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Supremacists & Crime; BTK Killer Witness
Aired March 01, 2005 - 13:28 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: At the top of the hour, we told you about the federal judge in Chicago who made a horrifying discovery, finding her husband and her mother shot to death inside her home. Clearly, very early in this investigation, but police in Chicago say they're ruling nothing out at this point. Among the possible suspects at the top of their list, a white supremacist leader once convicted by the judge.
Let's go to Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, renowned our guest from the Southern Legal Center, renowned in its work in tracking hate crimes and its legal battles against white supremacists. He joins us from Montgomery, Alabama.
Mr. Potok, good to have you with us.
MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Well, thank you for having me, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, we want to be careful not to convict somebody right now, but clearly, as we just said, when you go down the list of suspects -- and judges have a lot of potential suspects -- this person, Mr. Hale, would be near the top or at the top, correct?
POTOK: Well, think it's conceivable hale was involved, although much more likely that some member of his group, or sympathizer of his group could be involved. I say that because Hale is actually being held, pending sentencing, for soliciting murder of this federal judge, he's being held under anti-terrorism statutes in a way that keeps him from almost any contact with the outside world.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I should have made that very clear. I was speaking about his disciples, if you will. And if you look at the track record here, his disciples in the past have been involved in criminal activity at his behest.
POTOK: In a very big way. I mean, this is a group that has rained death and destruction on the rest of us. Just to give a sense of it, back in 1999, a guy who was really his sort of second in command, his favorite follower, a man named Benjamin Smith, grew upset one day when Matt Hale was denied his law license. Ben Smith decided the very next morning to step out into the streets and to go on to murder two people and grievously wound nine others, all minorities, before turning the gun on himself.
And you know, what's kind of interesting about the Ben Smith rampage case, is the fact that Matt Hale initially denied that he knew Ben Smith really at all. He had met him, he said, once eight months before. Well, you know, come to find out that Matt Hale in fact had been on the phone with this fellow, Ben Smith, for 16 hours in the two weeks preceding the shootout, or the rampage, and for 22 minutes just two days before the rampage.
O'BRIEN: So this organization then is a particularly potent one, and one with a track record linked to a lot of violence.
POTOK: That is true. Members of this group have ordered a black Gulf War veteran in Florida. They have set off a bomb in the offices of the NAACP in the state of Washington. They've engaged in shootouts. And of course the mass murder led by Ben Smith. And there's any number of other minor -- really not minor, but beatings, aggravated assaults and weapons violation and so on.
O'BRIEN: And just a quick final thought here. It begs the question, how much security is a judge who gets involved in a group like this, how much security is a judge like that afforded?
POTOK: Well, this judge in fact received security after the case got going in which she was involved. She presided over a copyright case in which the World Church of the Creator lost the right to use its name. She was constantly threatened, really called names, by this group. And as a result, police and FBI did put people on her street in unmarked cars. But once Hale was convicted, they lessened that security. And you know, unfortunately, you just can't protect people all the time, and you know, the tragic outcome, or apparent outcome, we've seen.
O'BRIEN: Mark Potok is with the Southern Poverty Law Center, thanks you for your time.
POTOK: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's a story we've been talking about for days now, Dennis Rader, the man suspected of being the infamous BTK killer. He appeared via a videolink today, his first court appearance to hear the charges against him. You heard district Judge Greg Waller read the 10 counts of first-degree murder against Rader and asked name he understood the charges. Very politely, "Yes, sir," Rader replied.
Now begins the prosecution. Who's heading up that team? Sedgwick County D.A. Nola Foulston. She joins us live now, just outside the courthouse. It's a pleasure to have you.
NOLA FOULSTON, SEDGWICK COUNTY D.A.: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you are first of all, how strong is your case?
FOULSTON: Well, any case that makes it through the complaint and information process after a felony review and is filed within the courthouse has to merit the -- has to merit certain requirements before cases are filed. You just don't file cases that don't have anything to back them up. PHILLIPS: And there's been a lot of talk about what led to this arrest -- a DNA sample from his daughter, possibly this disc that was sent to KAKE television revealing some information with regard to Dennis Rader, his connection to his church. What do you think is the strongest piece of evidence right now?
FOULSTON: You know, Kyra, unfortunately, I'm not at liberty to discuss any pieces of evidence. We are guided by principles of the supreme court of our state that require that we not discuss pieces of evidence. All of that will come out during the course of the trial.
We can only comment on stages of the proceeding and fact that a complaint and information has been filed on this case. And of course these are allegations that have been made against Mr. Rader, and these are to be proven at the time of the trial. And until that time, Mr. Rader remains accused and alleged to have committed them, and innocent until proven guilty.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you with regard to what we do know, the judge reading 10 counts of first-degree murder charges today. Do you believe that there could be any other murders linked to Dennis Rader?
FOULSTON: Any other motive?
PHILLIPS: Murders.
FOULSTON: Oh, any murder. At this particular time, these are the counts that we have alleged, and the ones that have been charged. Of course, if there is information that comes to our attention in the future with regard to any other cases that might be alleged to have occurred or been committed by him, there's always the ability to amend the complaint and information.
PHILLIPS: Miss Foulston, another thing has been talked about recently, and that is Dennis Rader receiving a degree from Wichita State University in administration of justice, also working for a home security company from the mid-'70s to early '80s. Do you believe homes he entered during that time as a security guard could be connected to any of the murder scenes?
FOULSTON: Well, I, again, I'm not at liberty to discuss that, and that, again, places it within the area of discussing evidence that will come out at the time of trial. But certainly, the roles that individuals play within their life and roles that -- their responsibilities and jobs could connect individuals to some of the crimes that occurred.
PHILLIPS: No doubt -- I know we must let you go. But as the attorney, as D.A., as being in this area for a number of years, 31 years looking for a suspect, you've got to be pretty excited right now, in addition to all of the members related to victims.
FOULSTON: You know, Kyra, I was an assistant district attorney back in 1977 when Nancy Fox (ph) was killed, and I was tangentially involved. There are only about 18 assistant district attorney back in 1977 when that homicide occurred. And I can remember the feeling of being a young woman -- I was only in my late 20s at that time, and feeling the unraveling or the unnerving feeling of potential of even being a victim.
And so, following this through the years, and then having something or somewhat of a relief in the community, and of course these allegations being filed at this time, it's been also an historical adventure in essence for our community to then after 30 years have this occur.
And now I've got to prosecute this case, and I want to do it in the manner that responds to our constitutional requirements, and to make sure that we give Mr. Rader every constitutional benefit, and to make sure that this case is tried in the courtroom, so that when we're said and done and we're able to talk about this case, we can do so, knowing that we've done everything we can and we've done it right.
PHILLIPS: Sedgwick County district attorney Nola Foulston, we thank you for your time. You know we'll be following this case closely, including everything that you're working on. Thank you for your time.
FOULSTON: You're welcome.
PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, as a child, he let the notorious BTK killer into his home, and he witnessed his mother's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
He starts pulling down blinds, turns off the TV, reaches into his shoulder holster and pulls out a pistol.
PHILLIPS: Remembering the day that changed his life. An unforgettable account, next on LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: Now we want to warn you, this next piece that you're about to hear is chilling and disturbing and may not be suitable for children. The man accused of being the notorious BTK serial killer made his first court appearance about an hour ago. Dennis Rader, an active church member and father of two, appeared by video as 10 counts of murder were read against him. It's a day many people in Wichita, Kansas say they have been waiting for, especially Steve Relford. Last night, Relford spoke for the first time to CNN's Paula Zahn about witnessing the BTK killer brutally torture and kill his mother when he was only 5 years old.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: I know this is a painful thing for you to do, but take us back to March 17, 1977 and describe to us what happened to you that day.
STEVE RELFORD, SON OF BTK VICTIM: My mother was sick. She didn't feel well, so she sent me to the store for some soup. On my way back from the store, this man stopped me, shows me a picture, asked me did I know who it was. I told him, no, sir. He said, are you sure? Look at it again. I told him, no, sir, I didn't know who it was.
So he let me go. I went on to my house and he went to my neighbors. About 10 minutes go by, he comes knocking on my door. Me and my brother raced to the door. I beat my brother. I let the my mom -- I let BTK in my house. He asked where my mother was and where my parents were. My mom's sick in bed. So, immediately, he starts pulling down the blinds, turns off the TV, reaches in his shoulder holster and pulls out a pistol. About that time, my mother steps to the bedroom door.
About that time, the phone rang. I asked, mom, do you want me to answer it? No. Leave it alone, he said. Then I asked mom. She said, no, leave it alone. Do as he says. So I did.
My brother and sister, they start tripping out. He told my mom to put some toys and blankets in the bathroom for us kids. So we did. After that, he took a rope, tied one of the doors shut at the door knob to under the sink, pushed the bed up against the other door, stripped my mother, taped her hands behind her back, plastic bag over her head and rope tied around her neck.
My brother breaks a window. My sister and brother was tripping out. So was I. I told him that I was going to untie the rope from underneath the sink. He told me, if I did, he'd blow my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) head off.
ZAHN: Did he have any idea you were watching him?
RELFORD: No.
ZAHN: And how were you able to see at that point with both bathroom doors tethered to ropes?
RELFORD: There was the bathtub. I stood on it. There was a crack above the door. I peeked over it.
ZAHN: And, at this point, he's already threatened you. Weren't you afraid of making any noises that would draw attention to the fact that you had moved?
RELFORD: My brother and sister was already tripping out, so it didn't matter if I brought noise or not.
ZAHN: So they were screaming? They were yelling?
RELFORD: Yes.
ZAHN: When this man showed you the picture of a child with a woman, to this day, do you know who was in that picture?
RELFORD: I have that picture. It's me and my mother.
ZAHN: So when he showed you the picture of a woman and a child, you knew that was your mom?
RELFORD: No. At that time, no, I did not. My grandparents had a picture just like it, I found out about six or eight years later when I seen that picture. I told my grandparents, that's the picture that that man showed me.
ZAHN: When you saw pictures of Dennis Rader today, was there any doubt in your mind that he is the man you ran into in the neighborhood and then later the man came knocking on your door?
RELFORD: There is no doubt in my mind. Dennis Rader is BTK, as far as I am concerned.
ZAHN: You've lived with the fear that perhaps this crime would never be solved. Is there any sense of relief for you today?
RELFORD: There is, but there's not. And the reason I say that is because he is not convicted.
ZAHN: So, Steve, I know, if you had the chance to talk with the man police think killed your mother, you'd want him to answer a couple of questions. You'd want him to answer, where did you get that picture? What else would you like to know?
RELFORD: What possessed him to kill my mother and these other innocent folks out here? He had no right.
ZAHN: Steve, I know today, as many days have been for you, has been just horrible. And you went back to the home where your mother was murdered for the very first time. Why was that important for you to go back to that home?
RELFORD: I think just to reassure in my mind and repicture Dennis Rader's face.
ZAHN: Were you able to do that?
RELFORD: And I did.
ZAHN: You were able to do that?
RELFORD: Yes.
ZAHN: How hard was it for you to go back?
RELFORD: It was very difficult, very hard to deal with. But I had to do it for me.
ZAHN: Why?
RELFORD: And my mother.
ZAHN: Tell me why.
RELFORD: Satisfy my own curiosity, if I remembered what I thought I remembered. And I did.
ZAHN: How did the brutal murder of your mother, a murder which you witnessed, change you? RELFORD: Made me rebel against everything I ever believed in, turned me into an alcoholic, a drug addict, tattooed up. I would never have been like this if my mother was still living.
ZAHN: I know one of the tougher things for you has been the fact that you were just a little boy at the time this happened, and there really was nothing you could have done to stop this man from coming into your home, but is that something that you play over and over again in your head?
RELFORD: Yes, I do.
ZAHN: What do you see when you remember that horrible afternoon?
RELFORD: The last appearance of my mother laying face down with a plastic bag over her head, rope tied around her neck, all the fingers in her hands broken, her hands taped behind her back. That's what I remember.
ZAHN: Is there any way you'll ever really have peace in your life?
RELFORD: No.
ZAHN: Steve, I know how difficult this has been for you to relive these very, very dark hours. And we very much appreciate your joining us tonight and wish you a lot of luck as you try to -- with this next chapter of your life.
RELFORD: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Two new cases of bird flu in Vietnam. A 35-year-old woman who works as a poultry market cleaner and a 14-year-old girl whose brother is also infected with the virus. He's reported in critical condition on a respirator. A total of 47 people have now died of bird flu in Asia since late 2003. Meanwhile, British officials announced today they're going to buy several hundred million dollars worth of tamiflu, stockpiling the anti-viral drug in the event of a human bird flu pandemic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
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Aired March 1, 2005 - 13:28 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: At the top of the hour, we told you about the federal judge in Chicago who made a horrifying discovery, finding her husband and her mother shot to death inside her home. Clearly, very early in this investigation, but police in Chicago say they're ruling nothing out at this point. Among the possible suspects at the top of their list, a white supremacist leader once convicted by the judge.
Let's go to Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, renowned our guest from the Southern Legal Center, renowned in its work in tracking hate crimes and its legal battles against white supremacists. He joins us from Montgomery, Alabama.
Mr. Potok, good to have you with us.
MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Well, thank you for having me, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, we want to be careful not to convict somebody right now, but clearly, as we just said, when you go down the list of suspects -- and judges have a lot of potential suspects -- this person, Mr. Hale, would be near the top or at the top, correct?
POTOK: Well, think it's conceivable hale was involved, although much more likely that some member of his group, or sympathizer of his group could be involved. I say that because Hale is actually being held, pending sentencing, for soliciting murder of this federal judge, he's being held under anti-terrorism statutes in a way that keeps him from almost any contact with the outside world.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I should have made that very clear. I was speaking about his disciples, if you will. And if you look at the track record here, his disciples in the past have been involved in criminal activity at his behest.
POTOK: In a very big way. I mean, this is a group that has rained death and destruction on the rest of us. Just to give a sense of it, back in 1999, a guy who was really his sort of second in command, his favorite follower, a man named Benjamin Smith, grew upset one day when Matt Hale was denied his law license. Ben Smith decided the very next morning to step out into the streets and to go on to murder two people and grievously wound nine others, all minorities, before turning the gun on himself.
And you know, what's kind of interesting about the Ben Smith rampage case, is the fact that Matt Hale initially denied that he knew Ben Smith really at all. He had met him, he said, once eight months before. Well, you know, come to find out that Matt Hale in fact had been on the phone with this fellow, Ben Smith, for 16 hours in the two weeks preceding the shootout, or the rampage, and for 22 minutes just two days before the rampage.
O'BRIEN: So this organization then is a particularly potent one, and one with a track record linked to a lot of violence.
POTOK: That is true. Members of this group have ordered a black Gulf War veteran in Florida. They have set off a bomb in the offices of the NAACP in the state of Washington. They've engaged in shootouts. And of course the mass murder led by Ben Smith. And there's any number of other minor -- really not minor, but beatings, aggravated assaults and weapons violation and so on.
O'BRIEN: And just a quick final thought here. It begs the question, how much security is a judge who gets involved in a group like this, how much security is a judge like that afforded?
POTOK: Well, this judge in fact received security after the case got going in which she was involved. She presided over a copyright case in which the World Church of the Creator lost the right to use its name. She was constantly threatened, really called names, by this group. And as a result, police and FBI did put people on her street in unmarked cars. But once Hale was convicted, they lessened that security. And you know, unfortunately, you just can't protect people all the time, and you know, the tragic outcome, or apparent outcome, we've seen.
O'BRIEN: Mark Potok is with the Southern Poverty Law Center, thanks you for your time.
POTOK: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's a story we've been talking about for days now, Dennis Rader, the man suspected of being the infamous BTK killer. He appeared via a videolink today, his first court appearance to hear the charges against him. You heard district Judge Greg Waller read the 10 counts of first-degree murder against Rader and asked name he understood the charges. Very politely, "Yes, sir," Rader replied.
Now begins the prosecution. Who's heading up that team? Sedgwick County D.A. Nola Foulston. She joins us live now, just outside the courthouse. It's a pleasure to have you.
NOLA FOULSTON, SEDGWICK COUNTY D.A.: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you are first of all, how strong is your case?
FOULSTON: Well, any case that makes it through the complaint and information process after a felony review and is filed within the courthouse has to merit the -- has to merit certain requirements before cases are filed. You just don't file cases that don't have anything to back them up. PHILLIPS: And there's been a lot of talk about what led to this arrest -- a DNA sample from his daughter, possibly this disc that was sent to KAKE television revealing some information with regard to Dennis Rader, his connection to his church. What do you think is the strongest piece of evidence right now?
FOULSTON: You know, Kyra, unfortunately, I'm not at liberty to discuss any pieces of evidence. We are guided by principles of the supreme court of our state that require that we not discuss pieces of evidence. All of that will come out during the course of the trial.
We can only comment on stages of the proceeding and fact that a complaint and information has been filed on this case. And of course these are allegations that have been made against Mr. Rader, and these are to be proven at the time of the trial. And until that time, Mr. Rader remains accused and alleged to have committed them, and innocent until proven guilty.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you with regard to what we do know, the judge reading 10 counts of first-degree murder charges today. Do you believe that there could be any other murders linked to Dennis Rader?
FOULSTON: Any other motive?
PHILLIPS: Murders.
FOULSTON: Oh, any murder. At this particular time, these are the counts that we have alleged, and the ones that have been charged. Of course, if there is information that comes to our attention in the future with regard to any other cases that might be alleged to have occurred or been committed by him, there's always the ability to amend the complaint and information.
PHILLIPS: Miss Foulston, another thing has been talked about recently, and that is Dennis Rader receiving a degree from Wichita State University in administration of justice, also working for a home security company from the mid-'70s to early '80s. Do you believe homes he entered during that time as a security guard could be connected to any of the murder scenes?
FOULSTON: Well, I, again, I'm not at liberty to discuss that, and that, again, places it within the area of discussing evidence that will come out at the time of trial. But certainly, the roles that individuals play within their life and roles that -- their responsibilities and jobs could connect individuals to some of the crimes that occurred.
PHILLIPS: No doubt -- I know we must let you go. But as the attorney, as D.A., as being in this area for a number of years, 31 years looking for a suspect, you've got to be pretty excited right now, in addition to all of the members related to victims.
FOULSTON: You know, Kyra, I was an assistant district attorney back in 1977 when Nancy Fox (ph) was killed, and I was tangentially involved. There are only about 18 assistant district attorney back in 1977 when that homicide occurred. And I can remember the feeling of being a young woman -- I was only in my late 20s at that time, and feeling the unraveling or the unnerving feeling of potential of even being a victim.
And so, following this through the years, and then having something or somewhat of a relief in the community, and of course these allegations being filed at this time, it's been also an historical adventure in essence for our community to then after 30 years have this occur.
And now I've got to prosecute this case, and I want to do it in the manner that responds to our constitutional requirements, and to make sure that we give Mr. Rader every constitutional benefit, and to make sure that this case is tried in the courtroom, so that when we're said and done and we're able to talk about this case, we can do so, knowing that we've done everything we can and we've done it right.
PHILLIPS: Sedgwick County district attorney Nola Foulston, we thank you for your time. You know we'll be following this case closely, including everything that you're working on. Thank you for your time.
FOULSTON: You're welcome.
PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, as a child, he let the notorious BTK killer into his home, and he witnessed his mother's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
He starts pulling down blinds, turns off the TV, reaches into his shoulder holster and pulls out a pistol.
PHILLIPS: Remembering the day that changed his life. An unforgettable account, next on LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: Now we want to warn you, this next piece that you're about to hear is chilling and disturbing and may not be suitable for children. The man accused of being the notorious BTK serial killer made his first court appearance about an hour ago. Dennis Rader, an active church member and father of two, appeared by video as 10 counts of murder were read against him. It's a day many people in Wichita, Kansas say they have been waiting for, especially Steve Relford. Last night, Relford spoke for the first time to CNN's Paula Zahn about witnessing the BTK killer brutally torture and kill his mother when he was only 5 years old.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: I know this is a painful thing for you to do, but take us back to March 17, 1977 and describe to us what happened to you that day.
STEVE RELFORD, SON OF BTK VICTIM: My mother was sick. She didn't feel well, so she sent me to the store for some soup. On my way back from the store, this man stopped me, shows me a picture, asked me did I know who it was. I told him, no, sir. He said, are you sure? Look at it again. I told him, no, sir, I didn't know who it was.
So he let me go. I went on to my house and he went to my neighbors. About 10 minutes go by, he comes knocking on my door. Me and my brother raced to the door. I beat my brother. I let the my mom -- I let BTK in my house. He asked where my mother was and where my parents were. My mom's sick in bed. So, immediately, he starts pulling down the blinds, turns off the TV, reaches in his shoulder holster and pulls out a pistol. About that time, my mother steps to the bedroom door.
About that time, the phone rang. I asked, mom, do you want me to answer it? No. Leave it alone, he said. Then I asked mom. She said, no, leave it alone. Do as he says. So I did.
My brother and sister, they start tripping out. He told my mom to put some toys and blankets in the bathroom for us kids. So we did. After that, he took a rope, tied one of the doors shut at the door knob to under the sink, pushed the bed up against the other door, stripped my mother, taped her hands behind her back, plastic bag over her head and rope tied around her neck.
My brother breaks a window. My sister and brother was tripping out. So was I. I told him that I was going to untie the rope from underneath the sink. He told me, if I did, he'd blow my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) head off.
ZAHN: Did he have any idea you were watching him?
RELFORD: No.
ZAHN: And how were you able to see at that point with both bathroom doors tethered to ropes?
RELFORD: There was the bathtub. I stood on it. There was a crack above the door. I peeked over it.
ZAHN: And, at this point, he's already threatened you. Weren't you afraid of making any noises that would draw attention to the fact that you had moved?
RELFORD: My brother and sister was already tripping out, so it didn't matter if I brought noise or not.
ZAHN: So they were screaming? They were yelling?
RELFORD: Yes.
ZAHN: When this man showed you the picture of a child with a woman, to this day, do you know who was in that picture?
RELFORD: I have that picture. It's me and my mother.
ZAHN: So when he showed you the picture of a woman and a child, you knew that was your mom?
RELFORD: No. At that time, no, I did not. My grandparents had a picture just like it, I found out about six or eight years later when I seen that picture. I told my grandparents, that's the picture that that man showed me.
ZAHN: When you saw pictures of Dennis Rader today, was there any doubt in your mind that he is the man you ran into in the neighborhood and then later the man came knocking on your door?
RELFORD: There is no doubt in my mind. Dennis Rader is BTK, as far as I am concerned.
ZAHN: You've lived with the fear that perhaps this crime would never be solved. Is there any sense of relief for you today?
RELFORD: There is, but there's not. And the reason I say that is because he is not convicted.
ZAHN: So, Steve, I know, if you had the chance to talk with the man police think killed your mother, you'd want him to answer a couple of questions. You'd want him to answer, where did you get that picture? What else would you like to know?
RELFORD: What possessed him to kill my mother and these other innocent folks out here? He had no right.
ZAHN: Steve, I know today, as many days have been for you, has been just horrible. And you went back to the home where your mother was murdered for the very first time. Why was that important for you to go back to that home?
RELFORD: I think just to reassure in my mind and repicture Dennis Rader's face.
ZAHN: Were you able to do that?
RELFORD: And I did.
ZAHN: You were able to do that?
RELFORD: Yes.
ZAHN: How hard was it for you to go back?
RELFORD: It was very difficult, very hard to deal with. But I had to do it for me.
ZAHN: Why?
RELFORD: And my mother.
ZAHN: Tell me why.
RELFORD: Satisfy my own curiosity, if I remembered what I thought I remembered. And I did.
ZAHN: How did the brutal murder of your mother, a murder which you witnessed, change you? RELFORD: Made me rebel against everything I ever believed in, turned me into an alcoholic, a drug addict, tattooed up. I would never have been like this if my mother was still living.
ZAHN: I know one of the tougher things for you has been the fact that you were just a little boy at the time this happened, and there really was nothing you could have done to stop this man from coming into your home, but is that something that you play over and over again in your head?
RELFORD: Yes, I do.
ZAHN: What do you see when you remember that horrible afternoon?
RELFORD: The last appearance of my mother laying face down with a plastic bag over her head, rope tied around her neck, all the fingers in her hands broken, her hands taped behind her back. That's what I remember.
ZAHN: Is there any way you'll ever really have peace in your life?
RELFORD: No.
ZAHN: Steve, I know how difficult this has been for you to relive these very, very dark hours. And we very much appreciate your joining us tonight and wish you a lot of luck as you try to -- with this next chapter of your life.
RELFORD: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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PHILLIPS: Two new cases of bird flu in Vietnam. A 35-year-old woman who works as a poultry market cleaner and a 14-year-old girl whose brother is also infected with the virus. He's reported in critical condition on a respirator. A total of 47 people have now died of bird flu in Asia since late 2003. Meanwhile, British officials announced today they're going to buy several hundred million dollars worth of tamiflu, stockpiling the anti-viral drug in the event of a human bird flu pandemic.
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