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Terri Schiavo at Center of Legal Battles

Aired March 18, 2005 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The Terri Schiavo case is now at the center of a very complex legal web, with Congress trying circumvent a court order calling for the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube. Is Congress stepping over its legal boundaries? And can the court supersede congressional action? CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us now from New York to try to lay it all out for us.

Hi, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You know, I...

TOOBIN: It's daunting, I'll tell you.

PHILLIPS: It is. If you just reverse -- let's go back 15 years. There was no paperwork, obviously. Michael Schiavo said, look, my wife never wanted to live like this. If this were to happen, she wants to go peacefully. So isn't it -- we could go back 15 years ago. By law, isn't it the spouse's responsibility and legal right to do whatever he thinks his wife wanted and should this have been going on for 15 years?

TOOBIN: Usually, that's how it works. And usually -- which is to say, virtually all the time -- this is handled as a private family matter. What made this situation different, for starters, is that Terri Schiavo's parents disagreed with Michael Schiavo. They thought that she should continue to be kept alive. And it was that conflict that brought it out of the family realm and got politicians and lawyers involved. And that was the start of this unbelievably long controversy, now 15 years.

PHILLIPS: Well, you say conflict, but do the parents have any legal rights to do that? Even though it's their daughter. You know, she was married to Michael Schiavo. And legally, isn't he the one that has the right to make the call?

TOOBIN: Ultimately, that is what the courts concluded. But in the absence of a living will -- and I know you've been talking about that on the air -- in the absence of a specific delegation of the power to control medical decisions to a spouse, it can be sometimes a gray area. And this turned into a gray area, although the Florida courts ultimately decided that Michael Schiavo did have the right to make this decision and the Florida courts ruled that the feeding tube could be removed, as he suggested.

PHILLIPS: OK, so now it seems like we have another level of gray matter, gray area. You know, do the courts trump Congress? Does the Congress trump the courts? Then you've got Governor Jeb Bush, who stepped in and put forward this law, a law, I guess, that has now been stalled. I mean, who trumps whom?

TOOBIN: Well, what happened lately -- I mean, rather than go through the whole controversy, what happened in the last few days, is that Florida, in terms of its legislature, had been shut out of the process. The Florida courts said this is -- the final decision is Michael Schiavo is the spokesman. He wants the feeding tube removed. We're going to have it removed by 1:00 today. Congress tried to pass a law stopping that.

It's an interesting question and I don't think there's a clear answer whether Congress's law would have trumped that decision but Congress couldn't get its act together last night. The House passed one bill, the Senate passed the other. So there is no federal law. What Congress did for its plan B, instead of passing a law, a -- one of the congressional committees issued a subpoena to Terri Schiavo saying we want you to appear.

That, it appears, has trumped Florida's earlier decision because just earlier, about an hour ago, I think, a trial court judge in Florida said, we're going to put a stay on the 1:00 feeding tube removal. We're going to stop that and sort out where this subpoena fits into the process. So the status quo now is, the feeding tube will not be removed until further order of the court.

PHILLIPS: Final question, Jeffrey. Could Michael Schiavo just say, all right, that's it. Forget it. I don't want to argue about this anymore. Here you go, mom and dad. Take over. Do whatever you want. I'm out of this. And then this whole thing could just completely go away?

TOOBIN: Well, yes, he certainly could. And that would be the end of the legal process and she could live on, apparently, for many...

PHILLIPS: And this would go -- and this story would go away?

TOOBIN: For many more years. Michael Schiavo, for better or worse, and people can make up their minds about that, has said, look. I am doing what Terri wanted, and you know, this is her wishes, I am her spokesman among the truly living, and I'm doing this for her. But if he were to give up and I think there's a lot of pressure on him to give up, this whole controversy would go away, she would remain in the hospice being fed indefinitely.

PHILLIPS: If she were to die, does he gain anything from that, at this point? Financially, anything?

TOOBIN: You know, Kyra, I don't know. I think the answer is no, but I don't want to -- I don't want to give a clear answer on that, because to be honest, I just am not up on that part of story. PHILLIPS: Jeffrey Toobin. But you're always up on everything else. Our legal analyst.

TOOBIN: I do my best.

PHILLIPS: Yes, you do. And a great job at that. Thanks, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Thanks, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right -- Tony.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In less than 30 minutes from now, the registered sex offender taken in for questioning in the disappearance of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford is to appear in court. CNN's Susan Candiotti is standing by in Augusta, Georgia, where she is learning more about what the man is telling authorities -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Tony.

At this hour, authorities continue to question, as a person of interest in the Jessica Lunsford case, John Couey. But after eight hours over two days, law enforcement sources tell CNN that so far Couey has not told them anything that would significantly move forward this investigation in terms of finding the missing 9-year-old.

Investigators say, however, that Couey is still cooperating. However, they are not clearing him at this time. He is being held on probation violation lace charges filed in Florida. And today he had a meeting at the jail with a judge where he told the judge he would be willing to return to Florida with police voluntarily to face those charges.

Here is what a judge told me after that meeting with Couey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Could you just explain to me briefly what happened.

JUDGE JOHN BAXTER, RICHMOND CO. GA. SUPERIOR COURT: He came in. Nice fellow. Didn't look like anything in the world was wrong with him. I gave him all of his rights. He said he didn't want an attorney. He was ready to go back. He wanted to sign the papers and get out. I said, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Remember, Couey, a convicted sex offender, had been staying with relatives who live very close to the Jessica Lunsford home. Now, Couey will not be getting out today, out of this jail in Augusta, Georgia, no matter what. The sheriff and the district attorney say that those arrangements have to be made by Florida authorities to return him to Florida to face those violation of probation charges. The question is, by the time Couey goes back, will he be cleared as a person of interest in this investigation -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK, we'll wait and see. Susan Candiotti in Augusta, Georgia. Susan, thank you.

Well, we still don't know if this was a serious plot or just some guy talking out of school, but a man in a Montana jail today faces solicitation charges after an alleged ransom plan came to light involving "Late Show" host David Letterman's baby boy.

CNN's David Haffenreffer has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID HAFFENREFFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was a proud papa when his son, Harry Joseph, was born in November 2003. His boy was all he could talk about.

DAVID LETTERMAN, "LATE SHOW" HOST: My father passed away when he was 57. I'm 56 years old, and yesterday I had my first child. So I named him for my father, and his name is Harry Joseph Letterman.

HAFFENREFFER: But a parent's worse nightmare, a plot to kidnap his only son. The suspect, 43-year-old Kelly Frank, he worked as a painter on the Montana ranch. Officials say he was arrested Sunday when a friend of Frank's went to the cops and told him he was approached with plans. Letterman's sprawling ranch was the target about 60 miles out of Great Falls, near Shoto (ph). This isn't the first time Letterman's personal life has been invaded.

In 1988, Margaret Ray was arrested for stalking Letterman and breaking into his Connecticut home. She once told reporters she left cookies and an empty bottle of Jack Daniels in the foyer. The troubled woman committed suicide seven years ago. That same year, another woman was arrested for trespassing at that same home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, there's yet more good news for people who like the occasional drink. After the break, the possible link between alcohol and preventing diabetes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: This just in to CNN. It's a story that just continues to unravel. As you know, the 41-year-old woman who's been on a feeding tube now 15 years. We came forward and told you that today was the day that a court was supposed to make a decision on whether the feeding tube was to be pulled. And just before 1:00, a judge came forward, Pinellas court judge, and said, no, I'm blocking it The tube stays in.

Now, we're getting another word from another Pinellas court judge, I don't know if it's the same one or not, saying the tube can be removed. So back and forth, back and forth. That's the latest at this moment.

We've been also been talking to you about Congress now getting involved, intervening in this, issuing five subpoenas that are supposed to be delivered next week, asking that Terri Schiavo and her husband, Michael Schiavo, and those that have been caring for Terri Schiavo come before members of Congress in a congressional hearing about what should happen to Terri Schiavo.

That, of course, has ignited this debate between the right to die, whether the government should intervene in an individual's life, and be involved with whether a -- parents, or a spouse or the government should intervene and make the decision on whether a feeding tube should be pulled or not. And of course, it all comes down to, from the very beginning, there was never any paperwork. A living will was never established. So for 15 years -- we'll bring in Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst now, this back and forth controversy going on. Jeffrey, it was between Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo's parents, and now, 15 years later, there are courts involved. There are judges involved, and now members of Congress involved. And now another judge stepping forward saying the feeding tube can be removed.

How do you make sense of all this?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's often difficult to make sense of the legal system, but the status quo has just changed dramatically, because coming in to today, the status quo was feeding tube to be removed at 1:00. A judge issued a ruling I think a little more than an hour ago saying, no, I'm going to stay that ruling.

Now, that stay has been overturned, and the -- the rule is the feeding tube can be removed. Given the passions involved here, I would not be at all surprised to see both this ruling be appealed through the Florida state court system, and perhaps the federal courts getting involved. The members of Congress who are pushing for the feeding tube to remain in are very passionately engaged. There is a subpoena that has now been issued. So I expect that a federal court will be asked to overturn the state court and reissue a stay so the feeding tube cannot be removed.

PHILLIPS: Jeffrey, when you look at how the decisions are being made, and even in the past, what, hour or so, feeding tube will be removed no, it won't, yes, it will, just sort of this back and forth, back and forth, you sort of wonder when will the cycle end, and at what point will a decision be made and that's it? And so now you've got Congress involved. Is it possible, now that Congress is involved, that this could come to an end, or because it is a gray area legally, could this just be another governmental -- part of government getting involved, and now you've got Congress, the courts, the family, the lack of a living will, a law that's in place, and then decided it's unconstitutional. I mean, it's just -- you wonder, when is there finally going to be a decision that is solid and you move forward?

TOOBIN: Kyra, you know, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, you know, this situation could go on for a lot longer with a lot more complexity because what's happened here is that Congress came very close to passing a law last night. The House passed one, the Senate passed the other. Nothing can become law unless they pass exactly the same bill, but, given the pressure of these events and given the fact that the feeding tube is now due to be removed again, Congress could pass yet another law, I mean, and they could finally get together and pass an actual law together, which President Bush has indicated he will sign.

At that point, a whole new litigation, round of litigation, could begin over whether such a law is constitutional, whether it should be applied to Terri Schiavo.

So I hate to tell you, the complexity of this situation is only getting greater. It's not getting less.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much.

Stand by. I'm sure within the next hour or so something else will happen and we'll need you to try to make sense of this. Thanks, Jeffrey.

SERWER: A check -- we'll take a break from the Schiavo case in just a moment. A check on the financial markets is coming up next when LIVE FROM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 18, 2005 - 13:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The Terri Schiavo case is now at the center of a very complex legal web, with Congress trying circumvent a court order calling for the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube. Is Congress stepping over its legal boundaries? And can the court supersede congressional action? CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us now from New York to try to lay it all out for us.

Hi, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You know, I...

TOOBIN: It's daunting, I'll tell you.

PHILLIPS: It is. If you just reverse -- let's go back 15 years. There was no paperwork, obviously. Michael Schiavo said, look, my wife never wanted to live like this. If this were to happen, she wants to go peacefully. So isn't it -- we could go back 15 years ago. By law, isn't it the spouse's responsibility and legal right to do whatever he thinks his wife wanted and should this have been going on for 15 years?

TOOBIN: Usually, that's how it works. And usually -- which is to say, virtually all the time -- this is handled as a private family matter. What made this situation different, for starters, is that Terri Schiavo's parents disagreed with Michael Schiavo. They thought that she should continue to be kept alive. And it was that conflict that brought it out of the family realm and got politicians and lawyers involved. And that was the start of this unbelievably long controversy, now 15 years.

PHILLIPS: Well, you say conflict, but do the parents have any legal rights to do that? Even though it's their daughter. You know, she was married to Michael Schiavo. And legally, isn't he the one that has the right to make the call?

TOOBIN: Ultimately, that is what the courts concluded. But in the absence of a living will -- and I know you've been talking about that on the air -- in the absence of a specific delegation of the power to control medical decisions to a spouse, it can be sometimes a gray area. And this turned into a gray area, although the Florida courts ultimately decided that Michael Schiavo did have the right to make this decision and the Florida courts ruled that the feeding tube could be removed, as he suggested.

PHILLIPS: OK, so now it seems like we have another level of gray matter, gray area. You know, do the courts trump Congress? Does the Congress trump the courts? Then you've got Governor Jeb Bush, who stepped in and put forward this law, a law, I guess, that has now been stalled. I mean, who trumps whom?

TOOBIN: Well, what happened lately -- I mean, rather than go through the whole controversy, what happened in the last few days, is that Florida, in terms of its legislature, had been shut out of the process. The Florida courts said this is -- the final decision is Michael Schiavo is the spokesman. He wants the feeding tube removed. We're going to have it removed by 1:00 today. Congress tried to pass a law stopping that.

It's an interesting question and I don't think there's a clear answer whether Congress's law would have trumped that decision but Congress couldn't get its act together last night. The House passed one bill, the Senate passed the other. So there is no federal law. What Congress did for its plan B, instead of passing a law, a -- one of the congressional committees issued a subpoena to Terri Schiavo saying we want you to appear.

That, it appears, has trumped Florida's earlier decision because just earlier, about an hour ago, I think, a trial court judge in Florida said, we're going to put a stay on the 1:00 feeding tube removal. We're going to stop that and sort out where this subpoena fits into the process. So the status quo now is, the feeding tube will not be removed until further order of the court.

PHILLIPS: Final question, Jeffrey. Could Michael Schiavo just say, all right, that's it. Forget it. I don't want to argue about this anymore. Here you go, mom and dad. Take over. Do whatever you want. I'm out of this. And then this whole thing could just completely go away?

TOOBIN: Well, yes, he certainly could. And that would be the end of the legal process and she could live on, apparently, for many...

PHILLIPS: And this would go -- and this story would go away?

TOOBIN: For many more years. Michael Schiavo, for better or worse, and people can make up their minds about that, has said, look. I am doing what Terri wanted, and you know, this is her wishes, I am her spokesman among the truly living, and I'm doing this for her. But if he were to give up and I think there's a lot of pressure on him to give up, this whole controversy would go away, she would remain in the hospice being fed indefinitely.

PHILLIPS: If she were to die, does he gain anything from that, at this point? Financially, anything?

TOOBIN: You know, Kyra, I don't know. I think the answer is no, but I don't want to -- I don't want to give a clear answer on that, because to be honest, I just am not up on that part of story. PHILLIPS: Jeffrey Toobin. But you're always up on everything else. Our legal analyst.

TOOBIN: I do my best.

PHILLIPS: Yes, you do. And a great job at that. Thanks, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Thanks, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right -- Tony.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In less than 30 minutes from now, the registered sex offender taken in for questioning in the disappearance of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford is to appear in court. CNN's Susan Candiotti is standing by in Augusta, Georgia, where she is learning more about what the man is telling authorities -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Tony.

At this hour, authorities continue to question, as a person of interest in the Jessica Lunsford case, John Couey. But after eight hours over two days, law enforcement sources tell CNN that so far Couey has not told them anything that would significantly move forward this investigation in terms of finding the missing 9-year-old.

Investigators say, however, that Couey is still cooperating. However, they are not clearing him at this time. He is being held on probation violation lace charges filed in Florida. And today he had a meeting at the jail with a judge where he told the judge he would be willing to return to Florida with police voluntarily to face those charges.

Here is what a judge told me after that meeting with Couey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Could you just explain to me briefly what happened.

JUDGE JOHN BAXTER, RICHMOND CO. GA. SUPERIOR COURT: He came in. Nice fellow. Didn't look like anything in the world was wrong with him. I gave him all of his rights. He said he didn't want an attorney. He was ready to go back. He wanted to sign the papers and get out. I said, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Remember, Couey, a convicted sex offender, had been staying with relatives who live very close to the Jessica Lunsford home. Now, Couey will not be getting out today, out of this jail in Augusta, Georgia, no matter what. The sheriff and the district attorney say that those arrangements have to be made by Florida authorities to return him to Florida to face those violation of probation charges. The question is, by the time Couey goes back, will he be cleared as a person of interest in this investigation -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK, we'll wait and see. Susan Candiotti in Augusta, Georgia. Susan, thank you.

Well, we still don't know if this was a serious plot or just some guy talking out of school, but a man in a Montana jail today faces solicitation charges after an alleged ransom plan came to light involving "Late Show" host David Letterman's baby boy.

CNN's David Haffenreffer has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID HAFFENREFFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was a proud papa when his son, Harry Joseph, was born in November 2003. His boy was all he could talk about.

DAVID LETTERMAN, "LATE SHOW" HOST: My father passed away when he was 57. I'm 56 years old, and yesterday I had my first child. So I named him for my father, and his name is Harry Joseph Letterman.

HAFFENREFFER: But a parent's worse nightmare, a plot to kidnap his only son. The suspect, 43-year-old Kelly Frank, he worked as a painter on the Montana ranch. Officials say he was arrested Sunday when a friend of Frank's went to the cops and told him he was approached with plans. Letterman's sprawling ranch was the target about 60 miles out of Great Falls, near Shoto (ph). This isn't the first time Letterman's personal life has been invaded.

In 1988, Margaret Ray was arrested for stalking Letterman and breaking into his Connecticut home. She once told reporters she left cookies and an empty bottle of Jack Daniels in the foyer. The troubled woman committed suicide seven years ago. That same year, another woman was arrested for trespassing at that same home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, there's yet more good news for people who like the occasional drink. After the break, the possible link between alcohol and preventing diabetes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: This just in to CNN. It's a story that just continues to unravel. As you know, the 41-year-old woman who's been on a feeding tube now 15 years. We came forward and told you that today was the day that a court was supposed to make a decision on whether the feeding tube was to be pulled. And just before 1:00, a judge came forward, Pinellas court judge, and said, no, I'm blocking it The tube stays in.

Now, we're getting another word from another Pinellas court judge, I don't know if it's the same one or not, saying the tube can be removed. So back and forth, back and forth. That's the latest at this moment.

We've been also been talking to you about Congress now getting involved, intervening in this, issuing five subpoenas that are supposed to be delivered next week, asking that Terri Schiavo and her husband, Michael Schiavo, and those that have been caring for Terri Schiavo come before members of Congress in a congressional hearing about what should happen to Terri Schiavo.

That, of course, has ignited this debate between the right to die, whether the government should intervene in an individual's life, and be involved with whether a -- parents, or a spouse or the government should intervene and make the decision on whether a feeding tube should be pulled or not. And of course, it all comes down to, from the very beginning, there was never any paperwork. A living will was never established. So for 15 years -- we'll bring in Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst now, this back and forth controversy going on. Jeffrey, it was between Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo's parents, and now, 15 years later, there are courts involved. There are judges involved, and now members of Congress involved. And now another judge stepping forward saying the feeding tube can be removed.

How do you make sense of all this?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's often difficult to make sense of the legal system, but the status quo has just changed dramatically, because coming in to today, the status quo was feeding tube to be removed at 1:00. A judge issued a ruling I think a little more than an hour ago saying, no, I'm going to stay that ruling.

Now, that stay has been overturned, and the -- the rule is the feeding tube can be removed. Given the passions involved here, I would not be at all surprised to see both this ruling be appealed through the Florida state court system, and perhaps the federal courts getting involved. The members of Congress who are pushing for the feeding tube to remain in are very passionately engaged. There is a subpoena that has now been issued. So I expect that a federal court will be asked to overturn the state court and reissue a stay so the feeding tube cannot be removed.

PHILLIPS: Jeffrey, when you look at how the decisions are being made, and even in the past, what, hour or so, feeding tube will be removed no, it won't, yes, it will, just sort of this back and forth, back and forth, you sort of wonder when will the cycle end, and at what point will a decision be made and that's it? And so now you've got Congress involved. Is it possible, now that Congress is involved, that this could come to an end, or because it is a gray area legally, could this just be another governmental -- part of government getting involved, and now you've got Congress, the courts, the family, the lack of a living will, a law that's in place, and then decided it's unconstitutional. I mean, it's just -- you wonder, when is there finally going to be a decision that is solid and you move forward?

TOOBIN: Kyra, you know, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, you know, this situation could go on for a lot longer with a lot more complexity because what's happened here is that Congress came very close to passing a law last night. The House passed one, the Senate passed the other. Nothing can become law unless they pass exactly the same bill, but, given the pressure of these events and given the fact that the feeding tube is now due to be removed again, Congress could pass yet another law, I mean, and they could finally get together and pass an actual law together, which President Bush has indicated he will sign.

At that point, a whole new litigation, round of litigation, could begin over whether such a law is constitutional, whether it should be applied to Terri Schiavo.

So I hate to tell you, the complexity of this situation is only getting greater. It's not getting less.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much.

Stand by. I'm sure within the next hour or so something else will happen and we'll need you to try to make sense of this. Thanks, Jeffrey.

SERWER: A check -- we'll take a break from the Schiavo case in just a moment. A check on the financial markets is coming up next when LIVE FROM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com