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Defining Iraqi Feminism; Lipstick Jihad

Aired March 15, 2005 - 13:32   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Stories in the news right now. The federal government is charging 18 people in alleged weapons smuggling plot. They're accused of trying to bring Russian grenade launchers and shoulder-fired muscles into the United States. The suspects have been rounded up in New York, California and Florida.
Just an hour ago, the verdict in America's biggest corporate accounting scandal, former WorldCom boss Bernard Ebbers has been convicted of all nine counts against him, including fraud and conspiracy. The case involved $11 billion in cooked books.

As the hours tick down to Thursday's congressional hearing on steroids in baseball, MLB commissioner Bud Selig is preparing to testify voluntarily. It is not yet known how many subpoenaed players might also testify. The lawyers for three players, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro and Frank Thomas have asked the committee to withdraw their subpoenas. The U.S. embassy in Baghdad warns Americans to be on extra alert about security. One day before Iraq's first national assembly meeting, Kurd and Shiite leaders have reached an agreement in principle on a coalition government but are still discussing final details.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As Iraq makes its first tentative steps from dictatorship toward democracy, the right of all citizens are up for discussion, but that's especially true for women in Iraq, where both politics and religion play strong roles in the new government.

CNN's Aneesh Raman within two very different women and how they're defining Iraqi feminism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arriving at work, Dr. Amal Mousa's appearance person suggest the first of numerous contradictions. Wearing the full abbyah (ph), she is a member of Iraq's newly elected national assembly, soon to take part in drafting the country's constitution, in itself, a major step for women's right in the Middle East. But she is also a member of the dominant Shia religious Dawa Party, and believes Islamic sharia law should shape family life in Iraq, even while some say it constrains her gender.

DR. AMAL MOUSA, IRAQI NATL. ASSEMBLY: The red lines, which are fixed in Islam and written (INAUDIBLE) in Koran, and there is a statements from our prophets about it, these, I think, (INAUDIBLE) are not able to be changed. RAMAN: Her audience in this political strategy session, all men. But Mousa believes, among other things, in unequal inheritance for women and stringent constraints on their ability to divorce. For her, the century's old religious laws are far from outdated.

MOUSA: We have a rule that has divided the duties and responsibilities between the woman and the man according to their bolt (ph), according to their bolt. I think this will be better than changing to a new one.

RAMAN: But that was the not the rule, even under Saddam Hussein, where the state, an least officially, treated men and women as equals.

And now women, like Owatif Naim, are demanding that ideal be made law in the new Iraq. Touring her studio in Baghdad, it becomes quickly apparent that the art professor's dominant passion now is politics.

OWATIF NAIM, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE (through translator): It's time for a woman to enjoy her rights, express herself, her right to choose who will represent her and talk on her behalf. The national assembly should be aware of this fact.

RAMAN: Leading a group of secular artists, she plans to relentlessly lobby the female members who make up one-third of the assembly.

NAIM (through translator): Maybe it's Iraq's destiny to struggle for its freedom, and Iraqi women as well. If it's not for this generation, it's for coming generations, to give them rights and a chance for life with dignity, with freedom and complete right.

RAMAN (on camera): Feminism in Iraq is highly nuanced, which is why women are lobbying other women to get their point across. And the stakes here are high. This is an unprecedented opportunity for historic change.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: So when it comes to women's rights, our next guest says she's too sexy for her veil. Author Azadeh Moaveni tells her story in a new book "Lipstick Jihad: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America, and American in Iran." Azadeh joins us live from San Francisco.

Too sexy for your veil, huh?

AZADEH MOAVENI, "LIPSTICK JIHAD": That was a chapter title. And a lot of women in Tehran seem to think that.

PHILLIPS: Interesting, well, and that sort of plays into the title behind your book "Lipstick Jihad." Tell us about that story that -- when you were in Iran, about having to wear makeup, hide the makeup, take the makeup off, put it back on, the whole lipstick drama. MOAVENI: The first month that I went back, I had gone to see an play with my aunts and my cousins. And as we got to the door of the theater a policewoman told my aunts and all of us to take off our lipstick. So I watched all my relatives reach into their purse and pull out their Kleenex and their makeup remover and take it off, and they glided through the doors and put it back on two minutes later as if nothing had happened. That's when I just realized that wearing makeup and how you comport yourself has just become a background way of dealing with and trying to change the regime in casual life.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about changing the regime, and if that's possible, and where things are going in Iran, as President Bush continue to call Iran the axis of evil. Most recently, this happened over the weekend. We came across these pictures. And I know you don't talk about it in your book, but I wanted to get your reaction, as a journalist -- you've written for "The L.A. Times," "Time" magazine, of course -- the police academy graduation over the weekend, and these women officers. Why is this being made such a big deal, and is this proof that things are moving in a different direction?

MOAVENI: Well, I think we have to look at it from two directions. On the one hand, these are not images you would see from Afghanistan, from other parts of the Middle East. So you see women in jobs that are usually reserved for men in a very public way able to participate at all levels in society, and in careers. On the other hand, if they're just a prosecuting arm of a legal system and the judiciary that abrogates women's rights regularly and doesn't give women proper legal status under the law, then is that real emancipation? I'm not sure.

PHILLIPS: Well, you've developed quite a relationship with Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Peace Prize winner from Iran. This was a pretty amazing thing, when she got this award. Talk to us about your relationship with her, what you're doing with her now, and also how she sort of made such an incredible inroad for women's rights and, you know, humanitarian efforts in Iran.

MOAVENI: I first met her Mrs. Ebadi in 2000, when she was defending the students who had been arrested in the demonstrations and protests in 1999, and I watched her career, as I was a reporter in Iran, defending the families of murdered intellectuals, runaway girls, everyone who either because of politics or because of the way the legal system operated, was vulnerable before the law. And I thought that she was an inspiring example of how an Iranian woman could work within the confine of that legal system and the constraints imposed by the low threshold of the regime for opposition to try and defend people and to try and advocate for women's rights within those kinds of constraints.

And I'm quite privileged because I'm actually going to be co- writing her memoir, which will be coming out next year, and telling her story as a woman, and a mother and an Iranian woman who went through the revolution and was not able to be a judge afterwards and the transition from being someone sidelined to a leading advocate of human rights. PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about that for a minute. From the revolution to being sidelined to now leading these efforts for human rights. You mentioned the student protest, the pro-democracy movement. What do you think? With all this talk of Iran possibly being another target, another war, taking place with this country, do you think -- are you taking the lines of Ebadi in that no, there is progress, there a new revolution coming, don't go to war with Iran, change is going to happen?

MOAVENI: Well, I look at that question from the vantage point of how Iranian young people and Iranians of all walks of life see it, which is that they think the regime is there to stay and their lives are intertwined with its institutions and they want to see evolution, not revolution. They want to see the way things have been going just continue. And they would of course hope for more accelerated progress, but they've resigned themselves to the fact they can slowly transform from within without the immense and high and unpredictable cost of a major shakeup and possibly foreign intervention.

KAGAN: The nuclear threat. I saw the pictures of you covering -- actually, at one of the nuclear facilities. Tell me about covering this story. What did you write about and what's your feeling about the threat of nukes?

MOAVENI: I covered the nuclear issue because for the first time, the Iranian government took us on a press tour of the Bushara (ph), the big nuclear power plant in the south. But I went on to cover it in terms of what do Iranians actually think about the bomb? Do they want their government to have it? Do they have nationalist attitudes? And I find that people are split straight down the middle.

A lot of people think that for Iran to be a serious player in the region, to have any kind of strategic influence, it needs to get a nuclear weapon. On the other hand, you have a lot of Iranians who are ambivalent about their government's ability to manage nuclear power efficiently, they're worried about another Chernobyl and they're not sure whether they want to see this system be entrenched to such a degree with nuclear weapons.

PHILLIPS: Well, from politics to women's rights, the book is "Lipstick Jihad: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America and American in Iran." Azadeh, thank you so much for your time. It's an interesting read.

MOAVENI: Thank you.

HARRIS: Will the words of the woman he reportedly called an angel keep Brian Nichols from getting a death sentence? We'll take a look at case against him next.

And later, Martha Stewart tells fans it's great to be out, but some of the footwear is a little uncomfortable. LIVE FROM feels her pain after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS: And here's your LIVE FROM bonus story. No TV cameras will be allowed -- really? -- at the upcoming wedding of Britain's Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles?

PHILLIPS: I'll take digital pictures for you.

HARRIS: OK. Oh, man, you're going to do that? You probably recall the blinding media spectacle of Charles' first marriage to Diana back in 1981. But this time, nothing doing. The keywords, private, low key. I know you're upset by all this. It's going to be tough to go on with the rest of your day, but please stay with us. There's more LIVE FROM after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Well, prosecutors are busy preparing their case against Brian Nichols, the suspect in the courthouse killing spree that left four people dead and the fifth person in critical condition. Nichols is accused horrendous crimes, but the woman who says she was held captive by Nichols paints a very different picture of him. She says Nichols was remorseful and spoke of God. So could her statements hurt prosecutors' chances of getting the death penalty if they decide to go that route.

Joining me to talk about that is CNN contributor and former U.S. attorney Bob Barr. Bob, always good to see you.

BOB BARR, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Thank you.

HARRIS: Any doubt in your mind that this a death penalty case?

BARR: No, no doubt at all. I mean, it has all the indexes, all the characteristics of a death penalty case.

HARRIS: A federal death penalty case or state death penalty case?

BARR: Well, it could qualify for either. It clearly qualifies for the state. And I think the prosecution team, which will certainly consult with the U.S. attorney's office, probably will go first at the state level. The problem with the federal is you have to prove by circumstantial evidence that the defendant knew he was killing a federal agent. He may very well have, but you have to prove that. And the federal death penalty laws are basically untested. They have been used very, very rarely, so there's going to be all sorts of probably novel appeal issues. So I think they're smarter going the state route first.

HARRIS: As a former federal prosecutor, put us in the room with prosecutors here in Fulton County. Fulton County, Georgia. And give us a sense of how they might look at this case.

BARR: The first problem that they're going to have and perhaps the major problem they're going to have, if any, is the massive pre- trial publicity. Now certainly, pre-trial publicity, however much there is, doesn't mean a defendant walks. It simply means that they have to be careful that they don't leave themselves open for a good appeals issue that the jury that was, in fact, selected and will be selected, was prejudiced because of the publicity.

HARRIS: Yes. Does the defense -- do you expect the defense to automatically ask for a change of venue in this?

BARR: It -- pretty much automatically. They would be leaving and the state almost needs them to do that because if they don't, it's going to be an appellate issue. And the state wants to present a very clean, straightforward case that will stand up on appeal.

HARRIS: As you look at the evidence so far, a lot of it, of course, comes from news accounts. As you look at it, is one of the hurdles for the prosecution not to become complacent, not to assume that this is a slam dunk case?

BARR: That's always the problem with the prosecution in prosecuting a very high-profile, apparently obviously guilty defendant. They have to be careful not to get overly confident. Death penalty cases are scrutinized like no other case, and they have to cross ever T and dot every I.

HARRIS: What do you think about the comments from Ashley Smith? She said when he entered house, he was one man, but during the course of their time together, seven hours together, he changed. How do you think these statements from Ashley Smith play for either side?

BARR: Well, of course, they're not going to be at all relevant for purposes of the prosecution itself. Whether he's guilty of the crimes charged...

HARRIS: ... side of the case.

BARR: Right, they happened long after the fact of the crimes with which he will be charged, the murders that is. Now, they may have some weight possibly with regard to the penalty phase, whether or not the jury decides that because he says he has found God...

HARRIS: Yes.

BARR: Of course, a lot of defendants say that. Does that mean they will go with life, as opposed to death sentence? I doubt it.

HARRIS: Yes. Let's assume for a moment the prosecution is successful in winning a conviction in this case. We're in Fulton County, a majority black population in Fulton County. Do we have any evidence to suggest whether or not black juries are more or less likely to sanction for death penalty?

BARR: There really is not a lot of evidence that indicates that race play a role in whether or not juries find for a defendant. There is some tangential evidence that some black juries in large metropolitan areas may be -- if it's a close case -- less likely to apply the death penalty. But this case -- I think the evidence is going to be so overwhelming, and of course you have at least one of the murders that's a black-on-black murder. I don't think that's going to play a role.

HARRIS: OK, Bob Barr, it's always good to see you.

BARR: Thanks you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: News around world now. Check out this dustup in Greece. It's actually a flour war. Part of an be annual tradition that coincides with carnival (ph) people from all across the country gathered to hurl flour of all colors at their compatriots. It's just -- paintballs. It's different.

PHILLIPS: It's just not right.

HARRIS: You can imagine the cleanup after this.

PHILLIPS: You think Memphis is the king of all things Elvis? Wait until you see what's happening in India -- yes, India. A sudden Elvis craze is taking over in Resdoak (ph). Well, Elvis impersonators are flooding restaurants, nightclubs. No word on exactly how many Elvises started there.

HARRIS: And poor Martha Stewart. The homemaking maven turned convict says her electronic bracelet, the ankle bracelet that she has to wear...

PHILLIPS: A little uncomfortable?

HARRIS: Yes, somewhat uncomfortable. Stewart says it's difficult to exercise with it on the treadmill, Stairmaster, those kinds of things, walking. Stewart quipped about her discomfort to fans during an online chat.

PHILLIPS: Poor thing.

HARRIS: Yes, you know.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

PHILLIPS: All right, come up in the second hour of LIVE FROM, we're going to be talking about Russian military weapons.

But first, this just in to CNN, we're getting word that -- out of Italy, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi saying that Italy is going to start withdrawing its 3,000 troops in Iraq in September. This is according to Associated Press. We're working this story right now. We don't know if this has anything to do with the story that we have been reporting for a couple of weeks, about the journalist held hostage, and then U.S. forces opened fire on that car when she had been released and was heading back to Italy. You'll remember that story. That's still under investigation. We don't know if that's the reason why Berlusconi has decided to pull troops out of Iraq or not. We're working it right now. Bring you more information as we get it.

But at this point, Italy going to start reducing troop numbers in Iraq come September.

We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.

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Aired March 15, 2005 - 13:32   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Stories in the news right now. The federal government is charging 18 people in alleged weapons smuggling plot. They're accused of trying to bring Russian grenade launchers and shoulder-fired muscles into the United States. The suspects have been rounded up in New York, California and Florida.
Just an hour ago, the verdict in America's biggest corporate accounting scandal, former WorldCom boss Bernard Ebbers has been convicted of all nine counts against him, including fraud and conspiracy. The case involved $11 billion in cooked books.

As the hours tick down to Thursday's congressional hearing on steroids in baseball, MLB commissioner Bud Selig is preparing to testify voluntarily. It is not yet known how many subpoenaed players might also testify. The lawyers for three players, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro and Frank Thomas have asked the committee to withdraw their subpoenas. The U.S. embassy in Baghdad warns Americans to be on extra alert about security. One day before Iraq's first national assembly meeting, Kurd and Shiite leaders have reached an agreement in principle on a coalition government but are still discussing final details.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As Iraq makes its first tentative steps from dictatorship toward democracy, the right of all citizens are up for discussion, but that's especially true for women in Iraq, where both politics and religion play strong roles in the new government.

CNN's Aneesh Raman within two very different women and how they're defining Iraqi feminism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arriving at work, Dr. Amal Mousa's appearance person suggest the first of numerous contradictions. Wearing the full abbyah (ph), she is a member of Iraq's newly elected national assembly, soon to take part in drafting the country's constitution, in itself, a major step for women's right in the Middle East. But she is also a member of the dominant Shia religious Dawa Party, and believes Islamic sharia law should shape family life in Iraq, even while some say it constrains her gender.

DR. AMAL MOUSA, IRAQI NATL. ASSEMBLY: The red lines, which are fixed in Islam and written (INAUDIBLE) in Koran, and there is a statements from our prophets about it, these, I think, (INAUDIBLE) are not able to be changed. RAMAN: Her audience in this political strategy session, all men. But Mousa believes, among other things, in unequal inheritance for women and stringent constraints on their ability to divorce. For her, the century's old religious laws are far from outdated.

MOUSA: We have a rule that has divided the duties and responsibilities between the woman and the man according to their bolt (ph), according to their bolt. I think this will be better than changing to a new one.

RAMAN: But that was the not the rule, even under Saddam Hussein, where the state, an least officially, treated men and women as equals.

And now women, like Owatif Naim, are demanding that ideal be made law in the new Iraq. Touring her studio in Baghdad, it becomes quickly apparent that the art professor's dominant passion now is politics.

OWATIF NAIM, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE (through translator): It's time for a woman to enjoy her rights, express herself, her right to choose who will represent her and talk on her behalf. The national assembly should be aware of this fact.

RAMAN: Leading a group of secular artists, she plans to relentlessly lobby the female members who make up one-third of the assembly.

NAIM (through translator): Maybe it's Iraq's destiny to struggle for its freedom, and Iraqi women as well. If it's not for this generation, it's for coming generations, to give them rights and a chance for life with dignity, with freedom and complete right.

RAMAN (on camera): Feminism in Iraq is highly nuanced, which is why women are lobbying other women to get their point across. And the stakes here are high. This is an unprecedented opportunity for historic change.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: So when it comes to women's rights, our next guest says she's too sexy for her veil. Author Azadeh Moaveni tells her story in a new book "Lipstick Jihad: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America, and American in Iran." Azadeh joins us live from San Francisco.

Too sexy for your veil, huh?

AZADEH MOAVENI, "LIPSTICK JIHAD": That was a chapter title. And a lot of women in Tehran seem to think that.

PHILLIPS: Interesting, well, and that sort of plays into the title behind your book "Lipstick Jihad." Tell us about that story that -- when you were in Iran, about having to wear makeup, hide the makeup, take the makeup off, put it back on, the whole lipstick drama. MOAVENI: The first month that I went back, I had gone to see an play with my aunts and my cousins. And as we got to the door of the theater a policewoman told my aunts and all of us to take off our lipstick. So I watched all my relatives reach into their purse and pull out their Kleenex and their makeup remover and take it off, and they glided through the doors and put it back on two minutes later as if nothing had happened. That's when I just realized that wearing makeup and how you comport yourself has just become a background way of dealing with and trying to change the regime in casual life.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about changing the regime, and if that's possible, and where things are going in Iran, as President Bush continue to call Iran the axis of evil. Most recently, this happened over the weekend. We came across these pictures. And I know you don't talk about it in your book, but I wanted to get your reaction, as a journalist -- you've written for "The L.A. Times," "Time" magazine, of course -- the police academy graduation over the weekend, and these women officers. Why is this being made such a big deal, and is this proof that things are moving in a different direction?

MOAVENI: Well, I think we have to look at it from two directions. On the one hand, these are not images you would see from Afghanistan, from other parts of the Middle East. So you see women in jobs that are usually reserved for men in a very public way able to participate at all levels in society, and in careers. On the other hand, if they're just a prosecuting arm of a legal system and the judiciary that abrogates women's rights regularly and doesn't give women proper legal status under the law, then is that real emancipation? I'm not sure.

PHILLIPS: Well, you've developed quite a relationship with Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Peace Prize winner from Iran. This was a pretty amazing thing, when she got this award. Talk to us about your relationship with her, what you're doing with her now, and also how she sort of made such an incredible inroad for women's rights and, you know, humanitarian efforts in Iran.

MOAVENI: I first met her Mrs. Ebadi in 2000, when she was defending the students who had been arrested in the demonstrations and protests in 1999, and I watched her career, as I was a reporter in Iran, defending the families of murdered intellectuals, runaway girls, everyone who either because of politics or because of the way the legal system operated, was vulnerable before the law. And I thought that she was an inspiring example of how an Iranian woman could work within the confine of that legal system and the constraints imposed by the low threshold of the regime for opposition to try and defend people and to try and advocate for women's rights within those kinds of constraints.

And I'm quite privileged because I'm actually going to be co- writing her memoir, which will be coming out next year, and telling her story as a woman, and a mother and an Iranian woman who went through the revolution and was not able to be a judge afterwards and the transition from being someone sidelined to a leading advocate of human rights. PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about that for a minute. From the revolution to being sidelined to now leading these efforts for human rights. You mentioned the student protest, the pro-democracy movement. What do you think? With all this talk of Iran possibly being another target, another war, taking place with this country, do you think -- are you taking the lines of Ebadi in that no, there is progress, there a new revolution coming, don't go to war with Iran, change is going to happen?

MOAVENI: Well, I look at that question from the vantage point of how Iranian young people and Iranians of all walks of life see it, which is that they think the regime is there to stay and their lives are intertwined with its institutions and they want to see evolution, not revolution. They want to see the way things have been going just continue. And they would of course hope for more accelerated progress, but they've resigned themselves to the fact they can slowly transform from within without the immense and high and unpredictable cost of a major shakeup and possibly foreign intervention.

KAGAN: The nuclear threat. I saw the pictures of you covering -- actually, at one of the nuclear facilities. Tell me about covering this story. What did you write about and what's your feeling about the threat of nukes?

MOAVENI: I covered the nuclear issue because for the first time, the Iranian government took us on a press tour of the Bushara (ph), the big nuclear power plant in the south. But I went on to cover it in terms of what do Iranians actually think about the bomb? Do they want their government to have it? Do they have nationalist attitudes? And I find that people are split straight down the middle.

A lot of people think that for Iran to be a serious player in the region, to have any kind of strategic influence, it needs to get a nuclear weapon. On the other hand, you have a lot of Iranians who are ambivalent about their government's ability to manage nuclear power efficiently, they're worried about another Chernobyl and they're not sure whether they want to see this system be entrenched to such a degree with nuclear weapons.

PHILLIPS: Well, from politics to women's rights, the book is "Lipstick Jihad: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America and American in Iran." Azadeh, thank you so much for your time. It's an interesting read.

MOAVENI: Thank you.

HARRIS: Will the words of the woman he reportedly called an angel keep Brian Nichols from getting a death sentence? We'll take a look at case against him next.

And later, Martha Stewart tells fans it's great to be out, but some of the footwear is a little uncomfortable. LIVE FROM feels her pain after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS: And here's your LIVE FROM bonus story. No TV cameras will be allowed -- really? -- at the upcoming wedding of Britain's Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles?

PHILLIPS: I'll take digital pictures for you.

HARRIS: OK. Oh, man, you're going to do that? You probably recall the blinding media spectacle of Charles' first marriage to Diana back in 1981. But this time, nothing doing. The keywords, private, low key. I know you're upset by all this. It's going to be tough to go on with the rest of your day, but please stay with us. There's more LIVE FROM after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Well, prosecutors are busy preparing their case against Brian Nichols, the suspect in the courthouse killing spree that left four people dead and the fifth person in critical condition. Nichols is accused horrendous crimes, but the woman who says she was held captive by Nichols paints a very different picture of him. She says Nichols was remorseful and spoke of God. So could her statements hurt prosecutors' chances of getting the death penalty if they decide to go that route.

Joining me to talk about that is CNN contributor and former U.S. attorney Bob Barr. Bob, always good to see you.

BOB BARR, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Thank you.

HARRIS: Any doubt in your mind that this a death penalty case?

BARR: No, no doubt at all. I mean, it has all the indexes, all the characteristics of a death penalty case.

HARRIS: A federal death penalty case or state death penalty case?

BARR: Well, it could qualify for either. It clearly qualifies for the state. And I think the prosecution team, which will certainly consult with the U.S. attorney's office, probably will go first at the state level. The problem with the federal is you have to prove by circumstantial evidence that the defendant knew he was killing a federal agent. He may very well have, but you have to prove that. And the federal death penalty laws are basically untested. They have been used very, very rarely, so there's going to be all sorts of probably novel appeal issues. So I think they're smarter going the state route first.

HARRIS: As a former federal prosecutor, put us in the room with prosecutors here in Fulton County. Fulton County, Georgia. And give us a sense of how they might look at this case.

BARR: The first problem that they're going to have and perhaps the major problem they're going to have, if any, is the massive pre- trial publicity. Now certainly, pre-trial publicity, however much there is, doesn't mean a defendant walks. It simply means that they have to be careful that they don't leave themselves open for a good appeals issue that the jury that was, in fact, selected and will be selected, was prejudiced because of the publicity.

HARRIS: Yes. Does the defense -- do you expect the defense to automatically ask for a change of venue in this?

BARR: It -- pretty much automatically. They would be leaving and the state almost needs them to do that because if they don't, it's going to be an appellate issue. And the state wants to present a very clean, straightforward case that will stand up on appeal.

HARRIS: As you look at the evidence so far, a lot of it, of course, comes from news accounts. As you look at it, is one of the hurdles for the prosecution not to become complacent, not to assume that this is a slam dunk case?

BARR: That's always the problem with the prosecution in prosecuting a very high-profile, apparently obviously guilty defendant. They have to be careful not to get overly confident. Death penalty cases are scrutinized like no other case, and they have to cross ever T and dot every I.

HARRIS: What do you think about the comments from Ashley Smith? She said when he entered house, he was one man, but during the course of their time together, seven hours together, he changed. How do you think these statements from Ashley Smith play for either side?

BARR: Well, of course, they're not going to be at all relevant for purposes of the prosecution itself. Whether he's guilty of the crimes charged...

HARRIS: ... side of the case.

BARR: Right, they happened long after the fact of the crimes with which he will be charged, the murders that is. Now, they may have some weight possibly with regard to the penalty phase, whether or not the jury decides that because he says he has found God...

HARRIS: Yes.

BARR: Of course, a lot of defendants say that. Does that mean they will go with life, as opposed to death sentence? I doubt it.

HARRIS: Yes. Let's assume for a moment the prosecution is successful in winning a conviction in this case. We're in Fulton County, a majority black population in Fulton County. Do we have any evidence to suggest whether or not black juries are more or less likely to sanction for death penalty?

BARR: There really is not a lot of evidence that indicates that race play a role in whether or not juries find for a defendant. There is some tangential evidence that some black juries in large metropolitan areas may be -- if it's a close case -- less likely to apply the death penalty. But this case -- I think the evidence is going to be so overwhelming, and of course you have at least one of the murders that's a black-on-black murder. I don't think that's going to play a role.

HARRIS: OK, Bob Barr, it's always good to see you.

BARR: Thanks you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: News around world now. Check out this dustup in Greece. It's actually a flour war. Part of an be annual tradition that coincides with carnival (ph) people from all across the country gathered to hurl flour of all colors at their compatriots. It's just -- paintballs. It's different.

PHILLIPS: It's just not right.

HARRIS: You can imagine the cleanup after this.

PHILLIPS: You think Memphis is the king of all things Elvis? Wait until you see what's happening in India -- yes, India. A sudden Elvis craze is taking over in Resdoak (ph). Well, Elvis impersonators are flooding restaurants, nightclubs. No word on exactly how many Elvises started there.

HARRIS: And poor Martha Stewart. The homemaking maven turned convict says her electronic bracelet, the ankle bracelet that she has to wear...

PHILLIPS: A little uncomfortable?

HARRIS: Yes, somewhat uncomfortable. Stewart says it's difficult to exercise with it on the treadmill, Stairmaster, those kinds of things, walking. Stewart quipped about her discomfort to fans during an online chat.

PHILLIPS: Poor thing.

HARRIS: Yes, you know.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

PHILLIPS: All right, come up in the second hour of LIVE FROM, we're going to be talking about Russian military weapons.

But first, this just in to CNN, we're getting word that -- out of Italy, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi saying that Italy is going to start withdrawing its 3,000 troops in Iraq in September. This is according to Associated Press. We're working this story right now. We don't know if this has anything to do with the story that we have been reporting for a couple of weeks, about the journalist held hostage, and then U.S. forces opened fire on that car when she had been released and was heading back to Italy. You'll remember that story. That's still under investigation. We don't know if that's the reason why Berlusconi has decided to pull troops out of Iraq or not. We're working it right now. Bring you more information as we get it.

But at this point, Italy going to start reducing troop numbers in Iraq come September.

We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.

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