CNN.com - Transcripts

Transcript Providers

Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Police Search for Atlanta Gunman

Aired March 11, 2005 - 13:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Right now, the search is on for a suspect after a judge, a court reporter and a deputy are shot dead at an Atlanta courthouse. We're following developments in this breaking story. Right now, police looking for this man.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN'S LIVE FROM starts right now.

The defense attorney critical of courthouse security is among the people we'll be talking to today. But let's just bring you up to date on what's going on.

An intensive manhunt all throughout the city of Atlanta as they look for the suspect involved in this multiple shooting at the Fulton County Superior Courthouse. Brian Nichols is the suspect. And he is, apparently, at loose in the city of Atlanta in a green vehicle. We'll get you that license plate number in a few moments.

Let's go to CNN's Gary Tuchman, who is close to the scene there at the Fulton County Superior Court.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, it's still a pretty tumultuous scene here, not only because of the large members -- members of the news media who are here, but there are still people who were inside the courthouse when this all happened who are coming out, many of them in tears, many of them in shock. And people are just kind of wandering by right now our camera. This gives an idea how chaotic this scene has been.

It happened four years ago inside that building behind me, the older building. That is the Fulton County Courthouse. It happened on the eighth floor where a fourth day of a rape trial was taking place. Brian Nichols was on charge for rape and kidnapping.

Somebody stepped on me and took my microphone. I'm going to put it back on while I'm talking to you. Gives us an idea of the chaos here.

But he was on the eighth floor with his trial. And then, all of a sudden, he sprung towards a deputy and grabbed a gun from the deputy and shot the deputy in the head. At that point, he held the courtroom hostage. Whether there was someone inside the courtroom with another gun, another deputy, we don't know. But it wasn't used. A short time later, this man, 33-year-old Brian Nichols shot the court reporter and then shot the judge, Judge Rowland Barnes. The court reporter and the judge were both killed.

He then walked down the steps of the courthouse onto the street here and tried to carjack a vehicle. At that point we are being told another sheriff's deputy came out, and that deputy, too, was shot by Nichols.

Nichols at that point got into a car inside this parking garage right next door. This is the underground parking garage. It's a huge garage that's used by people who work here in downtown Atlanta and tourists. We're right across the street from the state capitol, from the World of Coke Museum, where people from all over the country and world come. There's lots of tourists in this area.

We are told that this man, Brian Nichols, pistol-whipped someone who came out of a car, told the man to get in the trunk while he took the car. The man refused and Nichols just took the car and then took off.

For the last four hours authorities have been looking for him. We just talked to a deputy from the Georgia state patrol who says that more than 100 patrolmen and patrolwomen are on the streets, in the air in helicopters right now, looking. But they do not know where this person might have gone.

There have been tips in various areas, one tip came from the northern part of Fulton County about 20 miles north of here. But they have not found this man. They are searching his family, his friends.

But this man killed three people, wounded another. It is believed that the deputy inside the courtroom is the one who was wounded. The deputy on the street is the one who was killed.

A short time ago authorities held a news conference here at the Grady Hospital in Atlanta to talk about what had happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF MYRON FREEMAN, FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA: This is a very sad day in the -- in Fulton County. As I said, my prayers go out to the family. It's very tragic, but we're going to do everything we can to bring this person to justice. And we've got all the law enforcement agencies out. As I said before on a manhunt. And we're going to not rest until we find him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TUCHMAN: Many schools here in the Atlanta area, in the city and in the suburbs are in a lock down mode now. They want to protect the children, because they just don't know at this point where this man is.

Now, many people are not familiar with court operations, including people who have been walking by talking to us, are saying to us, why was this man inside the courthouse without handcuffs, without manacles? How was he able to go and grab a gun?

And what traditionally happens in our court system in the United States is during preliminary hearings, when there's not a jury present, these people wear inmate clothes. And they wear handcuffs if they're dangers, and they wear manacles on their legs if they're dangerous.

But during a trial, when the jury's there, you don't want to give the jury the impression that this person is guilty. And therefore, the people sit there in their street clothes, their best dress clothes. They do not wear handcuffs. They do not wear manacles. And the only security, traditionally, are the deputies who are carrying the guns. And it certainly did not work in this case.

Miles, back to you.

O'BRIEN: So Gary, let's just be as clear as we can about this. As far as we know, all of this occurred inside that courtroom. There wasn't a shooting -- in other words, the first attempt at commandeering a weapon didn't occur outside the courtroom, when the suspect would have been, perhaps, handcuffed and manacled?

TUCHMAN: What witnesses are telling us is that the first attempt to grab the gun happened either in the courtroom or in a room right next to the courtroom. But it was on the eighth floor of that courthouse building.

Three people apparently shot inside the courtroom, two of them killed. One deputy wounded. And then a witness is telling us the man came downstairs, the gunmen saw another deputy and shot and killed him on the street right behind me.

O'BRIEN: All right. And of course, any story like this, there's going to be a lot of conflicting information that comes out. We've given a lot of conflicting information on the vehicle that is being pursued right now. What is the latest that authorities are telling us about what they're looking for?

TUCHMAN: I just talked two minutes ago to a Georgia state trooper. And here's what he's telling me. They are looking for a green Honda Accord. However, they are not at all confident that that's the vehicle this man is still in. So as you drive throughout the Atlanta area, the electronic signs above the highways are flashing a license plate, flashing, "Look out for a green Honda Accord."

But if police just limit themselves to looking for that, police say they may be making a mistake. Because this man could be in any vehicle and he could be, unfortunately, right now, in any place.

O'BRIEN: All right. But we don't know of any additional reported carjackings at this point, correct?

TUCHMAN: We don't -- we don't know. We know that he's at least tried to take two vehicles. But it's not clear if he's only been in one or he's been in more. And the fact is, that's not entirely unexpected. It's a tragic day, a sad day, a confusing day. And right now police just don't know all the answers.

O'BRIEN: Gary Tuchman outside the courthouse there. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, a man who says he came face to face with suspect Brian Nichols is a tow -- tow truck driver and carjack victim. Deronta Franklin, he came in to sort of relive that ordeal.

I know it has been a rough day from you. And I'm amazed at how calm you are right now with us, Deronta. Take us back. You were waiting for a call this morning, right?

DERONTA FRANKLIN, CARJACK VICTIM: Yes.

PHILLIPS: All right. Take me from that point. Tell me what happened.

FRANKLIN: I was on the corner of Peach Street and Walls. And I seen a vehicle, an SUV come around the corner, sliding. And I was -- I was wondering, I said it's got to be a car chase going on or something. So he went over in the parking deck. A few minutes -- a few minutes after that...

PHILLIPS: So this was over by the courthouse, that parking deck by the courthouse?

FRANKLIN: It's right down -- it's right down by Fire Points.

PHILLIPS: All right. Not far from the courthouse.

FRANKLIN: Right. A couple seconds after that, a couple of police -- two police came up. And they was, like -- they was confused where he went. So I pointed to the parking deck. That's where he went into.

PHILLIPS: So here you are in your tow truck. And the suspect comes wheeling in in an SUV. Then you see two police cars coming up behind you and you actually said, "He went that way?"

FRANKLIN: Right.

PHILLIPS: OK. All right.

FRANKLIN: And after they got -- they proceeded to go in the parking deck after him. I walked to the edge of the parking deck. And -- and he busted on through the gate into the parking deck. So I walked back to the truck. And three more of the polices came up. They stopped there at the corner, like they was wondering where he went.

So I pointed back at the parking deck. So they went up in the parking deck after him. And a couple of seconds -- seemed like a couple of seconds after that, I was sitting back in the truck. A guy come up with a gun and pointed it at me and said, "Get out of the truck." I told him he could have the truck. PHILLIPS: So I'm going to bring a picture up of Brian Nichols right now, the suspect that right now is on the loose. Is this the man that put a gun for your face?

FRANKLIN: Yes, it is.

PHILLIPS: What was he wearing?

FRANKLIN: He a bluish green sweat suit on.

PHILLIPS: Was he wearing a hood?

FRANKLIN: No.

PHILLIPS: I mean, you could see his face?

FRANKLIN: Yes. You could see his face clear.

PHILLIPS: All right. So he's wearing a sweat suit. And was it a handgun, a rifle?

FRANKLIN: It was a handgun.

PHILLIPS: It was a handgun?

FRANKLIN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: So he put the gun in your face, said, "Get out of the car." Did he seem nervous? Did he seem angry? What was his demeanor?

FRANKLIN: No. He was calm and cool. He was like, just get out of the truck. I told him, "You can have the truck."

PHILLIPS: Wow. So I'm curious. Being a tow truck driver you probably come in contact with a bunch of -- you never know who you're going to come in contact with.

FRANKLIN: Right.

PHILLIPS: Is the philosophy, fine, take whatever you want. Just don't hurt me?

FRANKLIN: Right. That's it.

PHILLIPS: So you knew immediately, give him the truck.

FRANKLIN: Yes. Give up the truck.

PHILLIPS: Yes, so he hopped in. And did he take off?

FRANKLIN: Yes. He took off northbound and made a left-hand turn on Walter Street. And as I was waiting, I ran back to the deck to try to contact the polices. I seen another one coming up the street. And I just told him I got carjacked.

PHILLIPS: Wow. So has this ever happened to you before?

FRANKLIN: No.

PHILLIPS: Did you remain calm?

FRANKLIN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Because you don't want to take any risks?

FRANKLIN: No, no risks.

PHILLIPS: Well, it's amazing. It's amazing it happened to you. And I sure thank you for coming in and sharing your daily experience, not like the normal day of work.

FRANKLIN: No. No.

PHILLIPS: Deronta, thank you for being with us.

FRANKLIN: All right.

O'BRIEN: Judge Barnes had been hearing a rape and kidnapping retrial of the suspect, Brian Nichols, who reportedly had an unsettling habit of trying to stare down the jurors.

Renee Rockwell was a lawyer on an unrelated case who was heading into court this morning when the trouble broke out. Here's her interview with one of our affiliates, WSB.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RENEE ROCKWELL, LAWYER: (NO AUDIO)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: OK. We obviously don't have the audio worked out on that. We'll try to get it fixed, and we'll bring it to you a little bit later -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, let's talk about just court security. Dennis Scheib (ph) is another attorney who was also on the eighth floor of the Fulton County Courthouse at that fateful hour. He believes a tragedy like today's may have been inevitable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've told them for years the security up here wasn't good. There's too few deputies, too many inmates. The deputy have to get too close to the inmates, and they have guns on them when they do that. I said it for years. I spoke to the chief judge, the last chief judge we had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: All right. Roland W. Barnes was appointed to the superior court bench in '98, quickly established a reputation for grace under pressure. Among the news-making cases he presided over was the vehicular homicide case against NHL star Danny Heatley, a case that wrapped up just last month.

Attorney B.J. Bernstein and state court Judge Craig Schwall both knew Judge Barnes well.

B.J., I'd like to just begin with you. What are your thoughts today as you've had a chance to reflect for a few moments on the events that we've all seen transpire?

B.J. BERNSTEIN, ATTORNEY: This is just an incredibly tragic day. It's a loss, obviously, to the family but to the judicial system and to the Atlanta community. I mean, what you always want in a judge is someone who will be fair and impartial.

And you know, I realize that on the news all the time we're hearing things of the bad incidents of judges going out too far, going, you know, crazy in the courtroom and not letting people have their say. That's totally not what Judge Barnes was. He was exactly what you want in a jurist.

And it's just a complete -- it's a shock. I mean, everybody on my staff, the lawyers in my office, we have all been in shock this morning.

O'BRIEN: Judge Craig Schwall, you're now a state court judge, but you served as a magistrate with Judge Barnes. And I assume you have similar sentiments about him. It's amazing how much unanimity there is about what a good person the judge was.

JUDGE CRAIG SCHWALL, FULTON COUNTY STATE COURT: He was a fine a man and as fine a judge as you could ever have. He and I served as magistrate judges together, and he was -- he and I both were on a short list. I was on a short list for state court judge. He was on a short list for superior court judge in 1998 when Governor Miller appointed him superior court judge. And I think that it was unanimous amongst the bar and the bench that the right person was chosen for the job.

It's just a horrible tragedy to lose such a fine jurist and a sheriff's deputy and a wounded sheriff's deputy and a court reporter. And the -- the whole courthouse is in mourning. But the courthouse will never, ever be the same. There will never, ever be the same sense of security and family that we once had.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about the larger issue of security. B.J., I'd like to address this to you first. Did you have the sense, have you had the sense over the years that there were security gaps over there at that courthouse? And if there are things that -- some obvious things that should have been done that might have prevented this?

BERNSTEIN: I've always felt secure at that courthouse. You have to remember that when you enter the courthouse it's like going to the airport now, where you have to go through the metal detectors physically. You put your handbags, your briefcases, all your boxes through the conveyer belt for everything to be looked at.

I would always set off the -- the alarms with, you know, various jewelry or whatever you're wearing. And they're going to take a wand over you. So you did have a good feeling in terms of walking in that these folks were looking no outside weapons. So I never really had much fear...

O'BRIEN: Well, but that's the thing. That's the interesting thing to me. Outside weapons you mentioned.

You have to wonder if it is wise, just as you have inside a prison, where the guards themselves are not armed, purposefully, because being in close proximity to the prisoners actually creates more of a risk by having the weapons there. Have you thought much about that over the years?

BERNSTEIN: You know, over the years I've tried a number of cases where there's a lot of -- where you know, there are a lot of firearms in evidence. And there's a lot of caretaking to make sure that those firearms don't have any bullets or anything available so that no one can do anything.

Quite honestly, I've always felt comforted by the fact that there are usually two to three deputies in the courtroom and that they do have weapons because, you know, people are emotional. Things are going on in court that brings out, unfortunately, the worst in people. And it's always a possibility.

So I haven't been one to say, maybe -- I've never thought before today -- obviously, everybody is going to be rethinking everything after today's tragic events. But before, I actually felt comfortable with those deputies there.

O'BRIEN: Would you agree with that, Craig? Do you feel like the risk of introducing a live weapon into the courtroom, even if it is in the hands of a deputy, that that risk is worth the potential security that comes along with it?

SCHWALL: Well, you have to realize that the only people with weapons in the courtrooms, including all law enforcement, are sheriff's deputies and Fulton County marshals. The city police officers, Martin (ph) officers, Fulton County officers have to check their weapons. They'll know who has the weapons in case an incident occurs.

Now, somewhere between 250 and 400 inmates are transported to that courthouse every day. At any point in time you could have 20, 30, 40, 50 inmates, and if you had three deputies in the courtroom with no weapons, certainly, there could be a risk of the deputies being overcome.

It may be a situation where now that it's to be looked at and have more deputies and no weapons. I consider this to be something that is just unpredictable. I don't believe that it was inevitable. I just think that it's so shocking that it's like a 9/11. We just can't believe that it happened. O'BRIEN: Well, I guess the other question to go after, too. I'll go with you, Craig, first, then with B.J., is whole the issue of how they're handcuffed, leg shackles, all those sorts of things.

Obviously, when it gets time to put somebody before the jury, you don't want them appearing as if they're guilty.

SCHWALL: They do not.

O'BRIEN: Up to that point they should be treated in a way that you have to presume they mean harm, right?

SCHWALL: Right. It's my understanding that the inmates are shackled with their hands in front of them, shackled together, shackled with a group, and the violent, dangerous inmates have leg shackles. OK. I don't know what the circumstances were in this case, but that is the way it is, unless a jury is present.

O'BRIEN: B.J., would you agree, do they need to be a little tougher on how they shackle, how they handcuff, how they use leg irons, that kind of thing?

BERNSTEIN: You know, not necessarily, Miles. Because first of all, a lot of times violent incidents come from civil cases, not criminal cases. You know, when they're divorces, child custody issues, those kind of cases, people get violent there.

And then you also have to remember that a lot of offenses are nonviolent offenses. Today, I was on my way over to Fulton County for a client with a theft charge dealing with, quite candidly, a cell phone. That's not someone who should be subjected to shackles.

So we need to be careful here that we don't go over too far and give too much credence to giving, you know, something that's fairly drastic, which is shackling everybody coming into the courtroom.

O'BRIEN: All right. Appreciate both of your insights.

SCHWALL: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: B.J. Bernstein and Craig Schwall, thank you both on what is obviously a very tough day personally for you both -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, the deputy's holster was just like this one. Actually, it's one of these. We're going to talk to the individual who actually distributes these to the police and deputies in the Georgia area. We're going to talk about it with the expert just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Massive manhunt is under way in the Atlanta, Georgia, area for that suspect linked to that multiple shooting at Atlanta's Fulton County Superior Courthouse. We'll get the latest from one of our reporters at our affiliate station, WAGA.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... denied that the suspect had a known address out in that Roswell Road area. Have you heard anything at all that could indicate that perhaps they're around where the suspect has lived at some point in time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, prior to the activity that we've been looking at here for, I believe, a little more than an hour now right here in the area of Roswell Road near the Prado (ph) and 285, we had earlier gone to an area that was a presumed earlier address for this individual, Brian Nichols.

This was an area of Roswell where he lived previously, and we did go over that area earlier. There was a Roswell police vehicle there, but they did not have the kind of heavy police presence that we have seen down this way here just in the past hour or so.

Now, that area where we were looking earlier was the Wood Creek Apartments, and that is off of Holcum Bridge Road (ph), off of -- to the west of Georgia 400, a couple of -- several miles, actually, to the north of where we are now. That is the area where Brian Nichols presumably had an apartment at one point, but that is not the area where this active...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. That report came from one of our affiliates, WAGA. We thank them very much for that.

Let's get a further update on how the search is going. If you're driving a green Honda Accord in the city of Atlanta right now, I suspect you're not getting very far. There were multiple police checkpoints on the way between my home and here at CNN, which is very near the Fulton County Superior Court.

Gary Tuchman with an update. By the way, there is the license plate they suspect might be on the Accord with the suspect, Brian Nichols, inside: 6584 YN, Georgia tag. Having said that, police are saying could be another vehicle that he might have commandeered now. But nevertheless, that green Honda Accord still the focus.

Gary, what do you have for us?

TUCHMAN: Well, Miles, we can tell you right now here in downtown Atlanta right in the heart of the city, right next to the courthouse, the streets are reopening. People are now driving up and down the streets. Things are getting back to normal.

The fact is authorities do not believe that this man is in the area. You just saw that last report where they were looking where he may have once lived. That area is about 22 miles to the north of where we are, northern part of Fulton County. That's where they have been looking.

But we've talked to police, do you know where this guy is? And if they know, they are not telling us. It's now been four hours and 25 minutes since this occurred. And this man, who shot four people, killing three of them, including a judge in this courthouse behind me, is still on the loose.

We can't tell you -- there are many who are walking around here or are inside the courthouse who heard the shots. Many of them look like they were just in shock throughout much of this morning. We still see people who say they heard it or they saw it.

And they say what this man did is he grabbed the gun from one of the deputies who was inside the court and shot that deputy, later shot a court reporter, then shot the judge, then escaped outside this building, walked down the stairwell, ended up on Martin Luther King Boulevard, which is the street here in downtown Atlanta where a deputy encountered him, and he then shot that deputy. It's believed the deputy who was out here on the street was also killed, the third fatality. The deputy shot inside the courthouse is in critical condition right now in the hospital.

He carjacked at least two vehicles, though it's not clear which vehicle he's in right now. It is a green Honda Accord that is the primary target for police to be looking at. However, it's not clear if he's in that. Authorities are saying they just want to keep their eyes open.

And you're right, Miles, we both live in the Atlanta area. And you see as we were coming to work today signs warning people to be on the lookout for that car.

But at one point -- this is just a personal story -- at one point they were reportedly -- they were looking for a red Jeep. And I was driving into the downtown area in my red Jeep. And I quickly turned around knowing that the paranoia and the chaos of the time could result in perhaps someone shooting at me in a red Jeep just because at that time people were so scared.

Things have calmed down a bit. They're still on the lookout for this man.

O'BRIEN: I think that was a prudent decision to park your car. If you do a little bit of math here, Gary, four hours plus since the incident, assuming he got in whatever vehicle he did and started just heading away from Atlanta, could be in excess of 250 miles away from Atlanta now. And I presume as a result the search has expanded along these concentric circles?

TUCHMAN: We are absolutely sure, although police are not confirming that, authorities in Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, all points where this man could be right now, are also working this case.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Gary Tuchman outside the -- Atlanta's Fulton County Superior Courthouse. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Everybody talks about guns and bullets and bullet proof vests and metal detectors. But when it comes to what apparently happened today, the story may come down to holsters. And there's a whole lot more to holsters than most of us imagine.

Holsters are Jay Wallace's stock and trade. He runs a firm called Smyrna Police Distributors. He joins us here live on set. The reason why I've asked Jay to be here is because you distribute these holsters to police and sheriff's deputies all throughout Georgia and I know even beyond.

And let's just go ahead and narrow it down to -- you told me that deputy that was shot and killed, the other one injured, more than likely had either this holster or this holster, holsters that you sold to the department, correct?

JAY WALLACE, SMYRNA POLICE DISTRIBUTORS: Right. You have different levels of holsters. And most likely the one that they have -- because they purchased both of these -- would be the Safari Land 295, which is a threat level two holster.

PHILLIPS: OK. Now threat level two. I think, OK, that -- what exactly does that mean?

WALLACE: Threat level two holsters takes two positions to remove the firearm.

PHILLIPS: Two positions. All right. So if I were, let's say, the deputy that had the gun, I, of course, immediately just see a snap, so I'm going to unsnap it. I'm going to try and pull it out. Obviously, I can't.

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: So do I have to be an ex-convict to know how to take this out or is it pretty hard to know, unless you're a police officer, how to actually pull this gun out?

WALLACE: Well, it's not common knowledge how to pull that out. But it's not as difficult as, I suppose, the threat level three.

PHILLIPS: All right.

WALLACE: It can be done.

PHILLIPS: And I don't want to demonstrate how exactly you take this out. But do me a favor, just take it out for us. Maybe we can take the tight shot off. There we go. Good. Didn't give it away. But it into this one here. And this is a threat level three?

WALLACE: This is a threat level three. It's called the 070.

PHILLIPS: OK. And of course, looking down on it, if I saw it, I would see one snap and think I could pull it out. But obviously, I can't. OK. Why is this more advanced than threat level two?

WALLACE: Well, actually, there's two positions that have already been deactivated on this holster. And this would be when the officer is alerted that he's in danger or someone's in danger, he might have to use his firearm. And this is the position it would be in to where he could deactivate the last level and use this firearm.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. So this one you can actually deactivate?

WALLACE: Yes.

PHILLIPS: The officer has something else on him or her that can stop that gun...

WALLACE: It's knowledge of how the holster works.

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: It's repetition and using it and training.

PHILLIPS: OK. Now, looking at all the other types of holsters, threat level one, threat level two, let's say a SWAT officer versus a deputy that's in a courtroom, they never have the same type of holster? Is that right?

WALLACE: Well, a SWAT officer, they would have the time type of security, which would be their preference that they could use as far as the holster. But they wear their firearm on the leg...

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: ... further down, where it can be accessed differently than the individual officer in the courtroom.

PHILLIPS: Now, this one on the far end, this holster, you told me Atlanta police just bought how many of these?

WALLACE: Atlanta police just bought 1,800 of this -- this holster here. It's the Bianci (ph) 321.

PHILLIPS: And tell me about this one and why they bought so many of these and why this is a good holster.

WALLACE: Well, the way this holster works is, again, it's like the Safari Land 070, except it has -- it's a little more user -- more user friendly to the officer. And it's the newest innovation that Bianci (ph) has come out with. And they tested all the holsters, and this is one that they chose to go with.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. Are you surprised that someone would have been able to get a gun out of one of these holsters? I mean, how common is that?

WALLACE: Well, you know, at this point I don't think we're sure that they did take the firearm out of the holster.

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: It could be that the officer realized what was happening and went to take it out and then maybe it was taken away after that point.

PHILLIPS: That's an interesting point. The gun could already have been out...

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: ... and he was trying to save the life of the other deputy.

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: Jay Wallace, interesting stuff. Smyrna Police Distributors. We appreciate the show and tell. Thank you for your time.

WALLACE: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Imagine this scenario. You get out of your car at a parking garage and this is what happens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard shots. I see this guy running by. At that point we kind of panicked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: A witness describing what she saw at today's shooting at an Atlanta courthouse. The suspect still on the loose, as we've been telling you. We are covering all the latest developments in this story. More straight ahead.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired March 11, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Right now, the search is on for a suspect after a judge, a court reporter and a deputy are shot dead at an Atlanta courthouse. We're following developments in this breaking story. Right now, police looking for this man.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN'S LIVE FROM starts right now.

The defense attorney critical of courthouse security is among the people we'll be talking to today. But let's just bring you up to date on what's going on.

An intensive manhunt all throughout the city of Atlanta as they look for the suspect involved in this multiple shooting at the Fulton County Superior Courthouse. Brian Nichols is the suspect. And he is, apparently, at loose in the city of Atlanta in a green vehicle. We'll get you that license plate number in a few moments.

Let's go to CNN's Gary Tuchman, who is close to the scene there at the Fulton County Superior Court.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, it's still a pretty tumultuous scene here, not only because of the large members -- members of the news media who are here, but there are still people who were inside the courthouse when this all happened who are coming out, many of them in tears, many of them in shock. And people are just kind of wandering by right now our camera. This gives an idea how chaotic this scene has been.

It happened four years ago inside that building behind me, the older building. That is the Fulton County Courthouse. It happened on the eighth floor where a fourth day of a rape trial was taking place. Brian Nichols was on charge for rape and kidnapping.

Somebody stepped on me and took my microphone. I'm going to put it back on while I'm talking to you. Gives us an idea of the chaos here.

But he was on the eighth floor with his trial. And then, all of a sudden, he sprung towards a deputy and grabbed a gun from the deputy and shot the deputy in the head. At that point, he held the courtroom hostage. Whether there was someone inside the courtroom with another gun, another deputy, we don't know. But it wasn't used. A short time later, this man, 33-year-old Brian Nichols shot the court reporter and then shot the judge, Judge Rowland Barnes. The court reporter and the judge were both killed.

He then walked down the steps of the courthouse onto the street here and tried to carjack a vehicle. At that point we are being told another sheriff's deputy came out, and that deputy, too, was shot by Nichols.

Nichols at that point got into a car inside this parking garage right next door. This is the underground parking garage. It's a huge garage that's used by people who work here in downtown Atlanta and tourists. We're right across the street from the state capitol, from the World of Coke Museum, where people from all over the country and world come. There's lots of tourists in this area.

We are told that this man, Brian Nichols, pistol-whipped someone who came out of a car, told the man to get in the trunk while he took the car. The man refused and Nichols just took the car and then took off.

For the last four hours authorities have been looking for him. We just talked to a deputy from the Georgia state patrol who says that more than 100 patrolmen and patrolwomen are on the streets, in the air in helicopters right now, looking. But they do not know where this person might have gone.

There have been tips in various areas, one tip came from the northern part of Fulton County about 20 miles north of here. But they have not found this man. They are searching his family, his friends.

But this man killed three people, wounded another. It is believed that the deputy inside the courtroom is the one who was wounded. The deputy on the street is the one who was killed.

A short time ago authorities held a news conference here at the Grady Hospital in Atlanta to talk about what had happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF MYRON FREEMAN, FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA: This is a very sad day in the -- in Fulton County. As I said, my prayers go out to the family. It's very tragic, but we're going to do everything we can to bring this person to justice. And we've got all the law enforcement agencies out. As I said before on a manhunt. And we're going to not rest until we find him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TUCHMAN: Many schools here in the Atlanta area, in the city and in the suburbs are in a lock down mode now. They want to protect the children, because they just don't know at this point where this man is.

Now, many people are not familiar with court operations, including people who have been walking by talking to us, are saying to us, why was this man inside the courthouse without handcuffs, without manacles? How was he able to go and grab a gun?

And what traditionally happens in our court system in the United States is during preliminary hearings, when there's not a jury present, these people wear inmate clothes. And they wear handcuffs if they're dangers, and they wear manacles on their legs if they're dangerous.

But during a trial, when the jury's there, you don't want to give the jury the impression that this person is guilty. And therefore, the people sit there in their street clothes, their best dress clothes. They do not wear handcuffs. They do not wear manacles. And the only security, traditionally, are the deputies who are carrying the guns. And it certainly did not work in this case.

Miles, back to you.

O'BRIEN: So Gary, let's just be as clear as we can about this. As far as we know, all of this occurred inside that courtroom. There wasn't a shooting -- in other words, the first attempt at commandeering a weapon didn't occur outside the courtroom, when the suspect would have been, perhaps, handcuffed and manacled?

TUCHMAN: What witnesses are telling us is that the first attempt to grab the gun happened either in the courtroom or in a room right next to the courtroom. But it was on the eighth floor of that courthouse building.

Three people apparently shot inside the courtroom, two of them killed. One deputy wounded. And then a witness is telling us the man came downstairs, the gunmen saw another deputy and shot and killed him on the street right behind me.

O'BRIEN: All right. And of course, any story like this, there's going to be a lot of conflicting information that comes out. We've given a lot of conflicting information on the vehicle that is being pursued right now. What is the latest that authorities are telling us about what they're looking for?

TUCHMAN: I just talked two minutes ago to a Georgia state trooper. And here's what he's telling me. They are looking for a green Honda Accord. However, they are not at all confident that that's the vehicle this man is still in. So as you drive throughout the Atlanta area, the electronic signs above the highways are flashing a license plate, flashing, "Look out for a green Honda Accord."

But if police just limit themselves to looking for that, police say they may be making a mistake. Because this man could be in any vehicle and he could be, unfortunately, right now, in any place.

O'BRIEN: All right. But we don't know of any additional reported carjackings at this point, correct?

TUCHMAN: We don't -- we don't know. We know that he's at least tried to take two vehicles. But it's not clear if he's only been in one or he's been in more. And the fact is, that's not entirely unexpected. It's a tragic day, a sad day, a confusing day. And right now police just don't know all the answers.

O'BRIEN: Gary Tuchman outside the courthouse there. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, a man who says he came face to face with suspect Brian Nichols is a tow -- tow truck driver and carjack victim. Deronta Franklin, he came in to sort of relive that ordeal.

I know it has been a rough day from you. And I'm amazed at how calm you are right now with us, Deronta. Take us back. You were waiting for a call this morning, right?

DERONTA FRANKLIN, CARJACK VICTIM: Yes.

PHILLIPS: All right. Take me from that point. Tell me what happened.

FRANKLIN: I was on the corner of Peach Street and Walls. And I seen a vehicle, an SUV come around the corner, sliding. And I was -- I was wondering, I said it's got to be a car chase going on or something. So he went over in the parking deck. A few minutes -- a few minutes after that...

PHILLIPS: So this was over by the courthouse, that parking deck by the courthouse?

FRANKLIN: It's right down -- it's right down by Fire Points.

PHILLIPS: All right. Not far from the courthouse.

FRANKLIN: Right. A couple seconds after that, a couple of police -- two police came up. And they was, like -- they was confused where he went. So I pointed to the parking deck. That's where he went into.

PHILLIPS: So here you are in your tow truck. And the suspect comes wheeling in in an SUV. Then you see two police cars coming up behind you and you actually said, "He went that way?"

FRANKLIN: Right.

PHILLIPS: OK. All right.

FRANKLIN: And after they got -- they proceeded to go in the parking deck after him. I walked to the edge of the parking deck. And -- and he busted on through the gate into the parking deck. So I walked back to the truck. And three more of the polices came up. They stopped there at the corner, like they was wondering where he went.

So I pointed back at the parking deck. So they went up in the parking deck after him. And a couple of seconds -- seemed like a couple of seconds after that, I was sitting back in the truck. A guy come up with a gun and pointed it at me and said, "Get out of the truck." I told him he could have the truck. PHILLIPS: So I'm going to bring a picture up of Brian Nichols right now, the suspect that right now is on the loose. Is this the man that put a gun for your face?

FRANKLIN: Yes, it is.

PHILLIPS: What was he wearing?

FRANKLIN: He a bluish green sweat suit on.

PHILLIPS: Was he wearing a hood?

FRANKLIN: No.

PHILLIPS: I mean, you could see his face?

FRANKLIN: Yes. You could see his face clear.

PHILLIPS: All right. So he's wearing a sweat suit. And was it a handgun, a rifle?

FRANKLIN: It was a handgun.

PHILLIPS: It was a handgun?

FRANKLIN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: So he put the gun in your face, said, "Get out of the car." Did he seem nervous? Did he seem angry? What was his demeanor?

FRANKLIN: No. He was calm and cool. He was like, just get out of the truck. I told him, "You can have the truck."

PHILLIPS: Wow. So I'm curious. Being a tow truck driver you probably come in contact with a bunch of -- you never know who you're going to come in contact with.

FRANKLIN: Right.

PHILLIPS: Is the philosophy, fine, take whatever you want. Just don't hurt me?

FRANKLIN: Right. That's it.

PHILLIPS: So you knew immediately, give him the truck.

FRANKLIN: Yes. Give up the truck.

PHILLIPS: Yes, so he hopped in. And did he take off?

FRANKLIN: Yes. He took off northbound and made a left-hand turn on Walter Street. And as I was waiting, I ran back to the deck to try to contact the polices. I seen another one coming up the street. And I just told him I got carjacked.

PHILLIPS: Wow. So has this ever happened to you before?

FRANKLIN: No.

PHILLIPS: Did you remain calm?

FRANKLIN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Because you don't want to take any risks?

FRANKLIN: No, no risks.

PHILLIPS: Well, it's amazing. It's amazing it happened to you. And I sure thank you for coming in and sharing your daily experience, not like the normal day of work.

FRANKLIN: No. No.

PHILLIPS: Deronta, thank you for being with us.

FRANKLIN: All right.

O'BRIEN: Judge Barnes had been hearing a rape and kidnapping retrial of the suspect, Brian Nichols, who reportedly had an unsettling habit of trying to stare down the jurors.

Renee Rockwell was a lawyer on an unrelated case who was heading into court this morning when the trouble broke out. Here's her interview with one of our affiliates, WSB.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RENEE ROCKWELL, LAWYER: (NO AUDIO)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: OK. We obviously don't have the audio worked out on that. We'll try to get it fixed, and we'll bring it to you a little bit later -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, let's talk about just court security. Dennis Scheib (ph) is another attorney who was also on the eighth floor of the Fulton County Courthouse at that fateful hour. He believes a tragedy like today's may have been inevitable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've told them for years the security up here wasn't good. There's too few deputies, too many inmates. The deputy have to get too close to the inmates, and they have guns on them when they do that. I said it for years. I spoke to the chief judge, the last chief judge we had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: All right. Roland W. Barnes was appointed to the superior court bench in '98, quickly established a reputation for grace under pressure. Among the news-making cases he presided over was the vehicular homicide case against NHL star Danny Heatley, a case that wrapped up just last month.

Attorney B.J. Bernstein and state court Judge Craig Schwall both knew Judge Barnes well.

B.J., I'd like to just begin with you. What are your thoughts today as you've had a chance to reflect for a few moments on the events that we've all seen transpire?

B.J. BERNSTEIN, ATTORNEY: This is just an incredibly tragic day. It's a loss, obviously, to the family but to the judicial system and to the Atlanta community. I mean, what you always want in a judge is someone who will be fair and impartial.

And you know, I realize that on the news all the time we're hearing things of the bad incidents of judges going out too far, going, you know, crazy in the courtroom and not letting people have their say. That's totally not what Judge Barnes was. He was exactly what you want in a jurist.

And it's just a complete -- it's a shock. I mean, everybody on my staff, the lawyers in my office, we have all been in shock this morning.

O'BRIEN: Judge Craig Schwall, you're now a state court judge, but you served as a magistrate with Judge Barnes. And I assume you have similar sentiments about him. It's amazing how much unanimity there is about what a good person the judge was.

JUDGE CRAIG SCHWALL, FULTON COUNTY STATE COURT: He was a fine a man and as fine a judge as you could ever have. He and I served as magistrate judges together, and he was -- he and I both were on a short list. I was on a short list for state court judge. He was on a short list for superior court judge in 1998 when Governor Miller appointed him superior court judge. And I think that it was unanimous amongst the bar and the bench that the right person was chosen for the job.

It's just a horrible tragedy to lose such a fine jurist and a sheriff's deputy and a wounded sheriff's deputy and a court reporter. And the -- the whole courthouse is in mourning. But the courthouse will never, ever be the same. There will never, ever be the same sense of security and family that we once had.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about the larger issue of security. B.J., I'd like to address this to you first. Did you have the sense, have you had the sense over the years that there were security gaps over there at that courthouse? And if there are things that -- some obvious things that should have been done that might have prevented this?

BERNSTEIN: I've always felt secure at that courthouse. You have to remember that when you enter the courthouse it's like going to the airport now, where you have to go through the metal detectors physically. You put your handbags, your briefcases, all your boxes through the conveyer belt for everything to be looked at.

I would always set off the -- the alarms with, you know, various jewelry or whatever you're wearing. And they're going to take a wand over you. So you did have a good feeling in terms of walking in that these folks were looking no outside weapons. So I never really had much fear...

O'BRIEN: Well, but that's the thing. That's the interesting thing to me. Outside weapons you mentioned.

You have to wonder if it is wise, just as you have inside a prison, where the guards themselves are not armed, purposefully, because being in close proximity to the prisoners actually creates more of a risk by having the weapons there. Have you thought much about that over the years?

BERNSTEIN: You know, over the years I've tried a number of cases where there's a lot of -- where you know, there are a lot of firearms in evidence. And there's a lot of caretaking to make sure that those firearms don't have any bullets or anything available so that no one can do anything.

Quite honestly, I've always felt comforted by the fact that there are usually two to three deputies in the courtroom and that they do have weapons because, you know, people are emotional. Things are going on in court that brings out, unfortunately, the worst in people. And it's always a possibility.

So I haven't been one to say, maybe -- I've never thought before today -- obviously, everybody is going to be rethinking everything after today's tragic events. But before, I actually felt comfortable with those deputies there.

O'BRIEN: Would you agree with that, Craig? Do you feel like the risk of introducing a live weapon into the courtroom, even if it is in the hands of a deputy, that that risk is worth the potential security that comes along with it?

SCHWALL: Well, you have to realize that the only people with weapons in the courtrooms, including all law enforcement, are sheriff's deputies and Fulton County marshals. The city police officers, Martin (ph) officers, Fulton County officers have to check their weapons. They'll know who has the weapons in case an incident occurs.

Now, somewhere between 250 and 400 inmates are transported to that courthouse every day. At any point in time you could have 20, 30, 40, 50 inmates, and if you had three deputies in the courtroom with no weapons, certainly, there could be a risk of the deputies being overcome.

It may be a situation where now that it's to be looked at and have more deputies and no weapons. I consider this to be something that is just unpredictable. I don't believe that it was inevitable. I just think that it's so shocking that it's like a 9/11. We just can't believe that it happened. O'BRIEN: Well, I guess the other question to go after, too. I'll go with you, Craig, first, then with B.J., is whole the issue of how they're handcuffed, leg shackles, all those sorts of things.

Obviously, when it gets time to put somebody before the jury, you don't want them appearing as if they're guilty.

SCHWALL: They do not.

O'BRIEN: Up to that point they should be treated in a way that you have to presume they mean harm, right?

SCHWALL: Right. It's my understanding that the inmates are shackled with their hands in front of them, shackled together, shackled with a group, and the violent, dangerous inmates have leg shackles. OK. I don't know what the circumstances were in this case, but that is the way it is, unless a jury is present.

O'BRIEN: B.J., would you agree, do they need to be a little tougher on how they shackle, how they handcuff, how they use leg irons, that kind of thing?

BERNSTEIN: You know, not necessarily, Miles. Because first of all, a lot of times violent incidents come from civil cases, not criminal cases. You know, when they're divorces, child custody issues, those kind of cases, people get violent there.

And then you also have to remember that a lot of offenses are nonviolent offenses. Today, I was on my way over to Fulton County for a client with a theft charge dealing with, quite candidly, a cell phone. That's not someone who should be subjected to shackles.

So we need to be careful here that we don't go over too far and give too much credence to giving, you know, something that's fairly drastic, which is shackling everybody coming into the courtroom.

O'BRIEN: All right. Appreciate both of your insights.

SCHWALL: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: B.J. Bernstein and Craig Schwall, thank you both on what is obviously a very tough day personally for you both -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, the deputy's holster was just like this one. Actually, it's one of these. We're going to talk to the individual who actually distributes these to the police and deputies in the Georgia area. We're going to talk about it with the expert just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Massive manhunt is under way in the Atlanta, Georgia, area for that suspect linked to that multiple shooting at Atlanta's Fulton County Superior Courthouse. We'll get the latest from one of our reporters at our affiliate station, WAGA.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... denied that the suspect had a known address out in that Roswell Road area. Have you heard anything at all that could indicate that perhaps they're around where the suspect has lived at some point in time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, prior to the activity that we've been looking at here for, I believe, a little more than an hour now right here in the area of Roswell Road near the Prado (ph) and 285, we had earlier gone to an area that was a presumed earlier address for this individual, Brian Nichols.

This was an area of Roswell where he lived previously, and we did go over that area earlier. There was a Roswell police vehicle there, but they did not have the kind of heavy police presence that we have seen down this way here just in the past hour or so.

Now, that area where we were looking earlier was the Wood Creek Apartments, and that is off of Holcum Bridge Road (ph), off of -- to the west of Georgia 400, a couple of -- several miles, actually, to the north of where we are now. That is the area where Brian Nichols presumably had an apartment at one point, but that is not the area where this active...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. That report came from one of our affiliates, WAGA. We thank them very much for that.

Let's get a further update on how the search is going. If you're driving a green Honda Accord in the city of Atlanta right now, I suspect you're not getting very far. There were multiple police checkpoints on the way between my home and here at CNN, which is very near the Fulton County Superior Court.

Gary Tuchman with an update. By the way, there is the license plate they suspect might be on the Accord with the suspect, Brian Nichols, inside: 6584 YN, Georgia tag. Having said that, police are saying could be another vehicle that he might have commandeered now. But nevertheless, that green Honda Accord still the focus.

Gary, what do you have for us?

TUCHMAN: Well, Miles, we can tell you right now here in downtown Atlanta right in the heart of the city, right next to the courthouse, the streets are reopening. People are now driving up and down the streets. Things are getting back to normal.

The fact is authorities do not believe that this man is in the area. You just saw that last report where they were looking where he may have once lived. That area is about 22 miles to the north of where we are, northern part of Fulton County. That's where they have been looking.

But we've talked to police, do you know where this guy is? And if they know, they are not telling us. It's now been four hours and 25 minutes since this occurred. And this man, who shot four people, killing three of them, including a judge in this courthouse behind me, is still on the loose.

We can't tell you -- there are many who are walking around here or are inside the courthouse who heard the shots. Many of them look like they were just in shock throughout much of this morning. We still see people who say they heard it or they saw it.

And they say what this man did is he grabbed the gun from one of the deputies who was inside the court and shot that deputy, later shot a court reporter, then shot the judge, then escaped outside this building, walked down the stairwell, ended up on Martin Luther King Boulevard, which is the street here in downtown Atlanta where a deputy encountered him, and he then shot that deputy. It's believed the deputy who was out here on the street was also killed, the third fatality. The deputy shot inside the courthouse is in critical condition right now in the hospital.

He carjacked at least two vehicles, though it's not clear which vehicle he's in right now. It is a green Honda Accord that is the primary target for police to be looking at. However, it's not clear if he's in that. Authorities are saying they just want to keep their eyes open.

And you're right, Miles, we both live in the Atlanta area. And you see as we were coming to work today signs warning people to be on the lookout for that car.

But at one point -- this is just a personal story -- at one point they were reportedly -- they were looking for a red Jeep. And I was driving into the downtown area in my red Jeep. And I quickly turned around knowing that the paranoia and the chaos of the time could result in perhaps someone shooting at me in a red Jeep just because at that time people were so scared.

Things have calmed down a bit. They're still on the lookout for this man.

O'BRIEN: I think that was a prudent decision to park your car. If you do a little bit of math here, Gary, four hours plus since the incident, assuming he got in whatever vehicle he did and started just heading away from Atlanta, could be in excess of 250 miles away from Atlanta now. And I presume as a result the search has expanded along these concentric circles?

TUCHMAN: We are absolutely sure, although police are not confirming that, authorities in Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, all points where this man could be right now, are also working this case.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Gary Tuchman outside the -- Atlanta's Fulton County Superior Courthouse. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Everybody talks about guns and bullets and bullet proof vests and metal detectors. But when it comes to what apparently happened today, the story may come down to holsters. And there's a whole lot more to holsters than most of us imagine.

Holsters are Jay Wallace's stock and trade. He runs a firm called Smyrna Police Distributors. He joins us here live on set. The reason why I've asked Jay to be here is because you distribute these holsters to police and sheriff's deputies all throughout Georgia and I know even beyond.

And let's just go ahead and narrow it down to -- you told me that deputy that was shot and killed, the other one injured, more than likely had either this holster or this holster, holsters that you sold to the department, correct?

JAY WALLACE, SMYRNA POLICE DISTRIBUTORS: Right. You have different levels of holsters. And most likely the one that they have -- because they purchased both of these -- would be the Safari Land 295, which is a threat level two holster.

PHILLIPS: OK. Now threat level two. I think, OK, that -- what exactly does that mean?

WALLACE: Threat level two holsters takes two positions to remove the firearm.

PHILLIPS: Two positions. All right. So if I were, let's say, the deputy that had the gun, I, of course, immediately just see a snap, so I'm going to unsnap it. I'm going to try and pull it out. Obviously, I can't.

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: So do I have to be an ex-convict to know how to take this out or is it pretty hard to know, unless you're a police officer, how to actually pull this gun out?

WALLACE: Well, it's not common knowledge how to pull that out. But it's not as difficult as, I suppose, the threat level three.

PHILLIPS: All right.

WALLACE: It can be done.

PHILLIPS: And I don't want to demonstrate how exactly you take this out. But do me a favor, just take it out for us. Maybe we can take the tight shot off. There we go. Good. Didn't give it away. But it into this one here. And this is a threat level three?

WALLACE: This is a threat level three. It's called the 070.

PHILLIPS: OK. And of course, looking down on it, if I saw it, I would see one snap and think I could pull it out. But obviously, I can't. OK. Why is this more advanced than threat level two?

WALLACE: Well, actually, there's two positions that have already been deactivated on this holster. And this would be when the officer is alerted that he's in danger or someone's in danger, he might have to use his firearm. And this is the position it would be in to where he could deactivate the last level and use this firearm.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. So this one you can actually deactivate?

WALLACE: Yes.

PHILLIPS: The officer has something else on him or her that can stop that gun...

WALLACE: It's knowledge of how the holster works.

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: It's repetition and using it and training.

PHILLIPS: OK. Now, looking at all the other types of holsters, threat level one, threat level two, let's say a SWAT officer versus a deputy that's in a courtroom, they never have the same type of holster? Is that right?

WALLACE: Well, a SWAT officer, they would have the time type of security, which would be their preference that they could use as far as the holster. But they wear their firearm on the leg...

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: ... further down, where it can be accessed differently than the individual officer in the courtroom.

PHILLIPS: Now, this one on the far end, this holster, you told me Atlanta police just bought how many of these?

WALLACE: Atlanta police just bought 1,800 of this -- this holster here. It's the Bianci (ph) 321.

PHILLIPS: And tell me about this one and why they bought so many of these and why this is a good holster.

WALLACE: Well, the way this holster works is, again, it's like the Safari Land 070, except it has -- it's a little more user -- more user friendly to the officer. And it's the newest innovation that Bianci (ph) has come out with. And they tested all the holsters, and this is one that they chose to go with.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. Are you surprised that someone would have been able to get a gun out of one of these holsters? I mean, how common is that?

WALLACE: Well, you know, at this point I don't think we're sure that they did take the firearm out of the holster.

PHILLIPS: OK.

WALLACE: It could be that the officer realized what was happening and went to take it out and then maybe it was taken away after that point.

PHILLIPS: That's an interesting point. The gun could already have been out...

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: ... and he was trying to save the life of the other deputy.

WALLACE: Right.

PHILLIPS: Jay Wallace, interesting stuff. Smyrna Police Distributors. We appreciate the show and tell. Thank you for your time.

WALLACE: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Imagine this scenario. You get out of your car at a parking garage and this is what happens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard shots. I see this guy running by. At that point we kind of panicked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: A witness describing what she saw at today's shooting at an Atlanta courthouse. The suspect still on the loose, as we've been telling you. We are covering all the latest developments in this story. More straight ahead.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com