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Judge Rules Against Parents of Terri Schiavo; Interview With Jeff Burton

Aired March 18, 2005 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A personal tragedy, a medical quandary, political, legal, governmental controversies bordering on hostilities.
The past several hours in the 15-year odyssey of Terri Schiavo have typified the fervent battle between her husband and parents and each side's proxies over the feeding tube that keeps Schiavo alive. Congressional subpoenas collide with state court orders on a day in which the two may be removed for the third, but not necessarily the final time.

We get the latest from CNN's Carol Lin at Schiavo's hospice in Clearwater, Florida, and CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin in New York.

Carol, we go to you first.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, Kyra, let me tell you exactly what I understand is going on right now.

In talking with the right-to-life groups that have gathered out here in prayer vigil for Terri Schiavo and her family, they are saying they believe that the process is now just beginning, with doctors preparing Terri Schiavo for the removal of the feeding tube, that the family is standing by, that they are at her bedside in vigil as they wait for any word from their attorneys to see if there's any legal recourse left.

What I understand from these various groups, their attorneys are meeting in Washington, D.C., to find out whether there can be a temporary restraining order filed by a federal judge, whether the U.S. House of Representatives will act on its part.

What we understand happened today shortly after 1:00 is they were searching for the Circuit Court Judge George Greer, which has presided over many decisions in this case. They couldn't find him. There was a delay in removing Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, so that this House subpoena for her to appear before Congress could be heard out in a local court here.

What happened was, Judge George Greer finally heard out the case in a teleconference with various attorneys on both sides and he decided that there was no reason why a congressional committee, the Congressional Committee on Reform of Government, should be intervening in this case. The implications, according to Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband, are that, if this subpoena was valid, that Congress could then act on any care of any patient nationwide, and that this was not the role of a federal body.

So, Kyra, the judge agreed with that argument, and we are waiting to hear if there will be any further legal action by the parents, but they are running out of options.

PHILLIPS: All right, Carol Lin, we'll keep in touch with you there in Clearwater, Florida. Thank you so much -- Tony.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the face of a Florida judge's apparent disregard for congressional subpoenas, lawyers for the House are seeking their own brand of judicial relief. And if you don't think Republicans mean business, you must have missed today's public remarks by Majority Leader Tom DeLay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: This is not over. We haven't stopped working on it. We will fight for Terri's life and spend all the time necessary to do that. So, to friends, family and millions of people praying around the world this Palm Sunday weekend, don't be afraid. Terri Schiavo will not be forsaken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: So where are we?

CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is watching these minute-by- minute developments from our studios in New York.

And, Jeffrey, I almost want to throw it to you open-ended. The presiding judge says, we're moving forward. We're making preparations right now. Forget about these subpoenas from Congress. I've issued my ruling and my ruling will stand. And we're moving forward.

What do you think?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, something has to happen to break that status quo or the feeding tube will be removed.

The two things that are most likely to happen in the next legal steps are, the Congress, having filed this subpoena, having issued the subpoena to Terri Schiavo, may go to federal court and try to enforce it and try to say to a federal judge, look, you to issue a stay. You have to tell the state of Florida not to allow Terri Schiavo to die or our subpoena won't be able to be enforced. That would come through a federal court. That apparently is something that is being considered.

Another possibility is, the House of Representatives and the Senate could get together and pass the law they tried to pass last night, in which case they could then go to a federal judge and say, the federal law supersedes anything that's been done in Florida. Enforce the federal law. Stop the feeding tube from being removed.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I'm sorry. Go ahead. HARRIS: No, I'm just curious. Isn't this a separation of powers question here? Aren't we talking about Congress stepping in and big- footing this -- the state judge, who has been living with this case for years now?

TOOBIN: Well, one of the many legal questions here is one you point to, Tony, is, who has jurisdiction over Terri? You know, under most constitutional decisions, the federal government trumps the state government. So, if the federal government were to step in with a contradictory ruling that was constitutional under the United States Constitution, that potentially would trump what's going on in the state.

But that's not clear that that would happen. You also have the issue of the subpoena. Can that be enforced over a state court ruling? Apparently, the judge said no today. The state judge said no, that a congressional subpoena cannot stop the operations of a state court. But all these rulings can be appealed. So far, though, no one associated with Terri Schiavo's parents has won an appeal to stop what's going on.

HARRIS: Exactly. And when you look at the record of appeals all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, it has basically fallen in line with the decisions made by the state.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, you lead me to what I'm just holding in my hand here. The Florida Intermediate Court of Appeals made a decision in this case two days ago on March 16. And they wrote -- this is the first page of the opinion. This case has an extensive legal history.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOOBIN: And I don't know if you can see it here. I'm trying to hold it up so it's visible.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOOBIN: This footnote here lists 21 opinions that have been written in this case.

HARRIS: Oh, my.

TOOBIN: That's how complicated this story is. There have been 21 written opinions and several that have not been published. That's how complicated this has been over these last 15 years.

And I hate to say it, whether it's right or wrong. It's not over, necessarily.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: It's not over. OK, Jeffrey Toobin, we appreciate it. Thanks, Jeffrey.

The Atlanta Police chief, changing gears now, is acknowledging more mistakes in the pursuit last week of Brian Nichols, the courthouse shooting suspect. Shedding new light on the events of the day, Chief Richard Pennington says Nichols spent up to 12 hours milling about near a busy mall, even as police mounted a desperate search to find him.

At a news conference with Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin, Pennington also cited communication problems within various law enforcement agencies. And he repeated his earlier criticism of the lengthy search for a purported getaway car that had never left a downtown parking lot.

Joining us now, our law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks, to sort it out.

Of all of the problems here, what's the most egregious that jumps at you?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'll tell you, there's not any one single point.

HARRIS: Yes.

BROOKS: But not having found that car and all the manpower and resources that went to waste for 12 hours looking for that car...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: Let's make that clear. Make the point clearly, because that's 12 hours that could have been spent...

BROOKS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

HARRIS: OK.

BROOKS: And as soon as they had a victim, an assault victim there, he gave a description. Man didn't have a shirt. One of the things I'm going to do as a commander, I'm going to block off that whole parking garage, that's crime scene, go level to level car by car with a SWAT team and look for that person, as well as look for any possible evidence that could have been there.

HARRIS: Yes.

And then there's this issue of the Lenox Square Mall area and the kind of trendy entertainment section of Atlanta known as Buckhead.

BROOKS: Right.

HARRIS: Brian Nichols asked for directions.

BROOKS: He asked the "AJC" reporter who he assaulted in that garage...

HARRIS: For directions.

BROOKS: For directions to there. Now, that didn't get back to the command post. You had Atlanta Police officers, Atlanta Police investigators talking to him initially. That information did not get back to the Fulton County command center, where everything was supposed to be the clearinghouse of all the information going through this case. They didn't even hear about it until later, until the day after that.

HARRIS: And I suppose folks would be outraged to hear -- I'm trying to look at this from both sides. I'm sure some folks will be outraged when they hear Chief Pennington, who we both know, say that APD didn't take control of the streets, the situation on the ground, until about 9:45.

BROOKS: An hour after Deputy Hall was struck in the heads by Nichols and her gun taken.

HARRIS: What are we to make of that?

BROOKS: Well, that goes into the communications problem. What they need is a mutual aid channel that works, a citywide -- in D.C., we used to call it citywide.

HARRIS: OK.

BROOKS: If there was a chase from one jurisdiction to the other, we could get all jurisdictions on that one channel, do away with all the 10 codes, the police talk, the police jargon, if you will, talk plain English on the radio, because different jurisdictions have different 10 codes.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: Ten-four, everybody knows what that is. But there's other codes that say things that only cops know about. And there are different ones for different jurisdictions. Plain talk, that's what is needed.

HARRIS: Yes.

And I got to tell you, our producer, Melissa Block (ph), was making the point earlier that it sounds reminiscent of 9/11 and some of the confusion with the firefighters and police not being on the same frequency there as well.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

Well, you would have thought that they had settled back in 1996, when the Olympics were here. And with so many jurisdictions in the metro Atlanta area, they need to have a better communications system between all of them to talk unit to unit, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

HARRIS: So, at the very least, what has to come out of this is a better communications system.

BROOKS: A better communications system, a better incident command system between the different departments. HARRIS: Mike Brooks, appreciate it.

BROOKS: Thank you, Tony.

HARRIS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right, most of you watching this show probably need a day off, right?

HARRIS: You're getting a couple pretty soon. I'm not. It's proof.

PHILLIPS: Are you upset?

HARRIS: Proof that you need to convince your boss of that, Straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

PHILLIPS: Also ahead on LIVE FROM, we're going to take the poll position with NASCAR driver Jeff Burton, as he makes a pit stop here on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: More news across America now.

A scare for Dave Letterman. Police have arrested a Montana man on charges that he was plotting to kidnap the talk show host's year- old son and nanny. Police say they were tipped off by someone the suspect allegedly approached to help him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: What happens in Camelot stays in Camelot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Good advice anywhere you go. Monty Python comes to Broadway 30 years after the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." "SpamAlot" the Broadway version of the comedy, debuted last night in New York City. A star-studded audience, including the five surviving members of the original cast, were on hand for the premiere.

And this is not your ordinary gas station restroom. Wow. The bathroom near Los Angeles is 10 feet wide, has silver columns and marble counters, as you can see, and flowers or something, sconces. As the owner puts it, "I want to show how much I respect my customers." And all we can say is, we hope it's good for his bottom line. Sorry.

PHILLIPS: Oh.

HARRIS: Sorry.

"THE TURNAROUND," it's a new CNN program about helping small businesses grow big. It airs Saturday mornings at 11:00 Eastern.

Here's CNN's Ali Velshi with a preview of tomorrow's show.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Episode two of "THE TURNAROUND" focused on the fitness business. We travel to San Francisco to meet Simon Redmond (ph) and Paul Wade (ph), two young Irish immigrants who own a boxing gym.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just decided, let's go for ourselves. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gym is the result.

VELSHI: But the gym's bottom line was a little flabby. So, to get it back into shape, we introduced Simon and Paul Mark Mastrov. He's the CEO of 24 Hour Fitness, one of the nation's largest health club chains.

MARK MASTROV, CEO AND FOUNDER, 24 HOUR FITNESS: I just fell in love with the business. It was fun. It was exciting. You're helping people. It's all about positive, a lot of energy.

VELSHI: To keep the guys off the mat, Mark had them focus on four things, sharpen their brand recognition, get a better handle on their finances, with a clear profit-and-loss statement, create a budget that will let them take some money out of the business, and write up a shareholder agreement that would spell out each partner's obligations. By the end of day three, Simon and Paul were in much better shape, thanks largely to the help from the team at 24 Hour Fitness.

I'm Ali Velshi. See you next time on "THE TURNAROUND."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: All right, Ali, we're going to be watching.

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

PHILLIPS: Well, he's used to taking the checkered flag, but will NASCAR driver Jeff Burton be taking the oath of office?

HARRIS: Just ahead on LIVE FROM, he slows down long enough to talk to Kyra about his driving ambitions on and off the track.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Fast cars, hard liquor, a diverse crowd, sounds like a party to us, huh, Tony?

HARRIS: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Does it sound like a party to you? Well, to us, it sounds like NASCAR.

And some hot topics to discuss with top NASCAR driver, No. 31, Jeff Burton. I sat down with him yesterday about a driving ambition and the image of racing. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Ashton Kutcher I guess was the honorary starter at the Daytona 500 and said some things to the effect of, I'm a redneck. This is a redneck sport. Here we go. And it didn't make a lot of people really happy. You guys don't listen to that stuff, though, do you?

JEFF BURTON, NASCAR DRIVER: We try not to pay attention to a whole lot of that stuff. That's for sure.

(LAUGHTER)

BURTON: The thing is that this sport does have it original roots in the South. There's no denying that and there should be no shame in that.

But this sport has -- from all types of ways, has become much more diverse than it was. And this is certainly not just a sport that people, you know, just rednecks sit down and watch. It's kids. It's adults. It's all kinds of people.

PHILLIPS: Yes. And I love it when people say, oh, Kyra, you know NASCAR, you gear head, you redneck. I thought oh, no, no, no, no. It's much more diverse than that. And let's talk that.

Let's talk about the diversity angle, because you've been really involved with this and your team is very involved. The race in Mexico, this was interesting, south of the border to get Hispanics interested in NASCAR. Is it working?

BURTON: Oh, I think it's a great concept. I think that going to Mexico is a natural move for NASCAR. It's in our best interests to go to a lot of different places, as many as we can go.

And I think going to Mexico and going to Canada, those two things make a tremendous amount of sense, because there are a lot of race fans in Mexico and in Canada. And we need to get out and reach them, so they can see our sport. The thing that we need to do as a sport is to get it in front of as many people as we can, because the more people that watch it, the more people like it. So, we need to get them watching it and then they will have more -- they will have a tremendous amount of fun.

PHILLIPS: What about diversity among drivers? I know there's been a push lately to get more Hispanic, African-American, female. Is it enough?

BURTON: Well, the effort's enough. The result hasn't yielded enough just yet. And it doesn't need to just be drivers. It needs to be crew members. It needs to be across the board.

For us to be a mainstream sport in America, we need to be a cross-section of America. We need more minorities in our sport. There's a huge effort to bring more minorities in our sport, because it's the right thing to do. But it has to start at the bottom. I mean, we've got to get people in our sport interested in our sport on a local level first. I became a race car driver. The first race I drove was at South Boston Speedway when I was just 16 years old.

PHILLIPS: I thought it was go-carts.

BURTON: Well, the first car race I drove.

(LAUGHTER)

BURTON: I just didn't turn into a NASCAR Cup driver. I had to learn my skills.

So, we have got to do things that we can to create energy and excitement around our sport to give minorities a chance to see it and then to get to the sport on a local level, to get involved, so that everybody can learn the skill to take it to the highest level. That's what we've got to do, is create excitement and energy at the local levels first.

PHILLIPS: OK.

Let's talk sponsorship, liquor ads, big controversy, I guess depending on who you talk to. The Petty family feels very strongly about this. Let's take a listen to what Richard Petty told me not too long ago. And I want to get you to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD PETTY, NASCAR DRIVER: NASCAR is a big family. And then when they turn around and really, you know, got the liquor sponsorship, that to me kind of interferes with the family part of it. So, you know, some of the -- I guess it's good for the guys that don't have sponsors to be able to get them as sponsors, but for the overall health of the sport, I don't see no pluses in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: What do you think?

BURTON: Well, first of all, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Richard Petty and the things he's done for our sport.

But I disagree with him in most of what he said there. It's my opinion that alcohol is out on the shelves. It's not a big secret that you can buy alcohol. I don't think it should be a secret from our children. I think we should talk to our children about alcohol and the responsibility of using it and, when they're not old enough, not to use it at all.

And I think what you'll see -- I really believe that, when the alcohol companies come into our sport -- they've never been allowed before -- they're going to raise the level of awareness. Their marketing campaigns are going to be based on responsible drinking. They're going to be based on doing the right thing.

And that's going to make the beer companies pick up their level of responsibility. You really -- if you compare the responsible message from beer companies vs. liquor companies, the liquor companies really beat the beer companies in the responsible message. And so I think that responsibility with drinking and understanding the dangers of drinking will be brought to another level. There's no secret that you can go to a bar and have a drink, and nor should it be. There shouldn't be any shame in having a drink.

PHILLIPS: No secret that you're having drinks at a NASCAR race either.

BURTON: Exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: Well, we need to talk about what -- the dangers of it. And I think having it out there in the open, there is nothing wrong with that. But we need -- it needs to be done responsibly and it needs to be done the right way. And I think what we've seen so far lives up to those two...

PHILLIPS: Jeff Burton running for Congress next week. I'll be helping you with your campaign.

BURTON: Senate. I want to run for Senate.

PHILLIPS: Oh, Senate. Oops. Sorry about that. Better watch myself.

BURTON: It's OK.

PHILLIPS: All right, big race this weekend. You ready? You excited? What's new for you since we talked last year before this race?

BURTON: Oh, a lot of news since we talked last year. I'm driving for Richard Childress Racing, with Cingular Wireless as a sponsor. That's really been a great thing. It's been lot of fun working with Richard and all the guys with Team Cingular.

Last year, we were working for the sponsor, and now we got the best sponsor in the sport. So, that's a big change of fortune. This week, we got a brand new car that just came out of the wind tunnel at 4:00 in the morning. So, a lot of people working.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: Nothing like coming out of the wind tunnel at 4:00 in the morning.

BURTON: Oh, yes. A lot of people working really hard, so a lot of really good things. We're really excited about what is going on.

All right, we'll be watching. Jeff Burton, AKA future senator, NASCAR driver, he's going to win this weekend. So he says. We'll be watching.

Thanks.

BURTON: That's right. Sounds good.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Good guy. If you don't like him, something's wrong with you, huh?

PHILLIPS: That's right. He is. He is a good guy and a good driver, too.

That wraps it up for us here on LIVE FROM.

HARRIS: Have a good weekend.

PHILLIPS: Thank you. You, too.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 18, 2005 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A personal tragedy, a medical quandary, political, legal, governmental controversies bordering on hostilities.
The past several hours in the 15-year odyssey of Terri Schiavo have typified the fervent battle between her husband and parents and each side's proxies over the feeding tube that keeps Schiavo alive. Congressional subpoenas collide with state court orders on a day in which the two may be removed for the third, but not necessarily the final time.

We get the latest from CNN's Carol Lin at Schiavo's hospice in Clearwater, Florida, and CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin in New York.

Carol, we go to you first.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, Kyra, let me tell you exactly what I understand is going on right now.

In talking with the right-to-life groups that have gathered out here in prayer vigil for Terri Schiavo and her family, they are saying they believe that the process is now just beginning, with doctors preparing Terri Schiavo for the removal of the feeding tube, that the family is standing by, that they are at her bedside in vigil as they wait for any word from their attorneys to see if there's any legal recourse left.

What I understand from these various groups, their attorneys are meeting in Washington, D.C., to find out whether there can be a temporary restraining order filed by a federal judge, whether the U.S. House of Representatives will act on its part.

What we understand happened today shortly after 1:00 is they were searching for the Circuit Court Judge George Greer, which has presided over many decisions in this case. They couldn't find him. There was a delay in removing Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, so that this House subpoena for her to appear before Congress could be heard out in a local court here.

What happened was, Judge George Greer finally heard out the case in a teleconference with various attorneys on both sides and he decided that there was no reason why a congressional committee, the Congressional Committee on Reform of Government, should be intervening in this case. The implications, according to Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband, are that, if this subpoena was valid, that Congress could then act on any care of any patient nationwide, and that this was not the role of a federal body.

So, Kyra, the judge agreed with that argument, and we are waiting to hear if there will be any further legal action by the parents, but they are running out of options.

PHILLIPS: All right, Carol Lin, we'll keep in touch with you there in Clearwater, Florida. Thank you so much -- Tony.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the face of a Florida judge's apparent disregard for congressional subpoenas, lawyers for the House are seeking their own brand of judicial relief. And if you don't think Republicans mean business, you must have missed today's public remarks by Majority Leader Tom DeLay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: This is not over. We haven't stopped working on it. We will fight for Terri's life and spend all the time necessary to do that. So, to friends, family and millions of people praying around the world this Palm Sunday weekend, don't be afraid. Terri Schiavo will not be forsaken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: So where are we?

CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is watching these minute-by- minute developments from our studios in New York.

And, Jeffrey, I almost want to throw it to you open-ended. The presiding judge says, we're moving forward. We're making preparations right now. Forget about these subpoenas from Congress. I've issued my ruling and my ruling will stand. And we're moving forward.

What do you think?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, something has to happen to break that status quo or the feeding tube will be removed.

The two things that are most likely to happen in the next legal steps are, the Congress, having filed this subpoena, having issued the subpoena to Terri Schiavo, may go to federal court and try to enforce it and try to say to a federal judge, look, you to issue a stay. You have to tell the state of Florida not to allow Terri Schiavo to die or our subpoena won't be able to be enforced. That would come through a federal court. That apparently is something that is being considered.

Another possibility is, the House of Representatives and the Senate could get together and pass the law they tried to pass last night, in which case they could then go to a federal judge and say, the federal law supersedes anything that's been done in Florida. Enforce the federal law. Stop the feeding tube from being removed.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I'm sorry. Go ahead. HARRIS: No, I'm just curious. Isn't this a separation of powers question here? Aren't we talking about Congress stepping in and big- footing this -- the state judge, who has been living with this case for years now?

TOOBIN: Well, one of the many legal questions here is one you point to, Tony, is, who has jurisdiction over Terri? You know, under most constitutional decisions, the federal government trumps the state government. So, if the federal government were to step in with a contradictory ruling that was constitutional under the United States Constitution, that potentially would trump what's going on in the state.

But that's not clear that that would happen. You also have the issue of the subpoena. Can that be enforced over a state court ruling? Apparently, the judge said no today. The state judge said no, that a congressional subpoena cannot stop the operations of a state court. But all these rulings can be appealed. So far, though, no one associated with Terri Schiavo's parents has won an appeal to stop what's going on.

HARRIS: Exactly. And when you look at the record of appeals all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, it has basically fallen in line with the decisions made by the state.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, you lead me to what I'm just holding in my hand here. The Florida Intermediate Court of Appeals made a decision in this case two days ago on March 16. And they wrote -- this is the first page of the opinion. This case has an extensive legal history.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOOBIN: And I don't know if you can see it here. I'm trying to hold it up so it's visible.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOOBIN: This footnote here lists 21 opinions that have been written in this case.

HARRIS: Oh, my.

TOOBIN: That's how complicated this story is. There have been 21 written opinions and several that have not been published. That's how complicated this has been over these last 15 years.

And I hate to say it, whether it's right or wrong. It's not over, necessarily.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: It's not over. OK, Jeffrey Toobin, we appreciate it. Thanks, Jeffrey.

The Atlanta Police chief, changing gears now, is acknowledging more mistakes in the pursuit last week of Brian Nichols, the courthouse shooting suspect. Shedding new light on the events of the day, Chief Richard Pennington says Nichols spent up to 12 hours milling about near a busy mall, even as police mounted a desperate search to find him.

At a news conference with Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin, Pennington also cited communication problems within various law enforcement agencies. And he repeated his earlier criticism of the lengthy search for a purported getaway car that had never left a downtown parking lot.

Joining us now, our law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks, to sort it out.

Of all of the problems here, what's the most egregious that jumps at you?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'll tell you, there's not any one single point.

HARRIS: Yes.

BROOKS: But not having found that car and all the manpower and resources that went to waste for 12 hours looking for that car...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: Let's make that clear. Make the point clearly, because that's 12 hours that could have been spent...

BROOKS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

HARRIS: OK.

BROOKS: And as soon as they had a victim, an assault victim there, he gave a description. Man didn't have a shirt. One of the things I'm going to do as a commander, I'm going to block off that whole parking garage, that's crime scene, go level to level car by car with a SWAT team and look for that person, as well as look for any possible evidence that could have been there.

HARRIS: Yes.

And then there's this issue of the Lenox Square Mall area and the kind of trendy entertainment section of Atlanta known as Buckhead.

BROOKS: Right.

HARRIS: Brian Nichols asked for directions.

BROOKS: He asked the "AJC" reporter who he assaulted in that garage...

HARRIS: For directions.

BROOKS: For directions to there. Now, that didn't get back to the command post. You had Atlanta Police officers, Atlanta Police investigators talking to him initially. That information did not get back to the Fulton County command center, where everything was supposed to be the clearinghouse of all the information going through this case. They didn't even hear about it until later, until the day after that.

HARRIS: And I suppose folks would be outraged to hear -- I'm trying to look at this from both sides. I'm sure some folks will be outraged when they hear Chief Pennington, who we both know, say that APD didn't take control of the streets, the situation on the ground, until about 9:45.

BROOKS: An hour after Deputy Hall was struck in the heads by Nichols and her gun taken.

HARRIS: What are we to make of that?

BROOKS: Well, that goes into the communications problem. What they need is a mutual aid channel that works, a citywide -- in D.C., we used to call it citywide.

HARRIS: OK.

BROOKS: If there was a chase from one jurisdiction to the other, we could get all jurisdictions on that one channel, do away with all the 10 codes, the police talk, the police jargon, if you will, talk plain English on the radio, because different jurisdictions have different 10 codes.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: Ten-four, everybody knows what that is. But there's other codes that say things that only cops know about. And there are different ones for different jurisdictions. Plain talk, that's what is needed.

HARRIS: Yes.

And I got to tell you, our producer, Melissa Block (ph), was making the point earlier that it sounds reminiscent of 9/11 and some of the confusion with the firefighters and police not being on the same frequency there as well.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

Well, you would have thought that they had settled back in 1996, when the Olympics were here. And with so many jurisdictions in the metro Atlanta area, they need to have a better communications system between all of them to talk unit to unit, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

HARRIS: So, at the very least, what has to come out of this is a better communications system.

BROOKS: A better communications system, a better incident command system between the different departments. HARRIS: Mike Brooks, appreciate it.

BROOKS: Thank you, Tony.

HARRIS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right, most of you watching this show probably need a day off, right?

HARRIS: You're getting a couple pretty soon. I'm not. It's proof.

PHILLIPS: Are you upset?

HARRIS: Proof that you need to convince your boss of that, Straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

PHILLIPS: Also ahead on LIVE FROM, we're going to take the poll position with NASCAR driver Jeff Burton, as he makes a pit stop here on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: More news across America now.

A scare for Dave Letterman. Police have arrested a Montana man on charges that he was plotting to kidnap the talk show host's year- old son and nanny. Police say they were tipped off by someone the suspect allegedly approached to help him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: What happens in Camelot stays in Camelot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Good advice anywhere you go. Monty Python comes to Broadway 30 years after the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." "SpamAlot" the Broadway version of the comedy, debuted last night in New York City. A star-studded audience, including the five surviving members of the original cast, were on hand for the premiere.

And this is not your ordinary gas station restroom. Wow. The bathroom near Los Angeles is 10 feet wide, has silver columns and marble counters, as you can see, and flowers or something, sconces. As the owner puts it, "I want to show how much I respect my customers." And all we can say is, we hope it's good for his bottom line. Sorry.

PHILLIPS: Oh.

HARRIS: Sorry.

"THE TURNAROUND," it's a new CNN program about helping small businesses grow big. It airs Saturday mornings at 11:00 Eastern.

Here's CNN's Ali Velshi with a preview of tomorrow's show.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Episode two of "THE TURNAROUND" focused on the fitness business. We travel to San Francisco to meet Simon Redmond (ph) and Paul Wade (ph), two young Irish immigrants who own a boxing gym.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just decided, let's go for ourselves. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gym is the result.

VELSHI: But the gym's bottom line was a little flabby. So, to get it back into shape, we introduced Simon and Paul Mark Mastrov. He's the CEO of 24 Hour Fitness, one of the nation's largest health club chains.

MARK MASTROV, CEO AND FOUNDER, 24 HOUR FITNESS: I just fell in love with the business. It was fun. It was exciting. You're helping people. It's all about positive, a lot of energy.

VELSHI: To keep the guys off the mat, Mark had them focus on four things, sharpen their brand recognition, get a better handle on their finances, with a clear profit-and-loss statement, create a budget that will let them take some money out of the business, and write up a shareholder agreement that would spell out each partner's obligations. By the end of day three, Simon and Paul were in much better shape, thanks largely to the help from the team at 24 Hour Fitness.

I'm Ali Velshi. See you next time on "THE TURNAROUND."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: All right, Ali, we're going to be watching.

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

PHILLIPS: Well, he's used to taking the checkered flag, but will NASCAR driver Jeff Burton be taking the oath of office?

HARRIS: Just ahead on LIVE FROM, he slows down long enough to talk to Kyra about his driving ambitions on and off the track.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Fast cars, hard liquor, a diverse crowd, sounds like a party to us, huh, Tony?

HARRIS: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Does it sound like a party to you? Well, to us, it sounds like NASCAR.

And some hot topics to discuss with top NASCAR driver, No. 31, Jeff Burton. I sat down with him yesterday about a driving ambition and the image of racing. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Ashton Kutcher I guess was the honorary starter at the Daytona 500 and said some things to the effect of, I'm a redneck. This is a redneck sport. Here we go. And it didn't make a lot of people really happy. You guys don't listen to that stuff, though, do you?

JEFF BURTON, NASCAR DRIVER: We try not to pay attention to a whole lot of that stuff. That's for sure.

(LAUGHTER)

BURTON: The thing is that this sport does have it original roots in the South. There's no denying that and there should be no shame in that.

But this sport has -- from all types of ways, has become much more diverse than it was. And this is certainly not just a sport that people, you know, just rednecks sit down and watch. It's kids. It's adults. It's all kinds of people.

PHILLIPS: Yes. And I love it when people say, oh, Kyra, you know NASCAR, you gear head, you redneck. I thought oh, no, no, no, no. It's much more diverse than that. And let's talk that.

Let's talk about the diversity angle, because you've been really involved with this and your team is very involved. The race in Mexico, this was interesting, south of the border to get Hispanics interested in NASCAR. Is it working?

BURTON: Oh, I think it's a great concept. I think that going to Mexico is a natural move for NASCAR. It's in our best interests to go to a lot of different places, as many as we can go.

And I think going to Mexico and going to Canada, those two things make a tremendous amount of sense, because there are a lot of race fans in Mexico and in Canada. And we need to get out and reach them, so they can see our sport. The thing that we need to do as a sport is to get it in front of as many people as we can, because the more people that watch it, the more people like it. So, we need to get them watching it and then they will have more -- they will have a tremendous amount of fun.

PHILLIPS: What about diversity among drivers? I know there's been a push lately to get more Hispanic, African-American, female. Is it enough?

BURTON: Well, the effort's enough. The result hasn't yielded enough just yet. And it doesn't need to just be drivers. It needs to be crew members. It needs to be across the board.

For us to be a mainstream sport in America, we need to be a cross-section of America. We need more minorities in our sport. There's a huge effort to bring more minorities in our sport, because it's the right thing to do. But it has to start at the bottom. I mean, we've got to get people in our sport interested in our sport on a local level first. I became a race car driver. The first race I drove was at South Boston Speedway when I was just 16 years old.

PHILLIPS: I thought it was go-carts.

BURTON: Well, the first car race I drove.

(LAUGHTER)

BURTON: I just didn't turn into a NASCAR Cup driver. I had to learn my skills.

So, we have got to do things that we can to create energy and excitement around our sport to give minorities a chance to see it and then to get to the sport on a local level, to get involved, so that everybody can learn the skill to take it to the highest level. That's what we've got to do, is create excitement and energy at the local levels first.

PHILLIPS: OK.

Let's talk sponsorship, liquor ads, big controversy, I guess depending on who you talk to. The Petty family feels very strongly about this. Let's take a listen to what Richard Petty told me not too long ago. And I want to get you to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD PETTY, NASCAR DRIVER: NASCAR is a big family. And then when they turn around and really, you know, got the liquor sponsorship, that to me kind of interferes with the family part of it. So, you know, some of the -- I guess it's good for the guys that don't have sponsors to be able to get them as sponsors, but for the overall health of the sport, I don't see no pluses in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: What do you think?

BURTON: Well, first of all, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Richard Petty and the things he's done for our sport.

But I disagree with him in most of what he said there. It's my opinion that alcohol is out on the shelves. It's not a big secret that you can buy alcohol. I don't think it should be a secret from our children. I think we should talk to our children about alcohol and the responsibility of using it and, when they're not old enough, not to use it at all.

And I think what you'll see -- I really believe that, when the alcohol companies come into our sport -- they've never been allowed before -- they're going to raise the level of awareness. Their marketing campaigns are going to be based on responsible drinking. They're going to be based on doing the right thing.

And that's going to make the beer companies pick up their level of responsibility. You really -- if you compare the responsible message from beer companies vs. liquor companies, the liquor companies really beat the beer companies in the responsible message. And so I think that responsibility with drinking and understanding the dangers of drinking will be brought to another level. There's no secret that you can go to a bar and have a drink, and nor should it be. There shouldn't be any shame in having a drink.

PHILLIPS: No secret that you're having drinks at a NASCAR race either.

BURTON: Exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: Well, we need to talk about what -- the dangers of it. And I think having it out there in the open, there is nothing wrong with that. But we need -- it needs to be done responsibly and it needs to be done the right way. And I think what we've seen so far lives up to those two...

PHILLIPS: Jeff Burton running for Congress next week. I'll be helping you with your campaign.

BURTON: Senate. I want to run for Senate.

PHILLIPS: Oh, Senate. Oops. Sorry about that. Better watch myself.

BURTON: It's OK.

PHILLIPS: All right, big race this weekend. You ready? You excited? What's new for you since we talked last year before this race?

BURTON: Oh, a lot of news since we talked last year. I'm driving for Richard Childress Racing, with Cingular Wireless as a sponsor. That's really been a great thing. It's been lot of fun working with Richard and all the guys with Team Cingular.

Last year, we were working for the sponsor, and now we got the best sponsor in the sport. So, that's a big change of fortune. This week, we got a brand new car that just came out of the wind tunnel at 4:00 in the morning. So, a lot of people working.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: Nothing like coming out of the wind tunnel at 4:00 in the morning.

BURTON: Oh, yes. A lot of people working really hard, so a lot of really good things. We're really excited about what is going on.

All right, we'll be watching. Jeff Burton, AKA future senator, NASCAR driver, he's going to win this weekend. So he says. We'll be watching.

Thanks.

BURTON: That's right. Sounds good.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Good guy. If you don't like him, something's wrong with you, huh?

PHILLIPS: That's right. He is. He is a good guy and a good driver, too.

That wraps it up for us here on LIVE FROM.

HARRIS: Have a good weekend.

PHILLIPS: Thank you. You, too.

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