now. She was 4 years old, right, when she was diagnosed with autism. And actually, was it doctors that thought she was mentally retarded until she was a teenager?
WURZBURG: Yes. She was diagnosed at age 4, and then they tested her -- and you have to understand that Sue didn't -- had difficulty speaking in the way a normal child would be speaking. And she had behaviors because she couldn't communicate, that she would fall on the floor, she would bang her head on concrete, she would bite herself. And so she was very, very self-destructive. And they assumed that basically that she was mentally retarded, and because she looked, as she even says, they assumed I was because I -- I looked retarded.
And so then when she was around 13, she found a way to begin to communicate through typing. And then was able to demonstrate her intelligence. And then her I.Q. then, of course, shot up to, you know, 133 or whatever. And then she went to high school as a normal academic student. And now she's a junior in college. So she was able to communicate, so therefore she was able to establish her intelligence.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and I want wanted to point out right now, we're actually looking at her communicating. I'm not sure if this is Ashlyn. Is Ashlyn the one with her at school and at home? They're communicating through what looks like sort of a -- there it is. Kind of a blackberry device.
WURZBURG: Right. Sue communicates through typing. And she uses a small device sometimes because it's handy. She can put it in her purse and pull it out and type. She also uses a larger one, which is called a light writer, which you see in the film and other scenes, which actually displays exactly what she has to say as she's typing it. And then she presses a button, and it does it in a voice, an electronic voice, what she has to say. And in the film, she also uses that.
PHILLIPS: Now, something that grabbed my attention -- and tell me how you think, you know, a parent that has a child with autism, I'm thinking actually of a friend right now that has a child with autism. And I don't know if they have ever really talked about college or talked about, you know, the kind of future that Sue is living. Do you think by looking at this documentary, that parents might realize, oh, my gosh, you know, there's so much more that could happen here with my child's life.
WURZBURG: That's a very good observation, because I think what's important about what Sue shows you is that we must expect a tremendous future for our children. And it's in that expectation often that that future can happen. And in Sue's case, you know, the bar had been arbitrarily, unfortunately, placed low. But then as soon as she demonstrated that she could do something, the assumption was that we're going to put her in regular academic classes.
I think it's a very important lesson for parents of younger children with autism, that there's lots of intervention that you can do to persist, to believe in your child's confidence and stay with your child and let them demonstrate capability. And I think it's a very important message for any parent of any child.
PHILLIPS: Gerri Wurzburg, it is up for an Academy Award. We can't wait to see how it does. Thank you so much for your time. It's truly inspiring. I hope everybody gets a chance to see this. Thank you.
WURZBURG: Thank you very much.
PHILLIPS: CNN also is going to air it as a special on Sunday, may 22nd. You can catch it then.
Now, the other big story that we've been talking about today. We're now getting word that the Italian news agency is reporting that doctors may operate on the pope within the next few hours. We're looking at a live picture here of Gemelli Hospital. This is where the pope checked into, actually, back on February 1st. He was there nine days because he was suffering from the flu. It was causing respiratory problems. He was there for nine days. Then he was released. Well, today he was having more respiratory problems, so it sent him back to the hospital.
And as the day -- as the day has progressed, we have learned more and more about the pope's condition. And that is that doctors began talking about a possible tracheotomy. We told you about that about 15 minutes ago. Now Italian news agencies are saying that it looks like doctors may operate on the pope within the next several hours.
Now, a tracheotomy, we've told you about this procedure. Our dr. Sanjay Gupta has told us about this procedure. And basically, this is what it looks like. An incision is actually made into the windpipe, where the tracheotomy -- well, the trach tube, actually, is put into, and then the tube is put down into the windpipe, which will help the pope breathe much easier. He's got an inflamed windpipe, is what we've been telling -- or being told, rather, from doctors. Something that could be related to Parkinson's Disease.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta telling us when you have Parkinson's disease, of course, it affects your nerves, and it can -- that, of course, can affect the -- actually, Dr. Sanjay Gupta coming up to the set with us right now. As you put your mike on, I'm trying to actually do your job, Dr. Gupta and explain to folks about the tracheotomy, the relation to Parkinson's Disease, which we know the pope has been dealing with for a number of years, including -- well, he's had a number of ailments, including his hip and knee ailments and the Parkinson's, and now the respiratory problems because of the flu.
Tell us about this procedure. If, indeed, what Italian media is reporting is true, that he will have a tracheotomy, how is that going to help his breathing?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, first of all, again, when someone is having difficulty breathing, securing the airway is mission No. 1. Really a couple of ways to do that. One is to actually put a tube from the mouth into the trachea. The second way is to really do this tracheotomy, which we've been talking so much about now.
I have a model here. and I think this actually illustrates the point fairly well. Typically, what is done, I don't know if you can see this yet, but what is done is that a tube is placed from the mouth actually into the trachea here. That is a typical way things are done, if someone doesn't have an inflamed trachea, if someone hasn't had spasm of their upper airway.
What they're talking about here is actually making an incision in the neck and putting a tube directly into the trachea from below the mouth, into the neck. Why is that done? Really for a couple of different reasons. One reason is that there's too much inflammation in the upper airway. A second reason is that the upper airway may be -- have too much spasm. But I got to say, I've talked to a few doctors about that already. It is a little bit unusual, Kyra, to go straight to the...
... different reasons. One reason is that there's too much inflammation in the upper airway. A second reason is that the upper airway may have too much spasm. But I've got to say, I've talked to a few doctors about that already. It is a little bit unusual, Kyra, to go straight to the tracheotomy as opposed to putting that tube in first. Details a little bit sparse, as you know, coming out of the Vatican. Trying to pin why that reason is right now.
PHILLIPS: Well, could they have skipped that part and gone straight to a possible tracheotomy because of how severe it is? GUPTA: They could. And it could be because they may have even tried to put a tube down from the mouth into the trachea and been unsuccessful. A failed intubation, that's called, and then actually tried to do the tracheotomy now.
A tracheotomy is typically an urgent procedure. Not always emergent, but urgent. It's not something you sort of schedule electively. It has to be done soon, within minutes to hours. In the meantime, he may be just getting supplemental oxygen by a face mask or something like that. But again, difficult to know. We heard yesterday he was having difficulties with his breathing. We also heard that he appeared quite relaxed. Someone that's having significant enough problems with their breathing that they need a tracheotomy usually is in what we call respiratory distress, having some trouble.
PHILLIPS: OK. Stay with us here for a moment. I'm told we've got Jim Bittermann with us now. He's outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, what do you know at this point?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, about the only thing we can add to what Dr. Gupta was saying is that we understand from a Vatican source that, in fact, it is plausible that the pope is undergoing some kind of operation or will undergo some kind of operation. They're not confirming or denying it. There's been a report out here for the last, oh, 45 minutes or an hour or so from some of the Italian media saying that the pope was going to go into the operating room for the kind of operation that Dr. Gupta was describing.
And while the Vatican won't say anything either way, they are saying that's plausible, at least a senior spokesman at the Vatican is saying. So it's really difficult for us to know without more details, exactly what is going on. But as Dr. Gupta was describing, and I think that it's a kind of likely procedure that one might have to do in such condition.
PHILLIPS: Jim, some of the viewers may be wondering why it's so difficult to get information. And John Allen, one of our -- The National Catholic Reporter who reports to us from the Vatican was saying it's because, you know, this is someone -- this is an individual that has gone through so much, and so many people don't want to think of anything in a negative way. And so it's sort of hard to get that information.
And when you look at his background going through the hip and knee ailments and also dealing with Parkinson's disease, it is pretty amazing what he has endured to this point. And so I'm getting the feeling that everybody is continually, I guess, maintaining this positive mindset as this possible surgery goes forward.
BITTERMANN: Well, I think, you know, I'd take it even a little further than what John says, and that is that one should not forget that this is an absolute monarch that we're talking about here. And all the people around him will change when a new pope is elected. So I think there's this interest among the people around him that are looking for him to make sure that he carries on as long as possible. Because after all, should he die, then their jobs will disappear as the new pope is elected.
PHILLIPS: Well, that's interesting because his latest illness has reopened the debate about whether the pope should retire instead of reigning for life. I have a feeling possibly we might hear more about that?
BITTERMANN: Well, the last time he was here, we heard Angelo Sodano say that, in fact, it was up to the pope, and it was to the pope's conscience on whether or not he would elect to retire or resign. Now, of course, there hasn't been any modern pope that has done that, and in fact there's no procedure for it. I mean, the pope would have to invent the procedure for his own resignation because you have to first make sure that the Holy See is empty, as it's said in Latin, "sede vacante," that "the chair is empty." And so he would have to come up with some kind of a procedure for that, which as far as anyone knows, does not exist.
Now there were rumors some years ago that the pope had written a letter of what should be done, what steps should be taken in the instance where he might be so incapacitated that he would be unable to make decisions himself. That has never been -- just a rumor that was around. And it probably stems from the fact that this pope, more than many in the past, has an inclination to be very controlling about -- just about everything.
So the suggestion was made that perhaps he had also come up with some kind of procedure that was contained in this mysterious letter. But like I said, it's never been confirmed.
PHILLIPS: All right. Jim Bittermann outside of Gemelli Hospital there, we're going to ask you to stay with us.
If you're just tuning in, we're getting word now from the Italian media...
BITTERMANN: Sure.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Jim. That Pope John Paul II, after being admitted, once again, into the hospital after a relapse, having respiratory problems. We're getting word that doctors may operate on the pope in the next few hours. And the talk is a possible tracheotomy. Dr. Sanjay Gupta with us talking about this type of surgery. 84 years old, when -- I've mentioned this before, obviously, any surgery is risky. But you're saying that you're more concerned about the anesthesia versus the surgery.
GUPTA: Absolutely. When you talk about someone who is 84 years old, has significant existing medical problems including Parkinson's, the anesthesia is almost always going to be the bigger risk in today's day and age. The operation itself is a commonly done operation.
It's worth pointing out as well that it's typically an urgent operation. This isn't something you sort of electively schedule for the most part. If someone is having significant difficulty breathing and cannot have an airway passed from the mouth, an airway does have to be passed from the neck. And that's what a tracheotomy is.
The general anesthesia, he would probably be asleep, again, under general anesthesia for this procedure. Probably take half an hour to an hour to actually perform the operation. But then it would take some time for him to wake up and be back to his full senses again.
The Parkinson's actually complicates that picture a bit as well and may take a bit longer in someone of his age and existing medical problems.
PHILLIPS: And let's explain how the Parkinson's could contribute to this or making this a difficult process, even possibly causing the breathing problems that he's had because of what Parkinson's does to the nervous system.
GUPTA: Certainly could contribute to breathing problems. A lot of people don't realize that because when you think of a patient with Parkinson's disease you're typically thinking of someone who has a tremor, someone who has some rigidity of the muscles. But it can affect all sorts of different muscles, including some of those muscles in the upper airway.
So now take a man who is 84 years old, who's already had some difficulty breathing, who may have the flu as well on top of that, and then add this spasm of the upper airway because of the Parkinson's, all of these things start to add up in a big way. And maybe part of the reason, at least, that he could have a tracheotomy, like we're hearing so much about now.
PHILLIPS: And the tracheotomy just helps to clear the lungs. And explain what it does.
GUPTA: The tracheotomy really is to secure the airway. This is a really important point. Mission number one for any doctor, anybody in a hospital, is to make sure the patient has an airway. You can see the diagram there. That's obviously a head from the side-view. The mouth is up above. Typically a tube would go from the mouth into the airway. That is called an endotrachial tube.
In this situation, an operation is actually performed, and an incision is made in the neck. A tube is actually then placed directly into the trachea. And that's where it gets its name, a tracheotomy. Again, this is an operation, it's done to secure the airway because he's having trouble breathing. They might actually hook that up to a ventilator and provide breaths for the pope if this procedure is in fact being done.
It will also make it easier for his lungs to be cleaned if he's developing anything like a pneumonia, for example.
PHILLIPS: If, indeed, he does undergo this surgery, what is life like after a tracheotomy?
GUPTA: That's a good question. Because people consider it an invasive procedure, and it is. He won't be able to speak while he has the tracheotomy in place. And once that tracheotomy comes out, it will take some time for the wound to heal over. But if everything goes as planned, the tracheotomy is successful and he recovers from this infection or this pneumonia or the flu, whatever it is that he has specifically, he should do very well.
That's barring his advanced age and his Parkinson's. Most people after this procedure do well. In his case, it's a little bit more difficult, Kyra, again, because of all these other medical problems and his age.
We talk about the flu so much, you and I. We say that 36,000 people, maybe more than that, die of the flu every year. Who are those people? They're typically not healthy people, they're people like the pope, of advanced age and of existing medical problems. So it's to be considered seriously.
PHILLIPS: Do we know if the -- and I'm thinking about this off the top of my head, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but do we know if the pope got a flu shot?
GUPTA: We do know, and he did get a flu shot. We checked into that, actually. And I always say to people, it's not a reason to say, don't get your flu shot because the pope may have still gotten the flu despite the flu shot, but he did get one, and he is exactly the right sort of person to get one, an elderly person with existing medical problems.
PHILLIPS: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, stay with us. We want to go back to Jim Bittermann, who is just outside of Gemelli Hospital where the pope is.
Jim, bring us up to date on what the scene is like there outside the hospital, what you know. Have you been able to gain any more information on the pope, his condition and if indeed he'll undergo surgery in a couple hours?
OK. We're going to get hooked up with our Jim Bittermann, once again, outside of Gemelli Hospital. If you are just tuning in, we are getting word, Italian media is reporting that doctors may soon operate on Pope John Paul II.
Just to give you a little background, you'll remember February 1st, the pope checked into the hospital. He was having respiratory problems due to the flu. He was in the hospital nine days. He was released about 13 days ago. So he really hasn't been out for a while. However, when he was released, he did make a couple public appearances, you'll even remember here from his hospital window. It's incredible.
And Sanjay, maybe, you know, we can talk about this from a medical standpoint. When you look at everything he's been through, it's just incredible how he gathers up the energy to continue to address, you know, all the people that love him and have shown support for him. I even -- I don't know if you remember the story of the little boy with cancer that came into his room? GUPTA: Right.
PHILLIPS: And he said, pope, can you make me better? And he said, hey, you know, we're going to try and make all of us better. I mean, he's just incredible, his spirit through all of this.
GUPTA: And it is. It is an enormous thing to admire. A lot of doctors probably would have told him, and I'm sure doctors did tell him, to take it easy. There's a very good chance -- while it's not uncommon for someone to have a relapse of these sorts of symptoms, a lot of doctors would have advised him to sort of take it easy. He's probably not fully recovered still from his first hospitalization. And now he's back in the hospital for the second time in less than a month.
It's difficult. You know, when you have a man like the pope who is so engaging and wants to be out there, trying to keep a busy public schedule, all these sorts of things. If I were his doctor, and I'm sure a lot of the doctors that do take care of him would have said, listen, the next couple weeks, you really -- it's bed rest, it's fluids, it's all the things that our mothers told us in terms of trying to stay healthy. That's how you beat the flu, even if you are 84 years old and the pope.
PHILLIPS: And knowing the pope, he's probably saying my people need me. You can tell me whatever you want, but this is what I'm going to do. I mean, just, you know, going back and remembering everything that he's gone through. And I want to ask you from a medical perspective, I mean, you know, in addition to suffering from Parkinson's, he's had a number of chronic diseases, including the crippling hip and knee ailments. He underwent nine operations.
GUPTA: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Including the hip replacement. And he also, you know, we can't forget that he survived that assassination attempt.
GUPTA: Shot, yes.
PHILLIPS: Exactly. And now here he is with the flu and the respiratory. I mean, it's absolutely incredible at 84 years old -- I mean, it has something to say, definitely, I think about the spiritual side of his life.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean, you know, there's no question. He's had more medical conditions than you think a lot of people would have and still live to be 84. He's survived cancer. He's survived an assassination attempt. He's had body parts replaced. And now he's had Parkinson's Disease. Most recently, two hospitalizations in the last month. It's a lot. And add to the fact that he's 84 years old. You know, spirituality aside, he certainly is different than other people in the sense that he also gets some of the best medical care probably in the world.
Within the Vatican itself, it's worth pointing out that some of the medical facilities there are really remarkable, which is why when they take him to the hospital, it sort of gets all of our antennas up. Why are they taking him from the Vatican to the hospital unless it's something a little bit more serious? And as soon as we hear that, we say, well, he may be having troubles with his breathing. He may have significant infection, something that can't typically be taken care of in the Vatican. And you know, they have good medical facilities there.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's interesting what you say about the medical facilities. I want to talk about that, I'm going to make a note so I remember to ask you about the medical care there in Rome. Meanwhile, I understand now we have Jim Bittermann live in front of the camera just outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, have you learned anything else about this surgery that may take place in a couple of hours?
BITTERMANN: Not really. And, in fact, all we're hearing is that this is an Italian media reports, that there could be surgery, and the Vatican press office is not saying one way or the other. They're saying it's plausible. And as Dr. Gupta was pointing out, it's the kind that one might expect in this kind of condition, but they're not confirming or denying it. And I think probably we won't hear anything until after it's already taken place if, indeed, it is going to take place. This is the kind of thing that they probably wouldn't want to say anything about until they were absolutely sure that things had turned out the way they were wanting them to.
As you pointed out before, Kyra, in fact, it is very tight control over all information coming out of the hospital here. The last time the pope was here at Gemelli, in fact, the hospital authorities were not permitted to issue any kind of medical bulletins on their own. It was the Vatican that cleared everything and basically wrote all the kinds of statements that we did get about the pope's medical condition. Something is being tightly controlled by the Vatican.
But the point that Dr. Gupta just made, I think, is a very important one, and that's what is why -- and that's what certainly gets us all curious is why, in fact, did they take the pope from the Vatican this morning and bring him here once again? Because after all, the Vatican does have a fairly well-equipped clinic. It's gotten better equipped over the years because of the pope's various ailments. So the question is why do they feel it necessary to bring the pope here?
This is of course is a great hospital, a teaching hospital, a huge hospital that has everything you could want in the way of a hospital. But as Dr. Gupta might be able to say more about, the fact is, when you bring a patient to a hospital, you're exposing the person to a whole new environment in which there might be, for instance, some penicillin-resistant bacteria and other things that might cause other infections. So it is kind of a risky thing, bringing someone into this kind of environment if it's not absolutely necessary. And in the pope's case, it does raise that question because there is this clinic within the Vatican that's pretty well-equipped -- Kyra. PHILLIPS: Our Jim Bittermann outside of Gemelli hospital. Ask you to stand by. We also have our Dr. Sanjay Gupta here on set here in Atlanta with us. Now we want to take you to Rome and Delia Gallagher. She's in our Rome bureau.
Let's just start with what you know, if you've had a chance to talk with anybody close to the pope, Delia, and any information you can add to what we know so far, and that's possible reports that the Pope John Paul II may be going into surgery in the next couple of hours?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't have any confirmation of that for you, Kyra. That is reported by the Italian press as a possibility. And, of course, one has to take it into consideration that a tracheotomy might be something that an 84-year- old man with breathing difficulties might become subject to. But Vatican sources are telling us they're cautiously alarmed about this. You know, two weeks ago they saw something similar. But there was even more of a sense of an urgency two weeks ago. Today, we saw that he had problems last night and this morning only they took him into the hospital. So that suggests that it's something slightly more routine, but we don't have any confirmation yet about whether he will be going in for an operation -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia, a bit of a personal question, since you have covered the Vatican, you've covered the life of the pope for such a long time. Dr. Sanjay Gupta was saying, you know, as his doctor, I would tell him to slow down and not do so much. Yet it's amazing how Pope John Paul II just continues to fight back and make public appearances and meet with those who are showing so much support for him. On a personal level, tell us about his spirit and his strength and the fact that he doesn't want to let any of his medical issues get in the way of leading his flock.
GALLAGHER: Well, that's absolutely right, Kyra. Something that you see very close up when you watch the pope, that even though his power of speech is somewhat lessened now, he still manages to keep his aides to the side. He likes to control things on his own. In fact, last time when he was sent to the hospital, he was sent there. He didn't really want to go.
So this is a man who still has great willpower and a desire to continue and nobody can tell him what to do. So all of this discussion about the pope resigning is something that, in the last analysis, has to be left up to the pope. And this is a pope who, as you say, has a very strong will. So we've seen him go into the hospital before. We may see him come out again and continue his service in the way he's done in the past 26 years -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And even when he checked in the hospital on February 1st, Delia, I remember Alessio Vinci telling us about the young boy with cancer that made his way into the pope's hospital room and had a conversation with him. Can you recap that story for us? Do you remember that? OK.
GALLAGHER: Yes, absolutely, because you see, on the tenth floor of the hospital where the pope is, he has his private quarters, but there is also the pediatric oncology unit. So every time he's been there before he's always gone in and said hello to the kids when he's leaving. This time a little boy kept asking his personal secretary, well, is he there really? Is the pope next door to us? And so the person, the private secretary said, well, come with me, and he took him in to meet the pope.
So that was another sign of how this pope really wants to continue that contact because he thinks that this is his moment. Of course, he's in pain and suffering and so on. But that is, in some way, a symbol of what his whole papacy has been about, this human suffering. So he doesn't mind continuing to show that face on the world stage -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia Gallagher, I'm going to ask you to stand by. And once again, you're watching rolling, breaking news coverage here from the CNN Center in Atlanta. We want to welcome our international viewers now. If you are just tuning in, we want to let you know that Italian media right now reporting that doctors may operate on Pope John Paul II in the next few hours. We can tell you that today he did go back into the hospital after being released from the hospital 13 days ago. He is back in, once again with respiratory problems.
We are being told that doctors are considering a tracheotomy. We're going to talk more about that in a minute. We have Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, we also have our Jim Bittermann, who is outside of Gemelli Hospital. And once again, CNN Vatican correspondent, Delia Gallagher, there in the Rome bureau. We're covering all angles of this story right now.
Jim Bittermann, let's go straight to you outside of Gemelli Hospital and update both our domestic and international viewers right now on the condition of Pope John Paul II, what you know and what you may know about what Italian media is reporting right now about possible surgery.
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