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Live From...
Atlanta Recovers from Courthouse Shooting Tragedy
Aired March 14, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, SURVIVED HOSTAGE ORDEAL: I didn't want to die. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: A brave woman survives after held captive by a man wanted in the Atlanta courthouse killings. This hour, how her situation was eerily similar to the alleged assault case Nicholas was originally on trial for.
CAROL LIN, CO-HOST: And what is next for Brian Nichols? He was already on trial for rape. And after Friday's shooting rampage, he'll likely face charges in four murders.
PHILLIPS: Also ahead this hour, grief at the courthouse. The people shot were co-worker and friends. This hour, we'll talk with the chaplain and counselor comforting the men and women who have to get back to work.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.
LIN: And I'm Carol Lin, in for Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL HOWARD, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We plan to charge him with the murders of the four Fulton County residents. We plan to charge him with a number of aggravated assaults, carjackings. It's going to be a very large indictment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Atlanta's district attorney contemplates Brian Nichols' future. And one key question in particular.
Meanwhile, Nichols' last alleged murder victim makes his final journey home to North Carolina. David Wilhelm to shot to death in the house he was building in Atlanta's Buckhead community Friday night.
But it's what happened inside an apartment some 20 miles away over the course of many hours that changed the course of a manhunt. A captive's courage, a fugitive's peaceful capture, captivating a nation. Now we'll explore many life or death issues in the hour ahead, beginning with the restoration of order at the Fulton County Courthouse.
CNN's Kimberly Osias is there -- Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, I'll tell you; it is back to work as normal, as can be expected. Obviously, that is a euphemism, given the grisly shooting that took place on Friday some 75 hours ago.
Just a little while ago I spoke to a couple of deputies. Obviously, for them, this is more than just an incredible news story. It is very, very personal and very poignant. They say they are here. They are working because they have a job to do and that is what they are going to do.
Some of them are availing themselves of a private memorial service that is going on with the chaplain, with the Fulton County chaplain today. Tomorrow there will be a public memorial service for individuals that feel called to be here, feel moved to grieve these victims.
Of course, we are speaking now of four victims, the first being superior court Judge Rowland Barnes, a relatively new superior court judge and one that was highly esteemed, certainly, in legal circles that I have heard of.
We are speaking about his court reporter, Julie Ann Brandau. The pair were known to be incredibly gracious, extending southern hospitality, baking baked goods for jurors, in fact.
Also, Sergeant Hoyt Teasley. One of the deputies that I just spoke with said he went to high school with this man. Stellar, stand- up guy, really dedicated to his job.
And also U.S. Immigrations Officer David Wilhelm, the last known victim.
Of course, they are reviewing security protocols and procedures, as they will be for the next several days. As far as the man believed to be behind all of this, the accused, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, he is in the federal penitentiary. He is not going to court today. The earliest he could be in court is tomorrow.
But, Kyra, the story of the day truly is this young woman, this young widow, a single mother of a 5-year-old who is being touted as an incredible hero. She was a hostage of Mr. Nichols. And for some eight hours, she did an amazing job really establishing rapport with him, humanizing herself to him, testifying to him, reading from a very popular book in spiritual circles, as well as secular circles, as well, called "A Purpose-Driven Life" -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And we're going to talk more about her and that book later in the hour. Kimberly Osias outside the courthouse, thank you.
LIN: Well, the head of the county SWAT team that finally took Nichols into custody calls the woman who turned him in a remarkable lady. Her name is Ashley Smith. She's 26 years old and a widow and a mother of one who says Nichols himself called her an angel sent from God.
Now she talked with reporters last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: I started walking to my door, and I felt really, really scared. I -- so I put my key in the door and I unlocked it, and I turned around and he was right there. And I started to scream, and he put a gun to my side and he said, "Don't scream. If you don't scream, I won't hurt you."
So I said, "All right. OK. I won't scream."
We went in the house. And he shut and locked the door behind us. He told me to go into the bathroom. So I went in the bathroom. He followed me to the bathroom. And he said, "Do you know who I am?"
I said, "No." Because he had a hat on.
And then he took his hat off. And he said, "Now do you now who I am?"
And I said, "Yes, I know who you are. Please, don't hurt me. Just, please, don't hurt me. I have a 5-year-old little girl. Please don't hurt me."
He said, "I'm not going to hurt you if you just do what I say."
I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me, no.
My husband died four years ago, and I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. And if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset. He still told me no.
But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was, and he said, "Maybe, maybe I'll let you go. Just maybe. We'll see how things go."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Clearly, we're going to hear much more from Ashley Smith, including her lesson in faith, in this hour of LIVE FROM. In our next hour, actually, we are going to replay her news conference in its entirety, the raw tape, so you can hear her story, the entire story for yourself -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, at least two security cameras captured Brian Nichols in action many hours before police did.
Surveillance video from a parking garage shows Nichols after the courthouse rampage and at least two alleged carjackings and before he apparently slipped onto the subway and melted into the population. Law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks joins me now with more on the manhunt, the capture and the brutal crimes that Nichols was on trial for to begin with. We'll get to the surveillance cameras in a minute, but let's talk about the fact that he was on trial for rape.
MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.
PHILLIPS: Here's what's interesting. The detective faxed me, actually, over the police report. And the M.O.'s are exactly the same, if you look at what the police report said with his girlfriend, who was on trial for rape, and it says that she stated that Mr. Nichols duct taped her wrists, knees and feet together. And she stated that Mr. Nichols placed her into the bathtub and then left the condo. Well, that's exactly what happened to Ashley Smith.
BROOKS: Exactly. When you showed me that this morning, it was chilling to hear her account last night and then to read that report. And the similarities is unbelievable. And you go back and you say, "Well, what would make him do this?
You know, was it something that he was familiar with? Is there something" -- you were saying that your sources were telling you that he has a bipolar illness.
PHILLIPS: They were saying that before the alleged rape, that this couple never had any problems.
BROOKS: Eight years.
PHILLIPS: Yes. No physical abuse, no verbal abuse.
BROOKS: Right.
PHILLIPS: And that he snapped.
BROOKS: Exactly.
PHILLIPS: And that he was bipolar. Well, so, why wouldn't he kill these women? He had no problem allegedly killing these other people.
BROOKS: Right.
PHILLIPS: Why would he duct tape, throw them in the tub, each of the women and not kill either one of them?
BROOKS: It's a lot easier to kill a stranger than it is someone who is close to you, someone you've developed a bond -- developed a bond with.
You know, we talked -- we heard Ashley was talking about her experiences. We've heard that she's had a born-again Christian and she's -- she was reading to him about forgiveness, these kind of things.
And then with -- for an eight-year relationship, and tying this person up and putting them in the bathtub. I mean, Ashley Smith is extremely, extremely heroic but also extremely lucky woman. Apparently her personal skills -- I was hearing from a source close to her family. He says that she's known to have just unbelievable personal skills, to be able to talk to anyone. And it definitely worked here. I mean she was scared to death.
PHILLIPS: A lesson to learn?
BROOKS: A lesson to learn.
PHILLIPS: Say this happens to you. Humanize yourself. Connect somehow with the person that's holding you hostage.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: And you have a better chance of surviving.
BROOKS: I was a hostage negotiator for almost 22 years. And I can tell you, people who have survived hostage situations -- he was with her for eight hours. They do. They try to humanize themselves. And talk to them.
As a negotiator, you try to humanize it with the person you're dealing with inside who's holding the hostages. You try to talk about your family, his family. You're not going to see them ever again, these kind of things. It's all this in crisis intervention is what you try to do, humanize yourself.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's go back to the courthouse now.
BROOKS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: And, you know, if you were to sit here and look at everything that went down from a law enforcement perspective, there were a lot of mistakes made. And you were talking about specifically what happened inside the courthouse when Nichols and this deputy had contact and the gun was taken.
What are you -- what are you understanding now about what was caught on tape, what wasn't done properly, what happened inside that courthouse?
BROOKS: What we're hearing now, Kyra, is the room, the holding room where the gun was taken from the female deputy, and she was hit by Nichols.
Apparently, there were two cameras in that room that were supposed to be being monitored by other deputies. They were not on their post. The cameras were not being monitored.
Would this have made a difference? Some people say, "Well, maybe, maybe not." I think it would have. No. 1, it would have gotten a quicker response. They would have seen the deputy, known what was going on, get a quicker response so this -- so Nichols grabbed her run and then went running through the courthouse. PHILLIPS: So every time a deputy is with someone who's on trial, they're -- they're supposed to be in a holding room with cameras going. They're supposed to be monitored by other deputies.
BROOKS: Well, you've got -- you've got the elevator. You've got the holding room. You've got cells, holding cells...
PHILLIPS: All supposed to be monitored.
BROOKS: ... all being monitored, supposed to be monitored. You know, Fulton County Sheriff's Office, they do a great job. But there have been problems in the sheriff's office going back over the last two years.
PHILLIPS: There's a talk about a cut in budget, resources.
BROOKS: Right. And they had problems with the sheriff. She was out. And then there was an interim person in who used to be the special agent in charge of the FBI field office here, who in placed in there to kind of run things, try to get things back in order. Then the new sheriff was elected, and he's only been in office for two months. There's a lot of things they have to do to go back and take a look at what they're doing now.
But, you know, there was all their other mistakes. I talked to a high-ranking Atlanta Police Department official today. And he says, yes, we did a good job, but there were mistakes. They did catch the person. That's the bottom line.
Now they have to take a look at their court security. Was there complacency? Were people supposed to be -- not where they're supposed to be?
And I can tell you one thing, Kyra, I was out of town this weekend. But I've been hearing all news -- different news...
PHILLIPS: Accounts.
BROOKS: ... shows about they're asking what can we do in our community to make sure this doesn't happen?
PHILLIPS: Yes.
BROOKS: Every place department, every sheriff's office, every law enforcement community, they're going to be taking a look to make sure this doesn't happen within their system.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's going to be interesting to hear from the sheriff, too.
BROOKS: Yes, it will be.
PHILLIPS: Mike Brooks, thank you so much.
BROOKS: Thank you. PHILLIPS: Well, tonight at 10 Eastern, from the courthouse chaos to silent surrender, "26 HOURS: INSIDE THE ATLANTA MANHUNT." Tonight, 10 Eastern, only on CNN.
LIN: Well, Brian Nichols faces, potentially, dozens of charges, including multiple counts of murder. So straight ahead on LIVE FROM, I'm going to talk with an Atlanta attorney about the complex legal situation. Why haven't prosecutors decided to charge him with death? And what happens to the original rape trial?
Also, later on LIVE FROM, an Atlanta area woman, Ashley Smith, uses her faith and a best-selling book to defuse a potentially deadly situation. So we are going to go in-depth on that book, "The Purpose- Driven Life," straight ahead on LIVE FROM.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: He is the prime suspect in the killings of four people, plus assorted assaults and carjackings. And in a model of understatement, you might say, an Atlanta prosecutor says Brian Nichols faces a rather large indictment.
But where to begin and what happens to the rape case that brought Brian Nicholas into that Atlanta courtroom in the first place? Atlanta attorney B.J. Bernstein joins me to sort all of this out.
So thank you time -- for spending your time here, because I know you were down at a courthouse inside the jail, a different facility.
B.J. BERNSTEIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At the Fulton County. I was at the Fulton County today.
LIN: Fulton County. What was it like to be down there? Did you see any changes?
BERNSTEIN: A little bit. First of all, all the deputies are very somber. They all have the black mat, you know, across their badge. And the security is definitely heightened. You know, I was back in the courtroom in the back with the inmates where the public can't get in but lawyers can. There were six deputies there. None of them had guns.
LIN: Six as opposed to how many how many would be on a normal day?
BERNSTEIN: Maybe, like, three or four. So it looked like...
LIN: Virtually double the number.
BERNSTEIN: Absolutely. And they were there. They were paying very close attention to every one. Every one came in shackled, all together. They were never unshackled. They all sat there. So definitely, you know, people are concerned. And then in talking to the deputies, you know, I've gotten to know them. Even though I'm a criminal defense lawyer, they get to be friends. You see them in court. And they wanted, you know, folks to know that it's not every one who's not doing their job, you know, that there are a lot of people who are.
LIN: Did they give you any theories about...
BERNSTEIN: That there are good things happening.
LIN: Did they give you any feedback behind the scenes about how they felt what went wrong? Why were those security lapses?
BERNSTEIN: No, they weren't talking about that right now. I mean, I think that their bosses have them, you know, doing what they're suppose to do and not really talking with members of the public or the bar about that right now.
LIN: Right. Were you scared going into the court? You say you were standing with the inmates.
BERNSTEIN: You know, I'm used to that. I mean that's part of what I do day in and day out. And you can't change just because of this happening.
LIN: Right.
BERNSTEIN: I thing the concern now is that we overreact. You know, nothing -- as the story has been revealing, CNN's been working on it this weekend. It changes, what we're finding out as to the facts and where the problems are.
LIN: Right. All right. Fair enough. Let's talk about what the charges may be. He's being held on a firearms charge. He's going to be charged with four murders, a variety of carjackings. Why the lack of specificity? Why can't prosecutors come forward and say, "A to Z, this is what we're charging him with?"
BERNSTEIN: They have do this exactly right. This has to be perfect. This document, this indictment, which will be presented to a grand jury, has to be perfect in a case like this. You don't want -- you know, it's -- you don't want to make any mistakes. And so they're going to go slow. They're going to do it carefully. And normally...
LIN: Where's the loophole when you have so many witnesses to a mass crime spree?
BERNSTEIN: Well, it's not so much a loophole there. But if you make legal errors, that's what can make reversible convictions later on.
And then, you know, you have the other issues that are coming on down the line, which is competency of this person to stand trial. There will be a mental evaluation. Is there some sort of insanity defense? And finally, the issue of mitigation. In the end, will the death penalty be given... LIN: Why is that a question? Because the prosecutor has not stated -- the D.A. has not stated that the county -- the state is going to seek the death penalty.
BERNSTEIN: He hasn't yet. He hasn't yet. It's early. It's early on.
LIN: Early in four killings? I mean in the state of Georgia, more than one is considered a mass killing.
BERNSTEIN: Remember, he's just been arrested right now. The formal charges that bring you into court is an indictment. That's members of the grand jury in Georgia, 26 members of the community who are paneled, who hear some of the facts and issue the official charging document. That's the time it's going to be appropriate to officially announce that.
LIN: So what do you expect this week, then, when he makes his first court appearance, which has not specifically been scheduled yet?
BERNSTEIN: He'll just have, just like every other person, a first appearance hearing, which is informing you of the basic charges against you, inquiring whether you have counsel, and if you don't have an attorney, making sure that an attorney is appointed for you. That's about it for this week for him.
LIN: Would you take this case?
BERNSTEIN: That's a difficult one. You know, I'm -- very much cared for Judge Barnes. There's a lot of personal involved here and worrying about it. At the same time, you know, I take an oath as a lawyer to be part of the judicial system and make things fair. So...
LIN: Is that grounds -- do you think that's going to be grounds for a change of venue, given not only do you have a population of Atlanta, the way the city is constructed, I mean it does feel like a small town. People were living in fear. So you got the potential jury pool issue.
But also, so many criminal defense attorneys personally knew the people who were killed in that courtroom.
BERNSTEIN: Exactly. Exactly. I mean first of all, you're probably going to see a judge brought in from outside the Fulton County judges. In the past when there have been issues close to home, they bring in senior judges or judges from the other parts of the state who don't have the same -- although they may care for a fellow judge being passed away, not the same on the line.
LIN: Right. There...
BERNSTEIN: You've got that. And then the other issue finally is then a change of venue. Can a jury be selected from Fulton County to try the case? That's going to be difficult.
LIN: Very quickly, the rape charges. Technically, resolve the rape case. That's what the D.A. said. Clearly, the jury tainted in this case. What's going to happen there?
BERNSTEIN: I would imagine that at this point they're just going to declare a mistrial. I mean, that's really the only reason...
LIN: A second mistrial. Does that jeopardize any chances of the -- of the alleged victim getting justice?
BERNSTEIN: Based on the reasons for the mistrial, it should be all right. And the case will be able to go forward again.
LIN: But not until perhaps after the current murder charges themselves?
BERNSTEIN: I would imagine that they're going to put all of their effort into the murder case. And then, you know, because will the victim have to testify a third time? I mean, you have to think about the trauma on her. How many times does she have to relive it? And if he's convicted on the other charges, maybe she won't have to go through it again.
LIN: All right. All right. B.J. Bernstein, thank you very much. I know it's been a tough day down at the Fulton County Courthouse and jail. Thank you.
More LIVE FROM right after a quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM...
SMITH: He put a gun to my side and he said, "Don't scream."
PHILLIPS: More of Ashley Smith's amazing story as she was held captive by the suspect in a courthouse shooting rampage. How she managed to survive.
Also, later on LIVE FROM, are you a night owl or an early bird? The answer to that question could have a huge impact on your health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 14, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, SURVIVED HOSTAGE ORDEAL: I didn't want to die. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: A brave woman survives after held captive by a man wanted in the Atlanta courthouse killings. This hour, how her situation was eerily similar to the alleged assault case Nicholas was originally on trial for.
CAROL LIN, CO-HOST: And what is next for Brian Nichols? He was already on trial for rape. And after Friday's shooting rampage, he'll likely face charges in four murders.
PHILLIPS: Also ahead this hour, grief at the courthouse. The people shot were co-worker and friends. This hour, we'll talk with the chaplain and counselor comforting the men and women who have to get back to work.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.
LIN: And I'm Carol Lin, in for Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL HOWARD, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We plan to charge him with the murders of the four Fulton County residents. We plan to charge him with a number of aggravated assaults, carjackings. It's going to be a very large indictment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Atlanta's district attorney contemplates Brian Nichols' future. And one key question in particular.
Meanwhile, Nichols' last alleged murder victim makes his final journey home to North Carolina. David Wilhelm to shot to death in the house he was building in Atlanta's Buckhead community Friday night.
But it's what happened inside an apartment some 20 miles away over the course of many hours that changed the course of a manhunt. A captive's courage, a fugitive's peaceful capture, captivating a nation. Now we'll explore many life or death issues in the hour ahead, beginning with the restoration of order at the Fulton County Courthouse.
CNN's Kimberly Osias is there -- Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, I'll tell you; it is back to work as normal, as can be expected. Obviously, that is a euphemism, given the grisly shooting that took place on Friday some 75 hours ago.
Just a little while ago I spoke to a couple of deputies. Obviously, for them, this is more than just an incredible news story. It is very, very personal and very poignant. They say they are here. They are working because they have a job to do and that is what they are going to do.
Some of them are availing themselves of a private memorial service that is going on with the chaplain, with the Fulton County chaplain today. Tomorrow there will be a public memorial service for individuals that feel called to be here, feel moved to grieve these victims.
Of course, we are speaking now of four victims, the first being superior court Judge Rowland Barnes, a relatively new superior court judge and one that was highly esteemed, certainly, in legal circles that I have heard of.
We are speaking about his court reporter, Julie Ann Brandau. The pair were known to be incredibly gracious, extending southern hospitality, baking baked goods for jurors, in fact.
Also, Sergeant Hoyt Teasley. One of the deputies that I just spoke with said he went to high school with this man. Stellar, stand- up guy, really dedicated to his job.
And also U.S. Immigrations Officer David Wilhelm, the last known victim.
Of course, they are reviewing security protocols and procedures, as they will be for the next several days. As far as the man believed to be behind all of this, the accused, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, he is in the federal penitentiary. He is not going to court today. The earliest he could be in court is tomorrow.
But, Kyra, the story of the day truly is this young woman, this young widow, a single mother of a 5-year-old who is being touted as an incredible hero. She was a hostage of Mr. Nichols. And for some eight hours, she did an amazing job really establishing rapport with him, humanizing herself to him, testifying to him, reading from a very popular book in spiritual circles, as well as secular circles, as well, called "A Purpose-Driven Life" -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And we're going to talk more about her and that book later in the hour. Kimberly Osias outside the courthouse, thank you.
LIN: Well, the head of the county SWAT team that finally took Nichols into custody calls the woman who turned him in a remarkable lady. Her name is Ashley Smith. She's 26 years old and a widow and a mother of one who says Nichols himself called her an angel sent from God.
Now she talked with reporters last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: I started walking to my door, and I felt really, really scared. I -- so I put my key in the door and I unlocked it, and I turned around and he was right there. And I started to scream, and he put a gun to my side and he said, "Don't scream. If you don't scream, I won't hurt you."
So I said, "All right. OK. I won't scream."
We went in the house. And he shut and locked the door behind us. He told me to go into the bathroom. So I went in the bathroom. He followed me to the bathroom. And he said, "Do you know who I am?"
I said, "No." Because he had a hat on.
And then he took his hat off. And he said, "Now do you now who I am?"
And I said, "Yes, I know who you are. Please, don't hurt me. Just, please, don't hurt me. I have a 5-year-old little girl. Please don't hurt me."
He said, "I'm not going to hurt you if you just do what I say."
I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me, no.
My husband died four years ago, and I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. And if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset. He still told me no.
But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was, and he said, "Maybe, maybe I'll let you go. Just maybe. We'll see how things go."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Clearly, we're going to hear much more from Ashley Smith, including her lesson in faith, in this hour of LIVE FROM. In our next hour, actually, we are going to replay her news conference in its entirety, the raw tape, so you can hear her story, the entire story for yourself -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, at least two security cameras captured Brian Nichols in action many hours before police did.
Surveillance video from a parking garage shows Nichols after the courthouse rampage and at least two alleged carjackings and before he apparently slipped onto the subway and melted into the population. Law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks joins me now with more on the manhunt, the capture and the brutal crimes that Nichols was on trial for to begin with. We'll get to the surveillance cameras in a minute, but let's talk about the fact that he was on trial for rape.
MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.
PHILLIPS: Here's what's interesting. The detective faxed me, actually, over the police report. And the M.O.'s are exactly the same, if you look at what the police report said with his girlfriend, who was on trial for rape, and it says that she stated that Mr. Nichols duct taped her wrists, knees and feet together. And she stated that Mr. Nichols placed her into the bathtub and then left the condo. Well, that's exactly what happened to Ashley Smith.
BROOKS: Exactly. When you showed me that this morning, it was chilling to hear her account last night and then to read that report. And the similarities is unbelievable. And you go back and you say, "Well, what would make him do this?
You know, was it something that he was familiar with? Is there something" -- you were saying that your sources were telling you that he has a bipolar illness.
PHILLIPS: They were saying that before the alleged rape, that this couple never had any problems.
BROOKS: Eight years.
PHILLIPS: Yes. No physical abuse, no verbal abuse.
BROOKS: Right.
PHILLIPS: And that he snapped.
BROOKS: Exactly.
PHILLIPS: And that he was bipolar. Well, so, why wouldn't he kill these women? He had no problem allegedly killing these other people.
BROOKS: Right.
PHILLIPS: Why would he duct tape, throw them in the tub, each of the women and not kill either one of them?
BROOKS: It's a lot easier to kill a stranger than it is someone who is close to you, someone you've developed a bond -- developed a bond with.
You know, we talked -- we heard Ashley was talking about her experiences. We've heard that she's had a born-again Christian and she's -- she was reading to him about forgiveness, these kind of things.
And then with -- for an eight-year relationship, and tying this person up and putting them in the bathtub. I mean, Ashley Smith is extremely, extremely heroic but also extremely lucky woman. Apparently her personal skills -- I was hearing from a source close to her family. He says that she's known to have just unbelievable personal skills, to be able to talk to anyone. And it definitely worked here. I mean she was scared to death.
PHILLIPS: A lesson to learn?
BROOKS: A lesson to learn.
PHILLIPS: Say this happens to you. Humanize yourself. Connect somehow with the person that's holding you hostage.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: And you have a better chance of surviving.
BROOKS: I was a hostage negotiator for almost 22 years. And I can tell you, people who have survived hostage situations -- he was with her for eight hours. They do. They try to humanize themselves. And talk to them.
As a negotiator, you try to humanize it with the person you're dealing with inside who's holding the hostages. You try to talk about your family, his family. You're not going to see them ever again, these kind of things. It's all this in crisis intervention is what you try to do, humanize yourself.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's go back to the courthouse now.
BROOKS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: And, you know, if you were to sit here and look at everything that went down from a law enforcement perspective, there were a lot of mistakes made. And you were talking about specifically what happened inside the courthouse when Nichols and this deputy had contact and the gun was taken.
What are you -- what are you understanding now about what was caught on tape, what wasn't done properly, what happened inside that courthouse?
BROOKS: What we're hearing now, Kyra, is the room, the holding room where the gun was taken from the female deputy, and she was hit by Nichols.
Apparently, there were two cameras in that room that were supposed to be being monitored by other deputies. They were not on their post. The cameras were not being monitored.
Would this have made a difference? Some people say, "Well, maybe, maybe not." I think it would have. No. 1, it would have gotten a quicker response. They would have seen the deputy, known what was going on, get a quicker response so this -- so Nichols grabbed her run and then went running through the courthouse. PHILLIPS: So every time a deputy is with someone who's on trial, they're -- they're supposed to be in a holding room with cameras going. They're supposed to be monitored by other deputies.
BROOKS: Well, you've got -- you've got the elevator. You've got the holding room. You've got cells, holding cells...
PHILLIPS: All supposed to be monitored.
BROOKS: ... all being monitored, supposed to be monitored. You know, Fulton County Sheriff's Office, they do a great job. But there have been problems in the sheriff's office going back over the last two years.
PHILLIPS: There's a talk about a cut in budget, resources.
BROOKS: Right. And they had problems with the sheriff. She was out. And then there was an interim person in who used to be the special agent in charge of the FBI field office here, who in placed in there to kind of run things, try to get things back in order. Then the new sheriff was elected, and he's only been in office for two months. There's a lot of things they have to do to go back and take a look at what they're doing now.
But, you know, there was all their other mistakes. I talked to a high-ranking Atlanta Police Department official today. And he says, yes, we did a good job, but there were mistakes. They did catch the person. That's the bottom line.
Now they have to take a look at their court security. Was there complacency? Were people supposed to be -- not where they're supposed to be?
And I can tell you one thing, Kyra, I was out of town this weekend. But I've been hearing all news -- different news...
PHILLIPS: Accounts.
BROOKS: ... shows about they're asking what can we do in our community to make sure this doesn't happen?
PHILLIPS: Yes.
BROOKS: Every place department, every sheriff's office, every law enforcement community, they're going to be taking a look to make sure this doesn't happen within their system.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's going to be interesting to hear from the sheriff, too.
BROOKS: Yes, it will be.
PHILLIPS: Mike Brooks, thank you so much.
BROOKS: Thank you. PHILLIPS: Well, tonight at 10 Eastern, from the courthouse chaos to silent surrender, "26 HOURS: INSIDE THE ATLANTA MANHUNT." Tonight, 10 Eastern, only on CNN.
LIN: Well, Brian Nichols faces, potentially, dozens of charges, including multiple counts of murder. So straight ahead on LIVE FROM, I'm going to talk with an Atlanta attorney about the complex legal situation. Why haven't prosecutors decided to charge him with death? And what happens to the original rape trial?
Also, later on LIVE FROM, an Atlanta area woman, Ashley Smith, uses her faith and a best-selling book to defuse a potentially deadly situation. So we are going to go in-depth on that book, "The Purpose- Driven Life," straight ahead on LIVE FROM.
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LIN: He is the prime suspect in the killings of four people, plus assorted assaults and carjackings. And in a model of understatement, you might say, an Atlanta prosecutor says Brian Nichols faces a rather large indictment.
But where to begin and what happens to the rape case that brought Brian Nicholas into that Atlanta courtroom in the first place? Atlanta attorney B.J. Bernstein joins me to sort all of this out.
So thank you time -- for spending your time here, because I know you were down at a courthouse inside the jail, a different facility.
B.J. BERNSTEIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At the Fulton County. I was at the Fulton County today.
LIN: Fulton County. What was it like to be down there? Did you see any changes?
BERNSTEIN: A little bit. First of all, all the deputies are very somber. They all have the black mat, you know, across their badge. And the security is definitely heightened. You know, I was back in the courtroom in the back with the inmates where the public can't get in but lawyers can. There were six deputies there. None of them had guns.
LIN: Six as opposed to how many how many would be on a normal day?
BERNSTEIN: Maybe, like, three or four. So it looked like...
LIN: Virtually double the number.
BERNSTEIN: Absolutely. And they were there. They were paying very close attention to every one. Every one came in shackled, all together. They were never unshackled. They all sat there. So definitely, you know, people are concerned. And then in talking to the deputies, you know, I've gotten to know them. Even though I'm a criminal defense lawyer, they get to be friends. You see them in court. And they wanted, you know, folks to know that it's not every one who's not doing their job, you know, that there are a lot of people who are.
LIN: Did they give you any theories about...
BERNSTEIN: That there are good things happening.
LIN: Did they give you any feedback behind the scenes about how they felt what went wrong? Why were those security lapses?
BERNSTEIN: No, they weren't talking about that right now. I mean, I think that their bosses have them, you know, doing what they're suppose to do and not really talking with members of the public or the bar about that right now.
LIN: Right. Were you scared going into the court? You say you were standing with the inmates.
BERNSTEIN: You know, I'm used to that. I mean that's part of what I do day in and day out. And you can't change just because of this happening.
LIN: Right.
BERNSTEIN: I thing the concern now is that we overreact. You know, nothing -- as the story has been revealing, CNN's been working on it this weekend. It changes, what we're finding out as to the facts and where the problems are.
LIN: Right. All right. Fair enough. Let's talk about what the charges may be. He's being held on a firearms charge. He's going to be charged with four murders, a variety of carjackings. Why the lack of specificity? Why can't prosecutors come forward and say, "A to Z, this is what we're charging him with?"
BERNSTEIN: They have do this exactly right. This has to be perfect. This document, this indictment, which will be presented to a grand jury, has to be perfect in a case like this. You don't want -- you know, it's -- you don't want to make any mistakes. And so they're going to go slow. They're going to do it carefully. And normally...
LIN: Where's the loophole when you have so many witnesses to a mass crime spree?
BERNSTEIN: Well, it's not so much a loophole there. But if you make legal errors, that's what can make reversible convictions later on.
And then, you know, you have the other issues that are coming on down the line, which is competency of this person to stand trial. There will be a mental evaluation. Is there some sort of insanity defense? And finally, the issue of mitigation. In the end, will the death penalty be given... LIN: Why is that a question? Because the prosecutor has not stated -- the D.A. has not stated that the county -- the state is going to seek the death penalty.
BERNSTEIN: He hasn't yet. He hasn't yet. It's early. It's early on.
LIN: Early in four killings? I mean in the state of Georgia, more than one is considered a mass killing.
BERNSTEIN: Remember, he's just been arrested right now. The formal charges that bring you into court is an indictment. That's members of the grand jury in Georgia, 26 members of the community who are paneled, who hear some of the facts and issue the official charging document. That's the time it's going to be appropriate to officially announce that.
LIN: So what do you expect this week, then, when he makes his first court appearance, which has not specifically been scheduled yet?
BERNSTEIN: He'll just have, just like every other person, a first appearance hearing, which is informing you of the basic charges against you, inquiring whether you have counsel, and if you don't have an attorney, making sure that an attorney is appointed for you. That's about it for this week for him.
LIN: Would you take this case?
BERNSTEIN: That's a difficult one. You know, I'm -- very much cared for Judge Barnes. There's a lot of personal involved here and worrying about it. At the same time, you know, I take an oath as a lawyer to be part of the judicial system and make things fair. So...
LIN: Is that grounds -- do you think that's going to be grounds for a change of venue, given not only do you have a population of Atlanta, the way the city is constructed, I mean it does feel like a small town. People were living in fear. So you got the potential jury pool issue.
But also, so many criminal defense attorneys personally knew the people who were killed in that courtroom.
BERNSTEIN: Exactly. Exactly. I mean first of all, you're probably going to see a judge brought in from outside the Fulton County judges. In the past when there have been issues close to home, they bring in senior judges or judges from the other parts of the state who don't have the same -- although they may care for a fellow judge being passed away, not the same on the line.
LIN: Right. There...
BERNSTEIN: You've got that. And then the other issue finally is then a change of venue. Can a jury be selected from Fulton County to try the case? That's going to be difficult.
LIN: Very quickly, the rape charges. Technically, resolve the rape case. That's what the D.A. said. Clearly, the jury tainted in this case. What's going to happen there?
BERNSTEIN: I would imagine that at this point they're just going to declare a mistrial. I mean, that's really the only reason...
LIN: A second mistrial. Does that jeopardize any chances of the -- of the alleged victim getting justice?
BERNSTEIN: Based on the reasons for the mistrial, it should be all right. And the case will be able to go forward again.
LIN: But not until perhaps after the current murder charges themselves?
BERNSTEIN: I would imagine that they're going to put all of their effort into the murder case. And then, you know, because will the victim have to testify a third time? I mean, you have to think about the trauma on her. How many times does she have to relive it? And if he's convicted on the other charges, maybe she won't have to go through it again.
LIN: All right. All right. B.J. Bernstein, thank you very much. I know it's been a tough day down at the Fulton County Courthouse and jail. Thank you.
More LIVE FROM right after a quick break.
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PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM...
SMITH: He put a gun to my side and he said, "Don't scream."
PHILLIPS: More of Ashley Smith's amazing story as she was held captive by the suspect in a courthouse shooting rampage. How she managed to survive.
Also, later on LIVE FROM, are you a night owl or an early bird? The answer to that question could have a huge impact on your health.
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