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Live From...
Battle Over Schiavo
Aired March 24, 2005 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is in the agonizing position of dying of thirst. She's on fire while politicians fiddle. This is reprehensible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE FEROS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Terri is peaceful. She's resting comfortably. She's dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: They do agree on one thing, that the end is near for Terri Schiavo. But the fighting over her isn't. We're live with today's developments in the case.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Some activist anger is now directed at a pair of brothers with the last name of Bush. What the president has to say about it all live from Crawford.
PHILLIPS: Quick, what do "American Idol" and Whitney Houston have in common? Well, besides singing, of course. Find out in our entertainment headlines.
O'BRIEN: The worst thing about having a bear of an appetite, you ask? Running out of food, of course. The giants of the north are losing access to their favorite snacks. Now they want some of yours.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
With one defeat already today, Terri Schiavo's parents are pinning their hopes on a Florida judge to keep their daughter alive. The U.S. Supreme Court turned them down this morning. Now there's one more appeal on the table.
At the hospice, where the brain-damaged woman is in her seventh day without nutrients, emotions continue to run high. Right now, Florida Judge George Greer presumably is considering Governor Bush's request to take custody of Terri Schiavo.
While we're waiting for a ruling, let's go back to national correspondent Bob Franken in Pinellas Park -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There have been a series of court cases involving Judge Greer today. And in all of those, he has ruled against the Schindler family, the blood relatives of Terri Schindler, who are desperately trying to get the feed be tube reconnected, the one that he ordered disconnected last Friday.
Apparently the last remaining one is a hearing on the information that was provided by Dr. William Cheshire, a neurologist, who has claimed that he believes that the diagnosis of persistent vegetative state may not be accurate. He is basing it, however, on a very brief look at Terri Schiavo in the hospice and his analysis of the videotapes.
Now, all of this is about an effort by the state administration to take custody of Terri Schiavo. And every other legal move that has tried to get that to happen, on the instructions of Governor Jeb Bush, have been thwarted by Judge Greer.
The family members are saying that, while they have not lost hope, they're obviously clearly disappointed between the lack of success at the state court level and the obvious big story of the day, their lack of success when the Supreme Court did not put out an emergency order similar to what the lower courts had done, has left them with very few avenues.
For the most part, what we're hearing now is that the activists who are here are saying to Governor Bush, never mind what the courts do, please take custody of her. And, of course, that would raise a variety of constitutional issues. And one of the activists said on CNN, "If there's a constitutional crisis, so be it."
Meanwhile, inside the peace of the hospice Terri Schiavo is now six days into her existence without the -- without the feeding tube connected -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. So Bob, just quickly, to make clear, because there's been a number of decisions pending, three decisions, I guess, at the hands of Judge Greer, just tell me the final one that we are waiting on right now. Because I'm getting so many different pieces of information. I want to hear it from you.
FRANKEN: OK. Dr. William Cheshire, remember that name?
PHILLIPS: Yes, the neurologist.
FRANKEN: Yes, right. Is this evidence that would, in fact, change anything? The judge is considering whether this is something that requires an analysis hearing. He's going to rule on that.
PHILLIPS: Perfect. Bob Franken, thank you so much -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: President Bush is following developments in the Terri Schiavo case from his ranch in Crawford, Texas. CNN senior White House correspondent John King traveling with the president joining us live -- John. JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Miles, as the attention focuses, as Bob Franken just noted, on Governor Jeb Bush, President Bush, the governor's brother, of course, here in Crawford, Texas, described by aides as saddened by this decision of the Supreme Court not to intervene, but also described by aides as still in the position he was in yesterday, when Mr. Bush said it was his view all federal options had been exhausted, and there was nothing else that the White House could do if the legal system does not intervene to save the life of Terri Schiavo.
Now, White House deputy press secretary Dana Perino just a short time ago giving a statement to reporters here in Crawford. She said, "The president is saddened by the latest ruling. When there is a complex case such as this and serious questions have been raised, the president believes we ought to err on the side of life. This is an extraordinary case, and the president will continue to stand on the side of defending life."
So the president, at the end of that statement, offering his moral support, if you will, for those who are still trying to fight this case in the courts. But again, officials saying the president believes there are no more federal options.
He believes he did the right thing in signing that extraordinary piece of legislation that tried to shift this case into the federal courts. But again, Miles, the president described as saddened the Supreme Court and the lower federal courts did not agree and did not intervene. And as the president waits here in Texas, we are told there is no official word as to whether he has spoken to his brother in the last 24 hours. Mr. Bush said yesterday he had not spoken to his brother, Jeb, about any other options, the dwindling list of options available in this case -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: John King, thanks very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: As you know, we've been waiting for a final decision on a number of decisions that have been before a Florida judge as a list-ditch effort to keep Terri Schiavo alive. Let's go straight to the phones. David Cardwell, one of our attorneys you know well that we use in situations like this.
Understanding now, David, that -- -- David? Yes. David, you're with us, right?
DAVID CARDWELL, ATTORNEY: Yes, I'm here.
PHILLIPS: OK. Sorry. I wanted to make sure that we could hear each other.
Now the judge denying the state's request to hear the medical evidence on Schiavo. Are we talking about Dr. Cheshire's medical evaluation, the neurologist from the Mayo Clinic, that we've been talking about?
CARDWELL: Yes. And what this does, it sets up really for two things to occur now. Either the state appeals from Judge Greer's ruling, or the state refuses to recognize the ruling and goes ahead and tries to take custody, which would create possibly a physical confrontation.
PHILLIPS: So it's still possible that Terri Schiavo may leave that hospice, that she may be -- that the family and children -- the Department of Family and Children there in Florida might still be able to come in and take custody of her, is that what you're telling me?
CARDWELL: Yes. Under our intervention statute, it says they can go in and take custody for 24 hours, and that can also extend over a weekend or a holiday.
They went to the court first. Typically under that statute you go in and do the intervention first, and then you petition the court within 24 hours. The question now is whether DCF and the governor determine that they think they have the authority to go in and take custody regardless of the court ruling or whether they need to appeal the ruling.
PHILLIPS: So it's amazing how this continues to keep going back and forth. Is it because there are still another -- a number of loopholes that attorneys are finding in legislation and paperwork in process to keep this fight going on? Is that how this back and forth is able to continue, David?
CARDWELL: Well, I think we're finding that as we go through this process, that because there's such a divergence of opinion among many of the medical and legal experts, that there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. And we do have doctors that are now coming in such as the one that the governor reported on yesterday at his press conference who have looked at videotape and are coming to differing conclusions.
And so there is an opportunity for this to continue. Though now it's up to the state. I think the Schindler family has exhausted their legal remedy. It's now up to the state through the Department of Children and Families of the governor to see if they can get the to agree that they can go in and take custody.
PHILLIPS: Now, what has to be proven at this point? It has to be -- doesn't it have -- there has to be existing proof that she -- that Terri Schiavo has been abused or neglected or somehow exploited in order for this custody to take place, right, this intervention, as you say?
CARDWELL: Yes. It says in the intervention statute that the vulnerable adult, as it's defined, is suffering from abuse or neglect that presents a risk of death or serious physical injury. And that the vulnerable adult lacks the capacity for emergency protective services. And that's when the DCF steps in for that 24-hour custody and to then petition the court for other remedies or for DCF to keep custody.
PHILLIPS: So allegations of abuse and neglect could be looked at not allowing her to have this feeding tube?
CARDWELL: That would be that, and whether or not she's been deprived of some other rights that she may have as a disabled person.
PHILLIPS: David Cardwell, one of our regular attorneys helping us sort all this out as the -- David, thank you so much.
As you see a number of decisions coming in at this time out of Florida regarding the Terri Schiavo case, we'll continue to try to make sense of them all and bring it to you as it happens.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken has been outside the hospice there in Pinellas Park, holding vigil, along with protesters on both sides of this issue.
Bob, what's the feeling there?
FRANKEN: Well, the feeling, of course, has been one of continuing disappointment. On this hearing -- this ruling that just came down, you might remember a few moments ago Kyra and I were talking about the one remaining issue, which was whether the opinions of Dr. William Cheshire, a neurologist, in which he said that Terri Schiavo was not in the advanced state of brain decline, that others had said, whether that would mean there could be a new hearing on whether the state should take over custody. The judge has just ruled no, that the state does not have any grounds to take over custody. There was an order which forbids the state from doing so, that the evidence provided by Dr. Cheshire does not change things.
Now, Dr. Cheshire is somebody who is very, very closely involved to the so-called right to life movement. And he was basing his diagnosis on just a cursory examination, a very brief time spent with Terri Schiavo in the hospital, and with an extensive look at videotapes.
The judge did not consider that persuasive enough to change any rulings. So, once again, the family has suffered another setback. It looks like at the moment, there are no other legal approaches, but when it comes to the law and when it comes to this matter, as we all know, Miles, never say never.
O'BRIEN: That is for sure, Bob. Certainly every avenue over this legal saga which, of course, now is seven years in the making. 1998 is when Michael Schiavo first petitioned the state to remove the artificial means of support, life support, for his wife, now estranged.
Tell me, Bob, as far as visitors today, who is getting inside that room? Who is with Terri Schiavo as she really fades away?
FRANKEN: Well, Michael Schiavo, we're told, is inside now. Michael Schiavo is her husband, the one who is trying so -- who has tried so long to get the tube disconnected. He is reportedly in the hospice now. We're not able to confirm that, because he goes in and out of sight out of our cameras, out our sight.
Family members from the other sight of this bitter dispute, the Schindler family -- this is the siblings and patients of Terri Schiavo -- are not going in now. They're complaining a little bit that they haven't been allowed in for an extended period of time.
What has happened is that Schiavo, Michael Schiavo, who is the guardian and controls this, has insisted that they not be there at the same time for the obvious reason of not wanting an awkward encounter. So the other family has to wait until he's gone.
O'BRIEN: So who, then, arbitrates all that time in these final moments what is, after all, precious time now?
FRANKEN: Well, Michael Schiavo does, but the Schindler family, siblings, parents, have spent considerable time in there. Unlike Michael Schiavo, they make their entrances inside and outside the hospital very visible.
Of course, they're doing everything they can to raise the public awareness of this, trying to raise the kind of public demand that has resulted in some extraordinary actions, including, of course, the almost unprecedented Palm Sunday session by the Congress which required the federal court hearings which have not proved successful for the Schindlers.
O'BRIEN: All right. Bob Franken is there in Pinellas Park. I suspect we will hear from the parents of Terri Schiavo today before too long, or certainly their representatives. And we'll check back with you obviously as the day progresses -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, as Bob said, this is quits a setback for the Schindlers, for Terri Schiavo's parents. And today, the parents of Terri Schiavo lost another bid to have their daughter's feeding tube reattached. This one at the U.S. Supreme Court, and that's where we find out Kathleen Koch, that's been following this side of the story.
And Kathleen, that really wasn't a surprise when the decision came down, seeming that it's already been there, the Supreme Court, three other times, and it got knocked down.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Actually, four other times to be precise, Kyra.
And so certainly the Schindlers knew that this was a long shot. And the expectation upon -- among legal experts was that the court, again, would decide not to intervene, as it did. And that terse one- sentence statement came out this morning at around 10:30. And the justices said they would not consider this appeal.
And the judge's decision now in Florida that basically does say that the Schindlers' legal remedies have been exhausted. There was, indeed, the possibility if that judge had taken action, you know, positive action in that case for the Schindlers, that it might have -- there was actually the possibility that it could have bounced in some form back up here to the Supreme Court. But that now does say apparently all court remedies, all legal and federal remedies have been exhausted -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Kathleen Koch there from the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you -- Miles. O'BRIEN: All right. We're going to take a break. We'll be back with more of our coverage of this after a short word from our sponsors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: A judge in Florida has blocked the state of Florida's efforts to take custody of Terri Schiavo, who is in what appears to be a persistent vegetative state, although that has been some subject of debate as this whole saga has played out over the past few days.
CNN's Bob Franken has been watching things unfold from Pinellas Park, where Terri Schiavo is now on her sixth day absent a feeding tube.
What do we know about her condition right now -- Bob.
FRANKEN: What we're told by family members, and it seems to be consistent with what the medical experts say, she's now showing some signs of lethargy. There's not the animation that they had experienced with her over the years. And that is, what the medical experts say, occurs as the nutrition and hydration are withdrawn.
You'll remember that it's been now six days since the feeding tube that provided that was taken out. And the medical experts say that that takes about two weeks to finally end, and the person passing away.
Much of the bitter dispute has been just how painful this is for her. Many experts say that they go into sort of a sublime state and there is absolutely no reaction whatsoever. Particularly, they continue, somebody in their perception of this persistent vegetative state, there is wide belief in the medical community of what that means is that the lower functions, such as involuntary reflexes, breathing, the like, continue, in fact, offering an illusion that there's more of a higher state there. But in reality, there is no consciousness.
That view is that this is a very merciful way to pass away. Of course, the argument on the other side is that this is a very barbaric thing to do, that she is suffering. In any case, whatever, the symptoms, there is an agreement on the symptoms that she's beginning to show the effects of the withdrawal of the tube.
Now, as for the court action, there was what may be a last-ditch court effort to get the judge who ordered the tube removed, Judge George Greer, to consider the testimony, consider the expert testimony, an affidavit, from a neurologist who is connected with the Mayo Clinic, but also connected with the so-called right to life's (ph) movement -- excuse me, right to life movement, Dr. William Cheshire. He had said that he was not convinced after a cursory look at her in person and a view of the videotapes, that he was not convinced she was in a persistent vegetative state and might respond to treatment.
The judge has just ruled that he has no new evidence that the treatment would improve the quality of her life, to use his words. Therefore, the issue will not be reopened.
And earlier in the day, he had come out with an affirmative order, saying to the governor and his Department of Children and Families, do not take custody. There was a period of time where DCF, as it's called here, had had some agents near this hospice and were making plans to take custody of Terri Schiavo, relying on their belief that the courts had no say in the matter.
But the judge has come out with an order saying don't do it. And at least for now, Governor Bush has not responded to those who are protesting here, saying ignore the court and do it anyway. And nobody is thinking that he will.
It could cause quite a confrontation, even with the local police, who say that they would be responsible for enforcing the judge's order. And it could be, if nobody negotiated, quite a confrontation. But they don't anticipate anything like that -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: That's an interesting prospect right there. Let's just fill viewers in for just a moment, Bob, on the judge involved here.
This very judge, George Greer, was the first one to have this case on his docket, if you will. So he certainly has the full breadth and depth of knowledge about this case.
FRANKEN: He has. And what he has, in effect, decided is that every issue that is being presented to him is really being represented. The ultimate effect of his rulings are, this is nothing new, nothing changes.
Now, what, of course, is remarkable in this is that on Sunday last, Congress insisted that the federal courts who had rejected this case several times get involved. Federal courts did. But their involvement was to refuse to issue an emergency order connecting the tube. And as we saw today, that final refusal came from the U.S. Supreme Court.
The question now is, is there any legal avenue left?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken in Pinellas Park. We'll be keeping you close -- on close standby as events unfold there -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: The Terri Schiavo case has featured mountains of legal papers, reams of expert testimony and countless exchanges among her parents, her husband and activists who have adopted their causes. Yet, as CNN senior analyst Jeff Greenfield explains, maybe nothing speaks more than the videotapes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?
Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a hear surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?
SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.
GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.
SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who when I observe her on videotapes clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.
GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.
GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?
(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.
PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.
They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?
Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.
GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.
GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt. (on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.
Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: As Jeff Greenfield sort of wraps up everything that's happened to this point, and we have told you about the most recent decision by a Florida judge that will not hear the newest arguments on behalf of the Schiavo family, the bottom line is, legally, right now, that feeding tube will not be reinserted into Terri Schiavo, and doctors are saying she's got one to two weeks to live.
We're continuing to follow the latest developments at this point. Legal options becoming exhausted, and the parents' hope of being able to keep their daughter alive is very slim.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
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Aired March 24, 2005 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is in the agonizing position of dying of thirst. She's on fire while politicians fiddle. This is reprehensible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE FEROS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Terri is peaceful. She's resting comfortably. She's dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: They do agree on one thing, that the end is near for Terri Schiavo. But the fighting over her isn't. We're live with today's developments in the case.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Some activist anger is now directed at a pair of brothers with the last name of Bush. What the president has to say about it all live from Crawford.
PHILLIPS: Quick, what do "American Idol" and Whitney Houston have in common? Well, besides singing, of course. Find out in our entertainment headlines.
O'BRIEN: The worst thing about having a bear of an appetite, you ask? Running out of food, of course. The giants of the north are losing access to their favorite snacks. Now they want some of yours.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.
PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
With one defeat already today, Terri Schiavo's parents are pinning their hopes on a Florida judge to keep their daughter alive. The U.S. Supreme Court turned them down this morning. Now there's one more appeal on the table.
At the hospice, where the brain-damaged woman is in her seventh day without nutrients, emotions continue to run high. Right now, Florida Judge George Greer presumably is considering Governor Bush's request to take custody of Terri Schiavo.
While we're waiting for a ruling, let's go back to national correspondent Bob Franken in Pinellas Park -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There have been a series of court cases involving Judge Greer today. And in all of those, he has ruled against the Schindler family, the blood relatives of Terri Schindler, who are desperately trying to get the feed be tube reconnected, the one that he ordered disconnected last Friday.
Apparently the last remaining one is a hearing on the information that was provided by Dr. William Cheshire, a neurologist, who has claimed that he believes that the diagnosis of persistent vegetative state may not be accurate. He is basing it, however, on a very brief look at Terri Schiavo in the hospice and his analysis of the videotapes.
Now, all of this is about an effort by the state administration to take custody of Terri Schiavo. And every other legal move that has tried to get that to happen, on the instructions of Governor Jeb Bush, have been thwarted by Judge Greer.
The family members are saying that, while they have not lost hope, they're obviously clearly disappointed between the lack of success at the state court level and the obvious big story of the day, their lack of success when the Supreme Court did not put out an emergency order similar to what the lower courts had done, has left them with very few avenues.
For the most part, what we're hearing now is that the activists who are here are saying to Governor Bush, never mind what the courts do, please take custody of her. And, of course, that would raise a variety of constitutional issues. And one of the activists said on CNN, "If there's a constitutional crisis, so be it."
Meanwhile, inside the peace of the hospice Terri Schiavo is now six days into her existence without the -- without the feeding tube connected -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. So Bob, just quickly, to make clear, because there's been a number of decisions pending, three decisions, I guess, at the hands of Judge Greer, just tell me the final one that we are waiting on right now. Because I'm getting so many different pieces of information. I want to hear it from you.
FRANKEN: OK. Dr. William Cheshire, remember that name?
PHILLIPS: Yes, the neurologist.
FRANKEN: Yes, right. Is this evidence that would, in fact, change anything? The judge is considering whether this is something that requires an analysis hearing. He's going to rule on that.
PHILLIPS: Perfect. Bob Franken, thank you so much -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: President Bush is following developments in the Terri Schiavo case from his ranch in Crawford, Texas. CNN senior White House correspondent John King traveling with the president joining us live -- John. JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Miles, as the attention focuses, as Bob Franken just noted, on Governor Jeb Bush, President Bush, the governor's brother, of course, here in Crawford, Texas, described by aides as saddened by this decision of the Supreme Court not to intervene, but also described by aides as still in the position he was in yesterday, when Mr. Bush said it was his view all federal options had been exhausted, and there was nothing else that the White House could do if the legal system does not intervene to save the life of Terri Schiavo.
Now, White House deputy press secretary Dana Perino just a short time ago giving a statement to reporters here in Crawford. She said, "The president is saddened by the latest ruling. When there is a complex case such as this and serious questions have been raised, the president believes we ought to err on the side of life. This is an extraordinary case, and the president will continue to stand on the side of defending life."
So the president, at the end of that statement, offering his moral support, if you will, for those who are still trying to fight this case in the courts. But again, officials saying the president believes there are no more federal options.
He believes he did the right thing in signing that extraordinary piece of legislation that tried to shift this case into the federal courts. But again, Miles, the president described as saddened the Supreme Court and the lower federal courts did not agree and did not intervene. And as the president waits here in Texas, we are told there is no official word as to whether he has spoken to his brother in the last 24 hours. Mr. Bush said yesterday he had not spoken to his brother, Jeb, about any other options, the dwindling list of options available in this case -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: John King, thanks very much -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: As you know, we've been waiting for a final decision on a number of decisions that have been before a Florida judge as a list-ditch effort to keep Terri Schiavo alive. Let's go straight to the phones. David Cardwell, one of our attorneys you know well that we use in situations like this.
Understanding now, David, that -- -- David? Yes. David, you're with us, right?
DAVID CARDWELL, ATTORNEY: Yes, I'm here.
PHILLIPS: OK. Sorry. I wanted to make sure that we could hear each other.
Now the judge denying the state's request to hear the medical evidence on Schiavo. Are we talking about Dr. Cheshire's medical evaluation, the neurologist from the Mayo Clinic, that we've been talking about?
CARDWELL: Yes. And what this does, it sets up really for two things to occur now. Either the state appeals from Judge Greer's ruling, or the state refuses to recognize the ruling and goes ahead and tries to take custody, which would create possibly a physical confrontation.
PHILLIPS: So it's still possible that Terri Schiavo may leave that hospice, that she may be -- that the family and children -- the Department of Family and Children there in Florida might still be able to come in and take custody of her, is that what you're telling me?
CARDWELL: Yes. Under our intervention statute, it says they can go in and take custody for 24 hours, and that can also extend over a weekend or a holiday.
They went to the court first. Typically under that statute you go in and do the intervention first, and then you petition the court within 24 hours. The question now is whether DCF and the governor determine that they think they have the authority to go in and take custody regardless of the court ruling or whether they need to appeal the ruling.
PHILLIPS: So it's amazing how this continues to keep going back and forth. Is it because there are still another -- a number of loopholes that attorneys are finding in legislation and paperwork in process to keep this fight going on? Is that how this back and forth is able to continue, David?
CARDWELL: Well, I think we're finding that as we go through this process, that because there's such a divergence of opinion among many of the medical and legal experts, that there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. And we do have doctors that are now coming in such as the one that the governor reported on yesterday at his press conference who have looked at videotape and are coming to differing conclusions.
And so there is an opportunity for this to continue. Though now it's up to the state. I think the Schindler family has exhausted their legal remedy. It's now up to the state through the Department of Children and Families of the governor to see if they can get the to agree that they can go in and take custody.
PHILLIPS: Now, what has to be proven at this point? It has to be -- doesn't it have -- there has to be existing proof that she -- that Terri Schiavo has been abused or neglected or somehow exploited in order for this custody to take place, right, this intervention, as you say?
CARDWELL: Yes. It says in the intervention statute that the vulnerable adult, as it's defined, is suffering from abuse or neglect that presents a risk of death or serious physical injury. And that the vulnerable adult lacks the capacity for emergency protective services. And that's when the DCF steps in for that 24-hour custody and to then petition the court for other remedies or for DCF to keep custody.
PHILLIPS: So allegations of abuse and neglect could be looked at not allowing her to have this feeding tube?
CARDWELL: That would be that, and whether or not she's been deprived of some other rights that she may have as a disabled person.
PHILLIPS: David Cardwell, one of our regular attorneys helping us sort all this out as the -- David, thank you so much.
As you see a number of decisions coming in at this time out of Florida regarding the Terri Schiavo case, we'll continue to try to make sense of them all and bring it to you as it happens.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken has been outside the hospice there in Pinellas Park, holding vigil, along with protesters on both sides of this issue.
Bob, what's the feeling there?
FRANKEN: Well, the feeling, of course, has been one of continuing disappointment. On this hearing -- this ruling that just came down, you might remember a few moments ago Kyra and I were talking about the one remaining issue, which was whether the opinions of Dr. William Cheshire, a neurologist, in which he said that Terri Schiavo was not in the advanced state of brain decline, that others had said, whether that would mean there could be a new hearing on whether the state should take over custody. The judge has just ruled no, that the state does not have any grounds to take over custody. There was an order which forbids the state from doing so, that the evidence provided by Dr. Cheshire does not change things.
Now, Dr. Cheshire is somebody who is very, very closely involved to the so-called right to life movement. And he was basing his diagnosis on just a cursory examination, a very brief time spent with Terri Schiavo in the hospital, and with an extensive look at videotapes.
The judge did not consider that persuasive enough to change any rulings. So, once again, the family has suffered another setback. It looks like at the moment, there are no other legal approaches, but when it comes to the law and when it comes to this matter, as we all know, Miles, never say never.
O'BRIEN: That is for sure, Bob. Certainly every avenue over this legal saga which, of course, now is seven years in the making. 1998 is when Michael Schiavo first petitioned the state to remove the artificial means of support, life support, for his wife, now estranged.
Tell me, Bob, as far as visitors today, who is getting inside that room? Who is with Terri Schiavo as she really fades away?
FRANKEN: Well, Michael Schiavo, we're told, is inside now. Michael Schiavo is her husband, the one who is trying so -- who has tried so long to get the tube disconnected. He is reportedly in the hospice now. We're not able to confirm that, because he goes in and out of sight out of our cameras, out our sight.
Family members from the other sight of this bitter dispute, the Schindler family -- this is the siblings and patients of Terri Schiavo -- are not going in now. They're complaining a little bit that they haven't been allowed in for an extended period of time.
What has happened is that Schiavo, Michael Schiavo, who is the guardian and controls this, has insisted that they not be there at the same time for the obvious reason of not wanting an awkward encounter. So the other family has to wait until he's gone.
O'BRIEN: So who, then, arbitrates all that time in these final moments what is, after all, precious time now?
FRANKEN: Well, Michael Schiavo does, but the Schindler family, siblings, parents, have spent considerable time in there. Unlike Michael Schiavo, they make their entrances inside and outside the hospital very visible.
Of course, they're doing everything they can to raise the public awareness of this, trying to raise the kind of public demand that has resulted in some extraordinary actions, including, of course, the almost unprecedented Palm Sunday session by the Congress which required the federal court hearings which have not proved successful for the Schindlers.
O'BRIEN: All right. Bob Franken is there in Pinellas Park. I suspect we will hear from the parents of Terri Schiavo today before too long, or certainly their representatives. And we'll check back with you obviously as the day progresses -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, as Bob said, this is quits a setback for the Schindlers, for Terri Schiavo's parents. And today, the parents of Terri Schiavo lost another bid to have their daughter's feeding tube reattached. This one at the U.S. Supreme Court, and that's where we find out Kathleen Koch, that's been following this side of the story.
And Kathleen, that really wasn't a surprise when the decision came down, seeming that it's already been there, the Supreme Court, three other times, and it got knocked down.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Actually, four other times to be precise, Kyra.
And so certainly the Schindlers knew that this was a long shot. And the expectation upon -- among legal experts was that the court, again, would decide not to intervene, as it did. And that terse one- sentence statement came out this morning at around 10:30. And the justices said they would not consider this appeal.
And the judge's decision now in Florida that basically does say that the Schindlers' legal remedies have been exhausted. There was, indeed, the possibility if that judge had taken action, you know, positive action in that case for the Schindlers, that it might have -- there was actually the possibility that it could have bounced in some form back up here to the Supreme Court. But that now does say apparently all court remedies, all legal and federal remedies have been exhausted -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Kathleen Koch there from the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you -- Miles. O'BRIEN: All right. We're going to take a break. We'll be back with more of our coverage of this after a short word from our sponsors.
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O'BRIEN: A judge in Florida has blocked the state of Florida's efforts to take custody of Terri Schiavo, who is in what appears to be a persistent vegetative state, although that has been some subject of debate as this whole saga has played out over the past few days.
CNN's Bob Franken has been watching things unfold from Pinellas Park, where Terri Schiavo is now on her sixth day absent a feeding tube.
What do we know about her condition right now -- Bob.
FRANKEN: What we're told by family members, and it seems to be consistent with what the medical experts say, she's now showing some signs of lethargy. There's not the animation that they had experienced with her over the years. And that is, what the medical experts say, occurs as the nutrition and hydration are withdrawn.
You'll remember that it's been now six days since the feeding tube that provided that was taken out. And the medical experts say that that takes about two weeks to finally end, and the person passing away.
Much of the bitter dispute has been just how painful this is for her. Many experts say that they go into sort of a sublime state and there is absolutely no reaction whatsoever. Particularly, they continue, somebody in their perception of this persistent vegetative state, there is wide belief in the medical community of what that means is that the lower functions, such as involuntary reflexes, breathing, the like, continue, in fact, offering an illusion that there's more of a higher state there. But in reality, there is no consciousness.
That view is that this is a very merciful way to pass away. Of course, the argument on the other side is that this is a very barbaric thing to do, that she is suffering. In any case, whatever, the symptoms, there is an agreement on the symptoms that she's beginning to show the effects of the withdrawal of the tube.
Now, as for the court action, there was what may be a last-ditch court effort to get the judge who ordered the tube removed, Judge George Greer, to consider the testimony, consider the expert testimony, an affidavit, from a neurologist who is connected with the Mayo Clinic, but also connected with the so-called right to life's (ph) movement -- excuse me, right to life movement, Dr. William Cheshire. He had said that he was not convinced after a cursory look at her in person and a view of the videotapes, that he was not convinced she was in a persistent vegetative state and might respond to treatment.
The judge has just ruled that he has no new evidence that the treatment would improve the quality of her life, to use his words. Therefore, the issue will not be reopened.
And earlier in the day, he had come out with an affirmative order, saying to the governor and his Department of Children and Families, do not take custody. There was a period of time where DCF, as it's called here, had had some agents near this hospice and were making plans to take custody of Terri Schiavo, relying on their belief that the courts had no say in the matter.
But the judge has come out with an order saying don't do it. And at least for now, Governor Bush has not responded to those who are protesting here, saying ignore the court and do it anyway. And nobody is thinking that he will.
It could cause quite a confrontation, even with the local police, who say that they would be responsible for enforcing the judge's order. And it could be, if nobody negotiated, quite a confrontation. But they don't anticipate anything like that -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: That's an interesting prospect right there. Let's just fill viewers in for just a moment, Bob, on the judge involved here.
This very judge, George Greer, was the first one to have this case on his docket, if you will. So he certainly has the full breadth and depth of knowledge about this case.
FRANKEN: He has. And what he has, in effect, decided is that every issue that is being presented to him is really being represented. The ultimate effect of his rulings are, this is nothing new, nothing changes.
Now, what, of course, is remarkable in this is that on Sunday last, Congress insisted that the federal courts who had rejected this case several times get involved. Federal courts did. But their involvement was to refuse to issue an emergency order connecting the tube. And as we saw today, that final refusal came from the U.S. Supreme Court.
The question now is, is there any legal avenue left?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken in Pinellas Park. We'll be keeping you close -- on close standby as events unfold there -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: The Terri Schiavo case has featured mountains of legal papers, reams of expert testimony and countless exchanges among her parents, her husband and activists who have adopted their causes. Yet, as CNN senior analyst Jeff Greenfield explains, maybe nothing speaks more than the videotapes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?
Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a hear surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?
SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.
GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.
SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who when I observe her on videotapes clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.
GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.
GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?
(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.
PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.
They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?
Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.
GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.
GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt. (on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.
Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: As Jeff Greenfield sort of wraps up everything that's happened to this point, and we have told you about the most recent decision by a Florida judge that will not hear the newest arguments on behalf of the Schiavo family, the bottom line is, legally, right now, that feeding tube will not be reinserted into Terri Schiavo, and doctors are saying she's got one to two weeks to live.
We're continuing to follow the latest developments at this point. Legal options becoming exhausted, and the parents' hope of being able to keep their daughter alive is very slim.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
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