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Jackson in a Jam; Suicide Mystery

Aired March 10, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former President Clinton now out of surgery and recovering. Live this hour we expect a news conference from the Manhattan hospital.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Disheveled defendant. Michael Jackson shows up late for court after the judge threatens his arrest. There he is, in case you missed the video. It was quite dramatic, in his PJs and all. We're live on the story.

O'BRIEN: Is a suicide during a traffic stop in Wisconsin connected to the shooting deaths of a Chicago judge's family? A possible break in the case. We're live from Chicago as well.

"The Passion" coming to a theater near you again. Mel Gibson hopes changes to his controversial hit will give the movie an even bigger audience.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.

O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This is CNN's LIVE FROM and we're glad you're here.

A nail-biting beginning, a jaw-dropping entrance, then back to business, and serious business it is. If you've been watching CNN, you saw Michael Jackson apparently in pain in pajama bottoms and in danger of arrest showing up for a day of make-or-break testimony from his young accuser. We'll get the drama and the details from CNN's Miguel Marquez in Santa Maria, California, and our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, in New York City.

Miguel, you first.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Mr. Jackson is in court now in those pajamas, hair unkempt, to say the least, and slippers, listening to his accuser testify and say things about what he says Mr. Jackson did to him. Before all that got started, though, Mr. Jackson, late again for court, and suddenly calls his attorney and says, I can't be there. I have a serious back problem.

The attorney informed the judge. The judge said, I'm issuing a bench warrant but I'm holding it for one hour. If Mr. Jackson is not here in an hour, he's going to be arrested.

Mr. Jackson just missed the deadline, three minutes over. Right now, we believe that the court is going to have more to say about this. All the judge has said so far to jurors is that don't -- don't infer anything from the fact that I ordered Mr. Jackson here today. He -- I would order one of you here if you hadn't shown up, so don't draw anything from that.

In court, the accuser is testifying. He has testified so far that at the Miami hotel that Mr. Jackson took him and his family to, on the night that the Bashir documentary was airing in the United States, Mr. Jackson took him aside into his private bedroom and gave him wine, which Mr. Jackson called "Jesus Juice."

He asked him, "Have you ever heard of Jesus Juice?" The boy said he tried it after Jackson told him, "It will relax you." This corroborates what his brother and sister said earlier, that the boy, after coming out of Mr. Jackson's room, seemed different, excited, running around, just seemed different like he was possibly intoxicated. The boy also testified that Mr. Jackson forbid him and his family from watching the Bashir documentary that night. That is one of the overt acts charged in the conspiracy against Mr. Jackson as well.

On the Bashir documentary, the boy was also asked if he had seen it and if he -- what happened, why did he hold his hand? He said that Mr. Jackson asked him to hold his hand during the documentary, but when the boy leaned over and put his head on Mr. Jackson's shoulder, he did that on his own because he considered Mr. Jackson, he said, his best friend in the world at that time.

We'll see what happens with Mr. Jackson and whether or not he is remanded into custody and his bail forfeited, though, a little later today.

Kyra, back you to.

O'BRIEN: All right. That will be a separate issue, that whole bail matter.

MARQUEZ: Or Miles, I should say.

O'BRIEN: That's OK. That's OK. We're a team here. We go either way on this.

Miguel, do you get the sense that so far this testimony has been consistent today?

MARQUEZ: From what it sounds like, it has been consistent. There's some -- there's some small inconsistencies from what I can tell from what's being reported from the courtroom.

One was that the -- Jackson apparently gave the boy a watch valued at $75,000 on the plane. His brother and sister testified that Deter Weisner (ph), one of the unindicted co-conspirators, pressured them to get that watch back, pressured the entire family to get that watch back.

The boy testified today that he gave it to Larry Feldman, a lawyer who they later saw, and never was asked for the watch back. That's a bit of a glaring non-corroboration, which may be -- may present a problem for the prosecution and I'm sure Mr. Jackson's attorneys will jump all over -- Miles. O'BRIEN: All right. Miguel Marquez there in Santa Maria.

Let's turn it over now to Jeff Toobin, who watched this wild scene unfold.

Jeff, it seems like we've shared quite a few wild scenes.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, indeed.

O'BRIEN: I remember that day when you and I were talking and all of a sudden Michael Jackson was on top of his vehicle, that SUV, doing a little moon walk for the crowd. And at that time I remember you distinctly saying, you know, he -- he's got to be careful because the judge is not going to take this well. Well, when you start adding up all these instances of mysterious disappearances from court, odd type of behavior outside of court, you've got to wonder what's on the mind of the judge and what shoe might drop in the near-term future.

TOOBIN: Well, there is a major shoe that is poised to drop because, remember, the judge didn't just register his displeasure this morning. He said, "I am revoking bail and I am forfeiting the bond of $3 million unless you are here in one hour."

Michael Jackson did not arrive within one hour. He got there, by my count, one hour and three minutes later. He was three minutes late. And the judge has not resolved what he's going to do about Jackson's bail status.

My guess is, given how these things work, this will be, simply, strike two. The day you were talking about, which we covered together, was the day of his arraignment, when he was both late and later danced on top of the hood of the -- the roof of the car. Now, he's got this second strike against him. I imagine it will result only in a severe warning. But it is also possible that he could simply lock Michael Jackson up.

O'BRIEN: All right. And we'll know about that today after the testimony? That's something that will occur away from the jury's view?

TOOBIN: Well, certainly the discussion of the sanction, if any, will take place outside the presence of the jury. What's interesting about how Judge Melville handled the situation, which is the way a lot of good trial judges work, is that he said, look, I do not want to waste the jury's time.

As soon as he got Jackson in, he got the jury in the box, got the witness on the stand, and started testimony. So he did not deal with the legal issue involving Jackson's bail status. He just wanted to get the testimony going, not to waste the jury's time anymore.

O'BRIEN: All right. Jeff Toobin, thanks for your insights, as always -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Ten days into the Lefkow murder investigation in Chicago, the focus is fixed on West Allis, Wisconsin. That Milwaukee suburb is where a Chicago man killed himself yesterday after a traffic cop pulled him over for a taillight problem.

What police reportedly found in Bart Ross' minivan strongly suggests, to say the very least, that Ross was involved in last week's murder of the husband and mother of federal Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow, at the very least, is what investigators are saying for the record. But Jim Warren has heard a lot more from his vantage point as deputy managing editor of the "Chicago Tribune."

Thanks for being with us, James.

JIM WARREN, DEPUTY MANAGING EDITOR, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Sure, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, let's talk about the alleged evidence. You have obviously reported so much more than we've even been able to report. So tell us what you know about Bart Ross at this stage.

WARREN: Well, we've reported that the man who committed suicide in West Allis, just north of -- just outside Milwaukee, had left hand- written notes which detailed matters about the killings which nobody in the public would have otherwise known, which did include a sort of cry of the heart as to how he somehow was a victim of the legal system and, specifically, Judge Lefkow, before whom he had a medical malpractice case.

She ruled against him. And in his mind he had lost everything in his life as a result of that case.

Now, it turns out -- talk about six degrees of separation, Kyra -- I just happen to have a mutual acquaintance with this gentleman who, it turns out, was an eastern European native, an electrical contractor, had changed his name. I'm not sure what his original name was. Indeed, had come up apparently with cancer of the jaw sometime in the 1990s, had undergone surgery at the University of Illinois Medical Center.

In his mind, it did not work. His jaw situation degenerated. He looked around for lawyers to file a case, he could not find a lawyer to take the case.

He then ultimately filed a federal court lawsuit which wound up in the court of Judge Lefkow, and he represented himself. And in late January she dismissed the lawsuit. And a letter that he subsequently also wrote to the NBC station here in Chicago, we believe that he wrote, it arrived yesterday, was signed by somebody with the same name, outlined not only his rage but, in rather chilling fashion, the purported detailing of the killings.

PHILLIPS: So, Jim, what's interesting is there was all this talk about Matthew Hale, the white supremacist now serving time for this alleged plot to kill Judge Lefkow. Now with this alleged evidence coming forward, and Bart Ross and this attempted suicide, does that clear Matthew Hale from being involved in this completely? And has there been any evidence that has come forward that's connected Bart Ross to any type of hate group or hate crime? WARREN: No, although we believe that there was some mention in his written comments he had and left behind in the car of Nazi war criminals, but do not know what the context is. So to answer your question, at this point we do not know if there was somebody else was involved in this, do not know if he had ties.

But on the surface, it would look like, given his legal history, given his huge frustration with, first, the medical system and the legal system and, certainly, what a mutual acquaintance, a fellow I know here in town says was his burning rage over the years, it would seem to -- that it was, like the Hale theory, an act of revenge, but not having to do with any white supremacist talk.

PHILLIPS: Well, your newspaper also reported that the bullets and the casings have created quite a puzzle for investigators. Why?

WARREN: Well, there have been a lot of conflicting reports about what was going on with the casings. At this point, we believe that there were multiple, and as many as 322 caliber shells found in this van in West Allis. We believe that they were very similar to the casings found in the home of Judge Lefkow.

Now, in the note that he may well have written, which arrived at the NBC channel yesterday, and that explicit detail which this person goes into about the murder, this person talks about one gun and firing two bullets into the head of each of his victims and claims -- and boy, does this get, as I said, chilling -- that he broke in sometime around 6:00 a.m. in the morning, and his plan was simply to wait until the judge showed up.

He encountered the husband, killed him. The judge's mother then could be heard asking what was up with you, Michael, something to that effect, Michael being the husband, and he then killed her, if the note sent to the local TV station yesterday was, indeed, by the same person and, was, indeed, accurate.

PHILLIPS: Wow. Pretty explosive new details. Jim Warren, deputy managing editor for the "Chicago Tribune," thanks so much for your time today.

WARREN: Sure, Kyra.

O'BRIEN: In a few moments we expect doctors from former President Clinton's medical team to give us a live update on his condition. His surgery ended within the last hour or so. We'll bring you that live news conference as soon as it happens.

Lots more ahead as well. Stay with us as LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Just want to let you know in about 15 minutes we're going to take you live to New York. We're expecting Bill Clinton's doctors to hold a news conference. Lost the signal there. Apologize about that. We will have it together once the doctors do take to the podium to tell you about the condition of Bill Clinton since his surgery this morning. We did talk with our Sanjay Gupta, and reports so far is that the former president is doing well. We'll bring you the doctors live as soon as they step up to that podium.

Now, more on the Michael Jackson trial. The singer arrives late to court, claiming back problems on the day that his young accuser will give more potentially damaging testimony. Well, could it be a legal ploy?

For analysis, we turn, of course, to our legal eagles. Drew Findling is a criminal defense attorney. Brenda Joy Bernstein is a former prosecutor and is now a criminal defense attorney here in Atlanta.

Great to have you both. BRENDA JOY BERNSTEIN, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Thanks for having us.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's star with you, B.J. Well, actually I want you both to respond to this.

Let's start with you. Just the whole production within the past hour.

BERNSTEIN: Wow, what a day. Isn't it crazy?

PHILLIPS: Exactly. The pajamas, the slippers, the walking slowly. I mean, what do you think?

BERNSTEIN: It's insane. I mean, if it were you and I, we would be in a lot of trouble. We would not be out of jail tonight.

It's one thing to have -- be late to court once. But remember, we've already had one incident with the doctor and the drama and holding off court. But this morning, that's just ridiculous. You know, if you're not in critical condition, then you should be there.

PHILLIPS: What's your first reaction, Drew?

DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's a disaster. It's a disaster because we try to live with the fiction that jurors don't take this into account. They receive an admonishment from the judge not to take it into consideration.

You can rest assured that jury is going back, they're thinking about it and talking about it. is clearly indicative of panic on Michael Jackson's part, whether it's on a conscious or subconscious level. He is panicking because his accuser is taking the stand and he's losing control a little bit.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. So do you think that this is actually -- I mean, if, indeed, this is sort of part of the game and he wants attention and wants people to feel sorry for him, you think it might have a reverse effect on what the jury might decide or think of him? BERNSTEIN: It really well could. I mean, especially the fact that he's in his pajamas still. I mean, from the time that you get from -- he has a whole entourage. Why hasn't he...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: We're not going to be showing up in front of millions of people in our pajamas.

BERNSTEIN: Exactly. And it's respect for jurors. I mean, they're having to miss months of work.

If anything, you know, if he is incarcerated tonight, we may watch a trial that went from predictions of several months to going much faster. So maybe the jury will enjoy that it will move faster.

PHILLIPS: Wow. OK.

The credibility of what we heard yesterday, the accuser and the accuser's brother, first impressions? What do you think, believable, solid? I mean, these are kids that have testified before. It's not like they're going into this situation cold, right?

BERNSTEIN: Right. I think look at the accuser thus far. From what I've heard, seems very credible. And particularly when you read his grand jury testimony. That's obviously available to us in advance.

And in terms of seizing on the fact that everything is not precisely the same, that's a strength for the prosecution. Because if it did sound like a cookie cutter, if it did sound exactly alike, then the defense attorney is going to say, aha, you've been coached.

PHILLIPS: What do you think, Drew?

FINDLING: I feel bad that Jacko had a panic today because I think it's a garbage prosecution. I think it's just another lotto mentality case, you know.

I go to a Hawks game here in Atlanta and I pray that Ron Artest is going to throw a punch at me so I can sue him. Well, that's what we live with right now.

We live with the fact that we have a family like this that hooked up with an overzealous prosecutor. They have gone after J.C. Penney. It's obvious and it's become clear they perjured themselves in that case. That resulted in a $150,000 settlement.

These people have used the system to financially benefit themselves. They were going out there looking for money for this poor young child earlier, and they're using the court system for it now. And I feel bad for Michael because he panicked, because he has a good defense.

PHILLIPS: Looking at what the accuser had gone to say yesterday, he said there were even times when Jackson seemed to be trying to avoid him at Neverland, dodging his phone calls, pretending to be away from the ranch during his visits when he was actually there. I mean, sounds kind of like a jealous child.

BERNSTEIN: Well, you've got to remember that with children who are subject to child molestation, they are tender. They are seeking...

PHILLIPS: Very needy.

BERNSTEIN: Yes, exactly. They need attention.

Here is a young boy who was suffering from cancer, who is getting the dream of his life to meet celebrities, to be around these kind of people. And if they withdraw from him, then that child is going to be needy. It doesn't mean that the child is not telling the truth.

PHILLIPS: Let me ask you this, too. The parents said it was OK for the boys to sleep in the bedroom. Shouldn't the parents be held accountable here? I mean, who in their right mind...

FINDLING: It's atrocious. I mean, you know, one of the things that I always contend, if Michael Jackson's defense team wants to win, which is the goal, they have to concede he's a freak. He is a freak.

His whole thing about holding children's hands, sleeping in bed with them, it is unacceptable in our society. And if you cling to that thought with the goal of winning the trial, and you accept that as part of your defense, and you combine it with the fact that these people should know that he's a freak and not be putting their son in a position where he's subject to this, except if you're looking for a payday down the road by making a false accusation, which apparently is what the defense is going to say here.

PHILLIPS: You sort of wonder how it's taken so long to get to this point, considering your feelings. He's quite an interesting character, to say the least, in watching his whole life.

FINDLING: But he can moon walk, and that's important.

PHILLIPS: That's true. He is the best moon walker in the country.

FINDLING: That's true.

PHILLIPS: I mean, are you surprised that it's turning into this or that it's taken this long or -- I mean, do you think there's any chance that he could be absolutely innocent?

BERNSTEIN: You know, there's always a chance. And that's why what's happening today and tomorrow is so critical. Because, in the end, in all of these cases, all of the things that Drew has talked about, about the mother, and all the other things surrounding him, it gets down to what the child says, and for a brief moment, the believeability and the honest city that either will come through or not come through with that child. And that's what's going to be critical.

FINDLING: I think it's -- I think it's evident that he is innocent. I think that with all of the children he has been subjected to, the only two to truly surface are, one, that took an unknown settlement for millions of dollars, and the other from a family that's out there searching for money from everybody that has money in the Hollywood community.

It's a little bit surprising to me that those are the only two victims. And to me, that's indicative of the fact that he is a freak. But he's not a pedophile.

PHILLIPS: Very interesting. Drew says he's innocent. All right.

B.J. Bernstein and Drew Findling, we're going to bring you guys back. Good stuff. Thank you.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, we're just a few minutes away from a live update from doctors who performed surgery on former President Bill Clinton. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as it happens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired March 10, 2005 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former President Clinton now out of surgery and recovering. Live this hour we expect a news conference from the Manhattan hospital.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Disheveled defendant. Michael Jackson shows up late for court after the judge threatens his arrest. There he is, in case you missed the video. It was quite dramatic, in his PJs and all. We're live on the story.

O'BRIEN: Is a suicide during a traffic stop in Wisconsin connected to the shooting deaths of a Chicago judge's family? A possible break in the case. We're live from Chicago as well.

"The Passion" coming to a theater near you again. Mel Gibson hopes changes to his controversial hit will give the movie an even bigger audience.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.

O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This is CNN's LIVE FROM and we're glad you're here.

A nail-biting beginning, a jaw-dropping entrance, then back to business, and serious business it is. If you've been watching CNN, you saw Michael Jackson apparently in pain in pajama bottoms and in danger of arrest showing up for a day of make-or-break testimony from his young accuser. We'll get the drama and the details from CNN's Miguel Marquez in Santa Maria, California, and our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, in New York City.

Miguel, you first.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Mr. Jackson is in court now in those pajamas, hair unkempt, to say the least, and slippers, listening to his accuser testify and say things about what he says Mr. Jackson did to him. Before all that got started, though, Mr. Jackson, late again for court, and suddenly calls his attorney and says, I can't be there. I have a serious back problem.

The attorney informed the judge. The judge said, I'm issuing a bench warrant but I'm holding it for one hour. If Mr. Jackson is not here in an hour, he's going to be arrested.

Mr. Jackson just missed the deadline, three minutes over. Right now, we believe that the court is going to have more to say about this. All the judge has said so far to jurors is that don't -- don't infer anything from the fact that I ordered Mr. Jackson here today. He -- I would order one of you here if you hadn't shown up, so don't draw anything from that.

In court, the accuser is testifying. He has testified so far that at the Miami hotel that Mr. Jackson took him and his family to, on the night that the Bashir documentary was airing in the United States, Mr. Jackson took him aside into his private bedroom and gave him wine, which Mr. Jackson called "Jesus Juice."

He asked him, "Have you ever heard of Jesus Juice?" The boy said he tried it after Jackson told him, "It will relax you." This corroborates what his brother and sister said earlier, that the boy, after coming out of Mr. Jackson's room, seemed different, excited, running around, just seemed different like he was possibly intoxicated. The boy also testified that Mr. Jackson forbid him and his family from watching the Bashir documentary that night. That is one of the overt acts charged in the conspiracy against Mr. Jackson as well.

On the Bashir documentary, the boy was also asked if he had seen it and if he -- what happened, why did he hold his hand? He said that Mr. Jackson asked him to hold his hand during the documentary, but when the boy leaned over and put his head on Mr. Jackson's shoulder, he did that on his own because he considered Mr. Jackson, he said, his best friend in the world at that time.

We'll see what happens with Mr. Jackson and whether or not he is remanded into custody and his bail forfeited, though, a little later today.

Kyra, back you to.

O'BRIEN: All right. That will be a separate issue, that whole bail matter.

MARQUEZ: Or Miles, I should say.

O'BRIEN: That's OK. That's OK. We're a team here. We go either way on this.

Miguel, do you get the sense that so far this testimony has been consistent today?

MARQUEZ: From what it sounds like, it has been consistent. There's some -- there's some small inconsistencies from what I can tell from what's being reported from the courtroom.

One was that the -- Jackson apparently gave the boy a watch valued at $75,000 on the plane. His brother and sister testified that Deter Weisner (ph), one of the unindicted co-conspirators, pressured them to get that watch back, pressured the entire family to get that watch back.

The boy testified today that he gave it to Larry Feldman, a lawyer who they later saw, and never was asked for the watch back. That's a bit of a glaring non-corroboration, which may be -- may present a problem for the prosecution and I'm sure Mr. Jackson's attorneys will jump all over -- Miles. O'BRIEN: All right. Miguel Marquez there in Santa Maria.

Let's turn it over now to Jeff Toobin, who watched this wild scene unfold.

Jeff, it seems like we've shared quite a few wild scenes.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, indeed.

O'BRIEN: I remember that day when you and I were talking and all of a sudden Michael Jackson was on top of his vehicle, that SUV, doing a little moon walk for the crowd. And at that time I remember you distinctly saying, you know, he -- he's got to be careful because the judge is not going to take this well. Well, when you start adding up all these instances of mysterious disappearances from court, odd type of behavior outside of court, you've got to wonder what's on the mind of the judge and what shoe might drop in the near-term future.

TOOBIN: Well, there is a major shoe that is poised to drop because, remember, the judge didn't just register his displeasure this morning. He said, "I am revoking bail and I am forfeiting the bond of $3 million unless you are here in one hour."

Michael Jackson did not arrive within one hour. He got there, by my count, one hour and three minutes later. He was three minutes late. And the judge has not resolved what he's going to do about Jackson's bail status.

My guess is, given how these things work, this will be, simply, strike two. The day you were talking about, which we covered together, was the day of his arraignment, when he was both late and later danced on top of the hood of the -- the roof of the car. Now, he's got this second strike against him. I imagine it will result only in a severe warning. But it is also possible that he could simply lock Michael Jackson up.

O'BRIEN: All right. And we'll know about that today after the testimony? That's something that will occur away from the jury's view?

TOOBIN: Well, certainly the discussion of the sanction, if any, will take place outside the presence of the jury. What's interesting about how Judge Melville handled the situation, which is the way a lot of good trial judges work, is that he said, look, I do not want to waste the jury's time.

As soon as he got Jackson in, he got the jury in the box, got the witness on the stand, and started testimony. So he did not deal with the legal issue involving Jackson's bail status. He just wanted to get the testimony going, not to waste the jury's time anymore.

O'BRIEN: All right. Jeff Toobin, thanks for your insights, as always -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Ten days into the Lefkow murder investigation in Chicago, the focus is fixed on West Allis, Wisconsin. That Milwaukee suburb is where a Chicago man killed himself yesterday after a traffic cop pulled him over for a taillight problem.

What police reportedly found in Bart Ross' minivan strongly suggests, to say the very least, that Ross was involved in last week's murder of the husband and mother of federal Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow, at the very least, is what investigators are saying for the record. But Jim Warren has heard a lot more from his vantage point as deputy managing editor of the "Chicago Tribune."

Thanks for being with us, James.

JIM WARREN, DEPUTY MANAGING EDITOR, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Sure, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, let's talk about the alleged evidence. You have obviously reported so much more than we've even been able to report. So tell us what you know about Bart Ross at this stage.

WARREN: Well, we've reported that the man who committed suicide in West Allis, just north of -- just outside Milwaukee, had left hand- written notes which detailed matters about the killings which nobody in the public would have otherwise known, which did include a sort of cry of the heart as to how he somehow was a victim of the legal system and, specifically, Judge Lefkow, before whom he had a medical malpractice case.

She ruled against him. And in his mind he had lost everything in his life as a result of that case.

Now, it turns out -- talk about six degrees of separation, Kyra -- I just happen to have a mutual acquaintance with this gentleman who, it turns out, was an eastern European native, an electrical contractor, had changed his name. I'm not sure what his original name was. Indeed, had come up apparently with cancer of the jaw sometime in the 1990s, had undergone surgery at the University of Illinois Medical Center.

In his mind, it did not work. His jaw situation degenerated. He looked around for lawyers to file a case, he could not find a lawyer to take the case.

He then ultimately filed a federal court lawsuit which wound up in the court of Judge Lefkow, and he represented himself. And in late January she dismissed the lawsuit. And a letter that he subsequently also wrote to the NBC station here in Chicago, we believe that he wrote, it arrived yesterday, was signed by somebody with the same name, outlined not only his rage but, in rather chilling fashion, the purported detailing of the killings.

PHILLIPS: So, Jim, what's interesting is there was all this talk about Matthew Hale, the white supremacist now serving time for this alleged plot to kill Judge Lefkow. Now with this alleged evidence coming forward, and Bart Ross and this attempted suicide, does that clear Matthew Hale from being involved in this completely? And has there been any evidence that has come forward that's connected Bart Ross to any type of hate group or hate crime? WARREN: No, although we believe that there was some mention in his written comments he had and left behind in the car of Nazi war criminals, but do not know what the context is. So to answer your question, at this point we do not know if there was somebody else was involved in this, do not know if he had ties.

But on the surface, it would look like, given his legal history, given his huge frustration with, first, the medical system and the legal system and, certainly, what a mutual acquaintance, a fellow I know here in town says was his burning rage over the years, it would seem to -- that it was, like the Hale theory, an act of revenge, but not having to do with any white supremacist talk.

PHILLIPS: Well, your newspaper also reported that the bullets and the casings have created quite a puzzle for investigators. Why?

WARREN: Well, there have been a lot of conflicting reports about what was going on with the casings. At this point, we believe that there were multiple, and as many as 322 caliber shells found in this van in West Allis. We believe that they were very similar to the casings found in the home of Judge Lefkow.

Now, in the note that he may well have written, which arrived at the NBC channel yesterday, and that explicit detail which this person goes into about the murder, this person talks about one gun and firing two bullets into the head of each of his victims and claims -- and boy, does this get, as I said, chilling -- that he broke in sometime around 6:00 a.m. in the morning, and his plan was simply to wait until the judge showed up.

He encountered the husband, killed him. The judge's mother then could be heard asking what was up with you, Michael, something to that effect, Michael being the husband, and he then killed her, if the note sent to the local TV station yesterday was, indeed, by the same person and, was, indeed, accurate.

PHILLIPS: Wow. Pretty explosive new details. Jim Warren, deputy managing editor for the "Chicago Tribune," thanks so much for your time today.

WARREN: Sure, Kyra.

O'BRIEN: In a few moments we expect doctors from former President Clinton's medical team to give us a live update on his condition. His surgery ended within the last hour or so. We'll bring you that live news conference as soon as it happens.

Lots more ahead as well. Stay with us as LIVE FROM continues.

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PHILLIPS: Just want to let you know in about 15 minutes we're going to take you live to New York. We're expecting Bill Clinton's doctors to hold a news conference. Lost the signal there. Apologize about that. We will have it together once the doctors do take to the podium to tell you about the condition of Bill Clinton since his surgery this morning. We did talk with our Sanjay Gupta, and reports so far is that the former president is doing well. We'll bring you the doctors live as soon as they step up to that podium.

Now, more on the Michael Jackson trial. The singer arrives late to court, claiming back problems on the day that his young accuser will give more potentially damaging testimony. Well, could it be a legal ploy?

For analysis, we turn, of course, to our legal eagles. Drew Findling is a criminal defense attorney. Brenda Joy Bernstein is a former prosecutor and is now a criminal defense attorney here in Atlanta.

Great to have you both. BRENDA JOY BERNSTEIN, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Thanks for having us.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's star with you, B.J. Well, actually I want you both to respond to this.

Let's start with you. Just the whole production within the past hour.

BERNSTEIN: Wow, what a day. Isn't it crazy?

PHILLIPS: Exactly. The pajamas, the slippers, the walking slowly. I mean, what do you think?

BERNSTEIN: It's insane. I mean, if it were you and I, we would be in a lot of trouble. We would not be out of jail tonight.

It's one thing to have -- be late to court once. But remember, we've already had one incident with the doctor and the drama and holding off court. But this morning, that's just ridiculous. You know, if you're not in critical condition, then you should be there.

PHILLIPS: What's your first reaction, Drew?

DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's a disaster. It's a disaster because we try to live with the fiction that jurors don't take this into account. They receive an admonishment from the judge not to take it into consideration.

You can rest assured that jury is going back, they're thinking about it and talking about it. is clearly indicative of panic on Michael Jackson's part, whether it's on a conscious or subconscious level. He is panicking because his accuser is taking the stand and he's losing control a little bit.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. So do you think that this is actually -- I mean, if, indeed, this is sort of part of the game and he wants attention and wants people to feel sorry for him, you think it might have a reverse effect on what the jury might decide or think of him? BERNSTEIN: It really well could. I mean, especially the fact that he's in his pajamas still. I mean, from the time that you get from -- he has a whole entourage. Why hasn't he...

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PHILLIPS: We're not going to be showing up in front of millions of people in our pajamas.

BERNSTEIN: Exactly. And it's respect for jurors. I mean, they're having to miss months of work.

If anything, you know, if he is incarcerated tonight, we may watch a trial that went from predictions of several months to going much faster. So maybe the jury will enjoy that it will move faster.

PHILLIPS: Wow. OK.

The credibility of what we heard yesterday, the accuser and the accuser's brother, first impressions? What do you think, believable, solid? I mean, these are kids that have testified before. It's not like they're going into this situation cold, right?

BERNSTEIN: Right. I think look at the accuser thus far. From what I've heard, seems very credible. And particularly when you read his grand jury testimony. That's obviously available to us in advance.

And in terms of seizing on the fact that everything is not precisely the same, that's a strength for the prosecution. Because if it did sound like a cookie cutter, if it did sound exactly alike, then the defense attorney is going to say, aha, you've been coached.

PHILLIPS: What do you think, Drew?

FINDLING: I feel bad that Jacko had a panic today because I think it's a garbage prosecution. I think it's just another lotto mentality case, you know.

I go to a Hawks game here in Atlanta and I pray that Ron Artest is going to throw a punch at me so I can sue him. Well, that's what we live with right now.

We live with the fact that we have a family like this that hooked up with an overzealous prosecutor. They have gone after J.C. Penney. It's obvious and it's become clear they perjured themselves in that case. That resulted in a $150,000 settlement.

These people have used the system to financially benefit themselves. They were going out there looking for money for this poor young child earlier, and they're using the court system for it now. And I feel bad for Michael because he panicked, because he has a good defense.

PHILLIPS: Looking at what the accuser had gone to say yesterday, he said there were even times when Jackson seemed to be trying to avoid him at Neverland, dodging his phone calls, pretending to be away from the ranch during his visits when he was actually there. I mean, sounds kind of like a jealous child.

BERNSTEIN: Well, you've got to remember that with children who are subject to child molestation, they are tender. They are seeking...

PHILLIPS: Very needy.

BERNSTEIN: Yes, exactly. They need attention.

Here is a young boy who was suffering from cancer, who is getting the dream of his life to meet celebrities, to be around these kind of people. And if they withdraw from him, then that child is going to be needy. It doesn't mean that the child is not telling the truth.

PHILLIPS: Let me ask you this, too. The parents said it was OK for the boys to sleep in the bedroom. Shouldn't the parents be held accountable here? I mean, who in their right mind...

FINDLING: It's atrocious. I mean, you know, one of the things that I always contend, if Michael Jackson's defense team wants to win, which is the goal, they have to concede he's a freak. He is a freak.

His whole thing about holding children's hands, sleeping in bed with them, it is unacceptable in our society. And if you cling to that thought with the goal of winning the trial, and you accept that as part of your defense, and you combine it with the fact that these people should know that he's a freak and not be putting their son in a position where he's subject to this, except if you're looking for a payday down the road by making a false accusation, which apparently is what the defense is going to say here.

PHILLIPS: You sort of wonder how it's taken so long to get to this point, considering your feelings. He's quite an interesting character, to say the least, in watching his whole life.

FINDLING: But he can moon walk, and that's important.

PHILLIPS: That's true. He is the best moon walker in the country.

FINDLING: That's true.

PHILLIPS: I mean, are you surprised that it's turning into this or that it's taken this long or -- I mean, do you think there's any chance that he could be absolutely innocent?

BERNSTEIN: You know, there's always a chance. And that's why what's happening today and tomorrow is so critical. Because, in the end, in all of these cases, all of the things that Drew has talked about, about the mother, and all the other things surrounding him, it gets down to what the child says, and for a brief moment, the believeability and the honest city that either will come through or not come through with that child. And that's what's going to be critical.

FINDLING: I think it's -- I think it's evident that he is innocent. I think that with all of the children he has been subjected to, the only two to truly surface are, one, that took an unknown settlement for millions of dollars, and the other from a family that's out there searching for money from everybody that has money in the Hollywood community.

It's a little bit surprising to me that those are the only two victims. And to me, that's indicative of the fact that he is a freak. But he's not a pedophile.

PHILLIPS: Very interesting. Drew says he's innocent. All right.

B.J. Bernstein and Drew Findling, we're going to bring you guys back. Good stuff. Thank you.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, we're just a few minutes away from a live update from doctors who performed surgery on former President Bill Clinton. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as it happens.

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