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Pope May Have Tracheotomy
Aired February 24, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Jim Bittermann, let's go straight to you outside of Gemelli Hospital and update both our domestic and international viewers right now on the condition of Pope John Paul II, what you know and what you may know about what Italian media is reporting right now about possible surgery in the next few hours.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I wish we could say definitely, Kyra, exactly what is happening here.
What we know is that the pope was brought here about 10:45 this morning. That's about 10 hours ago. And he was not rushed here. The Vatican authorities say they took this decision to bring him here after his appearance yesterday at a papal audience. He wasn't really at the audience. It was more of a virtual audience. He was on a video link to pilgrims who had come to the Vatican for an audience.
After that occasion, in which he appeared pretty animated, they made a decision that they -- that he should overnight in the Vatican. And then, this morning, after checking his condition this morning around 10:45, they brought him here to Gemelli Hospital.
Again, now, he just left this hospital two weeks ago after a week-long stint here with a respiratory infection. And it appears that that is exactly what he's got again. They're saying that he has the flu, flu-like symptoms and complications. They've added complications to the description of his condition. And what we're hearing from the Italian media tonight is that either the doctors here are considering a tracheotomy, that they're considering an operation to open up a breathing passage in the pope's throat.
And the Vatican will not say one way or another whether that's really happening or not. They just say that it's plausible, meaning, I guess, that in case of someone the pope's age, given his condition and all the other problems that he has, that it's the kind of thing that doctors might consider.
So, there is no confirmation that there is an operation going on, but it very well could be at some point this evening -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: OK, Jim Bittermann, just outside of Gemelli Hospital, I'm going to you to stand by.
We want to welcome our international viewers now, in addition to our domestic viewers. We are following breaking news coverage about the condition of Pope John Paul II. We are getting word here at CNN that it's possible that the pope will be going into surgery in the next couple of hours, possibly undergoing a tracheotomy. Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta to talk more about that surgery, what it means, and what exactly the pope will endure if indeed he does have this surgery.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The mission No. 1 in the hospital when someone goes there with breathing difficulties is to secure the airway.
Now, typically, what is done in a situation like this is that a tube is actually placed from the mouth into the airway. And let me just show you. I got a little model here. And I want to sort of demonstrate, if I can here, quickly.
This is a model. And this is the mouth. The tube is actually placed in the mouth back into the airway. If that can't be done -- and I'll talk about why that might be in a second -- an incision is actually made in the neck and a tube is actually placed directly into the trachea. And that's where it gets its name. That's what a tracheotomy is.
Again, typically, when someone comes to the hospital, you assume that they're going to have the tube placed in the mouth as a first step. In this particular situation, his trachea may have been to inflamed. His Parkinson's disease, in addition to his upper airway spasm, may make it too difficult.
But, for whatever reason, we are hearing that a tracheotomy may be done later on today. I should point out that a tracheotomy, Kyra, isn't something that you sort of schedule electively. You don't say, I'm going to have a next week, for example. That's not what is typically done. If the decision is made to do this, it is typically something that's done with a sense of urgency.
You need to secure the airway. You need to secure it quickly. And that's why, if this is going to be done, it probably would be done soon.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about how risky the surgery may be. You're saying that the surgery is a general type of surgery. However, it's the anesthesia that can be dangerous.
And I have to pose the question and ask you the chances of surviving that type of surgery at 84 years old, as someone who is suffering from Parkinson's disease. What is the reality check?
GUPTA: Yes, you know, it is more than the anesthesia than it is the operation itself as far as what the risks are.
This is an important point. This type of operation itself won't probably take that long, probably no more than half an hour. It is an operation that is done in just about every hospital around the world. The biggest concern for the pope really is the anesthesia. And, again, he's 84 years old. He has Parkinson's and many other existing medical problems.
The question, how likely is it for him to survive this? The likelihood is good that he's going to survive this operation, but it really, more important to the point is, why is he having it done in the first place? What is the sense of urgency that has suddenly accelerated the timetable of securing his airway and possibly taking him to the operating room to do that.
That's what I'm more concerned about as a doctor in terms of the long run. I wasn't surprised that he went back to the hospital. A relapse for someone of 84 years of age is not uncommon. I am surprised now that they're talking about this tracheotomy, talking about an operation, probably going to be an extended hospital stay. He won't be able to speak during this period if he has a tracheotomy.
And this is a big step when it comes to taking care of patients like this.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, thank you so much. We are going to ask you to stand by and continue to ask Jim Bittermann just outside of Gemelli Hospital to stand by.
We want to go back to CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher live from our Rome bureau.
And, Delia, maybe you and I can talk about this latest illness and how it has, once again, reopened debate about whether a pope should retire, instead of reigning for life. We know that Pope John Paul II has come forward continuously and said he intends to carry out his mission until the very end.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's right, Kyra. And I think you have to understand that the pope's understanding of his role is not like a CEO in a company. It's not even like the president of a government. He sees it not as a job, but as a vocation. It's something which is divinely inspired, the pope thinks.
And he's sort of a father of this Catholic world family. And it's very interesting that, in his message for Lent this last week, he spoke pointedly to the fact that, in our society today, older people are thought to be useless, they're sort of discarded, and he considers this wrong.
So, he has very firmly said that he still has a mission to accomplish here. And I think, for those reasons, there is really not the possibility that he's going to resign. That being said, it is still open. He can do it. Some cardinals have even said, it's up to his conscience and we'll leave it up to him, but it doesn't seem likely, from all indicators, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And, Delia, just looking at what he's going through right now, in addition to suffering from Parkinson's disease, just to sort of recap what pope John Paul II has been through, a number of chronic diseases, including a bad hip, knee ailments.
Her's undergone nine operations since he's been pope, including a hip replacement, even surviving an assassination attempt. It seems that no, matter what Pope John Paul II goes through, this is someone that definitely does not believe in giving up and doesn't believe in not getting in front of the public and meeting with those who have been so supportive of him for so many years.
GALLAGHER: That's right.
It's interesting that in his book published yesterday, "Memory and Identity," he talks about this. He says, you know, I feel that, after everything I've been through, there is some kind of guiding hand in this whole pontificate for me, because really it's difficult to explain how he's able to keep coming back. I think part of that is explained by his own psychologist, his own makeup. He has a very strong mental will.
But something that is interesting about this tracheotomy -- and I think Dr. Gupta pointed that out -- what might happen to his voice afterwards? That is one of the few things he's got left. He's not able to move physically very well, so the concern would be for that last bit a voice that he has left and how that might be affected from a possible tracheotomy -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: You mentioned the pope's book being released yesterday. You talk about his mental will. This is somebody who talks a lot about suffering, too.
GALLAGHER: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, that's fundamental to his whole message. And I think that is one of the reasons why he doesn't hesitate to show himself in these kind of conditions. You know, he has tremendous rapport with people who are suffering. We see it here every week at the Vatican. People come in wheelchairs. People come who are handicapped and they find that real rapport with this suffering pope, who can continue.
And they say to us, well, if he can to it, I can do it, because he's got a very busy schedule. He's able to keep going. And I think, in some ways, that is the really inspiration of this pope at this pontificate.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and an inspiration indeed.
CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher, we're going to ask you to stand by.
If you're just tuning in, we want to once again welcome our international viewers, along with our domestic viewers, as you're watching breaking news coverage on Pope John Paul II, right now, a live picture of Gemelli Hospital, where the pope was readmitted today after suffering respiratory problems.
You'll remember that the pope went into the hospital back on February 1. He was in there for nine days, then released, looking healthy and happy as he headed back to the Vatican. Well, now, 13 days later, the pope, unfortunately, having respiratory problems again, back in the hospital.
Now we're getting word that it's possible that he will undergo a tracheotomy.
Outside of Gemelli Hospital, CNN's Jim Bittermann continuing to follow the goings-on outside of the hospital there.
Jim, have you learned anything new? And can you update our viewers on what we know?
BITTERMANN: Well, basically, I think what we know for sure is, the pope was brought here about 10 hours or so ago. He was brought here for the second time in the space of two weeks, after being released about two weeks ago, brought here with what the Vatican describes as a respiratory problem with complications, a relapse of the flu that he was suffering from earlier.
And now, of course, what we've been hearing and what we've been hearing from Italian media is that there a possibility that he will be taken into an operating room here for a tracheotomy. And that could happen at any time this evening.
There has been no confirmation from the Vatican. They won't say one way or the other, although a senior Vatican spokesman said that it's plausible, I guess suggesting that, in a case like the pope's, that is the kind of thing that might happen.
Just to pick up on something that Delia was saying, is the pope's message about suffering. I was here 24 years ago when the pope was elected -- 26 years ago, I guess, when the pope was elected. And one of the things that he has said throughout his pontificate is this whole message of suffering. In fact, 20 years ago, 1984, in a Vatican document, he wrote: "Human suffering evokes compassion. It also evokes respect. In its own way, it intimidates."
It's obviously that he's done a lot of thinking about. And as the pope's condition has deteriorated, it's something that he has continued to emphasize, is the sort of example that he's setting for people who may be suffering around the world. So when you suggest that he might retire, I think that he feels that his job is continuing -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Yes, to the very end. And he's repeatedly said that he intends to carry out his mission until the very end, Jim Bittermann.
Let's take a moment just to sort of -- I mean, this is an absolutely amazing man. We talked about the release of his book yesterday. He's made quite a number of achievements throughout his 26 years, as you mentioned, being the first pope to visit the White House, the first pope to visit a synagogue, first pope to visit Cuba.
I mean, he's so widely traveled. He's so diverse. And he's been very progressive in many ways, Jim, and on subject matter that's been controversial within the Catholic Church.
BITTERMANN: Progressive and I think some Catholics would probably say regressive as well, because I think there are some matters that the church has addressed under the pope's leadership that some people may have felt went backward from where the church was, but progressive in some other ways, too. I mean, one of the things the pope did that I save that in my memory is his whole role -- role during the Cold War, when he was supporting churches, Catholic Churches throughout the East Bloc very directly with Vatican resources, with money, with printing presses, with paper, helping lead the Eastern Bloc revolution against the communists.
And, so he had this huge historical role that I think sometimes gets forgotten. He's continued on stage, as it were, for the last 10 years or 12 to 14 years, since the end of communism. And, as a consequence, people sometimes forget about the huge role that he did play.
And certainly for Poles and Czechs and others in the Eastern Bloc, the pope was a great symbol. And without him, perhaps some of the things that they were able to achieve might not have been possible -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Not only a great symbol, but quite an intellectual, with a doctorate in philosophy and a doctorate in sacred theology.
Delia Gallagher -- Jim, stay with us.
But, Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, knows quite a bit about the pope's background as well.
I mean, this man born in Poland really knew his mission from the very beginning, from his education to what he started doing in his early years.
Is that right, Delia?
GALLAGHER: Well, absolutely.
You know, again, in this book that was published yesterday, it's really a philosophical tome. It's a sort of historical and philosophical analysis of evil, which is a big problem to tackle, and yet this pope doesn't shy away from it.
Regarding his progressiveness, you know, this pope is progressive and traditionalist. He's been traditional on a lot of issues concerning morality, for example, but he's progressive in a sort of inter-religious way. We remember, in 1986, he started the world Day of Prayer in Assisi. And this was controversial at the time because he invited Hindus, Muslims. He invited all of the world religions back in 1986 to come and pray with him.
And, of course, we see this in some ways prophetic, because now this is one of the big themes of this century, that -- getting these world religions together. Also, within the church, Christian churches, he's very keen to achieve unity, something he hasn't achieved just yet with the Orthodox Church, so he's still got a few things that he wants to work on -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia Gallagher there live in our Rome bureau. And, once again, we want to welcome our international and domestic viewers as we continue our breaking news coverage on the condition of Pope John Paul II. What we can tell you right now is that a Vatican official has said it is very probable that the pope, John Paul II, will undergo an operation.
Italian news agencies are reporting that that operation could be a tracheotomy. This is something that is supposed to happen within the next couple of hours. You'll remember that the pope's condition started to get -- started to get pretty bad at the end of January.
And February 1, he went into Gemelli Hospital with respiratory problems due to the flu. He spent nine days there. He's been released for 13 days. Now he's back in the hospital. Today, he started having more complications.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta here with us in Atlanta.
You pointed out that the fact that if, indeed, he is going to undergo a tracheotomy, that that is something that is decided on pretty much an emergency basis.
GUPTA: Yes. It's certainly not an elective type of operation.
The biggest concern of doctors in a hospital, any hospital, is to secure an airway. And here you have an 84-year-old man who has come in. The diagnosis is difficulty with his breathing. Getting that airway secured is goal No. 1.
Now, typically, again, what they try to do is put a tube from the mouth into the airway. If that can't be done -- and we don't know the details about this right now -- but if that can't be done, then a tracheotomy is sort of option No. 2, again, putting an incision in the neck and putting that airway directly into the neck and then into the trachea.
So, it's not an elective thing, urgent, I would say, at a minimum, emergent in several situations as well.
PHILLIPS: All right. If this surgery takes place, let's talk about his mental condition, how this will affect his communication, his speech, his everyday living.
GUPTA: Excellent point.
With this operating, the biggest concern really is not so much the operation itself, but, rather, the anesthesia. So, here is what we can tell from most operations that are done like this. He will probably be under general anesthesia. During that time, obviously, he will be asleep and then take a fair amount of time to probably rewake up and regain all of his mental faculties.
If the operation goes well -- and what I mean by that is that he has no periods where there is not enough oxygenated blood getting to the brain -- he should be able to regain all of his mental faculties just fine after the operation. As far as communication goes, that's going to be a different story.
We've been watching a lot of these -- him giving talks and being able to talk to people, even after his last hospitalization. He will not be able to do that if and when the tracheotomy is done. That is going to bar him from being able to talk, not bar him from being able to communicate, though. He should still be able to write, for example, although that is difficult because of his tremor and the Parkinson's disease.
So, this is certainly a significant step for him. Again, an incision in the neck, an airway being placed in there, but lots of things change in his care because of this.
PHILLIPS: We have Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, Georgia. We have Delia Gallagher from our Rome bureau. Jim Bittermann is outside the hospital, Gemelli Hospital, where Pope John Paul II is right now.
We also have "National Catholic Reporter" John Allen on the phone from New York City. He actually came here to the states, but now is on his way headed back, so he can cover this story with regard to the pope's condition.
John, we've been talking a lot about the health of the pope and everything that he has been through, all the way back to the assassination attempts. We've been talking about the surgery he's expected to undergo here at Gemelli Hospital, possibly in the next couple of hours.
And we've been talking just about his life, things that he's accomplished, even very, I guess you could say controversial things that he's had to deal with also as the pope, specifically what's been happening in the Catholic Church with regard to the -- some of the scandals that have taken place.
Let's talk a little bit about -- this is someone who definitely doesn't feel his mission is over, someone who wants to carry out his mission until the very end.
Knowing what you know about the pope, he's probably thinking, I've got to get this taken care of and get out, because I've got things I've got to do. I'm not finished yet.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes. That's exactly right.
I'm sure that what's going on in the pope's mind (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is that he wants to get back to work. And, actually, it may well be that part of the ingredients of this relapse were the fact that he attempted to resume at least something resembling his normal schedule well ahead of what I'm sure his physicians would have wanted him to.
Yesterday, he was meeting with the prime minister of Croatia. Tomorrow, he was supposed to be receiving the tourism ministers of Israel and Palestine to talk about Christian pilgrims going back to the holy land, etcetera, etcetera. And this is a pope who is determined to continue. And I think part of that is just a basic kind of biographical stubbornness. There is just a rock-solid insistence on doing one's duty. But the other element there is, this is a pope who believes that his pontificate is part of a kind of broader divine plan.
Let's not forget that John Paul is firmly convicted that, on May 13, 1981 -- that was the date of the assassination attempt -- that the Virgin Mary changed the flight path of a bullet in order to preserve him in office. And given that, I think he believes it is simply not up to him to decide when to quit.
PHILLIPS: And this is definitely someone that has said human suffering evokes compassion. You talk about probably one of the most compassionate men of our time right now.
ALLEN: Yes.
I think there is no question that, at a spiritual level, that the pope's weakness and his sickness and his suffering is a powerful, powerful bit of symbolism for a wide range of people. I was with him in Lourdes in France, which is Christianity's premier healing shrine in a vast crowd of sickening and suffering people. And there was a deep emotional resonance.
Now, on the other hand, many Catholics would argue that the pope's weakened condition also creates lots of managerial and administrative problems and the church is going to have to increasingly confront that, so, a powerful spiritual symbol, but someone whose managerial capacities obviously are in decline.
PHILLIPS: John Allen, point well made. John Allen is actually in New York. He's the "National Catholic Reporter" usually covering the Vatican and the pope for us out of Rome. He's desperately trying to get on a plane to head back that way.
John, we're going to continue to check in with you. Thank you so much.
We also have Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, in our Rome bureau, also Jim Bittermann just outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, we're looking actually at pictures of the pope right now when he was first checked in. And I believe this was possibly on the Sunday where he read his weekly address to the faithful from the window of his Vatican apartment. I believe that's this video. This is someone that, even in the hospital and shortly released, was just not going to stop doing what he believes he should be doing right now.
BITTERMANN: Well, we understand, in fact, when he came to the hospital today, he was actually blessing and giving the sign of the cross to people as he was coming in the door.
No confirmation of that. And there are no pictures of him arriving, as far as I know, at the hospital today. So, yes, I think the pope feels its his role to set this example. You know, you were talking earlier and it's kind of interesting when you look back a bit, talking earlier about how the pope was sort of meant for this role.
I've been to the pope's hometown in Wadowice, Poland, and it's a gritty, dirty little town, probably been cleaned up today. But back in the days of Eastern Europe, with a lot of soot in the air, it must not have been a very healthy place to grow up, a town of about 80,000, heavily industrial. And when the pope was only about 19 years old, the Nazis stormed into town and took over that part of Poland.
So, he grew up under the Nazis. He then grew under the communists. When the war was over, it was all under communist control. And yet, despite all the things that were going on around him, he had this -- he was able to come to this language ability. He had this philosophical bent. And he had an acting tradition, all three sort of kinds of characteristics which would later serve him very well when he became the pope.
And it's amazing to sort of see that someone from such a very impoverished background could rise above it all and have exactly the right qualities for a modern pope in a very electronic age -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: So well said, Jim Bittermann, outside of Gemelli Hospital right now, as he continues to monitor Pope John Paul II's condition.
As he remains there in the hospital, we're being told that possibly the pope will undergo surgery for specifically a tracheotomy to help with his respiratory problems that he's been having for the past few weeks.
Delia Gallagher, our Vatican analyst, live from the Rome bureau now.
Maybe you can sort of pick up where Jim left off, talking just about the pope's background, coming from poverty.
GALLAGHER: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Continuing this mission, Delia, of human suffering, evoking compassion, exactly what he believes in. I mean, this is just somebody that doesn't give up, considering everything that he's been through. And if you look at all the surgeries he's been through, the nine operations, the assassination attempt, this is someone with absolutely incredible mental will and an incredible spiritual state of mind.
GALLAGHER: Well, there is another element there. And that is his physical state of health.
You know, the pope, from a young age, was a very physical sportsman, rowing, mountain climbing, skiing. He did all of that, in addition to his academic work, in addition to writing poetry, in addition to being a preach and a bishop and an archbishop.
So, I think that that early training in the physical sports and all that he continued to do throughout there in the years of his pontificate stood him in good stead for these later difficult years. And that's something that we don't often talk about, but this was a very, very healthy and active pope. And that's probably one of the reasons why now to see him in this state...
PHILLIPS: All right, I apologize for that. We've lost the audio of Delia Gallagher there, the CNN Vatican analyst in the Rome bureau. We will try and get her hooked back up again and talk with her.
But just to recap what has taken place to this point within the past hour, you're looking at live pictures right now outside of Gemelli Hospital in Rome, not far from the Vatican at all, where we're told that Pope John Paul II is at this moment.
Just to give you a little background, you will remember, when the pope was not feeling well in the month of January and February 1, he checked in here to Gemelli Hospital because of respiratory problems that he was having due to the flu. And then he was in there for nine days. He's now been out for 13, but, today, was having more respiratory problems and he was rushed back to the hospital.
And now we are being told that, possibly in the next couple of hours, Pope John Paul II will undergo a tracheotomy. We will continue our breaking news coverage on the condition of Pope John Paul II right after a quick break.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Once again, we want to welcome our international and domestic viewers to the breaking news coverage out of CNN Center here in Atlanta.
We're following the condition of Pope John Paul II. He has been readmitted to the hospital there, Gemelli Hospital, not far from the Vatican. We are told, in a couple hours, he may undergo surgery, that surgery is a possible tracheotomy.
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Aired February 24, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Jim Bittermann, let's go straight to you outside of Gemelli Hospital and update both our domestic and international viewers right now on the condition of Pope John Paul II, what you know and what you may know about what Italian media is reporting right now about possible surgery in the next few hours.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I wish we could say definitely, Kyra, exactly what is happening here.
What we know is that the pope was brought here about 10:45 this morning. That's about 10 hours ago. And he was not rushed here. The Vatican authorities say they took this decision to bring him here after his appearance yesterday at a papal audience. He wasn't really at the audience. It was more of a virtual audience. He was on a video link to pilgrims who had come to the Vatican for an audience.
After that occasion, in which he appeared pretty animated, they made a decision that they -- that he should overnight in the Vatican. And then, this morning, after checking his condition this morning around 10:45, they brought him here to Gemelli Hospital.
Again, now, he just left this hospital two weeks ago after a week-long stint here with a respiratory infection. And it appears that that is exactly what he's got again. They're saying that he has the flu, flu-like symptoms and complications. They've added complications to the description of his condition. And what we're hearing from the Italian media tonight is that either the doctors here are considering a tracheotomy, that they're considering an operation to open up a breathing passage in the pope's throat.
And the Vatican will not say one way or another whether that's really happening or not. They just say that it's plausible, meaning, I guess, that in case of someone the pope's age, given his condition and all the other problems that he has, that it's the kind of thing that doctors might consider.
So, there is no confirmation that there is an operation going on, but it very well could be at some point this evening -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: OK, Jim Bittermann, just outside of Gemelli Hospital, I'm going to you to stand by.
We want to welcome our international viewers now, in addition to our domestic viewers. We are following breaking news coverage about the condition of Pope John Paul II. We are getting word here at CNN that it's possible that the pope will be going into surgery in the next couple of hours, possibly undergoing a tracheotomy. Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta to talk more about that surgery, what it means, and what exactly the pope will endure if indeed he does have this surgery.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The mission No. 1 in the hospital when someone goes there with breathing difficulties is to secure the airway.
Now, typically, what is done in a situation like this is that a tube is actually placed from the mouth into the airway. And let me just show you. I got a little model here. And I want to sort of demonstrate, if I can here, quickly.
This is a model. And this is the mouth. The tube is actually placed in the mouth back into the airway. If that can't be done -- and I'll talk about why that might be in a second -- an incision is actually made in the neck and a tube is actually placed directly into the trachea. And that's where it gets its name. That's what a tracheotomy is.
Again, typically, when someone comes to the hospital, you assume that they're going to have the tube placed in the mouth as a first step. In this particular situation, his trachea may have been to inflamed. His Parkinson's disease, in addition to his upper airway spasm, may make it too difficult.
But, for whatever reason, we are hearing that a tracheotomy may be done later on today. I should point out that a tracheotomy, Kyra, isn't something that you sort of schedule electively. You don't say, I'm going to have a next week, for example. That's not what is typically done. If the decision is made to do this, it is typically something that's done with a sense of urgency.
You need to secure the airway. You need to secure it quickly. And that's why, if this is going to be done, it probably would be done soon.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about how risky the surgery may be. You're saying that the surgery is a general type of surgery. However, it's the anesthesia that can be dangerous.
And I have to pose the question and ask you the chances of surviving that type of surgery at 84 years old, as someone who is suffering from Parkinson's disease. What is the reality check?
GUPTA: Yes, you know, it is more than the anesthesia than it is the operation itself as far as what the risks are.
This is an important point. This type of operation itself won't probably take that long, probably no more than half an hour. It is an operation that is done in just about every hospital around the world. The biggest concern for the pope really is the anesthesia. And, again, he's 84 years old. He has Parkinson's and many other existing medical problems.
The question, how likely is it for him to survive this? The likelihood is good that he's going to survive this operation, but it really, more important to the point is, why is he having it done in the first place? What is the sense of urgency that has suddenly accelerated the timetable of securing his airway and possibly taking him to the operating room to do that.
That's what I'm more concerned about as a doctor in terms of the long run. I wasn't surprised that he went back to the hospital. A relapse for someone of 84 years of age is not uncommon. I am surprised now that they're talking about this tracheotomy, talking about an operation, probably going to be an extended hospital stay. He won't be able to speak during this period if he has a tracheotomy.
And this is a big step when it comes to taking care of patients like this.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, thank you so much. We are going to ask you to stand by and continue to ask Jim Bittermann just outside of Gemelli Hospital to stand by.
We want to go back to CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher live from our Rome bureau.
And, Delia, maybe you and I can talk about this latest illness and how it has, once again, reopened debate about whether a pope should retire, instead of reigning for life. We know that Pope John Paul II has come forward continuously and said he intends to carry out his mission until the very end.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's right, Kyra. And I think you have to understand that the pope's understanding of his role is not like a CEO in a company. It's not even like the president of a government. He sees it not as a job, but as a vocation. It's something which is divinely inspired, the pope thinks.
And he's sort of a father of this Catholic world family. And it's very interesting that, in his message for Lent this last week, he spoke pointedly to the fact that, in our society today, older people are thought to be useless, they're sort of discarded, and he considers this wrong.
So, he has very firmly said that he still has a mission to accomplish here. And I think, for those reasons, there is really not the possibility that he's going to resign. That being said, it is still open. He can do it. Some cardinals have even said, it's up to his conscience and we'll leave it up to him, but it doesn't seem likely, from all indicators, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And, Delia, just looking at what he's going through right now, in addition to suffering from Parkinson's disease, just to sort of recap what pope John Paul II has been through, a number of chronic diseases, including a bad hip, knee ailments.
Her's undergone nine operations since he's been pope, including a hip replacement, even surviving an assassination attempt. It seems that no, matter what Pope John Paul II goes through, this is someone that definitely does not believe in giving up and doesn't believe in not getting in front of the public and meeting with those who have been so supportive of him for so many years.
GALLAGHER: That's right.
It's interesting that in his book published yesterday, "Memory and Identity," he talks about this. He says, you know, I feel that, after everything I've been through, there is some kind of guiding hand in this whole pontificate for me, because really it's difficult to explain how he's able to keep coming back. I think part of that is explained by his own psychologist, his own makeup. He has a very strong mental will.
But something that is interesting about this tracheotomy -- and I think Dr. Gupta pointed that out -- what might happen to his voice afterwards? That is one of the few things he's got left. He's not able to move physically very well, so the concern would be for that last bit a voice that he has left and how that might be affected from a possible tracheotomy -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: You mentioned the pope's book being released yesterday. You talk about his mental will. This is somebody who talks a lot about suffering, too.
GALLAGHER: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, that's fundamental to his whole message. And I think that is one of the reasons why he doesn't hesitate to show himself in these kind of conditions. You know, he has tremendous rapport with people who are suffering. We see it here every week at the Vatican. People come in wheelchairs. People come who are handicapped and they find that real rapport with this suffering pope, who can continue.
And they say to us, well, if he can to it, I can do it, because he's got a very busy schedule. He's able to keep going. And I think, in some ways, that is the really inspiration of this pope at this pontificate.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and an inspiration indeed.
CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher, we're going to ask you to stand by.
If you're just tuning in, we want to once again welcome our international viewers, along with our domestic viewers, as you're watching breaking news coverage on Pope John Paul II, right now, a live picture of Gemelli Hospital, where the pope was readmitted today after suffering respiratory problems.
You'll remember that the pope went into the hospital back on February 1. He was in there for nine days, then released, looking healthy and happy as he headed back to the Vatican. Well, now, 13 days later, the pope, unfortunately, having respiratory problems again, back in the hospital.
Now we're getting word that it's possible that he will undergo a tracheotomy.
Outside of Gemelli Hospital, CNN's Jim Bittermann continuing to follow the goings-on outside of the hospital there.
Jim, have you learned anything new? And can you update our viewers on what we know?
BITTERMANN: Well, basically, I think what we know for sure is, the pope was brought here about 10 hours or so ago. He was brought here for the second time in the space of two weeks, after being released about two weeks ago, brought here with what the Vatican describes as a respiratory problem with complications, a relapse of the flu that he was suffering from earlier.
And now, of course, what we've been hearing and what we've been hearing from Italian media is that there a possibility that he will be taken into an operating room here for a tracheotomy. And that could happen at any time this evening.
There has been no confirmation from the Vatican. They won't say one way or the other, although a senior Vatican spokesman said that it's plausible, I guess suggesting that, in a case like the pope's, that is the kind of thing that might happen.
Just to pick up on something that Delia was saying, is the pope's message about suffering. I was here 24 years ago when the pope was elected -- 26 years ago, I guess, when the pope was elected. And one of the things that he has said throughout his pontificate is this whole message of suffering. In fact, 20 years ago, 1984, in a Vatican document, he wrote: "Human suffering evokes compassion. It also evokes respect. In its own way, it intimidates."
It's obviously that he's done a lot of thinking about. And as the pope's condition has deteriorated, it's something that he has continued to emphasize, is the sort of example that he's setting for people who may be suffering around the world. So when you suggest that he might retire, I think that he feels that his job is continuing -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Yes, to the very end. And he's repeatedly said that he intends to carry out his mission until the very end, Jim Bittermann.
Let's take a moment just to sort of -- I mean, this is an absolutely amazing man. We talked about the release of his book yesterday. He's made quite a number of achievements throughout his 26 years, as you mentioned, being the first pope to visit the White House, the first pope to visit a synagogue, first pope to visit Cuba.
I mean, he's so widely traveled. He's so diverse. And he's been very progressive in many ways, Jim, and on subject matter that's been controversial within the Catholic Church.
BITTERMANN: Progressive and I think some Catholics would probably say regressive as well, because I think there are some matters that the church has addressed under the pope's leadership that some people may have felt went backward from where the church was, but progressive in some other ways, too. I mean, one of the things the pope did that I save that in my memory is his whole role -- role during the Cold War, when he was supporting churches, Catholic Churches throughout the East Bloc very directly with Vatican resources, with money, with printing presses, with paper, helping lead the Eastern Bloc revolution against the communists.
And, so he had this huge historical role that I think sometimes gets forgotten. He's continued on stage, as it were, for the last 10 years or 12 to 14 years, since the end of communism. And, as a consequence, people sometimes forget about the huge role that he did play.
And certainly for Poles and Czechs and others in the Eastern Bloc, the pope was a great symbol. And without him, perhaps some of the things that they were able to achieve might not have been possible -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Not only a great symbol, but quite an intellectual, with a doctorate in philosophy and a doctorate in sacred theology.
Delia Gallagher -- Jim, stay with us.
But, Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, knows quite a bit about the pope's background as well.
I mean, this man born in Poland really knew his mission from the very beginning, from his education to what he started doing in his early years.
Is that right, Delia?
GALLAGHER: Well, absolutely.
You know, again, in this book that was published yesterday, it's really a philosophical tome. It's a sort of historical and philosophical analysis of evil, which is a big problem to tackle, and yet this pope doesn't shy away from it.
Regarding his progressiveness, you know, this pope is progressive and traditionalist. He's been traditional on a lot of issues concerning morality, for example, but he's progressive in a sort of inter-religious way. We remember, in 1986, he started the world Day of Prayer in Assisi. And this was controversial at the time because he invited Hindus, Muslims. He invited all of the world religions back in 1986 to come and pray with him.
And, of course, we see this in some ways prophetic, because now this is one of the big themes of this century, that -- getting these world religions together. Also, within the church, Christian churches, he's very keen to achieve unity, something he hasn't achieved just yet with the Orthodox Church, so he's still got a few things that he wants to work on -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Delia Gallagher there live in our Rome bureau. And, once again, we want to welcome our international and domestic viewers as we continue our breaking news coverage on the condition of Pope John Paul II. What we can tell you right now is that a Vatican official has said it is very probable that the pope, John Paul II, will undergo an operation.
Italian news agencies are reporting that that operation could be a tracheotomy. This is something that is supposed to happen within the next couple of hours. You'll remember that the pope's condition started to get -- started to get pretty bad at the end of January.
And February 1, he went into Gemelli Hospital with respiratory problems due to the flu. He spent nine days there. He's been released for 13 days. Now he's back in the hospital. Today, he started having more complications.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta here with us in Atlanta.
You pointed out that the fact that if, indeed, he is going to undergo a tracheotomy, that that is something that is decided on pretty much an emergency basis.
GUPTA: Yes. It's certainly not an elective type of operation.
The biggest concern of doctors in a hospital, any hospital, is to secure an airway. And here you have an 84-year-old man who has come in. The diagnosis is difficulty with his breathing. Getting that airway secured is goal No. 1.
Now, typically, again, what they try to do is put a tube from the mouth into the airway. If that can't be done -- and we don't know the details about this right now -- but if that can't be done, then a tracheotomy is sort of option No. 2, again, putting an incision in the neck and putting that airway directly into the neck and then into the trachea.
So, it's not an elective thing, urgent, I would say, at a minimum, emergent in several situations as well.
PHILLIPS: All right. If this surgery takes place, let's talk about his mental condition, how this will affect his communication, his speech, his everyday living.
GUPTA: Excellent point.
With this operating, the biggest concern really is not so much the operation itself, but, rather, the anesthesia. So, here is what we can tell from most operations that are done like this. He will probably be under general anesthesia. During that time, obviously, he will be asleep and then take a fair amount of time to probably rewake up and regain all of his mental faculties.
If the operation goes well -- and what I mean by that is that he has no periods where there is not enough oxygenated blood getting to the brain -- he should be able to regain all of his mental faculties just fine after the operation. As far as communication goes, that's going to be a different story.
We've been watching a lot of these -- him giving talks and being able to talk to people, even after his last hospitalization. He will not be able to do that if and when the tracheotomy is done. That is going to bar him from being able to talk, not bar him from being able to communicate, though. He should still be able to write, for example, although that is difficult because of his tremor and the Parkinson's disease.
So, this is certainly a significant step for him. Again, an incision in the neck, an airway being placed in there, but lots of things change in his care because of this.
PHILLIPS: We have Dr. Sanjay Gupta here in Atlanta, Georgia. We have Delia Gallagher from our Rome bureau. Jim Bittermann is outside the hospital, Gemelli Hospital, where Pope John Paul II is right now.
We also have "National Catholic Reporter" John Allen on the phone from New York City. He actually came here to the states, but now is on his way headed back, so he can cover this story with regard to the pope's condition.
John, we've been talking a lot about the health of the pope and everything that he has been through, all the way back to the assassination attempts. We've been talking about the surgery he's expected to undergo here at Gemelli Hospital, possibly in the next couple of hours.
And we've been talking just about his life, things that he's accomplished, even very, I guess you could say controversial things that he's had to deal with also as the pope, specifically what's been happening in the Catholic Church with regard to the -- some of the scandals that have taken place.
Let's talk a little bit about -- this is someone who definitely doesn't feel his mission is over, someone who wants to carry out his mission until the very end.
Knowing what you know about the pope, he's probably thinking, I've got to get this taken care of and get out, because I've got things I've got to do. I'm not finished yet.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes. That's exactly right.
I'm sure that what's going on in the pope's mind (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is that he wants to get back to work. And, actually, it may well be that part of the ingredients of this relapse were the fact that he attempted to resume at least something resembling his normal schedule well ahead of what I'm sure his physicians would have wanted him to.
Yesterday, he was meeting with the prime minister of Croatia. Tomorrow, he was supposed to be receiving the tourism ministers of Israel and Palestine to talk about Christian pilgrims going back to the holy land, etcetera, etcetera. And this is a pope who is determined to continue. And I think part of that is just a basic kind of biographical stubbornness. There is just a rock-solid insistence on doing one's duty. But the other element there is, this is a pope who believes that his pontificate is part of a kind of broader divine plan.
Let's not forget that John Paul is firmly convicted that, on May 13, 1981 -- that was the date of the assassination attempt -- that the Virgin Mary changed the flight path of a bullet in order to preserve him in office. And given that, I think he believes it is simply not up to him to decide when to quit.
PHILLIPS: And this is definitely someone that has said human suffering evokes compassion. You talk about probably one of the most compassionate men of our time right now.
ALLEN: Yes.
I think there is no question that, at a spiritual level, that the pope's weakness and his sickness and his suffering is a powerful, powerful bit of symbolism for a wide range of people. I was with him in Lourdes in France, which is Christianity's premier healing shrine in a vast crowd of sickening and suffering people. And there was a deep emotional resonance.
Now, on the other hand, many Catholics would argue that the pope's weakened condition also creates lots of managerial and administrative problems and the church is going to have to increasingly confront that, so, a powerful spiritual symbol, but someone whose managerial capacities obviously are in decline.
PHILLIPS: John Allen, point well made. John Allen is actually in New York. He's the "National Catholic Reporter" usually covering the Vatican and the pope for us out of Rome. He's desperately trying to get on a plane to head back that way.
John, we're going to continue to check in with you. Thank you so much.
We also have Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, in our Rome bureau, also Jim Bittermann just outside of Gemelli Hospital.
Jim, we're looking actually at pictures of the pope right now when he was first checked in. And I believe this was possibly on the Sunday where he read his weekly address to the faithful from the window of his Vatican apartment. I believe that's this video. This is someone that, even in the hospital and shortly released, was just not going to stop doing what he believes he should be doing right now.
BITTERMANN: Well, we understand, in fact, when he came to the hospital today, he was actually blessing and giving the sign of the cross to people as he was coming in the door.
No confirmation of that. And there are no pictures of him arriving, as far as I know, at the hospital today. So, yes, I think the pope feels its his role to set this example. You know, you were talking earlier and it's kind of interesting when you look back a bit, talking earlier about how the pope was sort of meant for this role.
I've been to the pope's hometown in Wadowice, Poland, and it's a gritty, dirty little town, probably been cleaned up today. But back in the days of Eastern Europe, with a lot of soot in the air, it must not have been a very healthy place to grow up, a town of about 80,000, heavily industrial. And when the pope was only about 19 years old, the Nazis stormed into town and took over that part of Poland.
So, he grew up under the Nazis. He then grew under the communists. When the war was over, it was all under communist control. And yet, despite all the things that were going on around him, he had this -- he was able to come to this language ability. He had this philosophical bent. And he had an acting tradition, all three sort of kinds of characteristics which would later serve him very well when he became the pope.
And it's amazing to sort of see that someone from such a very impoverished background could rise above it all and have exactly the right qualities for a modern pope in a very electronic age -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: So well said, Jim Bittermann, outside of Gemelli Hospital right now, as he continues to monitor Pope John Paul II's condition.
As he remains there in the hospital, we're being told that possibly the pope will undergo surgery for specifically a tracheotomy to help with his respiratory problems that he's been having for the past few weeks.
Delia Gallagher, our Vatican analyst, live from the Rome bureau now.
Maybe you can sort of pick up where Jim left off, talking just about the pope's background, coming from poverty.
GALLAGHER: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Continuing this mission, Delia, of human suffering, evoking compassion, exactly what he believes in. I mean, this is just somebody that doesn't give up, considering everything that he's been through. And if you look at all the surgeries he's been through, the nine operations, the assassination attempt, this is someone with absolutely incredible mental will and an incredible spiritual state of mind.
GALLAGHER: Well, there is another element there. And that is his physical state of health.
You know, the pope, from a young age, was a very physical sportsman, rowing, mountain climbing, skiing. He did all of that, in addition to his academic work, in addition to writing poetry, in addition to being a preach and a bishop and an archbishop.
So, I think that that early training in the physical sports and all that he continued to do throughout there in the years of his pontificate stood him in good stead for these later difficult years. And that's something that we don't often talk about, but this was a very, very healthy and active pope. And that's probably one of the reasons why now to see him in this state...
PHILLIPS: All right, I apologize for that. We've lost the audio of Delia Gallagher there, the CNN Vatican analyst in the Rome bureau. We will try and get her hooked back up again and talk with her.
But just to recap what has taken place to this point within the past hour, you're looking at live pictures right now outside of Gemelli Hospital in Rome, not far from the Vatican at all, where we're told that Pope John Paul II is at this moment.
Just to give you a little background, you will remember, when the pope was not feeling well in the month of January and February 1, he checked in here to Gemelli Hospital because of respiratory problems that he was having due to the flu. And then he was in there for nine days. He's now been out for 13, but, today, was having more respiratory problems and he was rushed back to the hospital.
And now we are being told that, possibly in the next couple of hours, Pope John Paul II will undergo a tracheotomy. We will continue our breaking news coverage on the condition of Pope John Paul II right after a quick break.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Once again, we want to welcome our international and domestic viewers to the breaking news coverage out of CNN Center here in Atlanta.
We're following the condition of Pope John Paul II. He has been readmitted to the hospital there, Gemelli Hospital, not far from the Vatican. We are told, in a couple hours, he may undergo surgery, that surgery is a possible tracheotomy.
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