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Citizens Evacuate as Massive Earthquake Strikes Sumatra; Judge to Allow Prior Allegations in Michael Jackson Trial
Aired March 28, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: ... coverage of this 8.2 magnitude earthquake along that same apparent fault line that we saw rupture on December 26 of 2004. A massive earthquake off the coast of Indonesia today, sparking the same kind of fear and what we witnessed that time around, a tsunami.
The magnitude 8.2 quake struck near Sumatra island less than two hours ago, close to where another huge earthquake triggered that tsunami last December. Thousands of people killed. As you look at some of the first video we've received in, and I'm not precisely sure where this video is coming from. Maybe we can get a little help from the control room on that.
Scientists fear this quake could cause another disaster. They're urging local governments to take immediate action. Thailand has already issued a warning for its six southern provinces, already devastated, of course, by last year's tsunami.
If there's anything that can be said about last year's tsunami is it has attuned people to the risks, and we are hearing numerous reports of people fleeing to high ground. So perhaps therein lies some good news in the wake of what appears to be an aftershock of that December 26 earthquake.
BETTY NGUYEN, CO-HOST: And that's the video that you're looking at right now from Thailand of people evacuating, preparing for a possible tsunami to hit that area. Of course, we do not know exactly if a tsunami is headed directly there, specifically, but of course, that magnitude 8.2 quake did erupt around 11 Eastern Time. We are continuing to follow all of this and all the possibly affected areas.
Right now we want to go to CNN's Andrea Koppel at the State Department for some reaction on this quake.
Andrea, what do you know so far?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, I spoke with a couple of State Department officials who told CNN, you know, so often when there are these natural catastrophes that hit overseas, you just assume that the State Department is going to have the answers. Well, just like everyone else, they're trying to work the phones.
And in fact, one official told me that a senior U.S. diplomat who actually lives in northern Sumatra where the quake struck, he is in his car right now, driving around northern Sumatra, trying to see for himself and to assess the damages so that he can then call back here to the State Department to notify the U.S. government and give them a sense as to what kind of damage there is, what kind of aid the U.S. might be able to offer the Indonesian government.
And in addition, the State Department official said they had to wake up U.S. diplomats in the capital of Indonesia in Jakarta, which is thousands of miles away from where the quake struck, to get them to start working the phones locally to talk with local officials in the Indonesian government, again to see what, if anything, the U.S. can do to help.
As you know, the U.S. was extremely helpful during -- in the wake of last December's tsunami offering hundreds of millions in aid. In fact, just last month President Bush had a budget supplemental which he asked for over $700 million to try to help not only tsunami aid, but also reconstruction in Indonesia.
And the Bush administration has also asked Congress for over $15 million to try to get an early warning system in place, because in the wake of last year's tsunami, one of the things that came out of that was that, if only there had been a better early warning system in place, they might have been able to get word out to all of those villages and to all of those citizens and American tourists and international tourists so that they could have gone to higher ground in time.
So right now, Betty, the U.S. government has one senior official in northern Sumatra who is trying, on the ground right now, driving around himself, to see what the damage is there -- Betty.
NGUYEN: And we are looking at some new video that is just coming in to CNN from Thailand of the evacuations there. As we wonder what kind of warning system is in place, how are people being told about this earthquake and the possible tsunamis that could result because of it.
Right now we want to turn it over to Miles O'Brien, who has the latest on the earthquake and how it all erupted.
O'BRIEN: Let's -- let's check in with an expert. The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center is a place we all sadly became very familiar with after December 26. And that particular facility has a ring of sensors all around the Pacific Rim, a so-called ring of fire where a lot of seismic activity is recorded year in and year out.
Dr. Robert Cessaro is at that facility right now and with their capability and sensors there, should have some sense of what has happened along the Indian Ocean.
Doctor Cessaro, can you hear me all right?
DR. ROBERT CESSARO, PACIFIC TSUNAMI WARNING CENTER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: All right. First of all, can you tell us what you recorded there had at your facility?
CESSARO: Only seismic information. O'BRIEN: OK. Tell me the seismic information you recorded.
CESSARO: We -- we had it at a magnitude 8.5 within a few minutes. The location was 2.3 north by 97.1 east. And the earthquake occurred at 16:09 GMT.
O'BRIEN: OK, 16:09. That would be 11:09 in the morning, Eastern Time. That location, not as familiar with how that relates to the epicenter of the December 26 event. Can you tell us how close it would have been?
CESSARO: It's similar, but the epicenter is only the initial rupture, and that is the point that needs to be brought out.
The earlier event was 9.3. We now know that took a long time, because the methods that are used -- excuse me -- are pretty recently derived. This is the largest event that's been recorded on modern instrumentation. And so we're still feeling our way along, so to speak.
This -- I want to point out that this event probably ruptured to the south, and that's a guess. But since the previous event, we now know, ruptured to the north, all of that stretch would have been relieved. And so it's very likely that this event ruptured to the south, which means that any energy that would be generated towards the tsunami would...
O'BRIEN: Doctor Cessaro, I just want to interrupt because we are showing our viewers -- want to make sure our viewers are clear. What we're seeing here is an animation of the previous event on December 26. And what it shows in this case are the waves, in this case literal sea waves, emanating from that epicenter.
I don't know if you can see CNN right now, but you could give us a sense, based on the time frame -- of course we don't know if this generated a tsunami, do we?
CESSARO: No, we do not know that yet.
O'BRIEN: All right. Should we presume it to have created a tsunami, or not?
CESSARO: I think we should presume that. I think it's very likely that it produced a tsunami, but we don't have any information about it because we don't have any water level gauges in that area.
But it -- something this size is likely to have produced a tsunami, but because the -- we think the event probably ruptured to the south, the beam of energy, rather than propagating towards the west, towards the central Indian Ocean, may very well have propagated to the south, towards Maritious (ph) and the Rodriques (ph).
O'BRIEN: All right. Doctor Cessaro, once again, can you see CNN from where you are? OK.
CESSARO: Hang on a second. O'BRIEN: All right. Because I'd like you to share with me. I'll bring up a graphic. We're looking at some video which is coming in from Thailand. This is fresh video, obviously the middle of the night there. No indications right now or reports to us that there is some sort of tsunami.
But as you just heard, Dr. Cessaro saying, given the size of this earthquake, 8.5, he recorded -- we've seen reports of 8.2 -- the -- given the size of it, we have to presume there is some sort of tsunami associated with it.
Dr. Cessaro -- I'm being told that we have an update coming right now from the State Department. Is that right?
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT: ... Africa, counsel affairs. Our operation center and secretary staff have all been -- been coordinating on this. We have sent messages to our embassies in the region, asking them to go into the host governments in order to be in a position to get information about casualties so that we can be in a position to respond with -- with assistance, if necessary.
We have been in touch with our consult general in Medan, the area closest to the earthquake. He reported that the earthquake was felt, but has not seen any significant damage at this time.
We have also reached out to NGOs and aid workers in the area, again in an effort to gather information and to be in a position to act, should our assistance be necessary. I think what we've learned from -- we're applying what we've learned from the previous earthquake so that we can be prepared to be responsive quickly and in a meaningful way.
So where we are right now is, having alerted all our posts, been in contact with all our posts, putting ourselves in -- in battle mode to be -- to be in a position where we can act -- we can know what's going on and act appropriately, if and when it's necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tsunami system that's supposed to put in the area, where the U.S. help was concerned, they were saying that it will come soon. That's impossible. I thought that it should have been done by now.
ERELI: As you know, in the wake of the last disaster, there was an international effort, most recently I think discussed in a conference in Tokyo several weeks ago about putting an international tsunami warning system in place. There have been certain steps taken in that regard, but I don't have the technical details for you on where exactly the effort is.
Our Pacific tsunami warning center has -- is monitoring the situation. And, as I said, we are -- we are communicating to our embassies in the affected areas about the event and encouraging them to work closely with host governments and local aid agencies to be -- to be responsive.
O'BRIEN: All right. That was Adam Ereli over at the State Department, briefing reporters there. He mentioned a Pacific tsunami warning center and the consultations they're having with them. With us on the line is someone from that facility, Dr. Robert Cessaro.
Doctor Cessaro, I'm sorry to have interrupted you.
CESSARO: Yes. That's all right.
O'BRIEN: I want to bring up a graphic here and try to give people a sense of where this occurred here. If you look at our keyhole digital graphic. I'm going to put an "x" right in that spot. And that is the location of the epicenter, best as you've told us.
That would mean that, clearly, if we just hold that up for one second -- hold that up, can you? OK. That would mean, obviously, this coast would be in jeopardy very quickly. A tsunami would have been felt there how soon, roughly, if you had the epicenter here? How soon would that tsunami have been felt at this location, at this coast right here, Banda Aceh?
CESSARO: Quickly.
O'BRIEN: Are you there?
CESSARO: Yes. Very quickly.
O'BRIEN: Very quickly.
CESSARO: In a few minutes.
O'BRIEN: In a few minutes. OK. So the fact that we have not heard reports thus far of tsunamis there, what does that lead you to believe?
CESSARO: It's really hard to know.
O'BRIEN: OK. Let's zoom back...
CESSARO: We think again that the rupture probably propagated to the south, which means the energy would have been directed towards the south.
O'BRIEN: And how do you know that? How do you know it's directed toward the south?
CESSARO: We don't know. That's just a guess.
O'BRIEN: Just a guess. If we can zoom back out and show the whole Indian Ocean, please. And once again, keep your eye on that white dot there, that "x." That's the point where the epicenter has been reported. That's where Dr. Cessaro reports it.
Now, when we -- of course, remember back to December 26th. The waves went out literally like this. And eventually, of course, Sri Lanka took a huge brunt and parts of India, as well. What time frame are we talking there?
CESSARO: You mean the time to...
O'BRIEN: The time for waves to propagate all the way across the Indian Ocean?
CESSARO: A few hours. I don't have that information in front of me.
O'BRIEN: OK. But generally speaking, just to underscore the point, if I recall correctly, those waves on December 26 moved in excess, five or 600 miles an hour at some points.
CESSARO: That's right. In deep water, that's about the speed they travel.
O'BRIEN: OK. So if this occurred -- we're talking now right around two hours ago, that the folks in -- at that other side of the Indian Ocean, that other coast, could be in jeopardy right about now. Right?
CESSARO: Pretty soon. But again, we think that the rupture was towards the south, which means that the beam of energy that is the tsunami itself, it's not like dropping a pebble in a pond. It's more like a beam of energy. And that energy, rather than being directed towards the west, towards the Indian Ocean, would be more towards the south.
O'BRIEN: OK. One final point I want to get across to people. The difference between a 9.3 magnitude and an 8.5 or an 8.2, that's a big difference, isn't it?
CESSARO: Yes, it is. In energy, it's about a factor of 20 or 30, depending on what this magnitude actually turns out to be.
O'BRIEN: OK. Of course, there are a lot of other factors, the depth, the type of earthquake and all those sorts of things.
CESSARO: That's right.
O'BRIEN: But nevertheless, while 9.3 and 8.2 may sound like they're close, there's a big difference there.
CESSARO: Yes, there is. And this is a moment magnitude. We no longer use the Richter scale.
O'BRIEN: Yes. OK. Dr. Robert Cessaro with Pacific Tsunami Warning Center, I know you're busy. Thank you for your time.
CESSARO: You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: Betty.
NGUYEN: For those of you just joining us, we are following an earthquake that has struck off the coast of Indonesia. It is an 8.2 earthquake, a very large earthquake, which struck around 11 Eastern Time today. Now we've been speaking with experts to talk about the possibility of whether this will cause tsunamis. And according to the experts that we've spoken with so far, especially on this show, they say, yes, prepare for the possibility of tsunamis.
In fact, this is some video into CNN of Thailand, where six provinces have been evacuated. Thousands of people involved in this. We want to go now to one of -- a correspondent from "The Christian Science Monitor," Tom McCawley. He is in Jakarta with the latest on the situation there.
Are you with us?
TOM MCCAWLEY, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Yes.
NGUYEN: Great. Tell us exactly what happened when this earthquake struck and what the situation is right now.
MCCAWLEY: Well, what I've been hearing over the phone, on radio and on television, is that there have been scattered outbursts of panic and mayhem in Banda Aceh itself, which is the capital of the worst-hit province from the December 26 tsunami. Because, of course, much of the -- many of -- much of the population is still quite traumatized.
They're used to aftershocks. They're used to tremors every second or third day. In fact, what I'm hearing is that this one was so big that many people were awoken from their sleep. And immediately started to drive, bicycle, run, however they could to get to higher ground.
Apart from that, it's very, very limited information at the moment. I mean, the -- most -- most sources of information are, that is, journalists were sleeping or off duty when this happened, so we're all still scrambling to our phones to find to the Internet to find out what's happened at the moment.
NGUYEN: A lot of information out there that, frankly, a lot of people really just haven't heard about at this point, because this, of course, struck in the middle of the night there, near the Banda Aceh area. Now you are in Jakarta. Did you feel any of it?
MCCAWLEY: No, no, I didn't. We are a long way away. I think about 800 miles away from the tsunami. So, no, nothing, no tremors here.
NGUYEN: We have been watching video today of folks in Thailand, six provinces which have been ordered to evacuate. What do you know about the possibility of a tsunami striking? Although we've spoken with experts that say that is very likely. Have you heard any word of one striking any of the areas that could be associated with this earthquake?
MCCAWLEY: No. Quite the opposite, actually. I've heard the police were circulating Banda Aceh, again, the capital of the worst- hit province, about an hour ago, telling people that the waters were calm. Although such warnings, I think, will -- and speaking from a long way away, would have had little effect.
But again, I think an earthquake of that size would be warning enough to the population, which is already very familiar with the sequence of events following an earthquake after the tsunami. So I haven't heard of any warning going out. I imagine the government and government officials are scrambling, like everyone else, to react to this situation.
NGUYEN: A lot of folks affected, obviously, just really working on instinct after that first tsunami hit on December 26. Now you mentioned that the earthquake alone would be enough to alert people. What about the possibility of where these folks will go? Is there any kind of warning system to that effect to tell people, OK, this is what has happened, this is where you need to go, an evacuation plan?
MCCAWLEY: Again, I think not. I think that -- I mean I think a crude evacuation sign would be just to get away. And that did work, because I mean a lot of -- a lot of people on one of the islands close to this -- to today's tsunami, Sumaru (ph) Island, did just that on December the 26. And they were mostly saved.
I think a more urgent question tomorrow would be how much damage has been done. Now again, it's a great relief to hear just how much smaller this quake was in energy and power than the December 26 one. A lot of people aren't aware that 8.5 is much smaller than a 9.1 earthquake.
So -- but I mean that will really be the big question. For communities and areas that are still recovering from the damage of the absolute devastation of the December 26 tsunami, how much damage will be done, how far will it set back recovery efforts.
NGUYEN: Now a lot of questions to be answered today. Tom McCawley with "The Christian Science Monitor," coming to us by phone from Jakarta, thank you for that information.
Miles, what do you know?
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's just bring folks up to date on what has been happening here. Happened a little more than two hours ago, a little after 11 a.m. Eastern Time, little after 1600 GMT, if you keep time that way, what appears to be a significant aftershock of the December 26 quake, which spurred that killer tsunami, this particular quake measuring 8.2, although we heard a little bit of conflicting information from the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center. They say their sensors there measured it at 8.5.
Careful what you do with these numbers. The difference between 8.2 and the in excess of 9 magnitude quake of December 26 can be 20 to 30 times difference. So you have to realize when we say orders of magnitude, that's precisely what we mean when we're talking about this. Big differences as you go up that scale, the original Richter scale, if you will. Orders of magnitude.
These are scenes from Thailand. And that we've been hearing all along is, No. 1, there is obvious concern that there should be tsunamis as a result of this. You have to presume that the tsunamis would exist in this case, because anything above a magnitude 8 is a very significant earthquake, by any standard. It's just that it happens to be smaller than this unprecedented quake of December 26. And you must presume that those tsunamis are out there.
And thus, given the backdrop in this region, people, when they felt the quake, immediately went for high ground. And that, of course, is probably the good news in all of this, is that they are conditioned and know the implications of these earthquakes.
Having said all of this, we've had not a single report of a tsunami developing. As we heard from Doctor -- one of the officials there at Pacific Tsunami Warning Center, he said it's quite possible the waves could have propagated to the south. Not necessarily like dropping a rock in the pond and having the ripples go in all directions, but perhaps more like skipping a stone, where you might get some ripples more in one direction.
In any case, we are just getting reports in, getting video in from the region. As we say, we have no indication for certain that tsunamis have been created. But the experts tell us this is something to watch.
Evacuations have been ordered all along the rim of the Indian Ocean that was affected by this tsunami on December 26. A horrifying flashback for people still living in devastated regions. We are watching it from all parts of the globe for you. Stay with us as our coverage continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Let's bring you up to date. New video coming in from Banda Aceh. Clearly, what you're seeing here is probably the worst effects of this so far, has been the tremendous traffic and the ensuing chaos that has come as a result of the panic in the wake of this 8.2 magnitude quake occurring now little more than two hours ago, very close, perhaps right along that same fault line as that December 26 quake.
I want to just orient you on the map here very quickly. Before we zoom in, take a look at our keyhole graphic here. I want to show you, this is the December 26 quake there. That's the epicenter of it, the one that caused this tremendous tsunami -- excuse me. I got the wrong thing there -- tsunami all across the Indian Ocean and caused tremendous damage right in that area.
This one right here is what happened just about two hours ago. So as you can see, let's zoom in on it a little bit closer. We can give you a little sense of where we are. That's the island of Sumatra to the right there. And those two white rectangles are what you should be focused on.
Once again, December 26, the current one right now. And right here, that is Banda Aceh. So whatever happened in Banda Aceh happened very quickly. Just to recap, we have no reports of a tsunami, but the experts are telling us in a case like this, when you have something above a magnitude 8, you should presume the tsunami will be there. The evacuations ordered all around the Indian Ocean rim -- Betty.
NGUYEN: And of course, we're following that as well as other news, including the Michael Jackson trial. An important ruling has been made. We want to go now to CNN's Ted Rowlands in Santa Maria with the latest on that -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, Judge Melville here made the decision that was argued here this morning, a very important decision for both sides in this case, and that is that he will allow testimony pertaining to prior sexual misconduct allegations against Michael Jackson.
This was a hotly contested motion which was brought by the prosecution. Tom Sneddon, the district attorney here, argued this morning that this information will help illuminate what they say is a pattern of abuse by Michael Jackson. They say that they plan to bring on one alleged victim to tell the court and the jury in person what this individual says happened to him. They also want to talk about four other alleged victims, and to do that, they're going to bring in third-party testimony.
The defense said this was not acceptable. They urged the judge not to allow this in, saying that if you're not going to bring the victims in, it's -- it's unconscionable to bring in people that claim they saw abuse when the actual victims are not being brought on to detail the alleged abuse.
But in the end, judge Rodney Melville said, "Yes, I am going to allow this testimony to happen." The one alleged victim will be allowed to testify. That alleged victim's mother will be allowed to testify. And then there will be seven other witnesses which will testify as third parties, third-party witnesses, to abuse against four other children at the hands of Michael Jackson.
Clearly, this is going to extend the trial significantly. Tom Mesereau, Michael Jackson's attorney, indicated that to the court, that they will vigorously defend each and every one of these allegations, and they will attack the witnesses' credibilities in each and every case, as they testify to this jury.
The defense urged the court not to allow this in, not only because it would extend the trial, but because they said that it would hurt Michael Jackson's chance at a fair trial, that the jury could become confused.
But in the end, the judge agreed with Tom Sneddon, the district attorney here, that this is information that the jury should hear in this case, the child molestation case against Michael Jackson.
Jackson was not in court while this was argued, was not in court when this decision was made. He is expected here in the next few hours for the rest of the day's testimony. We do expect a witness this afternoon, George Lopez, a comedian.
But the big headline here right now, prior allegations will be heard, and this jury deciding Michael Jackson's fate will be able to use that when they come to a decision as to whether he is guilty or innocent in this case -- Betty.
NGUYEN: All right. Ted, stand by, because we want to go to our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin in New York, with the latest on this.
Jeffrey, let me make sure I understand this correctly. The accusers themselves, who settled with Michael Jackson in those cases that were brought in the early '90s, they are not testifying, but third party people are testifying? Is that correct?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's the -- that is what we expect to happen. And I -- what we need to be careful about is whether it's singular or plural accuser. I'm not sure how many that will be allowed. Certainly the main '93 person, the one who is well known to people who follow the case, who settled with Jackson for a lot of money, perhaps as much as $20 million, his story will allow -- be allowed to be told. Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure.
NGUYEN: Because there is that other accuser who brought the case in 1990. Correct?
TOOBIN: There was never anything filed in 1990. No formal -- no legal suit was ever filed in 1990, as I understand it.
O'BRIEN: All right. We want to go back to Ted Rowlands for just a moment. He perhaps has some new information -- Ted.
ROWLANDS: Well, I'll just clarify for you, Betty, what the judge is allowing here. The '93 case, which Jeffrey was alluding to, that will be told in court, but it will be told through third party witnesses. A direct relative, in fact, was named as a witness that will come to testify.
The alleged victim, however, will not be testifying, and that is what the defense was using, trying to preclude this from coming in. They said unless the victim is coming in, we don't believe it's prudent. But the judge disagrees. So that story will be told through third party witnesses.
And then, more striking probably, because of the amount of these allegations, there will be similar stories of four other children. A total of five then will be told through third party witnesses...
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Aired March 28, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: ... coverage of this 8.2 magnitude earthquake along that same apparent fault line that we saw rupture on December 26 of 2004. A massive earthquake off the coast of Indonesia today, sparking the same kind of fear and what we witnessed that time around, a tsunami.
The magnitude 8.2 quake struck near Sumatra island less than two hours ago, close to where another huge earthquake triggered that tsunami last December. Thousands of people killed. As you look at some of the first video we've received in, and I'm not precisely sure where this video is coming from. Maybe we can get a little help from the control room on that.
Scientists fear this quake could cause another disaster. They're urging local governments to take immediate action. Thailand has already issued a warning for its six southern provinces, already devastated, of course, by last year's tsunami.
If there's anything that can be said about last year's tsunami is it has attuned people to the risks, and we are hearing numerous reports of people fleeing to high ground. So perhaps therein lies some good news in the wake of what appears to be an aftershock of that December 26 earthquake.
BETTY NGUYEN, CO-HOST: And that's the video that you're looking at right now from Thailand of people evacuating, preparing for a possible tsunami to hit that area. Of course, we do not know exactly if a tsunami is headed directly there, specifically, but of course, that magnitude 8.2 quake did erupt around 11 Eastern Time. We are continuing to follow all of this and all the possibly affected areas.
Right now we want to go to CNN's Andrea Koppel at the State Department for some reaction on this quake.
Andrea, what do you know so far?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, I spoke with a couple of State Department officials who told CNN, you know, so often when there are these natural catastrophes that hit overseas, you just assume that the State Department is going to have the answers. Well, just like everyone else, they're trying to work the phones.
And in fact, one official told me that a senior U.S. diplomat who actually lives in northern Sumatra where the quake struck, he is in his car right now, driving around northern Sumatra, trying to see for himself and to assess the damages so that he can then call back here to the State Department to notify the U.S. government and give them a sense as to what kind of damage there is, what kind of aid the U.S. might be able to offer the Indonesian government.
And in addition, the State Department official said they had to wake up U.S. diplomats in the capital of Indonesia in Jakarta, which is thousands of miles away from where the quake struck, to get them to start working the phones locally to talk with local officials in the Indonesian government, again to see what, if anything, the U.S. can do to help.
As you know, the U.S. was extremely helpful during -- in the wake of last December's tsunami offering hundreds of millions in aid. In fact, just last month President Bush had a budget supplemental which he asked for over $700 million to try to help not only tsunami aid, but also reconstruction in Indonesia.
And the Bush administration has also asked Congress for over $15 million to try to get an early warning system in place, because in the wake of last year's tsunami, one of the things that came out of that was that, if only there had been a better early warning system in place, they might have been able to get word out to all of those villages and to all of those citizens and American tourists and international tourists so that they could have gone to higher ground in time.
So right now, Betty, the U.S. government has one senior official in northern Sumatra who is trying, on the ground right now, driving around himself, to see what the damage is there -- Betty.
NGUYEN: And we are looking at some new video that is just coming in to CNN from Thailand of the evacuations there. As we wonder what kind of warning system is in place, how are people being told about this earthquake and the possible tsunamis that could result because of it.
Right now we want to turn it over to Miles O'Brien, who has the latest on the earthquake and how it all erupted.
O'BRIEN: Let's -- let's check in with an expert. The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center is a place we all sadly became very familiar with after December 26. And that particular facility has a ring of sensors all around the Pacific Rim, a so-called ring of fire where a lot of seismic activity is recorded year in and year out.
Dr. Robert Cessaro is at that facility right now and with their capability and sensors there, should have some sense of what has happened along the Indian Ocean.
Doctor Cessaro, can you hear me all right?
DR. ROBERT CESSARO, PACIFIC TSUNAMI WARNING CENTER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: All right. First of all, can you tell us what you recorded there had at your facility?
CESSARO: Only seismic information. O'BRIEN: OK. Tell me the seismic information you recorded.
CESSARO: We -- we had it at a magnitude 8.5 within a few minutes. The location was 2.3 north by 97.1 east. And the earthquake occurred at 16:09 GMT.
O'BRIEN: OK, 16:09. That would be 11:09 in the morning, Eastern Time. That location, not as familiar with how that relates to the epicenter of the December 26 event. Can you tell us how close it would have been?
CESSARO: It's similar, but the epicenter is only the initial rupture, and that is the point that needs to be brought out.
The earlier event was 9.3. We now know that took a long time, because the methods that are used -- excuse me -- are pretty recently derived. This is the largest event that's been recorded on modern instrumentation. And so we're still feeling our way along, so to speak.
This -- I want to point out that this event probably ruptured to the south, and that's a guess. But since the previous event, we now know, ruptured to the north, all of that stretch would have been relieved. And so it's very likely that this event ruptured to the south, which means that any energy that would be generated towards the tsunami would...
O'BRIEN: Doctor Cessaro, I just want to interrupt because we are showing our viewers -- want to make sure our viewers are clear. What we're seeing here is an animation of the previous event on December 26. And what it shows in this case are the waves, in this case literal sea waves, emanating from that epicenter.
I don't know if you can see CNN right now, but you could give us a sense, based on the time frame -- of course we don't know if this generated a tsunami, do we?
CESSARO: No, we do not know that yet.
O'BRIEN: All right. Should we presume it to have created a tsunami, or not?
CESSARO: I think we should presume that. I think it's very likely that it produced a tsunami, but we don't have any information about it because we don't have any water level gauges in that area.
But it -- something this size is likely to have produced a tsunami, but because the -- we think the event probably ruptured to the south, the beam of energy, rather than propagating towards the west, towards the central Indian Ocean, may very well have propagated to the south, towards Maritious (ph) and the Rodriques (ph).
O'BRIEN: All right. Doctor Cessaro, once again, can you see CNN from where you are? OK.
CESSARO: Hang on a second. O'BRIEN: All right. Because I'd like you to share with me. I'll bring up a graphic. We're looking at some video which is coming in from Thailand. This is fresh video, obviously the middle of the night there. No indications right now or reports to us that there is some sort of tsunami.
But as you just heard, Dr. Cessaro saying, given the size of this earthquake, 8.5, he recorded -- we've seen reports of 8.2 -- the -- given the size of it, we have to presume there is some sort of tsunami associated with it.
Dr. Cessaro -- I'm being told that we have an update coming right now from the State Department. Is that right?
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT: ... Africa, counsel affairs. Our operation center and secretary staff have all been -- been coordinating on this. We have sent messages to our embassies in the region, asking them to go into the host governments in order to be in a position to get information about casualties so that we can be in a position to respond with -- with assistance, if necessary.
We have been in touch with our consult general in Medan, the area closest to the earthquake. He reported that the earthquake was felt, but has not seen any significant damage at this time.
We have also reached out to NGOs and aid workers in the area, again in an effort to gather information and to be in a position to act, should our assistance be necessary. I think what we've learned from -- we're applying what we've learned from the previous earthquake so that we can be prepared to be responsive quickly and in a meaningful way.
So where we are right now is, having alerted all our posts, been in contact with all our posts, putting ourselves in -- in battle mode to be -- to be in a position where we can act -- we can know what's going on and act appropriately, if and when it's necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tsunami system that's supposed to put in the area, where the U.S. help was concerned, they were saying that it will come soon. That's impossible. I thought that it should have been done by now.
ERELI: As you know, in the wake of the last disaster, there was an international effort, most recently I think discussed in a conference in Tokyo several weeks ago about putting an international tsunami warning system in place. There have been certain steps taken in that regard, but I don't have the technical details for you on where exactly the effort is.
Our Pacific tsunami warning center has -- is monitoring the situation. And, as I said, we are -- we are communicating to our embassies in the affected areas about the event and encouraging them to work closely with host governments and local aid agencies to be -- to be responsive.
O'BRIEN: All right. That was Adam Ereli over at the State Department, briefing reporters there. He mentioned a Pacific tsunami warning center and the consultations they're having with them. With us on the line is someone from that facility, Dr. Robert Cessaro.
Doctor Cessaro, I'm sorry to have interrupted you.
CESSARO: Yes. That's all right.
O'BRIEN: I want to bring up a graphic here and try to give people a sense of where this occurred here. If you look at our keyhole digital graphic. I'm going to put an "x" right in that spot. And that is the location of the epicenter, best as you've told us.
That would mean that, clearly, if we just hold that up for one second -- hold that up, can you? OK. That would mean, obviously, this coast would be in jeopardy very quickly. A tsunami would have been felt there how soon, roughly, if you had the epicenter here? How soon would that tsunami have been felt at this location, at this coast right here, Banda Aceh?
CESSARO: Quickly.
O'BRIEN: Are you there?
CESSARO: Yes. Very quickly.
O'BRIEN: Very quickly.
CESSARO: In a few minutes.
O'BRIEN: In a few minutes. OK. So the fact that we have not heard reports thus far of tsunamis there, what does that lead you to believe?
CESSARO: It's really hard to know.
O'BRIEN: OK. Let's zoom back...
CESSARO: We think again that the rupture probably propagated to the south, which means the energy would have been directed towards the south.
O'BRIEN: And how do you know that? How do you know it's directed toward the south?
CESSARO: We don't know. That's just a guess.
O'BRIEN: Just a guess. If we can zoom back out and show the whole Indian Ocean, please. And once again, keep your eye on that white dot there, that "x." That's the point where the epicenter has been reported. That's where Dr. Cessaro reports it.
Now, when we -- of course, remember back to December 26th. The waves went out literally like this. And eventually, of course, Sri Lanka took a huge brunt and parts of India, as well. What time frame are we talking there?
CESSARO: You mean the time to...
O'BRIEN: The time for waves to propagate all the way across the Indian Ocean?
CESSARO: A few hours. I don't have that information in front of me.
O'BRIEN: OK. But generally speaking, just to underscore the point, if I recall correctly, those waves on December 26 moved in excess, five or 600 miles an hour at some points.
CESSARO: That's right. In deep water, that's about the speed they travel.
O'BRIEN: OK. So if this occurred -- we're talking now right around two hours ago, that the folks in -- at that other side of the Indian Ocean, that other coast, could be in jeopardy right about now. Right?
CESSARO: Pretty soon. But again, we think that the rupture was towards the south, which means that the beam of energy that is the tsunami itself, it's not like dropping a pebble in a pond. It's more like a beam of energy. And that energy, rather than being directed towards the west, towards the Indian Ocean, would be more towards the south.
O'BRIEN: OK. One final point I want to get across to people. The difference between a 9.3 magnitude and an 8.5 or an 8.2, that's a big difference, isn't it?
CESSARO: Yes, it is. In energy, it's about a factor of 20 or 30, depending on what this magnitude actually turns out to be.
O'BRIEN: OK. Of course, there are a lot of other factors, the depth, the type of earthquake and all those sorts of things.
CESSARO: That's right.
O'BRIEN: But nevertheless, while 9.3 and 8.2 may sound like they're close, there's a big difference there.
CESSARO: Yes, there is. And this is a moment magnitude. We no longer use the Richter scale.
O'BRIEN: Yes. OK. Dr. Robert Cessaro with Pacific Tsunami Warning Center, I know you're busy. Thank you for your time.
CESSARO: You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: Betty.
NGUYEN: For those of you just joining us, we are following an earthquake that has struck off the coast of Indonesia. It is an 8.2 earthquake, a very large earthquake, which struck around 11 Eastern Time today. Now we've been speaking with experts to talk about the possibility of whether this will cause tsunamis. And according to the experts that we've spoken with so far, especially on this show, they say, yes, prepare for the possibility of tsunamis.
In fact, this is some video into CNN of Thailand, where six provinces have been evacuated. Thousands of people involved in this. We want to go now to one of -- a correspondent from "The Christian Science Monitor," Tom McCawley. He is in Jakarta with the latest on the situation there.
Are you with us?
TOM MCCAWLEY, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Yes.
NGUYEN: Great. Tell us exactly what happened when this earthquake struck and what the situation is right now.
MCCAWLEY: Well, what I've been hearing over the phone, on radio and on television, is that there have been scattered outbursts of panic and mayhem in Banda Aceh itself, which is the capital of the worst-hit province from the December 26 tsunami. Because, of course, much of the -- many of -- much of the population is still quite traumatized.
They're used to aftershocks. They're used to tremors every second or third day. In fact, what I'm hearing is that this one was so big that many people were awoken from their sleep. And immediately started to drive, bicycle, run, however they could to get to higher ground.
Apart from that, it's very, very limited information at the moment. I mean, the -- most -- most sources of information are, that is, journalists were sleeping or off duty when this happened, so we're all still scrambling to our phones to find to the Internet to find out what's happened at the moment.
NGUYEN: A lot of information out there that, frankly, a lot of people really just haven't heard about at this point, because this, of course, struck in the middle of the night there, near the Banda Aceh area. Now you are in Jakarta. Did you feel any of it?
MCCAWLEY: No, no, I didn't. We are a long way away. I think about 800 miles away from the tsunami. So, no, nothing, no tremors here.
NGUYEN: We have been watching video today of folks in Thailand, six provinces which have been ordered to evacuate. What do you know about the possibility of a tsunami striking? Although we've spoken with experts that say that is very likely. Have you heard any word of one striking any of the areas that could be associated with this earthquake?
MCCAWLEY: No. Quite the opposite, actually. I've heard the police were circulating Banda Aceh, again, the capital of the worst- hit province, about an hour ago, telling people that the waters were calm. Although such warnings, I think, will -- and speaking from a long way away, would have had little effect.
But again, I think an earthquake of that size would be warning enough to the population, which is already very familiar with the sequence of events following an earthquake after the tsunami. So I haven't heard of any warning going out. I imagine the government and government officials are scrambling, like everyone else, to react to this situation.
NGUYEN: A lot of folks affected, obviously, just really working on instinct after that first tsunami hit on December 26. Now you mentioned that the earthquake alone would be enough to alert people. What about the possibility of where these folks will go? Is there any kind of warning system to that effect to tell people, OK, this is what has happened, this is where you need to go, an evacuation plan?
MCCAWLEY: Again, I think not. I think that -- I mean I think a crude evacuation sign would be just to get away. And that did work, because I mean a lot of -- a lot of people on one of the islands close to this -- to today's tsunami, Sumaru (ph) Island, did just that on December the 26. And they were mostly saved.
I think a more urgent question tomorrow would be how much damage has been done. Now again, it's a great relief to hear just how much smaller this quake was in energy and power than the December 26 one. A lot of people aren't aware that 8.5 is much smaller than a 9.1 earthquake.
So -- but I mean that will really be the big question. For communities and areas that are still recovering from the damage of the absolute devastation of the December 26 tsunami, how much damage will be done, how far will it set back recovery efforts.
NGUYEN: Now a lot of questions to be answered today. Tom McCawley with "The Christian Science Monitor," coming to us by phone from Jakarta, thank you for that information.
Miles, what do you know?
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's just bring folks up to date on what has been happening here. Happened a little more than two hours ago, a little after 11 a.m. Eastern Time, little after 1600 GMT, if you keep time that way, what appears to be a significant aftershock of the December 26 quake, which spurred that killer tsunami, this particular quake measuring 8.2, although we heard a little bit of conflicting information from the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center. They say their sensors there measured it at 8.5.
Careful what you do with these numbers. The difference between 8.2 and the in excess of 9 magnitude quake of December 26 can be 20 to 30 times difference. So you have to realize when we say orders of magnitude, that's precisely what we mean when we're talking about this. Big differences as you go up that scale, the original Richter scale, if you will. Orders of magnitude.
These are scenes from Thailand. And that we've been hearing all along is, No. 1, there is obvious concern that there should be tsunamis as a result of this. You have to presume that the tsunamis would exist in this case, because anything above a magnitude 8 is a very significant earthquake, by any standard. It's just that it happens to be smaller than this unprecedented quake of December 26. And you must presume that those tsunamis are out there.
And thus, given the backdrop in this region, people, when they felt the quake, immediately went for high ground. And that, of course, is probably the good news in all of this, is that they are conditioned and know the implications of these earthquakes.
Having said all of this, we've had not a single report of a tsunami developing. As we heard from Doctor -- one of the officials there at Pacific Tsunami Warning Center, he said it's quite possible the waves could have propagated to the south. Not necessarily like dropping a rock in the pond and having the ripples go in all directions, but perhaps more like skipping a stone, where you might get some ripples more in one direction.
In any case, we are just getting reports in, getting video in from the region. As we say, we have no indication for certain that tsunamis have been created. But the experts tell us this is something to watch.
Evacuations have been ordered all along the rim of the Indian Ocean that was affected by this tsunami on December 26. A horrifying flashback for people still living in devastated regions. We are watching it from all parts of the globe for you. Stay with us as our coverage continues.
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O'BRIEN: Let's bring you up to date. New video coming in from Banda Aceh. Clearly, what you're seeing here is probably the worst effects of this so far, has been the tremendous traffic and the ensuing chaos that has come as a result of the panic in the wake of this 8.2 magnitude quake occurring now little more than two hours ago, very close, perhaps right along that same fault line as that December 26 quake.
I want to just orient you on the map here very quickly. Before we zoom in, take a look at our keyhole graphic here. I want to show you, this is the December 26 quake there. That's the epicenter of it, the one that caused this tremendous tsunami -- excuse me. I got the wrong thing there -- tsunami all across the Indian Ocean and caused tremendous damage right in that area.
This one right here is what happened just about two hours ago. So as you can see, let's zoom in on it a little bit closer. We can give you a little sense of where we are. That's the island of Sumatra to the right there. And those two white rectangles are what you should be focused on.
Once again, December 26, the current one right now. And right here, that is Banda Aceh. So whatever happened in Banda Aceh happened very quickly. Just to recap, we have no reports of a tsunami, but the experts are telling us in a case like this, when you have something above a magnitude 8, you should presume the tsunami will be there. The evacuations ordered all around the Indian Ocean rim -- Betty.
NGUYEN: And of course, we're following that as well as other news, including the Michael Jackson trial. An important ruling has been made. We want to go now to CNN's Ted Rowlands in Santa Maria with the latest on that -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, Judge Melville here made the decision that was argued here this morning, a very important decision for both sides in this case, and that is that he will allow testimony pertaining to prior sexual misconduct allegations against Michael Jackson.
This was a hotly contested motion which was brought by the prosecution. Tom Sneddon, the district attorney here, argued this morning that this information will help illuminate what they say is a pattern of abuse by Michael Jackson. They say that they plan to bring on one alleged victim to tell the court and the jury in person what this individual says happened to him. They also want to talk about four other alleged victims, and to do that, they're going to bring in third-party testimony.
The defense said this was not acceptable. They urged the judge not to allow this in, saying that if you're not going to bring the victims in, it's -- it's unconscionable to bring in people that claim they saw abuse when the actual victims are not being brought on to detail the alleged abuse.
But in the end, judge Rodney Melville said, "Yes, I am going to allow this testimony to happen." The one alleged victim will be allowed to testify. That alleged victim's mother will be allowed to testify. And then there will be seven other witnesses which will testify as third parties, third-party witnesses, to abuse against four other children at the hands of Michael Jackson.
Clearly, this is going to extend the trial significantly. Tom Mesereau, Michael Jackson's attorney, indicated that to the court, that they will vigorously defend each and every one of these allegations, and they will attack the witnesses' credibilities in each and every case, as they testify to this jury.
The defense urged the court not to allow this in, not only because it would extend the trial, but because they said that it would hurt Michael Jackson's chance at a fair trial, that the jury could become confused.
But in the end, the judge agreed with Tom Sneddon, the district attorney here, that this is information that the jury should hear in this case, the child molestation case against Michael Jackson.
Jackson was not in court while this was argued, was not in court when this decision was made. He is expected here in the next few hours for the rest of the day's testimony. We do expect a witness this afternoon, George Lopez, a comedian.
But the big headline here right now, prior allegations will be heard, and this jury deciding Michael Jackson's fate will be able to use that when they come to a decision as to whether he is guilty or innocent in this case -- Betty.
NGUYEN: All right. Ted, stand by, because we want to go to our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin in New York, with the latest on this.
Jeffrey, let me make sure I understand this correctly. The accusers themselves, who settled with Michael Jackson in those cases that were brought in the early '90s, they are not testifying, but third party people are testifying? Is that correct?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's the -- that is what we expect to happen. And I -- what we need to be careful about is whether it's singular or plural accuser. I'm not sure how many that will be allowed. Certainly the main '93 person, the one who is well known to people who follow the case, who settled with Jackson for a lot of money, perhaps as much as $20 million, his story will allow -- be allowed to be told. Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure.
NGUYEN: Because there is that other accuser who brought the case in 1990. Correct?
TOOBIN: There was never anything filed in 1990. No formal -- no legal suit was ever filed in 1990, as I understand it.
O'BRIEN: All right. We want to go back to Ted Rowlands for just a moment. He perhaps has some new information -- Ted.
ROWLANDS: Well, I'll just clarify for you, Betty, what the judge is allowing here. The '93 case, which Jeffrey was alluding to, that will be told in court, but it will be told through third party witnesses. A direct relative, in fact, was named as a witness that will come to testify.
The alleged victim, however, will not be testifying, and that is what the defense was using, trying to preclude this from coming in. They said unless the victim is coming in, we don't believe it's prudent. But the judge disagrees. So that story will be told through third party witnesses.
And then, more striking probably, because of the amount of these allegations, there will be similar stories of four other children. A total of five then will be told through third party witnesses...
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